GTR Demo impressions

Hi, As the word is now "on the street", I suspect that the GTR "press" demo will be impossible to pull back, even when they pull it from the server. Anyway, doing justice to being a press version, here's my review after a few hours.. Graphics are great! I actually prefer them to the TRD2 demos, even though they are not (yet) so advanced. To me, the TRD2 graphics are too glossy - not realistic. The TRD2 graphics are "in your face", whilst the GTR graphics are just very good for the job. The sound is great - on par with TRD2. There are two cars and one track (SPA) in the demo. As for the physics - very good, but maybe some car setup tweaking is required before a second opinion is given. I suspect that the car setup (as opposed to physics) has been dumbed down for the press! Both cars are set up to understeer, making them quite easy to drive, even in the most realistic mode with all the driver aids disabled. However, as soon as I light up the rear tyres with too much power, it is instant spin city in anything over first gear, regardless of how quick I throw on the opposite lock. To me, this is the most frustrating aspect of driving the default setups. There is no way that I can trail brake into corners, or power slide out. I can't even set up a neutral drift. The only way to drive is smoothly with touch of understeer around the corners, and no sliding on the exits. This gets a bit boring after a while, and doesn't make for the GPL/LFS type of control that I was hoping for. Again, to be fair, I'm no guru at car setups - hopefully someone can help out here with a better setup. Now for some more Pros. The force feedback (on my Momo Force) is absolutely brilliant! It gives me so much more feel for what is happening, quite literally. You notice it the moment you exit the pit garage for the first time, as you feel the engine throbbing. The effects over the ripple strips and sand traps is also totally realistic. The z axis physics are the best I have come across. You can really feel the car get light over crests and bump its way over curbs. The FF also helps here. I didn't notice any tyre wear, or any aspect of the car warming up. For the first couple of laps, I put the understeer (and lack of braking force) down to cold tyres and brakes, but things didnt' seem to change after 20 laps. On the subject of braking - the default setup has braking force set to 100%, but its almost impossible to lock up the brakes, except at a dead crawl. As such, (again noting the default setup), I find that its a very binary sim - mostly full throttle and full brakes all the time - not so great. One last negative - again on the handling. The sim doesn't seem to react to weight transfer very realistically. In order to get around the understeer problem, I deliberately tried to unbalance the car into the slower corners by turning the wrong way for a moment then throwing the car into the corner, but it was still understeering. Even slaloming it in 6th gear on the straight produces mild understeer, or a sudden, uncontrollable spin. In summary - I think the sim is fantastic and has a lot of potential - I can't wait to try again with a decent car setup. Tim

Go into the set-up and remove the traction control and anti-lock braking aids...you won't have a problem with "natural" car control after that. Marc "eppy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8BVkc.6017$[email hidden]... > Hi, > > As the word is now "on the street", I suspect that the GTR "press" demowill > be impossible to pull back, even when they pull it from the server.Anyway, > doing justice to being a press version, here's my review after a fewhours.. > > Graphics are great! I actually prefer them to the TRD2 demos, even though > they are not (yet) so advanced. To me, the TRD2 graphics are too glossy - > not realistic. The TRD2 graphics are "in your face", whilst the GTRgraphics

Quoted text (10 lines)

> are just very good for the job. > > The sound is great - on par with TRD2. > > There are two cars and one track (SPA) in the demo. As for the physics - > very good, but maybe some car setup tweaking is required before a second > opinion is given. I suspect that the car setup (as opposed to physics) has > been dumbed down for the press! Both cars are set up to understeer, making > them quite easy to drive, even in the most realistic mode with all the > driver aids disabled. However, as soon as I light up the rear tyres with

too > much power, it is instant spin city in anything over first gear,regardless > of how quick I throw on the opposite lock. To me, this is the most > frustrating aspect of driving the default setups. There is no way that Ican > trail brake into corners, or power slide out. I can't even set up aneutral > drift. The only way to drive is smoothly with touch of understeer aroundthe > corners, and no sliding on the exits. This gets a bit boring after awhile, > and doesn't make for the GPL/LFS type of control that I was hoping for. > Again, to be fair, I'm no guru at car setups - hopefully someone can help > out here with a better setup. > > Now for some more Pros. The force feedback (on my Momo Force) isabsolutely > brilliant! It gives me so much more feel for what is happening, quite > literally. You notice it the moment you exit the pit garage for the first > time, as you feel the engine throbbing. The effects over the ripple strips > and sand traps is also totally realistic. > > The z axis physics are the best I have come across. You can really feelthe > car get light over crests and bump its way over curbs. The FF also helps > here. > > I didn't notice any tyre wear, or any aspect of the car warming up. Forthe > first couple of laps, I put the understeer (and lack of braking force)down > to cold tyres and brakes, but things didnt' seem to change after 20 laps.On > the subject of braking - the default setup has braking force set to 100%, > but its almost impossible to lock up the brakes, except at a dead crawl.As > such, (again noting the default setup), I find that its a very binarysim - > mostly full throttle and full brakes all the time - not so great. > > One last negative - again on the handling. The sim doesn't seem to reactto > weight transfer very realistically. In order to get around the understeer > problem, I deliberately tried to unbalance the car into the slower corners > by turning the wrong way for a moment then throwing the car into thecorner,

Quoted text (9 lines)

> but it was still understeering. Even slaloming it in 6th gear on the > straight produces mild understeer, or a sudden, uncontrollable spin. > > In summary - I think the sim is fantastic and has a lot of potential - I > can't wait to try again with a decent car setup. > > Tim > >

Thanks for the tip Marc, but I did that before my first drive :-) They are set to "off" there, and also when I go into the 2 pages of car setup... Maybe I'm just used to the LX6 in LFS... Tim "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7wWkc.49901$k%[email hidden]...

Quoted text (18 lines)

> Go into the set-up and remove the traction control and anti-lock braking > aids...you won't have a problem with "natural" car control after that. > > Marc > > > "eppy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:8BVkc.6017$[email hidden]... > > Hi, > > > > As the word is now "on the street", I suspect that the GTR "press" demo > will > > be impossible to pull back, even when they pull it from the server. > Anyway, > > doing justice to being a press version, here's my review after a few > hours.. > > > > Graphics are great! I actually prefer them to the TRD2 demos, even

though > > they are not (yet) so advanced. To me, the TRD2 graphics are tooglossy -

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > not realistic. The TRD2 graphics are "in your face", whilst the GTR > graphics > > are just very good for the job. > > > > The sound is great - on par with TRD2. > > > > There are two cars and one track (SPA) in the demo. As for the physics - > > very good, but maybe some car setup tweaking is required before a second > > opinion is given. I suspect that the car setup (as opposed to physics)

has > > been dumbed down for the press! Both cars are set up to understeer,making

Quoted text (16 lines)

> > them quite easy to drive, even in the most realistic mode with all the > > driver aids disabled. However, as soon as I light up the rear tyres with > too > > much power, it is instant spin city in anything over first gear, > regardless > > of how quick I throw on the opposite lock. To me, this is the most > > frustrating aspect of driving the default setups. There is no way that I > can > > trail brake into corners, or power slide out. I can't even set up a > neutral > > drift. The only way to drive is smoothly with touch of understeer around > the > > corners, and no sliding on the exits. This gets a bit boring after a > while, > > and doesn't make for the GPL/LFS type of control that I was hoping for. > > Again, to be fair, I'm no guru at car setups - hopefully someone can

help > > out here with a better setup. > > > > Now for some more Pros. The force feedback (on my Momo Force) is > absolutely > > brilliant! It gives me so much more feel for what is happening, quite > > literally. You notice it the moment you exit the pit garage for thefirst > > time, as you feel the engine throbbing. The effects over the ripplestrips

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > and sand traps is also totally realistic. > > > > The z axis physics are the best I have come across. You can really feel > the > > car get light over crests and bump its way over curbs. The FF also helps > > here. > > > > I didn't notice any tyre wear, or any aspect of the car warming up. For > the > > first couple of laps, I put the understeer (and lack of braking force) > down > > to cold tyres and brakes, but things didnt' seem to change after 20

laps. > On > > the subject of braking - the default setup has braking force set to100%,

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > but its almost impossible to lock up the brakes, except at a dead crawl. > As > > such, (again noting the default setup), I find that its a very binary > sim - > > mostly full throttle and full brakes all the time - not so great. > > > > One last negative - again on the handling. The sim doesn't seem to react > to > > weight transfer very realistically. In order to get around the

understeer > > problem, I deliberately tried to unbalance the car into the slowercorners

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > by turning the wrong way for a moment then throwing the car into the > corner, > > but it was still understeering. Even slaloming it in 6th gear on the > > straight produces mild understeer, or a sudden, uncontrollable spin. > > > > In summary - I think the sim is fantastic and has a lot of potential - I > > can't wait to try again with a decent car setup. > > > > Tim > > > > > >

I'd like to have more audio feedback from the rear tires. F1C has always been sorely lacking in this dept and GTR seems to suffer also. By the time I realize Im loosing traction in the rear Im usually around already. In NR2003 I can REALLY tell what the rear end is doing just by my rear speakers. Mitch

Same thought here, need more tire sounds feedback EL "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fLYkc.4186$[email hidden]... > I'd like to have more audio feedback from the rear tires. F1C has always > been sorely lacking in this dept and GTR seems to suffer also. By thetime

Quoted text (7 lines)

> I realize Im loosing traction in the rear Im usually around already. In > NR2003 I can REALLY tell what the rear end is doing just by my rear > speakers. > > Mitch > >

> I'd like to have more audio feedback from the rear tires. F1C has always > been sorely lacking in this dept and GTR seems to suffer also. By thetime > I realize Im loosing traction in the rear Im usually around already. In > NR2003 I can REALLY tell what the rear end is doing just by my rear > speakers. You can't hear anything in real life so I guess they were going for realism. The FF tells you everything you need to know in this demo. There's never been a better reason to buy a FF wheel.

We are not in real life, that is why i beleive, tire sound is a must. When you crash do you get hurt? no, then it is unrealistic :-) There is some input has a real driver you get when you are in a race car that you will never get in a sim, and i beleive that is why you need to put some additionnel feature to compensate. EL "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c71n92$hf03m$[email hidden]... > > I'd like to have more audio feedback from the rear tires. F1C hasalways

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > been sorely lacking in this dept and GTR seems to suffer also. By the > time > > I realize Im loosing traction in the rear Im usually around already. In > > NR2003 I can REALLY tell what the rear end is doing just by my rear > > speakers. > > You can't hear anything in real life so I guess they were going for

realism. > The FF tells you everything you need to know in this demo. There's never > been a better reason to buy a FF wheel. > >

Damien Evans <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c71n92$hf03m$[email hidden]... > > I'd like to have more audio feedback from the rear tires. F1C hasalways

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > been sorely lacking in this dept and GTR seems to suffer also. By the > time > > I realize Im loosing traction in the rear Im usually around already. In > > NR2003 I can REALLY tell what the rear end is doing just by my rear > > speakers. > > You can't hear anything in real life so I guess they were going for

realism. > The FF tells you everything you need to know in this demo. There's never > been a better reason to buy a FF wheel. > Lol, yeah, right.....whew. >

My first impression was also on balance quite positive. The graphics are very good. I like the feel of the FF on the curbs. Some areas of improvement are lack of brake lockup even with anti-lock disabled makes it hard to brake at the limit. I get the impression that the brake anti-lock is always on even if you disable it. I agree with the previous comments that the lack of tire noise is a problem as FF by itself is not enough by itself. Also, I second the comment about the lack of effect of running wide onto the grass. You don't seem to loose enough grip in this situation. But all in all a very promising demo and based on it, a title I will definitely pick up when it becomes available. "eppy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:8BVkc.6017$[email hidden]... > Hi, > > As the word is now "on the street", I suspect that the GTR "press" demowill > be impossible to pull back, even when they pull it from the server.Anyway, > doing justice to being a press version, here's my review after a fewhours.. > > Graphics are great! I actually prefer them to the TRD2 demos, even though > they are not (yet) so advanced. To me, the TRD2 graphics are too glossy - > not realistic. The TRD2 graphics are "in your face", whilst the GTRgraphics

Quoted text (10 lines)

> are just very good for the job. > > The sound is great - on par with TRD2. > > There are two cars and one track (SPA) in the demo. As for the physics - > very good, but maybe some car setup tweaking is required before a second > opinion is given. I suspect that the car setup (as opposed to physics) has > been dumbed down for the press! Both cars are set up to understeer, making > them quite easy to drive, even in the most realistic mode with all the > driver aids disabled. However, as soon as I light up the rear tyres with

too > much power, it is instant spin city in anything over first gear,regardless > of how quick I throw on the opposite lock. To me, this is the most > frustrating aspect of driving the default setups. There is no way that Ican > trail brake into corners, or power slide out. I can't even set up aneutral > drift. The only way to drive is smoothly with touch of understeer aroundthe > corners, and no sliding on the exits. This gets a bit boring after awhile, > and doesn't make for the GPL/LFS type of control that I was hoping for. > Again, to be fair, I'm no guru at car setups - hopefully someone can help > out here with a better setup. > > Now for some more Pros. The force feedback (on my Momo Force) isabsolutely > brilliant! It gives me so much more feel for what is happening, quite > literally. You notice it the moment you exit the pit garage for the first > time, as you feel the engine throbbing. The effects over the ripple strips > and sand traps is also totally realistic. > > The z axis physics are the best I have come across. You can really feelthe > car get light over crests and bump its way over curbs. The FF also helps > here. > > I didn't notice any tyre wear, or any aspect of the car warming up. Forthe > first couple of laps, I put the understeer (and lack of braking force)down > to cold tyres and brakes, but things didnt' seem to change after 20 laps.On > the subject of braking - the default setup has braking force set to 100%, > but its almost impossible to lock up the brakes, except at a dead crawl.As > such, (again noting the default setup), I find that its a very binarysim - > mostly full throttle and full brakes all the time - not so great. > > One last negative - again on the handling. The sim doesn't seem to reactto > weight transfer very realistically. In order to get around the understeer > problem, I deliberately tried to unbalance the car into the slower corners > by turning the wrong way for a moment then throwing the car into thecorner,

Quoted text (9 lines)

> but it was still understeering. Even slaloming it in 6th gear on the > straight produces mild understeer, or a sudden, uncontrollable spin. > > In summary - I think the sim is fantastic and has a lot of potential - I > can't wait to try again with a decent car setup. > > Tim > >

> We are not in real life, that is why i beleive, tire sound is a must. When > you crash do you get hurt? no, then it is unrealistic :-) > > There is some input has a real driver you get when you are in a race car > that you will never get in a sim, and i beleive that is why you need toput > some additionnel feature to compensate. You can't win - Simbin included fake tyre squeal sounds in the GTR 2002 mod and a lot of people complained that it was unrealistic because slicks don't sqeal....can't please everybody I guess...Personally, I don't have any problem at all telling what the back end is up to in this demo.

On Sun, 02 May 2004 02:09:15 GMT, "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote: >I'd like to have more audio feedback from the rear tires. F1C has always >been sorely lacking in this dept and GTR seems to suffer also. By the time >I realize Im loosing traction in the rear Im usually around already. In >NR2003 I can REALLY tell what the rear end is doing just by my rear >speakers. I've never had a problem with the tire sound in the F1 titles, but yeah, it's pretty damn hard to tell what the tires are doing in this demo. The only way I can tell I've locked the brakes is by seeing smoke in the rear view mirror (obviously the car handling is a big tip off, but it's nice to know you have the brakes locked before you move the wheel). Jason

"eppy" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:8BVkc.6017$[email hidden]:

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Hi, > > As the word is now "on the street", I suspect that the GTR "press" > demo will be impossible to pull back, even when they pull it from the > server. Anyway, doing justice to being a press version, here's my > review after a few hours.. >

Has anyone peeked at the .plr file? wanna guess what this line does? Doug Temp="1.00000" // Doug's Special Variable :) dave henrie

On Sun, 02 May 2004 00:36:06 -0500, Dave Henrie <[email hidden]> wrote: > Has anyone peeked at the .plr file? wanna guess what this line does? > >Doug Temp="1.00000" // Doug's Special Variable Been wondering what that one does myself. Jason

"Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<c71n92$hf03m$[email hidden]>...

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > I'd like to have more audio feedback from the rear tires. F1C has always > > been sorely lacking in this dept and GTR seems to suffer also. By the > time > > I realize Im loosing traction in the rear Im usually around already. In > > NR2003 I can REALLY tell what the rear end is doing just by my rear > > speakers. > > You can't hear anything in real life so I guess they were going for realism. > The FF tells you everything you need to know in this demo. There's never > been a better reason to buy a FF wheel.

Put it back in your pants.

First, Im not complaining. Suggesting.. We don't have "seat of the pants" feel so the way that best describes what the tires are doing is sound. If people complained about unrealistic sound in GTR02 it was because it was unrealistic not un-needed ;) NR2003 tire sound clearly conveys what the tires are doing. When did slicks stop making a squeal when pushed too hard? Mitch "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c7203d$hconb$[email hidden]... > > You can't win - Simbin included fake tyre squeal sounds in the GTR 2002mod > and a lot of people complained that it was unrealistic because slicksdon't > sqeal....can't please everybody I guess...Personally, I don't have any > problem at all telling what the back end is up to in this demo. > > >

> I've never had a problem with the tire sound in the F1 titles, but > yeah, it's pretty damn hard to tell what the tires are doing in this > demo. The only way I can tell I've locked the brakes is by seeing > smoke in the rear view mirror (obviously the car handling is a big tip > off, but it's nice to know you have the brakes locked before you move > the wheel). Glad I'm not the only one. For now, my biggest clue is when I turn the wheel and nothing happens. On a related note, it seems very difficult to tuck the nose in once it starts sliding. Seems to be more of a tire thing. Don't know if it's that way in rl, but in the demo, massive understeer is a far bigger problem than losing grip at the rear. I tried out semi-pro and noticed it's much less evident. Is this down to the rl tires being fairly unforgiving at the edge or something wonky in the physics (tire or otherwise)? Alan

> When did slicks stop making a squeal when pushed too hard? Quite a while ago. I've been to an F1 race weekend recently and the only cars that had sqealing tyres around the corners were the classic cars and the road cars (exhibition race) The GT, F1 cars only squealed when they had a major spin and even then it wasn't much.

> Glad I'm not the only one. For now, my biggest clue is when I turn the > wheel and nothing happens. On a related note, it seems very difficult to > tuck the nose in once it starts sliding. Seems to be more of a tirething. > Don't know if it's that way in rl, but in the demo, massive understeer isa > far bigger problem than losing grip at the rear. I tried out semi-pro and > noticed it's much less evident. Is this down to the rl tires being fairly > unforgiving at the edge or something wonky in the physics (tire or > otherwise)? Don't forget you can change your setup - default is very understeery

I'm sorry dude, but when real racing, a combination of force, vibration and sounds make you feel how bad you are pushing it. Know understand that the demo is very good, just more tire sounds would be better. EL "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c7203d$hconb$[email hidden]... > > We are not in real life, that is why i beleive, tire sound is a must.When

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > you crash do you get hurt? no, then it is unrealistic :-) > > > > There is some input has a real driver you get when you are in a race car > > that you will never get in a sim, and i beleive that is why you need to > put > > some additionnel feature to compensate. > > You can't win - Simbin included fake tyre squeal sounds in the GTR 2002

mod > and a lot of people complained that it was unrealistic because slicksdon't > sqeal....can't please everybody I guess...Personally, I don't have any > problem at all telling what the back end is up to in this demo. > > >

Am i the only perosn that bounced into every braking area and bpounced round every tight turn? If this is realistic then gtr drivers must feel sick with all the bouncing and jumping around

> Am i the only perosn that bounced into every braking area and bpouncedround > every tight turn? > If this is realistic then gtr drivers must feel sick with all thebouncing > and jumping around If you look a little closer at the demo the info screens have information about every corner on the track. The ruts before the low speed corners are discussed.

"Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c72opo$hkbok$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

>> Am i the only perosn that bounced into every braking area and bpounced > round >> every tight turn? >> If this is realistic then gtr drivers must feel sick with all the > bouncing >> and jumping around > > If you look a little closer at the demo the info screens have information > about every corner on the track. The ruts before the low speed corners > are > discussed. >

Whether they are intentional or not ive never seen a gtr car bouncing round spa before :)

Damien Evans <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c7203d$hconb$[email hidden]... > > We are not in real life, that is why i beleive, tire sound is a must.When

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > you crash do you get hurt? no, then it is unrealistic :-) > > > > There is some input has a real driver you get when you are in a race car > > that you will never get in a sim, and i beleive that is why you need to > put > > some additionnel feature to compensate. > > You can't win - Simbin included fake tyre squeal sounds in the GTR 2002

mod > and a lot of people complained that it was unrealistic because slicksdon't > sqeal....can't please everybody I guess...Personally, I don't have any > problem at all telling what the back end is up to in this demo. > Slicks don't squeal ? Since when ? Heard them squeal plenty at every Nascar race I was at. > >

They squeal when you lose it, they don't squeal when they are still hooked up. I think the issue is that people who play Papy sims a lot have got used to hearing tire squeal *before* they lose it, and they use it to gauge whether they have the car on the edge or not. That's not realistic with modern slicks. Personally I would prefer the realism, esp. in a sim like this. You can tell how close to the edge you are by steering response, you don't need a phony noise to tell you. "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Pg7lc.59$[email hidden]... > > > Slicks don't squeal ? Since when ? Heard them squeal plenty at every > Nascar race I was at.

Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can certainly feel it in the demo. It's a subjective call, but personally I prefer the way it is in the demo. In Papy sims I got used to pushing the car until the tires squeal, then when I started racing karts I had to retrain myself to stop doing that because it was slowing me down. I can handle that unnecessary tire squeal in an arcade game but if a sim is claiming to be realistic then I would prefer that the tire squeal is realistic also. "Eric Leblanc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HM4lc.18770$[email hidden]... > I'm sorry dude, but when real racing, a combination of force, vibrationand

Quoted text (7 lines)

> sounds make you feel how bad you are pushing it. > > Know understand that the demo is very good, just more tire sounds would be > better. > > EL >

Uh, no. They squeal all the time during race, practice, whatever, conditions, at tracks that are applicable(i.e., short tracks, etc.) Sitting trackside, its easily heard. Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > They squeal when you lose it, they don't squeal when they are still hooked > up. I think the issue is that people who play Papy sims a lot have gotused > to hearing tire squeal *before* they lose it, and they use it to gauge > whether they have the car on the edge or not. That's not realistic with > modern slicks. Personally I would prefer the realism, esp. in a sim like > this. You can tell how close to the edge you are by steering response,you

Quoted text (10 lines)

> don't need a phony noise to tell you. > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Pg7lc.59$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Slicks don't squeal ? Since when ? Heard them squeal plenty at every > > Nascar race I was at. > >

Great. And for the many, many sim racers that don't have a ff wheel ? Or I suppose now, the latest wearing your dick on a sleeve mantra will be, "Only real sim racers have ff devices", eh ? Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (18 lines)

> Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can > certainly feel it in the demo. It's a subjective call, but personally I > prefer the way it is in the demo. In Papy sims I got used to pushing the > car until the tires squeal, then when I started racing karts I had to > retrain myself to stop doing that because it was slowing me down. I can > handle that unnecessary tire squeal in an arcade game but if a sim is > claiming to be realistic then I would prefer that the tire squeal is > realistic also. > > > > "Eric Leblanc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:HM4lc.18770$[email hidden]... > > I'm sorry dude, but when real racing, a combination of force, vibration > and > > sounds make you feel how bad you are pushing it. > > > > Know understand that the demo is very good, just more tire sounds would

be > > better. > > > > EL > > > >

As opposed to wearing it on your shoulders... No FF here either and would prefer a bit more tire sound ala Papy, but am not going to be a dick about it. It IS absurdly easy to change, after all. "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:h18lc.62$[email hidden]... > Great. And for the many, many sim racers that don't have a ff wheel ?Or > I suppose now, the latest wearing your dick on a sleeve mantra will be, > "Only real sim racers have ff devices", eh ?

It is very jumpy and incredibly easy to slide, power oversteer, etc. here. Marc "eppy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KhXkc.143$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (22 lines)

> Thanks for the tip Marc, but I did that before my first drive :-) > > They are set to "off" there, and also when I go into the 2 pages of car > setup... > > Maybe I'm just used to the LX6 in LFS... > > Tim > > "Marc Collins" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7wWkc.49901$k%[email hidden]... > > Go into the set-up and remove the traction control and anti-lock braking > > aids...you won't have a problem with "natural" car control after that. > > > > Marc > > > > > > "eppy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:8BVkc.6017$[email hidden]... > > > Hi, > > > > > > As the word is now "on the street", I suspect that the GTR "press"

demo

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > will > > > be impossible to pull back, even when they pull it from the server. > > Anyway, > > > doing justice to being a press version, here's my review after a few > > hours.. > > > > > > Graphics are great! I actually prefer them to the TRD2 demos, even > though > > > they are not (yet) so advanced. To me, the TRD2 graphics are too > glossy - > > > not realistic. The TRD2 graphics are "in your face", whilst the GTR > > graphics > > > are just very good for the job. > > > > > > The sound is great - on par with TRD2. > > > > > > There are two cars and one track (SPA) in the demo. As for the

physics - > > > very good, but maybe some car setup tweaking is required before asecond > > > opinion is given. I suspect that the car setup (as opposed to physics) > has > > > been dumbed down for the press! Both cars are set up to understeer, > making > > > them quite easy to drive, even in the most realistic mode with all the > > > driver aids disabled. However, as soon as I light up the rear tyreswith > > too > > > much power, it is instant spin city in anything over first gear, > > regardless > > > of how quick I throw on the opposite lock. To me, this is the most > > > frustrating aspect of driving the default setups. There is no way thatI > > can > > > trail brake into corners, or power slide out. I can't even set up a > > neutral > > > drift. The only way to drive is smoothly with touch of understeeraround > > the > > > corners, and no sliding on the exits. This gets a bit boring after a > > while, > > > and doesn't make for the GPL/LFS type of control that I was hopingfor.

Quoted text (14 lines)

> > > Again, to be fair, I'm no guru at car setups - hopefully someone can > help > > > out here with a better setup. > > > > > > Now for some more Pros. The force feedback (on my Momo Force) is > > absolutely > > > brilliant! It gives me so much more feel for what is happening, quite > > > literally. You notice it the moment you exit the pit garage for the > first > > > time, as you feel the engine throbbing. The effects over the ripple > strips > > > and sand traps is also totally realistic. > > > > > > The z axis physics are the best I have come across. You can really

feel > > the > > > car get light over crests and bump its way over curbs. The FF alsohelps > > > here. > > > > > > I didn't notice any tyre wear, or any aspect of the car warming up.For

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > the > > > first couple of laps, I put the understeer (and lack of braking force) > > down > > > to cold tyres and brakes, but things didnt' seem to change after 20 > laps. > > On > > > the subject of braking - the default setup has braking force set to > 100%, > > > but its almost impossible to lock up the brakes, except at a dead

crawl. > > As > > > such, (again noting the default setup), I find that its a very binary > > sim - > > > mostly full throttle and full brakes all the time - not so great. > > > > > > One last negative - again on the handling. The sim doesn't seem toreact

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > to > > > weight transfer very realistically. In order to get around the > understeer > > > problem, I deliberately tried to unbalance the car into the slower > corners > > > by turning the wrong way for a moment then throwing the car into the > > corner, > > > but it was still understeering. Even slaloming it in 6th gear on the > > > straight produces mild understeer, or a sudden, uncontrollable spin. > > > > > > In summary - I think the sim is fantastic and has a lot of potential -

I

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > can't wait to try again with a decent car setup. > > > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > > > > >

True. For that matter, I have a momo. Just interesting some of the comments; I can see it comin' <g> Steve Blankenship <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > As opposed to wearing it on your shoulders... > > No FF here either and would prefer a bit more tire sound ala Papy, but am > not going to be a dick about it. It IS absurdly easy to change, afterall.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:h18lc.62$[email hidden]... > > Great. And for the many, many sim racers that don't have a ff wheel ? > Or > > I suppose now, the latest wearing your dick on a sleeve mantra will be, > > "Only real sim racers have ff devices", eh ? > >

All the in car footage Ive seen clearly shows a stiffly sprung cars bounce all over the place. Can barely tell at all from the circuits camera's. Mitch "Dan_Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c72qv6$hafj3$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:c72opo$hkbok$[email hidden]... > >> Am i the only perosn that bounced into every braking area and bpounced > > round > >> every tight turn? > >> If this is realistic then gtr drivers must feel sick with all the > > bouncing > >> and jumping around > > > > If you look a little closer at the demo the info screens have

information > > about every corner on the track. The ruts before the low speed corners > > are > > discussed. > > > Whether they are intentional or not ive never seen a gtr car bouncinground > spa before :) > >

On Sun, 2 May 2004 17:48:59 +1000, "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted text (12 lines)

>> Glad I'm not the only one. For now, my biggest clue is when I turn the >> wheel and nothing happens. On a related note, it seems very difficult to >> tuck the nose in once it starts sliding. Seems to be more of a tire >thing. >> Don't know if it's that way in rl, but in the demo, massive understeer is >a >> far bigger problem than losing grip at the rear. I tried out semi-pro and >> noticed it's much less evident. Is this down to the rl tires being fairly >> unforgiving at the edge or something wonky in the physics (tire or >> otherwise)? > >Don't forget you can change your setup - default is very understeery

Also, for your outlap and your first lap at speed you don't have a great deal of grip. Make sure you're doing at least 2 or 3 laps at speed to give the tires and brakes time to get up to optimum temperature. Even the default setup feels much better after a few laps. Jason

I have that Elise vs. Corvette video at Nurburgring and the engine sound and bounce and whine is so similar its eerie. This game is amazing "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:nL9lc.43750$[email hidden]... > All the in car footage Ive seen clearly shows a stiffly sprung cars bounce > all over the place. Can barely tell at all from the circuits camera's. > > Mitch

Never said anything about FF. Steering response. How far you have to turn the wheel to get a response. Ring a bell? Or do you use a gamepade? "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:h18lc.62$[email hidden]... > Great. And for the many, many sim racers that don't have a ff wheel ?Or > I suppose now, the latest wearing your dick on a sleeve mantra will be, > "Only real sim racers have ff devices", eh ? > >

When I say squeal I am not talking about the loud ripping sound (for lack of a better word) when you get close to the edge, I'm talking about a distinctly louder high-pitched noise. Is that what you are talking about? I went to the Valvoline runoffs last year, sat near a couple of different turns, and except for one or two guys who were clearly pushing too hard, I did not hear a single high pitched tire squeal. And these were all short races, there wasn't a whole lot of reason for the guys to take it easy. Same thing with karts, if you get it to squeal you are pushing it too hard. "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n%7lc.61$[email hidden]... > Uh, no. They squeal all the time during race, practice, whatever, > conditions, at tracks that are applicable(i.e., short tracks, etc.) > Sitting trackside, its easily heard. > >

Yeah, know we gonna have to get a FFB wheel for GTR and keep the TSW for papy. They should simply do like in n2k3 a seperate sound volume for tire sound. If you have a FFB then drop it down :-) EL "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:h18lc.62$[email hidden]... > Great. And for the many, many sim racers that don't have a ff wheel ?Or

Quoted text (9 lines)

> I suppose now, the latest wearing your dick on a sleeve mantra will be, > "Only real sim racers have ff devices", eh ? > > > Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can > > certainly feel it in the demo. It's a subjective call, but personally I > > prefer the way it is in the demo. In Papy sims I got used to pushing

the

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > car until the tires squeal, then when I started racing karts I had to > > retrain myself to stop doing that because it was slowing me down. I can > > handle that unnecessary tire squeal in an arcade game but if a sim is > > claiming to be realistic then I would prefer that the tire squeal is > > realistic also. > > > > > > > > "Eric Leblanc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:HM4lc.18770$[email hidden]... > > > I'm sorry dude, but when real racing, a combination of force,

vibration > > and > > > sounds make you feel how bad you are pushing it. > > > > > > Know understand that the demo is very good, just more tire soundswould

Quoted text (9 lines)

> be > > > better. > > > > > > EL > > > > > > > > >

"Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can certainly feel it in the demo" Feel ? You mean something other than ff ? Btw, whats a gamepade ? If you mean non-ff, fine, but that clue is still a poor substitute. As long as we're playing a game on a flat screen, on a pc, aids like tire squeal have nothing to do with realism. Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Never said anything about FF. Steering response. How far you have toturn

Quoted text (13 lines)

> the wheel to get a response. Ring a bell? Or do you use a gamepade? > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:h18lc.62$[email hidden]... > > Great. And for the many, many sim racers that don't have a ff wheel ? > Or > > I suppose now, the latest wearing your dick on a sleeve mantra will be, > > "Only real sim racers have ff devices", eh ? > > > > > >

Could be(your series examples) I'm talking about Nascar series cars, or for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc. And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal. Cars that also use slicks. Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > When I say squeal I am not talking about the loud ripping sound (for lackof

Quoted text (7 lines)

> a better word) when you get close to the edge, I'm talking about a > distinctly louder high-pitched noise. Is that what you are talking about? > I went to the Valvoline runoffs last year, sat near a couple of different > turns, and except for one or two guys who were clearly pushing too hard, I > did not hear a single high pitched tire squeal. And these were all short > races, there wasn't a whole lot of reason for the guys to take it easy. > Same thing with karts, if you get it to squeal you are pushing it too

hard.

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:n%7lc.61$[email hidden]... > > Uh, no. They squeal all the time during race, practice, whatever, > > conditions, at tracks that are applicable(i.e., short tracks, etc.) > > Sitting trackside, its easily heard. > > > > > >

"Eric Leblanc" wrote: > They should simply do like in n2k3 a seperate sound volume for tire sound. > If you have a FFB then drop it down :-) I don't believe it is as simple as FFB replacing the tyre sound for some people. We adapt to the missing physical sensation through visual and audio cues. Plus of course the force feedback for thsoe with such devices. I am sure it varies but for me the key is visual. The sensation of sliding is provided by visual cues. I could drive without sound for cornering but need it to manage wheelspin and gear changes. FFB has never helped me understand what the car is doing. However, we each adapt in different ways and other's primary cues for car behaviour will be different. Therefore, I find Papy titles provide more feel than ISI ones. Those who's first experiences with sims include FFB may differ greatly. Cheers Tony

"JP" wrote: > "Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can > certainly feel it in the demo" > > Feel ? You mean something other than ff ? Btw, whats a gamepade ? If > you mean non-ff, fine, but that clue is still a poor substitute. The "seat of the pants" feel, which doesn't need FFB to make you feel connected to the simulated vehicle. > As long as we're playing a game on a flat screen, on a pc, aids liketire > squeal have nothing to do with realism. I am not convinced realism is the be all and end all of simulations - as massive a contradiction as it sounds :) I believe there is a black art to convincing the brain of motion similar to a real car devoid of any real physical motion. Without spending a fortune on hydraulics the conveying feel is not simply a matter of keying in real world physics. The feel factor contains some degree of fudging which is the black art IMHO. Cheers Tony

Tony Rickard <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Nfdlc.3402$[email hidden]... > "JP" wrote: > > > "Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can > > certainly feel it in the demo" > > > > Feel ? You mean something other than ff ? Btw, whats a gamepade ?If

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > you mean non-ff, fine, but that clue is still a poor substitute. > > The "seat of the pants" feel, which doesn't need FFB to make you feel > connected to the simulated vehicle. > > > As long as we're playing a game on a flat screen, on a pc, aids like > tire > > squeal have nothing to do with realism. > > I am not convinced realism is the be all and end all of simulations - as > massive a contradiction as it sounds :) > > I believe there is a black art to convincing the brain of motion similar

to > a real car devoid of any real physical motion. Without spending a fortuneon > hydraulics the conveying feel is not simply a matter of keying in realworld > physics. The feel factor contains some degree of fudging which is theblack > art IMHO. > > Cheers > Tony Exactly. Rereading my comment above sounds confusing <g> It was meant to say that tire squeal in a game, whether realisitc or not compared to the real car being simulated, is not a bad thing. > >

I agree it's not a bad thing in a *game*, and I enjoy plenty of light weight driving games too. But Simbin is trying to do an uncompromised sim and in that case I think it is reasonable to use realistic sounds. "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Pgelc.88$[email hidden]... > > > > Exactly. Rereading my comment above sounds confusing <g> It was meantto > say that tire squeal in a game, whether realisitc or not compared to the > real car being simulated, is not a bad thing. > >

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:%Nclc.79$[email hidden]... > "Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can > certainly feel it in the demo" > > Feel ? You mean something other than ff ? Even without FF steering response is as much a feel thing as a visual thing, IMO. You learn to relate a certain resistance force (spring or otherwise) with a certain steering response. When that relationship changes you know you are going over the edge of the tire envelope. > Btw, whats a gamepade ? Cheap shot. An obvious typo. I suppose you never make typos? > As long as we're playing a game on a flat screen, on a pc, aids liketire > squeal have nothing to do with realism. Unless the game you are playing is being touted as a no-compromises sim. Admittedly, as long as they have an arcade mode and driving aids then it would be nice to also make it possible for the user to turn on a tire slip sound as an aid. With all the other cool things they have done that would not be unreasonable. But it should not be the default condition for the hardcore sim mode.

Well, I just tried it a few minutes ago. I must say I'm impressed, both by the graphical detail, sound effects and car response. The only inconvenients I encountered were: a) during install, it requires "at least 150MB" of swap space. This doesn't refer to the maximum size you've assigned to your swap file, but to the additional free sapce on the drive where your swap file is located, and I had noticed it previously in F1C. b) a message saying that my PC was "below the minimum requirements". Unfortunately, I have no idea what the minimum requirements are supposed to be (where does it say?); nevertheless, the game allowed me to play it, and I didn't notice any performance issues. My PC is an Intel Pentium III @ 700MHz, with 512MB RAM (PC-133 DIMMs), an NVidia Geforce2 MX video card with 32MB RAM, and a Philips PSC-706 Acoustic Edge sound card (and don't tell me to upgrade, it's not in my current short-term plans, except for the video card),and everything was stunning. Of course, with a full grid things may be different... or maybe SimBin just thought nobody would attempt to run it with such a configuration and didn't bother testing it. -- __________ ____---____ Marco Antonio Checa Funcke \_________D /-/---_----' Santiago de Surco, Lima, Peru _H__/_/ http://machf.tripod.com '-_____|( remove the "no_me_j." and ".sons.of" parts before replying

Fair enough. But they're all games, call them anything you want. The Papy games, including the latest(and gpl), all have tire squeal, so I don't think theres a requirement for a game to be light weight to have it. Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I agree it's not a bad thing in a *game*, and I enjoy plenty of lightweight

Quoted text (10 lines)

> driving games too. But Simbin is trying to do an uncompromised sim and in > that case I think it is reasonable to use realistic sounds. > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Pgelc.88$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > > Exactly. Rereading my comment above sounds confusing <g> It was

meant

Quoted text (7 lines)

> to > > say that tire squeal in a game, whether realisitc or not compared to the > > real car being simulated, is not a bad thing. > > > > > >

Youre taking this realism thing waaaay to far. There's is absolutely NO WAY to simulate G-forces in my recliner (even FF and hydraulics are merely effects). As such the ONLY way to know whats REALLY going on in our VIRTUAL car is by visual or sound ques. Visual ques can only do so much and dont give the type of feedback required to know when your pushing the tires to the limit. Once youre over the limit yea visual or FF is adequate but then it's too late. It could be a limitation of the underlying game engine which makes all this talk a mute point. If it isn't then at the bare minimum it should be user selectable. If you don't want the sound ques on fine turn it off, but at the least if it's possible I should be able to turn em on without it being called an ARCADE game. Do you turn off the tire sounds in NR2003? Even if you could Id seriously doubt that anyone would as it gives such good feedback as to whats going on with the car. Mitch "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > I agree it's not a bad thing in a *game*, and I enjoy plenty of lightweight > driving games too. But Simbin is trying to do an uncompromised sim and in > that case I think it is reasonable to use realistic sounds. > >

Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (8 lines)

> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:%Nclc.79$[email hidden]... > > "Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can > > certainly feel it in the demo" > > > > Feel ? You mean something other than ff ? > > Even without FF steering response is as much a feel thing as a visual

thing, > IMO. You learn to relate a certain resistance force (spring or otherwise) > with a certain steering response. When that relationship changes you know > you are going over the edge of the tire envelope. Hmm. Been sim racing for 15 years now. Never noticed this without ff. > > > Btw, whats a gamepade ? > > Cheap shot. An obvious typo. I suppose you never make typos? Sure I do. But I was just responding to a cheap shot, with another.

Quoted text (12 lines)

> > > As long as we're playing a game on a flat screen, on a pc, aids like > tire > > squeal have nothing to do with realism. > > Unless the game you are playing is being touted as a no-compromises sim. > > Admittedly, as long as they have an arcade mode and driving aids then it > would be nice to also make it possible for the user to turn on a tire slip > sound as an aid. With all the other cool things they have done that would > not be unreasonable. But it should not be the default condition for the > hardcore sim mode.

Always thought the Papy stuff was arcade, thanks. > > > > >

Exactly. Mitch_A <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fFelc.59248$[email hidden]... > Youre taking this realism thing waaaay to far. There's is absolutely NOWAY > to simulate G-forces in my recliner (even FF and hydraulics are merely > effects). As such the ONLY way to know whats REALLY going on in ourVIRTUAL > car is by visual or sound ques. Visual ques can only do so much and dont > give the type of feedback required to know when your pushing the tires to > the limit. Once youre over the limit yea visual or FF is adequate butthen > it's too late. > > It could be a limitation of the underlying game engine which makes allthis

Quoted text (7 lines)

> talk a mute point. If it isn't then at the bare minimum it should be user > selectable. If you don't want the sound ques on fine turn it off, but at > the least if it's possible I should be able to turn em on without it being > called an ARCADE game. > > Do you turn off the tire sounds in NR2003? Even if you could Id seriously > doubt that anyone would as it gives such good feedback as to whats going

on

Quoted text (10 lines)

> with the car. > > Mitch > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I agree it's not a bad thing in a *game*, and I enjoy plenty of light > weight > > driving games too. But Simbin is trying to do an uncompromised sim and

in > > that case I think it is reasonable to use realistic sounds. > > > > > >

That dinosaur needs a bunch more than a video card ;) "machf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > b) a message saying that my PC was "below the minimum requirements". > Unfortunately, I have no idea what the minimum requirements are supposedto be > (where does it say?); nevertheless, the game allowed me to play it, and Ididn't > notice any performance issues. My PC is an Intel Pentium III @ 700MHz,with > 512MB RAM (PC-133 DIMMs), an NVidia Geforce2 MX video card with 32MB RAM,and a > Philips PSC-706 Acoustic Edge sound card (and don't tell me to upgrade,it's not > in my current short-term plans, except for the video card),and everythingwas > stunning. Of course, with a full grid things may be different... or maybeSimBin > just thought nobody would attempt to run it with such a configuration anddidn't

Quoted text (10 lines)

> bother testing it. > > > -- > __________ ____---____ Marco Antonio Checa Funcke > \_________D /-/---_----' Santiago de Surco, Lima, Peru > _H__/_/ http://machf.tripod.com > '-_____|( > > remove the "no_me_j." and ".sons.of" parts before replying

No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is. As a reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR. Not trying to be a smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per square inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR. Maybe that's the difference, I don't know. I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in the 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealing tires there either. Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they are still slicks and that's primarily the issue. With a production tire you get squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire tread. With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual sliding. That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at any track or from any race broadcast. The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championships for the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year. Every SCCA class is represented there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports racers, sedan and touring cars. Lots of slicks. No tire squeal except for one guy in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was sliding across the transition from concrete to asphalt. "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oQclc.80$[email hidden]... > Could be(your series examples) I'm talking about Nascar series cars, or > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc. > And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal. > > Cars that also use slicks. >

Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that modern slicks don't squeal. In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges. And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and Charlotte in '83 and there was all kinds of squealing. Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is. As a > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR. Not trying to be a > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight persquare > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR. Maybe that's the > difference, I don't know. I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in the > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealingtires > there either. Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they are > still slicks and that's primarily the issue. With a production tire youget

Quoted text (8 lines)

> squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire tread. > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual sliding. > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at any > track or from any race broadcast. > > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championships for > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year. Every SCCA class is represented > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports

racers, > sedan and touring cars. Lots of slicks. No tire squeal except for oneguy > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he wassliding > across the transition from concrete to asphalt. > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:oQclc.80$[email hidden]... > > Could be(your series examples) I'm talking about Nascar series cars,or

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc. > > And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal. > > > > Cars that also use slicks. > > > >

Minimum specs are listed in the readme file

from what i can remember of racing real formula fords, i only ever noticed that the tracks were bumpy on my warm down laps. pez "fredrickson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7aalc.63402$[email hidden]... > I have that Elise vs. Corvette video at Nurburgring and the engine soundand > bounce and whine is so similar its eerie. This game is amazing > > > "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:nL9lc.43750$[email hidden]... > > All the in car footage Ive seen clearly shows a stiffly sprung carsbounce > > all over the place. Can barely tell at all from the circuits camera's. > > > > Mitch > >

In the mid-Sixties, I was sitting by the brook going under Turn 1 at Indy once while Parnelli Jones was practicing in "Silent Sam," the STP turbine car. Without the usual roar of the engine (which was disconcerting enough), the loudest sound came from the creaking of the tub. The bias-ply slicks barely made a "whisk-whisk" noise. Since then, radials have only gotten quieter. "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UWelc.93$[email hidden]... > Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that > modern slicks don't squeal. In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used > bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges. > > And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and Charlotte in'83

Quoted text (11 lines)

> and there was all kinds of squealing. > > > Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is. As a > > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR. Not trying to be a > > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per > square > > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR. Maybe that's the > > difference, I don't know. I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in

the

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealing > tires > > there either. Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they are > > still slicks and that's primarily the issue. With a production tire you > get > > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire tread. > > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual sliding. > > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at

any > > track or from any race broadcast. > > > > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championshipsfor

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year. Every SCCA class is represented > > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports > racers, > > sedan and touring cars. Lots of slicks. No tire squeal except for one > guy > > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it > > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was > sliding > > across the transition from concrete to asphalt. > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:oQclc.80$[email hidden]... > > > Could be(your series examples) I'm talking about Nascar series

cars,

Quoted text (10 lines)

> or > > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc. > > > And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal. > > > > > > Cars that also use slicks. > > > > > > > > >

Since i'm a french canadian and sometime struggle with my english if squeal mean that when you slide, it sounds like you driving your personnal car and making skid, then yes you don't hear that nose in a race car even sliding heavily. What you hear in a race car (a good one and not open type) and feel is like the rubber gripping to the rough surface of the asphalt. Once you get near or past the maximum amount of grip, you can really feel the force applied to that side of the car or tire giving away and that is all mix with sound and vibration. You can really feel the stiffness being hard rather then soft (has you turn forces are applied the shock compression and gets harder, and that hard/soft transition helps you feel you are loosing the grip, you may never be able to add this exact feel to a sim and i think sound should compensate for that. But no they don't "squeal". And the sound (or feel) i'm talking about is the same when breaking. Papy was able to create in the sound that grip feel i'm talking about once you loose that grip in (n2k3) the car start to skid or squeal, i don't know if they do in oval racing but at least there is 2 different sounds, and that is more noticable if you oval drive the game, if you never did, then go in the game put all sounds to 5% and tire sounds to 100%, and go around michigan and push it till you wreck it, you'll understand what i mean. I would say the only first grip feel sound going/fading away could be a good indication you are starting to slide. No need for the extra squeal. Eric L "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UWelc.93$[email hidden]... > Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that > modern slicks don't squeal. In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used > bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges. > > And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and Charlotte in'83

Quoted text (11 lines)

> and there was all kinds of squealing. > > > Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is. As a > > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR. Not trying to be a > > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per > square > > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR. Maybe that's the > > difference, I don't know. I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in

the

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealing > tires > > there either. Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they are > > still slicks and that's primarily the issue. With a production tire you > get > > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire tread. > > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual sliding. > > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at

any > > track or from any race broadcast. > > > > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championshipsfor

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year. Every SCCA class is represented > > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports > racers, > > sedan and touring cars. Lots of slicks. No tire squeal except for one > guy > > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it > > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was > sliding > > across the transition from concrete to asphalt. > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:oQclc.80$[email hidden]... > > > Could be(your series examples) I'm talking about Nascar series

cars,

Quoted text (10 lines)

> or > > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc. > > > And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal. > > > > > > Cars that also use slicks. > > > > > > > > >

<shrug> Again, I'm not talking about those types of cars, which was obvious since my first post on it, let alone on a big oval like Indy, since I also mentioned short tracks, etc. as examples. Steve Smith <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:S5glc.136895$[email hidden]... > In the mid-Sixties, I was sitting by the brook going under Turn 1 at Indy > once while Parnelli Jones was practicing in "Silent Sam," the STP turbine > car. Without the usual roar of the engine (which was disconcertingenough),

Quoted text (27 lines)

> the loudest sound came from the creaking of the tub. The bias-ply slicks > barely made a "whisk-whisk" noise. Since then, radials have only gotten > quieter. > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:UWelc.93$[email hidden]... > > Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that > > modern slicks don't squeal. In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used > > bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges. > > > > And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and Charlotte in > '83 > > and there was all kinds of squealing. > > > > > > Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is. As a > > > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR. Not trying to be a > > > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per > > square > > > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR. Maybe that's the > > > difference, I don't know. I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in > the > > > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealing > > tires > > > there either. Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they

are > > > still slicks and that's primarily the issue. With a production tireyou > > get > > > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tiretread. > > > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actualsliding.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at > any > > > track or from any race broadcast. > > > > > > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championships > for > > > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year. Every SCCA class is

represented > > > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports > > racers, > > > sedan and touring cars. Lots of slicks. No tire squeal except forone

Quoted text (22 lines)

> > guy > > > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it > > > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was > > sliding > > > across the transition from concrete to asphalt. > > > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:oQclc.80$[email hidden]... > > > > Could be(your series examples) I'm talking about Nascar series > cars, > > or > > > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc. > > > > And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal. > > > > > > > > Cars that also use slicks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

I'd agree with that; squeal, whatever, there should be some clue besides visual(which I have yet to believe in the visual examples given in this thread, ie, wheel. To late by then). Eric Leblanc <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qgglc.1770$[email hidden]... > Since i'm a french canadian and sometime struggle with my english ifsqueal > mean that when you slide, it sounds like you driving your personnal carand > making skid, then yes you don't hear that nose in a race car even sliding > heavily. What you hear in a race car (a good one and not open type) andfeel > is like the rubber gripping to the rough surface of the asphalt. Once you > get near or past the maximum amount of grip, you can really feel theforce > applied to that side of the car or tire giving away and that is all mixwith

Quoted text (8 lines)

> sound and vibration. You can really feel the stiffness being hard rather > then soft (has you turn forces are applied the shock compression and gets > harder, and that hard/soft transition helps you feel you are loosing the > grip, you may never be able to add this exact feel to a sim and i think > sound should compensate for that. > > But no they don't "squeal". And the sound (or feel) i'm talking about is > the same when breaking. Papy was able to create in the sound that grip

feel > i'm talking about once you loose that grip in (n2k3) the car start to skid > or squeal, i don't know if they do in oval racing but at least there is 2 > different sounds, and that is more noticable if you oval drive the game,if > you never did, then go in the game put all sounds to 5% and tire sounds to > 100%, and go around michigan and push it till you wreck it, you'll > understand what i mean. > > I would say the only first grip feel sound going/fading away could be agood

Quoted text (29 lines)

> indication you are starting to slide. No need for the extra squeal. > > Eric L > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:UWelc.93$[email hidden]... > > Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that > > modern slicks don't squeal. In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used > > bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges. > > > > And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and Charlotte in > '83 > > and there was all kinds of squealing. > > > > > > Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is. As a > > > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR. Not trying to be a > > > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per > > square > > > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR. Maybe that's the > > > difference, I don't know. I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back in > the > > > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any squealing > > tires > > > there either. Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they

are > > > still slicks and that's primarily the issue. With a production tireyou > > get > > > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tiretread. > > > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actualsliding.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary at > any > > > track or from any race broadcast. > > > > > > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national championships > for > > > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year. Every SCCA class is

represented > > > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports > > racers, > > > sedan and touring cars. Lots of slicks. No tire squeal except forone

Quoted text (22 lines)

> > guy > > > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it > > > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was > > sliding > > > across the transition from concrete to asphalt. > > > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:oQclc.80$[email hidden]... > > > > Could be(your series examples) I'm talking about Nascar series > cars, > > or > > > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc. > > > > And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal. > > > > > > > > Cars that also use slicks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:S5glc.136895$[email hidden]: > In the mid-Sixties, I was sitting by the brook going under Turn 1 at > Indy once while Parnelli Jones was practicing in "Silent Sam," the STP > turbine car. Without the usual roar of the engine (which was > disconcerting enough), the loudest sound came from the creaking of the > tub. The bias-ply slicks barely made a "whisk-whisk" noise. Since > then, radials have only gotten quieter. Whatever year Al Unser Sr and Jr battled at Miami for the Season Championship, the tires were squealing all over the place. Sr came from mid pack to place jussst high enough to nip Jr for the Season win. That was noticable even on Television. dave henrie

You can hear what i'm talking and asking about in the game, its just not loud enough. EL "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:o4hlc.108$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> I'd agree with that; squeal, whatever, there should be some clue besides > visual(which I have yet to believe in the visual examples given in this > thread, ie, wheel. To late by then). > > > Eric Leblanc <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Qgglc.1770$[email hidden]... > > Since i'm a french canadian and sometime struggle with my english if > squeal > > mean that when you slide, it sounds like you driving your personnal car > and > > making skid, then yes you don't hear that nose in a race car even

sliding > > heavily. What you hear in a race car (a good one and not open type) and > feel > > is like the rubber gripping to the rough surface of the asphalt. Onceyou > > get near or past the maximum amount of grip, you can really feel the > force > > applied to that side of the car or tire giving away and that is all mix > with > > sound and vibration. You can really feel the stiffness being hard rather > > then soft (has you turn forces are applied the shock compression andgets > > harder, and that hard/soft transition helps you feel you are loosing the > > grip, you may never be able to add this exact feel to a sim and i think > > sound should compensate for that. > > > > But no they don't "squeal". And the sound (or feel) i'm talking aboutis > > the same when breaking. Papy was able to create in the sound that grip > feel > > i'm talking about once you loose that grip in (n2k3) the car start toskid > > or squeal, i don't know if they do in oval racing but at least there is2 > > different sounds, and that is more noticable if you oval drive the game, > if > > you never did, then go in the game put all sounds to 5% and tire soundsto

Quoted text (18 lines)

> > 100%, and go around michigan and push it till you wreck it, you'll > > understand what i mean. > > > > I would say the only first grip feel sound going/fading away could be a > good > > indication you are starting to slide. No need for the extra squeal. > > > > Eric L > > > > > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:UWelc.93$[email hidden]... > > > Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment that > > > modern slicks don't squeal. In terms of Nascar in the 80's, they used > > > bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges. > > > > > > And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, and Charlotte

in

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > '83 > > > and there was all kinds of squealing. > > > > > > > > > Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is. As

a > > > > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR. Not trying to be a > > > > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weight per > > > square > > > > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR. Maybe that's the > > > > difference, I don't know. I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta backin > > the > > > > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear anysquealing

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > > tires > > > > there either. Tires have probably changed a lot since then but they > are > > > > still slicks and that's primarily the issue. With a production tire > you > > > get > > > > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire > tread. > > > > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual > sliding. > > > > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary

at > > any > > > > track or from any race broadcast. > > > > > > > > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the nationalchampionships

Quoted text (31 lines)

> > for > > > > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year. Every SCCA class is > represented > > > > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT, sports > > > racers, > > > > sedan and touring cars. Lots of slicks. No tire squeal except for > one > > > guy > > > > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite get it > > > > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like he was > > > sliding > > > > across the transition from concrete to asphalt. > > > > > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:oQclc.80$[email hidden]... > > > > > Could be(your series examples) I'm talking about Nascar series > > cars, > > > or > > > > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc. > > > > > And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tire squeal. > > > > > > > > > > Cars that also use slicks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> Youre taking this realism thing waaaay to far. There's is absolutely NOWAY > to simulate G-forces in my recliner (even FF and hydraulics are merely > effects). www.ivibe.com sort of anyway Modules have been slow in coming though, so the jury's still out on how much it can help. Alan

>Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can >certainly feel it in the demo. I can't feel it at all. I'm usually backwards before I realize the car has gotten away from me. I'm not using a FF wheel. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

Quoted text (9 lines)

>I don't believe it is as simple as FFB replacing the tyre sound for some >people. We adapt to the missing physical sensation through visual and audio >cues. Plus of course the force feedback for thsoe with such devices. I am >sure it varies but for me the key is visual. The sensation of sliding is >provided by visual cues. I could drive without sound for cornering but need >it to manage wheelspin and gear changes. FFB has never helped me understand >what the car is doing. However, we each adapt in different ways and other's >primary cues for car behaviour will be different. >

That would make a *great* Psych 101 experiment. Some guys get all the feedback they need from graphics and sound, while other like me don't even get enough feedback to stay on the track reliably... I'd *really* like to know why I can't seem to pick up what others do... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

It's not that I'm a big realism nut, it's just I think that if GTR is supposed to be an uncompromised sim then the audio should be authentic too. I agree that it would be good to have the tire noise be something the user can set, but personally I wouldn't use it. I find it distracting. "Mitch_A" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fFelc.59248$[email hidden]... > Youre taking this realism thing waaaay to far. There's is absolutely NOWAY > to simulate G-forces in my recliner (even FF and hydraulics are merely > effects). As such the ONLY way to know whats REALLY going on in ourVIRTUAL > car is by visual or sound ques. Visual ques can only do so much and dont > give the type of feedback required to know when your pushing the tires to > the limit. Once youre over the limit yea visual or FF is adequate butthen > it's too late. > > It could be a limitation of the underlying game engine which makes allthis

Quoted text (7 lines)

> talk a mute point. If it isn't then at the bare minimum it should be user > selectable. If you don't want the sound ques on fine turn it off, but at > the least if it's possible I should be able to turn em on without it being > called an ARCADE game. > > Do you turn off the tire sounds in NR2003? Even if you could Id seriously > doubt that anyone would as it gives such good feedback as to whats going

on

Quoted text (10 lines)

> with the car. > > Mitch > > > "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I agree it's not a bad thing in a *game*, and I enjoy plenty of light > weight > > driving games too. But Simbin is trying to do an uncompromised sim and

in > > that case I think it is reasonable to use realistic sounds. > > > > > >

> You can tell how close to the edge you are by steering response, you >don't need a phony noise to tell you. I do... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

Yep. Even cranked fully. In 03, its(track surface in this case) mandatory to have it up to 100% imo. Eric Leblanc <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rYhlc.3333$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (9 lines)

> You can hear what i'm talking and asking about in the game, its just not > loud enough. > > EL > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:o4hlc.108$[email hidden]... > > I'd agree with that; squeal, whatever, there should be some clue

besides

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > visual(which I have yet to believe in the visual examples given in this > > thread, ie, wheel. To late by then). > > > > > > Eric Leblanc <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:Qgglc.1770$[email hidden]... > > > Since i'm a french canadian and sometime struggle with my english if > > squeal > > > mean that when you slide, it sounds like you driving your personnal

car > > and > > > making skid, then yes you don't hear that nose in a race car even > sliding > > > heavily. What you hear in a race car (a good one and not open type)and > > feel > > > is like the rubber gripping to the rough surface of the asphalt. Once > you > > > get near or past the maximum amount of grip, you can really feel the > > force > > > applied to that side of the car or tire giving away and that is allmix > > with > > > sound and vibration. You can really feel the stiffness being hardrather > > > then soft (has you turn forces are applied the shock compression and > gets > > > harder, and that hard/soft transition helps you feel you are loosingthe > > > grip, you may never be able to add this exact feel to a sim and ithink

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > > sound should compensate for that. > > > > > > But no they don't "squeal". And the sound (or feel) i'm talking about > is > > > the same when breaking. Papy was able to create in the sound that grip > > feel > > > i'm talking about once you loose that grip in (n2k3) the car start to > skid > > > or squeal, i don't know if they do in oval racing but at least there

is > 2 > > > different sounds, and that is more noticable if you oval drive thegame, > > if > > > you never did, then go in the game put all sounds to 5% and tiresounds > to > > > 100%, and go around michigan and push it till you wreck it, you'll > > > understand what i mean. > > > > > > I would say the only first grip feel sound going/fading away could bea

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > good > > > indication you are starting to slide. No need for the extra squeal. > > > > > > Eric L > > > > > > > > > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:UWelc.93$[email hidden]... > > > > Thats fine, but I, and others, were responding to the comment

that > > > > modern slicks don't squeal. In terms of Nascar in the 80's, theyused > > > > bias-plys back then, radials now, so apples/oranges. > > > > > > > > And I first attended races at Bristol, Rockingham, andCharlotte

Quoted text (8 lines)

> in > > > '83 > > > > and there was all kinds of squealing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Haqsau <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > No doubt you are hearing something but I don't know what it is.

As > a > > > > > reminder, this thread is about GTR, not NASCAR. Not trying to bea > > > > > smartass, it's just that stock cars have a whole lot more weightper > > > > square > > > > > inch of contact patch than the sports cars in GTR. Maybe that'sthe

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > > > > difference, I don't know. I watched a NASCAR race at Atlanta back > in > > > the > > > > > 80's, when it was still a regular oval, and did not hear any > squealing > > > > tires > > > > > there either. Tires have probably changed a lot since then but

they > > are > > > > > still slicks and that's primarily the issue. With a productiontire

Quoted text (17 lines)

> > you > > > > get > > > > > squeal during a hard corner because of the squirming of the tire > > tread. > > > > > With no tread there is no squeal until you start to get actual > > sliding. > > > > > That's the theory, but I have never heard anything to the contrary > at > > > any > > > > > track or from any race broadcast. > > > > > > > > > > The Valvoline runoffs that I mentioned are the national > championships > > > for > > > > > the SCCA, held at Mid-Ohio every year. Every SCCA class is > > represented > > > > > there - showroom stock, various formula cars, production, GT,

sports > > > > racers, > > > > > sedan and touring cars. Lots of slicks. No tire squeal exceptfor > > one > > > > guy > > > > > in a Firebird in the American Sedan series who couldn't quite getit > > > > > together in the keyhole, and even in his case it looked like hewas > > > > sliding > > > > > across the transition from concrete to asphalt. > > > > > > > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > > > news:oQclc.80$[email hidden]... > > > > > > Could be(your series examples) I'm talking about Nascarseries > > > cars, > > > > or > > > > > > for that matter, late models (on pavement), etc. > > > > > > And no, I'm not talking about any sound other than tiresqueal.

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > > > > > > > > > > > Cars that also use slicks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

>I've never had a problem with the tire sound in the F1 titles, but >yeah, it's pretty damn hard to tell what the tires are doing in this >demo. You don't have the same problem in F1C? Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

>Some areas of improvement are lack of brake lockup even with anti-lock >disabled makes it hard to brake at the limit. I get the impression that the >brake anti-lock is always on even if you disable it. > What pedals are you using? I get lockups all the time(TSW) - that's part of the problem... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

> Also, for your outlap and your first lap at speed you don't have a > great deal of grip. Make sure you're doing at least 2 or 3 laps at > speed to give the tires and brakes time to get up to optimum > temperature. Even the default setup feels much better after a few > laps. Yeah, I've noticed through the MoTec that the tires don't hit 90C until about lap 3 (or one really good spin). I'm also finding that the car feels a lot better on the racing line. Then again, if I'm on the line, I probably didn't get in too hot. It still seems to take awhile for the front to tuck back in unless you're just a hair too fast. It's like the front tires are sliding on ice. I can deal with it though, especially if that's how it really is. Setup tweaks have helped immensely. Still having problems with braking. I know when to let up to keep from locking, but I can't tell how close or far I am from the threshold. Plus, on a long stint, I'm sure I'd go off as the tires lose grip causing the brakes to lock up sooner. Maybe there's some subtle input I'm not tuned into yet. Alan

> I'd agree with that; squeal, whatever, there should be some clue besides > visual(which I have yet to believe in the visual examples given in this > thread, ie, wheel. To late by then). Don't have the rl experiences like you folks, but intuitively, I'd asscoiate squealing with a tire that has all but completely lost grip. Perhaps a "scrubbing" sound would be more appropriate? FWIW, I missed it a bit at first and went into the PLR file to bring it back. There are adjustments for tire noise both when skidding and scrubbing. Increasing VolMult only doesn't help (noise is too sporadic), but you might be able to get what you want by adjusting the three values. Alan

Scrubbing was it, went to 2.0000.. The player.plr won't save after a session though. Mitch "Alan Le" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:36jlc.43980$[email hidden]... > > I'd agree with that; squeal, whatever, there should be some cluebesides > > visual(which I have yet to believe in the visual examples given in this > > thread, ie, wheel. To late by then). > > Don't have the rl experiences like you folks, but intuitively, I'dasscoiate > squealing with a tire that has all but completely lost grip. Perhaps a > "scrubbing" sound would be more appropriate? FWIW, I missed it a bit at > first and went into the PLR file to bring it back. There are adjustments > for tire noise both when skidding and scrubbing. Increasing VolMult only > doesn't help (noise is too sporadic), but you might be able to get whatyou > want by adjusting the three values. > > Alan > >

On Sat, 1 May 2004 23:33:48 +0100, "eppy" <[email hidden]> wrote: <Snip great review> I think it's awesome.....well, it could be. The problem is that GTR still has the ISI controller lag. It's so annoying to see the wheel on the screen turn at least 0.5 seconds slower as my own wheel. I guess the understeer some people complain about is also partly caused by the controller lag. The car refuses to steer for at .5 second in my case after I release the brake, even if I did steer in early to compensate for the lag. :-/ To check if it could be my configuration I fired up GPL, and there the response was just as it should be.... Bummer, I'll not buy GTR. Cheers! Remco

Eldred, I think it's *designed* to be driven w. FF. What's yer prob w FF? "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >Steering response should tell you how close to the edge you are. I can > >certainly feel it in the demo. > > I can't feel it at all. I'm usually backwards before I realize the carhas

Quoted text (14 lines)

> gotten away from me. I'm not using a FF wheel. > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

Turn the brake force down (default is 100; try 80). "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >Some areas of improvement are lack of brake lockup even with anti-lock > >disabled makes it hard to brake at the limit. I get the impression thatthe > >brake anti-lock is always on even if you disable it. > > > > What pedals are you using? I get lockups all the time(TSW) - that's partof

Quoted text (14 lines)

> the problem... > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

There appears to be no slip angle in the physics. You either have grip or none. You cant slide or drift the car at all you just spin out as soon as you break traction. "Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (29 lines)

> On Sat, 1 May 2004 23:33:48 +0100, "eppy" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > <Snip great review> > > > > I think it's awesome.....well, it could be. The problem is that GTR > still has the ISI controller lag. It's so annoying to see the wheel on > the screen turn at least 0.5 seconds slower as my own wheel. > > I guess the understeer some people complain about is also partly > caused by the controller lag. The car refuses to steer for at .5 > second in my case after I release the brake, even if I did steer in > early to compensate for the lag. :-/ > > To check if it could be my configuration I fired up GPL, and there > the response was just as it should be.... > > > Bummer, I'll not buy GTR. > > > Cheers! > > > Remco > > >

> There appears to be no slip angle in the physics. > You either have grip or none. > You cant slide or drift the car at all you just spin out as soon as you > break traction. Hello! These are GT cars with racing slicks! Did you expect to go around every corner sideways? I assure you (and so do the real life drivers who've tested it) that the slip curve is pretty accurate.

Why shouldnt they slide? Stating they have slicks isnt much of an argument. Slicks slide around I watch touring cars slide around all the time of TV. And yes i do expect to be able to slide the cars around if i want. In papyrus games you can slide the cars around and they have always been the most accurate developers. You have never been able to do that with ISI games and thats because ummm its ISI:) "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c75a5n$ifbng$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > There appears to be no slip angle in the physics. > > You either have grip or none. > > You cant slide or drift the car at all you just spin out as soon as you > > break traction. > > Hello! These are GT cars with racing slicks! Did you expect to go around > every corner sideways? I assure you (and so do the real life drivers

who've > tested it) that the slip curve is pretty accurate. > >

Papyrus isn't all that accurate regarding Drafting, Tire Wear, Camber Adjustments... The list goes on.. I HOPE we wouldn't want to say that because Papy games slide, then they MUST be accurate. Bill Bollinger "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40962fff$[email hidden]... > Why shouldnt they slide? > Stating they have slicks isnt much of an argument. > Slicks slide around > I watch touring cars slide around all the time of TV. > And yes i do expect to be able to slide the cars around if i want. > In papyrus games you can slide the cars around and they have always beenthe

Quoted text (10 lines)

> most accurate developers. > You have never been able to do that with ISI games and thats because ummm > its ISI:) > > > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:c75a5n$ifbng$[email hidden]... > > > There appears to be no slip angle in the physics. > > > You either have grip or none. > > > You cant slide or drift the car at all you just spin out as soon as

you > > > break traction. > > > > Hello! These are GT cars with racing slicks! Did you expect to goaround

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > every corner sideways? I assure you (and so do the real life drivers > who've > > tested it) that the slip curve is pretty accurate. > > > > > >

I slide the F1C F1 cars sometimes, even though i don't want to. :-) David G Fisher "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40962fff$[email hidden]... > Why shouldnt they slide? > Stating they have slicks isnt much of an argument. > Slicks slide around > I watch touring cars slide around all the time of TV. > And yes i do expect to be able to slide the cars around if i want. > In papyrus games you can slide the cars around and they have always beenthe

Quoted text (10 lines)

> most accurate developers. > You have never been able to do that with ISI games and thats because ummm > its ISI:) > > > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:c75a5n$ifbng$[email hidden]... > > > There appears to be no slip angle in the physics. > > > You either have grip or none. > > > You cant slide or drift the car at all you just spin out as soon as

you > > > break traction. > > > > Hello! These are GT cars with racing slicks! Did you expect to goaround

Quoted text (7 lines)

> > every corner sideways? I assure you (and so do the real life drivers > who've > > tested it) that the slip curve is pretty accurate. > > > > > >

No its not because of papy its because of real life. Cars slide,thats just plain physics.Be it a Gt with slick or a road car,they all exhibit a degree of slip angle. In gtr you cannot slide the car at all! I could deal with it being very hard to slide or control the slide,but there is simply nothing there at all,you just lose it as soon as the rears break traction. "Bill Bollinger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (17 lines)

> Papyrus isn't all that accurate regarding Drafting, Tire Wear, Camber > Adjustments... The list goes on.. I HOPE we wouldn't want to say that > because Papy games slide, then they MUST be accurate. > > Bill Bollinger > > "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:40962fff$[email hidden]... > > Why shouldnt they slide? > > Stating they have slicks isnt much of an argument. > > Slicks slide around > > I watch touring cars slide around all the time of TV. > > And yes i do expect to be able to slide the cars around if i want. > > In papyrus games you can slide the cars around and they have always been > the > > most accurate developers. > > You have never been able to do that with ISI games and thats because

ummm

Quoted text (22 lines)

> > its ISI:) > > > > > > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:c75a5n$ifbng$[email hidden]... > > > > There appears to be no slip angle in the physics. > > > > You either have grip or none. > > > > You cant slide or drift the car at all you just spin out as soon as > you > > > > break traction. > > > > > > Hello! These are GT cars with racing slicks! Did you expect to go > around > > > every corner sideways? I assure you (and so do the real life drivers > > who've > > > tested it) that the slip curve is pretty accurate. > > > > > > > > > > > >

You're not seriously suggesting that you can't slide these cars AT ALL?? Admittedly it's difficult to save slides in this game but it's certainly not impossible.

Well i think i slid under braking,but actually driving through corners and out of them i cant slide them without crashing,and im a top sim driver if i dare say so. Whats wrong with admitting the physics are flawed anyway? Its only ISI so its hardly news. "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c75d67$hlguc$[email hidden]... > You're not seriously suggesting that you can't slide these cars AT ALL?? > Admittedly it's difficult to save slides in this game but it's certainlynot > impossible. > >

> Whats wrong with admitting the physics are flawed anyway? > Its only ISI so its hardly news. Troll <plonk>

Fanboy.. "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:c75hui$i9ill$[email hidden]... > > Whats wrong with admitting the physics are flawed anyway? > > Its only ISI so its hardly news. > > Troll <plonk> > >

It always seems to deteriorate to this... "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

> Fanboy.. > > "Damien Evans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:c75hui$i9ill$[email hidden]... > > > Whats wrong with admitting the physics are flawed anyway? > > > Its only ISI so its hardly news. > > > > Troll <plonk> > > > > > >

Alan Le <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:36jlc.43980$[email hidden]... > > I'd agree with that; squeal, whatever, there should be some cluebesides > > visual(which I have yet to believe in the visual examples given in this > > thread, ie, wheel. To late by then). > > Don't have the rl experiences like you folks, but intuitively, I'dasscoiate > squealing with a tire that has all but completely lost grip. Perhaps a > "scrubbing" sound would be more appropriate? FWIW, I missed it a bit at > first and went into the PLR file to bring it back. There are adjustments > for tire noise both when skidding and scrubbing. Increasing VolMult only > doesn't help (noise is too sporadic), but you might be able to get whatyou > want by adjusting the three values. > > Alan Good idea, thanks. > >

Good idea, thanks.

>Eldred, I think it's *designed* to be driven w. FF. What's yer prob w FF? > I don't have one that will work on the computer that I'm currently using... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

>Turn the brake force down (default is 100; try 80). I thought it was 50...maybe I'm looking at the wrong screen. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

Setup perhaps? "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:409629a1$[email hidden]... > There appears to be no slip angle in the physics. > You either have grip or none. > You cant slide or drift the car at all you just spin out as soon as you > break traction. > >

What is it? An Apple II? A Kaypro? An IBM 360? "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >Eldred, I think it's *designed* to be driven w. FF. What's yer prob wFF? > > > > I don't have one that will work on the computer that I'm currentlyusing...

Quoted text (13 lines)

> > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

No, *I'm* sorry: it's not brake "force," it's brake "pressure" (from page 1 of the Setup menus). Default is 100, tho. You might start @ 50 and work yer way up...or set the ABS higher than Low (which is what I've been using). "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (16 lines)

> >Turn the brake force down (default is 100; try 80). > > I thought it was 50...maybe I'm looking at the wrong screen. > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

>What is it? An Apple II? A Kaypro? An IBM 360? I've actually owned an Apple II(still have it in the basement) and a Kaypro(well, my dad did). I didn't have an FF wheel for a long time, until a kind soul here provided me with one. I'm ashamed to say that I haven't been able to get it to work yet. For some reason, this system has problems with USB devices(lockups, crashes, etc.). If I get a chance to test my music studio computer, the wheel may work with that one. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

How can you sleep at night with your gaming rig in such a mess Eldred ;) If ONE thing isnt exactly right I can't hehe. My customers rigs on the other hand ;)) Mitch "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >What is it? An Apple II? A Kaypro? An IBM 360? > > I've actually owned an Apple II(still have it in the basement) and a > Kaypro(well, my dad did). > I didn't have an FF wheel for a long time, until a kind soul here providedme > with one. I'm ashamed to say that I haven't been able to get it to workyet. > For some reason, this system has problems with USB devices(lockups,crashes, > etc.). If I get a chance to test my music studio computer, the wheel maywork

Quoted text (14 lines)

> with that one. > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

You could prolly find an old gameport-equipped FF wheel (I just hrew one out...if only I'd known!), only that prolly wouldn't work w. a "music studio" 'puta 'cuz the "gameport" would prolly be a MIDI port.... If you need the odd bits & pieces of h/w, email me; I always seem to have leftovers after my many upgrades (altho most of it is invariably 2 years old).. "EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >What is it? An Apple II? A Kaypro? An IBM 360? > > I've actually owned an Apple II(still have it in the basement) and a > Kaypro(well, my dad did). > I didn't have an FF wheel for a long time, until a kind soul here providedme > with one. I'm ashamed to say that I haven't been able to get it to workyet. > For some reason, this system has problems with USB devices(lockups,crashes, > etc.). If I get a chance to test my music studio computer, the wheel maywork

Quoted text (14 lines)

> with that one. > > Eldred > -- > http://www.umich.edu/~epickett > Screamers League > IICC League > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na > N2k3 rank:in progress > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro > US East

"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4096365b$[email hidden]... > No its not because of papy its because of real life. > Cars slide,thats just plain physics.Be it a Gt with slick or a roadcar,they > all exhibit a degree of slip angle. > In gtr you cannot slide the car at all! > I could deal with it being very hard to slide or control the slide,butthere > is simply nothing there at all,you just lose it as soon as the rears break > traction. Exactly what I was looking for in the Demo. Kinda bums me out no slip angle, to the point of being a deciding factor to buy or not..

After a LOT of practice, I'll take back what I said about no slip angle, and change it to "a very little slip angle". Ont the faster sweepers, I can control up the car up to about 10 degrees of oversteer. The biggest tip is to use only a little opposite lock. On my Momo Force (red) wheel, I use about a quarter turn of opposite lock. This will allow me to control the slide and let the car center without over-correcting in to a spin the other way. The other tip is to be very judicious with the throttle. On the fast 3/4th gear sweepers, I can power through the corners with about half throttle - giving me neutral to positive oversteer, with very little wheel movement required. I still haven't managed to trail brake properly - that's my next goal... Tim "Badmuther #1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4096365b$[email hidden]... > > No its not because of papy its because of real life. > > Cars slide,thats just plain physics.Be it a Gt with slick or a road > car,they > > all exhibit a degree of slip angle. > > In gtr you cannot slide the car at all! > > I could deal with it being very hard to slide or control the slide,but > there > > is simply nothing there at all,you just lose it as soon as the rears

break > > traction. > > > Exactly what I was looking for in the Demo. Kinda bums me out no slipangle, > to > the point of being a deciding factor to buy or not.. > > >

Someone on RSC mentioned that the control axis when set at 50% were %100 linear. I tried this and found it much easier to drive. p.s Thats with a HyperStim "eppy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Rawmc.10537$[email hidden]... > After a LOT of practice, I'll take back what I said about no slip angle,and > change it to "a very little slip angle". > > Ont the faster sweepers, I can control up the car up to about 10 degreesof > oversteer. The biggest tip is to use only a little opposite lock. On myMomo > Force (red) wheel, I use about a quarter turn of opposite lock. This will > allow me to control the slide and let the car center withoutover-correcting

Quoted text (40 lines)

> in to a spin the other way. > > The other tip is to be very judicious with the throttle. On the fast 3/4th > gear sweepers, I can power through the corners with about half throttle - > giving me neutral to positive oversteer, with very little wheel movement > required. > > I still haven't managed to trail brake properly - that's my next goal... > > > Tim > > > > "Badmuther #1" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:4096365b$[email hidden]... > > > No its not because of papy its because of real life. > > > Cars slide,thats just plain physics.Be it a Gt with slick or a road > > car,they > > > all exhibit a degree of slip angle. > > > In gtr you cannot slide the car at all! > > > I could deal with it being very hard to slide or control the slide,but > > there > > > is simply nothing there at all,you just lose it as soon as the rears > break > > > traction. > > > > > > Exactly what I was looking for in the Demo. Kinda bums me out no slip > angle, > > to > > the point of being a deciding factor to buy or not.. > > > > > > > >