All,
I am surprised that Dean put up with as much as he did. No one should
have to take that abuse for an extremely complex product that costs
only $50. He is/was doing all that he could to answer questions,
relay information to the development team and get problems rectified.
The internet provides the safety of distance to people who wouldn't
dream of doing or saying something to that person's face.
I am personally disgusted with the current situation of the USENET
arena. Freedom, yea great. With freedom comes responsibility. Use it
wisely or lose it. In our case we have lost feedback from a devoted
product manager due to the lack of respect for him and his job.
I spent many years on Compuserve and the forums were extremely
helpful. They were monitored and flaming was just not tolerated. Good
information was exchanged in a civilized manner. I didn't consider it
censorship, rather it was conducting conversations in a respectful
manner.
Perhaps we could end up with a RAS MODERATED group that could welcome
back the vendors to discuss their products in such a manner. (I don't
have a clue about how to do this).
Call me fed up with SPAM, 900 number ads and immature, disrespectful
people in these forums.
Respectfully,
Jeff Haas
Notable threadFlame warCalls to moderate r.a.s. after the loss of Dean
A poster blamed abuse for Dean's departure and floated moderating the newsgroup. Francois Menard (ymenard) claimed r.a.s. had been moderated before and was accused by Eric Busch, Joe and others of lying about being its leader. Michael Carver, John Wallace and Richard Walker said they would support moderation or preferred CompuServe's Sports Sims forum, while others valued the unmoderated group's signal-to-noise ratio.
community/meta
Automated summary.
% All,
% I am surprised that Dean put up with as much as he did. No one should
% have to take that abuse for an extremely complex product that costs
% only $50. He is/was doing all that he could to answer questions,
% relay information to the development team and get problems rectified.
% The internet provides the safety of distance to people who wouldn't
% dream of doing or saying something to that person's face.
To be candidly honest, Dean was not attacked per se. There have been
posts concerning the product. And yes there were derogatory comments
about Microsoft. I am sorry, but I really find it hard to understand
when a rep of a company decides to bail because one or two posters in
a public forum can't be civilized. It's immature to spite the majority
because of the actions of a few. It's not as if Dean was here doing it
all by himself. There have been many ardent posts by the heavy
supporters of CPR. To turn the tables and make someone else responsible
for one's actions is immature. Dean made the decision to come to r.a.s.
and support his product. Dean made the decision to leave r.a.s., no
other individual can take that honor. No matter how hard someone wants
to make it appear otherwise. Usenet is an open public forum.
% I am personally disgusted with the current situation of the USENET
% arena. Freedom, yea great. With freedom comes responsibility. Use it
% wisely or lose it. In our case we have lost feedback from a devoted
% product manager due to the lack of respect for him and his job.
I empathize with Dean. I can understand his frustrations. He's human
and so is everyone else who posts to r.a.s. Again, I am sorry, but I
did not see the majority of the posts as disrespectful of Dean or his
job. Basically the worst that I recall being said about Dean was that
he at times skirted issues and did not address certain short-comings or
problems people were experiencing with CPR. Dean's rights are no more
valuable than any other contributor to r.a.s. Comments made about the
product were valid. I will agree that some of them may have been based
on mis-concepts or overlooked "settings options". But, that still
doesn't make them invalid. Again, I must stress, no one cut Dean from
the group, he made that decision himself.
% I spent many years on Compuserve and the forums were extremely
% helpful. They were monitored and flaming was just not tolerated. Good
% information was exchanged in a civilized manner. I didn't consider it
% censorship, rather it was conducting conversations in a respectful
% manner.
% Perhaps we could end up with a RAS MODERATED group that could welcome
% back the vendors to discuss their products in such a manner. (I don't
% have a clue about how to do this).
There is a process for creating groups (moderated or unmoderated). The
idea of creating a separate moderated r.a.s. was also discussed during
the RFD for splitting up r.a.s. a while back. The interesting thing is
that the call for splitting up r.a.s. also included similar
concerns. Only then it was Papyrus reps who cried foul and took their
ball home with them. If you are really interested in pursuing this,
here is some starting information:
If you really think it is appropriate to start a new newsgroup, some
general guidelines can be found in:
news.announce.newgroups: How_to_Create_a_New_Usenet_Newsgroup
news.groups: Usenet_Newsgroup_Creation_Companion
alt.config: So_You_Want_to_Create_an_Alt_Newsgroup
New newsgroups in the comp, humanities, misc, news, rec, sci, soc, and
talk hierarchies are first proposed/discussed in news.groups. New
newsgroups for the alt hierarchy should be first proposed/discussed in
alt.config. Talk to someone local about starting new local
newsgroups - send mail to your local news admin to find out where to
start.
It is recommended that you have several months experience with USENET
and watching the democratic group creation process in action for other
groups before you attempt to run your own proposal. In particular,
read both news.announce.newgroups and news.groups to see the way
proposals are presented and the sort of pitfalls you can stumble into.
Also read alt.config if you think you want to start an alt newsgroup.
Make sure you have read and fully understand the postings "How to
Create a New Usenet Newsgroup" and "Usenet Newsgroup Creation Companion"
in news.announce.newusers.
[http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/finding-groups/
general/faq-doc-10.html]
% Call me fed up with SPAM, 900 number ads and immature, disrespectful
% people in these forums.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The worst I recall was someone quoting his name as Dean "F'tang F'tang" CART
Team. I dunno WTF F'tang is, but I'm about cryin' right now over it ;-))). I
just felt the need to add my name to this [these] threads. Thanks for your
time.
Happy Lappin'
Wade Tschida
What? $50 is a lot of money for a piece of software that has not passed the
beta-stage yet.....
(I don't have CPR, I have never mailed Dean, but took a quick look at the
demo and quickly went back to N2.)
Cheers,
Harald
<<Call me fed up with SPAM, 900 number ads and immature, disrespectful
people in these forums.
Respectfully,
Jeff Haas>>
That's gonna be tough to fit on your driver's license, when you get
one...
Bart
>Perhaps we could end up with a RAS MODERATED group that could welcome
>back the vendors to discuss their products in such a manner. (I don't
>have a clue about how to do this).
Oh No....
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
No nonononononnoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ! ! ! ! ..................
Don't take this bad dream and make it reality ANOTHER time <gggg>
Btw r.a.s. was moderated 2 times in it's history. One time in 1993, for
it's first month of activity (Gerhard Lingenberg was the moderator). And
another time in June1997, for a stupid thing (my fault), but let's not go in
this discussion AGAIN <gggg>.
r.a.s will EVER, EVER be moderated another time. Me and Gerhard Lingenberg
made the decision after the flop of June97. Not that it is not a good idea.
But it's not appropriate in this situation. For all of those who were here
in June, you know all the reason why we will not put it moderated. We two
took the decision that anybody can have their opinion here and be Read,
wRote and Replyed (the 3 R's ). I quote the beginning of the
Howard Stern show to make you understand. "This radio show contains some
comments that can be offensive and provocative. If you are not happy....
Please change the channel".
I still have burns from the biggest flame thread of the history of r.a.s
(June97).
Fran?ois Mnard,
Creator, rec.autos.simulators
With great respect,
May the downforce be with you,
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)
ymenard on NROS, sponsored by
http://www.awpss.com/
SimRacing director, AWPSS
- *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -
Quoted text (7 lines)
>There is a process for creating groups (moderated or unmoderated). The >idea of creating a separate moderated r.a.s. was also discussed during >the RFD for splitting up r.a.s. a while back. The interesting thing is >that the call for splitting up r.a.s. also included similar >concerns. Only then it was Papyrus reps who cried foul and took their >ball home with them. If you are really interested in pursuing this, >here is some starting information:If I ever created a SIM or game, It would be FAR HARDER to discourage
me from discussing it with its users!!!(unless they got together and
told me to leave,or I didnt believe in the product) The only thing that
would ever bug me is people who cant seem to read the instruction
manual.Thats always bugged the hell out of me and Ive never even made a
SIM or game LOL:)
Quoted text (11 lines)
>>There is a process for creating groups (moderated or unmoderated). The >>idea of creating a separate moderated r.a.s. was also discussed during >>the RFD for splitting up r.a.s. a while back. The interesting thing is >>that the call for splitting up r.a.s. also included similar >>concerns. Only then it was Papyrus reps who cried foul and took their >>ball home with them. If you are really interested in pursuing this, >>here is some starting information: >I do not push you too make ANY actions with the r.a.s. newsgroup. You are >probably new to the newsgroup (less than 6months) so just to tell you flame >festivals are frequent on r.a.s. Be aware. Any attempt to change r.a.s. >will make you many ennemies (including me and many other veterans).Don't forget this kid's 'debut' into R.A.S. back in Winter '96 when he
decided to post the Indy track for everyone. Funny I don't seem to
remember ever hearing from him prior to that, even though according to
him he 'created' R.A.S. BTW, here's a classic quote (you'll find tons
of his pearls of wisdom with a simple Deja News search) from our
newsgroup's 'founder':
"I think Sierra is controling this Newsgroup. She deletes Post that she
does not want. Like here's an exemple. In Netscape 3.0 I can not find
any message about the Indianapolis track, or the Nascar2sucks. Hope it's
not real because ther's a problem here!!! The Blue ribbon speech could
make a good paper for this. Anyway who's in charge of this
Newsgroup???."
How could the creator not know who was in charge of R.A.S.? What a
joke...
--
Eric T. Busch
http://ebusch.akorn.net
>For anyone interested in the facts:
>- ymenard, in a fit of egomania the likes of which hasn't been seen
>since Napoleonic France, unilateraly declared himself Lord and Master
>of this newsgroup (you're not *short* are you?)
>- there were about 3,000 flames in reponse, most making the obvious
>point that ymenard had no such authority, couldn't make r.a.s.
>moderated (or anything else) if his life depended on, and was
>basically the biggest ass in the entire history of usenet (despite
>fierce competion from such halls of calm, rational debate as
>games.action)
>it's first month of activity (Gerhard Lingenberg was the moderator). And
>another time in June1997,
Untrue, the forum was not moderated at all in 1997. I do recall a
particular monster-ego CLAIMING that it could be, would be moderated,
and unilateraly declaring himself Lord, King, and God of r.a.s., but
that was just an egomaniac on the loose. It wasn't moderated for one
second.
Apparently some remains of that rampant egomania still remain
unchecked. You and Gerhard made no such decision, because you had no
authority or power to make such a decision.
Do you have any idea of what an utter ignoramus you sound like when
making these completely false, pretentious statements? And idea of
what a complete ass you are now making of yourself yet again? Do you
really think people here are that stupid, that they don't remember
what actualy happened?
For anyone interested in the facts:
- ymenard, in a fit of egomania the likes of which hasn't been seen
since Napoleonic France, unilateraly declared himself Lord and Master
of this newsgroup (you're not *short* are you?)
- there were about 3,000 flames in reponse, most making the obvious
point that ymenard had no such authority, couldn't make r.a.s.
moderated (or anything else) if his life depended on, and was
basically the biggest ass in the entire history of usenet (despite
fierce competion from such halls of calm, rational debate as
games.action)
Hope you kept your asbestos underwear, cause you just stepped in it
again dude.
Joe
>I do not push you too make ANY actions with the r.a.s. newsgroup. You are
>probably new to the newsgroup (less than 6months) so just to tell you flame
>festivals are frequent on r.a.s. Be aware. Any attempt to change r.a.s.
>will make you many ennemies (including me and many other veterans).
You think Michael Carver is new to this group? You have to be kidding.
Yeah, right, ok, whatever....
You're not the leader, meister, lord, top simracer, etc. of this
group, either. Quit going on your stupid little ego trips, ok pal?
Thats why you got flamed so much a while back, anyways.
--
Please remove nospam from address when replying via e-mail.
I just did a search on Deja News. Six months ago you said that, along
with Eric, Michael was the leader of RAS. You also named them on your
top sim racers list. Neither one of them had any idea about what you
were talking about. So, after saying several months ago that Michael
is one of the leaders of the group and also that he supposedly asked
you to lead this group, you now think that he is new here?
--
Please remove nospam from address when replying via e-mail.
(Eric's post snipped)
Here is more:
"First of all, I was named by the Top 15 SimRacers on the 'net, so I
didn't elected myself as the leader of r.a.s. It was inside a chat of
those important people that they decided to have an official leader of
r.a.s. They discussed on who it should be, and they arrived at the
conclusion that it should be me, but with restrictions. Eric T. Busch
and Micheal E.Carver don't have time now like me to spend on r.a.s.,
so I said yes when they proposed me the "job". With the upcomming
NROS in the next month, this newsgroup will grow really fast, and some
person speculates that It will double in size. So they decided to
elect me as the leader. ... I am the type of person who wouldn't hurt
a fly, so I will do all I can to make r.a.s. better. I've never done
something bad to all of you and respect each person. I also think
that I know my stuff, it's just that I'm more interested into
philophical threads than the technical part of SimRacing. ...
With great respect,
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) ________________________
--
Please remove nospam from address when replying via e-mail.
Just to make it crystal clear, neither Michael nor I had anything to do
with this kid's delusions of power. Either he fabricated this entire
deal or it was a set up, with someone telling him this stuff hoping he'd
actually be naive or stupid enough to fall for it. I'm pretty sure the
former is what happened. If not, I'm kind of upset I was left out of
the joke... =(
All in all it was still quite a good laugh.
--
Eric T. Busch
http://ebusch.akorn.net
an old ymenard quote...
>New to the newsgroup? Did you actually say that Michael Carver was new
>to the newsgroup? Pull your head out of your rear already you ego freak.
>Oh ya, sorry I forgot you are the leader here!
Oh sorry I was replying to the other guy that posted before Micheal (lol
like if I dunno who is Micheal). I just bad-replyed and out Micheal at the
top. I was replying the guy the guy that wanted r.a.s. moderated. My bad but
not on purpose.
Like who ? Tim Worthman and Richard Scott. AFAIK those were the only guys
that talked about racing sims before r.a.s., in the comp.sys.pc.games
newsgroup.
I never said I was the leader in my posts (excluding the june97 flop). Where
did I put that I was the leader ??? Tell me <g>
Ok so tell me if you know how r.a.s. got created ?? who ?? when ?? why ??
what ?? Get your point straigh if you want to tell to me that I am a liyer.
And why do you always comeback on all those old things. <g>
Fran?ois Mnard,
Creator, rec.autos.simulators
With great respect,
May the downforce be with you,
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)
ymenard on NROS, sponsored by
http://www.awpss.com/
SimRacing director, AWPSS
- *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -
>You think Michael Carver is new to this group? You have to be kidding.
Read my reply to Greg Cisko. My bad but wasnt on purpose. Bad replying (was
replaying to the guy bofre him.
Ok like you say tell me who is he really ? Tim Worthman ? Anybody else ??
Tell it. Get you point taken. <g> I never said I was the
leader/meister/lord (that sounds cool)/topsimracer <g>
Fran?ois Mnard,
Creator, rec.autos.simulators
With great respect,
May the downforce be with you,
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)
ymenard on NROS, sponsored by
http://www.awpss.com/
SimRacing director, AWPSS
- *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -
>I just did a search on Deja News. Six months ago you said that, along
>with Eric, Michael was the leader of RAS. You also named them on your
>top sim racers list. Neither one of them had any idea about what you
>were talking about. So, after saying several months ago that Michael
>is one of the leaders of the group and also that he supposedly asked
>you to lead this group, you now think that he is new here?
Yes you are true, and I still can say it. Micheal, with the FAQ, and also
Eric T.Busch are presently and since about 2years the most influents (a.k.a.
leaders) of r.a.s. But heck DON'T try to play with words. There`s a
difference between leader and foundator. Actually the newsgroup isn`t mine
anymore, I can't no more control it (I could but I wont). You are mixing
leader and creator <g> Two different things. Good try. It ain`t working
with me anymore. I really said that he asked me to lead this gourp ?? kewl
I didn't know (I dont remember!) that`s funny heh ! cool heh !
And I never said to Micheal that he was a newbie. It`s a bad replying, and
I was trying to replay the guy before him. lol Like if I woulod insult
Micheal like that !
Micheal please clarify some things here. People are presently flaming me and
inventing some things I never said. <gg>
Fran?ois Mnard,
Creator, rec.autos.simulators
With great respect,
May the downforce be with you,
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)
ymenard on NROS, sponsored by
http://www.awpss.com/
SimRacing director, AWPSS
- *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -
>Don't forget this kid's 'debut' into R.A.S. back in Winter '96 when he
>decided to post the Indy track for everyone. Funny I don't seem to
>remember ever hearing from him prior to that, even though according to
>him he 'created' R.A.S. BTW, here's a classic quote (you'll find tons
>of his pearls of wisdom with a simple Deja News search) from our
>newsgroup's 'founder':
Nope Eric, I was a on r.a.s wayyy before, I just made a pause between Summer
of 95 and Automn of 96. I had to go away from my home and emigrate for 1
year in the USA, actually in Cape Canaveral where my father was working at
this time on the Canadarm (the robotic arm on the space shuttle) at the
NASA. I wasn't in the possibility to have access to the Internet but I had
access to the Nasa schoolnet, a network between all the Nasa related schools
in the world, where I was able to form a little discussion group about
***, escpecially racing ones.
Eric you know I am not lying <g>
Btw why do you think ***-racing.com wants to make a article on my
simracing life (it will be publish before x-mas as I heard).... Because
some people knows there that I am the creator <g> and you know I ain`t not
the psycho-guy, the hitler, the master lord or whatever people think I am.
Fran?ois Mnard,
Creator, rec.autos.simulators
With great respect,
May the downforce be with you,
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)
ymenard on NROS, sponsored by
http://www.awpss.com/
SimRacing director, AWPSS
- *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -
Francois, in all seriousness, what colour is the sky in your world?
R.A.S. was most certainly _not_ moderated in June 1997. It is not an
easy thing to moderate a newsgroup, and requires everyone to change
their method of posting. Team moderation is even more complex. I'm not
sure what you hope to gain by saying this, perhaps if you tell enough
people enough times that you were the creator of r.a.s. then people
will believe it's true?
If someone wants to moderate r.a.s. then I personally am all for it. I
like the wider audience this group reaches but I cannot state enough
how much I prefer the ambience, camaraderie and atmosphere over on
CompuServe's Sports Sims forum. If moderating r.a.s. would be a step
toward that level of respectful, intelligent debate and exchange of
ideas then I would vote for it in an instant, heck I would even freely
give some of my time to moderate it.
I can hear the shouts now about "Freedom of Speech", but please, save
it. Freedom of speech is wonderful as an idealistic concept, but the
founding fathers didn't anticipate Usenet, where it also becomes
freedom from the consequences.
Cheers!
John
>in the world, where I was able to form a little discussion group about
>***, escpecially racing ones.
>Eric you know I am not lying <g>
Your lies have been well-documented, including some reposted right
here in this forum (about Michael and Eric electing you "leader", as
just one example). Plus another post that makes it clear you didn't
even know how usenet or this group works. You are lying through your
TEETH, and the records are there for anyone to see proof of this.
Why you would want to continue to embarass youself further by
compounding your lies is beyond me.
Joe
LOL! Good catch there, Eric. The guy's certifiable.
Joe
>in the world, where I was able to form a little discussion group about
>***, escpecially racing ones.
>Eric you know I am not lying <g>
Your lies have been well-documented, including some reposted right
here in this forum (about Michael and Eric electing you "leader").
Plus another post from
Joe
>leaders) of r.a.s. But heck DON'T try to play with words. There`s a
>difference between leader and foundator. Actually the newsgroup isn`t mine
>anymore, I can't no more control it (I could but I wont).
The technical term for this is "pathological liar", folks. Just feel
sorry for him - he can't help it, really.
Eric already denied your story outright, and believe me Eric T. Busch
has one hell of a lot more creibility around here than you have in
your *dreams*. I'm pretty sure Micheal denied it too when you first
went insane last summer (or perhaps you went insane before that and we
just didn't know about it?).
Joe
Only in your pathetic dreams...Gerhard didn't even have time
to devote to any simracing, 'net activity, or whatever in June
you dumbass. I challenge you to find any posts from him dated
for the month you claim.
After a serious car accident last year, his time has been devoted to
his company, his rehabilitation, and perhaps a snipet of sim-
programming...The last post I saw from him in r.a.s. was that he was
upset about some of the pirated utilities available on the 'net, and
this was back in May...
Boy, you can sure shovel it out.
Marc
Eh?...Why did you say this? Adding fuel to the fire? I don't get it.
Marc
Yeah, Michael Carver, who is that guy?! :) I recall Michael being
around (and being helpful) when I first set foot in r.a.s., which was
a looooooong time ago.
As for attempts to change or moderate r.a.s., I would certainly be one
supporter of it. I wasn't to keen on the idea originally, but in the
last couple of weeks I've seen far too many messages sent purely for
the purpose of busing someone, and far too few for the purpose of
having any kind of discussion. Randy, Joe, Jeff, Jim, there's a few
managing to continue a reasonable discussion, but the S/N ratio
overall has taken a nosedive. Not the fault of CPR, but it really has
been one of the worst things ever for this newsgroup (eclipsed only by
a certain god...) :)
Cheers!
John
<snip>
% If someone wants to moderate r.a.s. then I personally am all for it. I
% like the wider audience this group reaches but I cannot state enough
% how much I prefer the ambience, camaraderie and atmosphere over on
% CompuServe's Sports Sims forum. If moderating r.a.s. would be a step
% toward that level of respectful, intelligent debate and exchange of
% ideas then I would vote for it in an instant, heck I would even freely
% give some of my time to moderate it.
% I can hear the shouts now about "Freedom of Speech", but please, save
% it. Freedom of speech is wonderful as an idealistic concept, but the
% founding fathers didn't anticipate Usenet, where it also becomes
% freedom from the consequences.
I think there is room for both a moderated and non-moderated newsgroup
for r.a.s. There are good things and bad things about moderated
newsgroups. One of the off-shoots of the discussion about splitting up
r.a.s., was the possibility of a moderated group to discuss development
and "enhancements" to simulation programs. One that would allow the
developers a place to visit in relative peace. I believe it was Ed
Martin from Papyrus who voiced his concerns about having a "safe zone"
for developers to participate. Another alternative is to have a closed
listserv. I really don't want to see r.a.s. become moderated, unless we
have two forums, one for "controlled" content and one in which anarchy
can rule. I mean who would want to miss some of these greatly inspired
posts we've seen of late? <G>
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Quoted text (10 lines)
>>>I know what I am talking. I attempted to change r.a.s. in June97. I was >>>able for 1week, I didn't pass by the RFD and CFV route because I am the >>>first creator of r.a.s, in 1993. I can still in less than 1 hour make >>Oh so this is why you think you are the leader? Oh sheesh already give >>it a rest. I remember there were people far more involved in the creation >>of RAS than you. >Like who ? Tim Worthman and Richard Scott. AFAIK those were the only guys >that talked about racing sims before r.a.s., in the comp.sys.pc.gamesQuoted text (21 lines)
> >I do not push you too make ANY actions with the r.a.s. newsgroup. You are > >probably new to the newsgroup (less than 6months) so just to tell you flame > >festivals are frequent on r.a.s. Be aware. Any attempt to change r.a.s. > >will make you many ennemies (including me and many other veterans). > Yeah, Michael Carver, who is that guy?! :) I recall Michael being > around (and being helpful) when I first set foot in r.a.s., which was > a looooooong time ago. > As for attempts to change or moderate r.a.s., I would certainly be one > supporter of it. I wasn't to keen on the idea originally, but in the > last couple of weeks I've seen far too many messages sent purely for > the purpose of busing someone, and far too few for the purpose of > having any kind of discussion. Randy, Joe, Jeff, Jim, there's a few > managing to continue a reasonable discussion, but the S/N ratio > overall has taken a nosedive. Not the fault of CPR, but it really has > been one of the worst things ever for this newsgroup (eclipsed only by > a certain god...) :) > Cheers! > John% And I never said to Micheal that he was a newbie. It`s a bad replying, and
% I was trying to replay the guy before him. lol Like if I woulod insult
% Micheal like that !
% Micheal please clarify some things here. People are presently flaming me and
% inventing some things I never said. <gg>
What? And put a stop to this distraction to that other wild
conversation on the other side of the hall! Well, the most I can say is
that Francois made a minor error when he posted his first response to
this thread. He edited out the part of my reply which quoted the person
I was responding to. Now don't get me wrong, it's a "good thing"
(thank you Martha), to "pare" down a post one is replying to. However,
you need to be careful and not cut out the parts that destroy the link
to your reply. That was an honest mistake on Francois' part. On that
point, I can give him the benefit of the doubt.
However, ymenard, you will have to live with direct quotes from posts
you made in the past as long as they can be summoned from the dead via
dejanews. It's really hard to leave the past behind at times. I can't
vouch for or deny your claims to having created r.a.s., but I can highly
doubt them. There's just something wrong with that picture. I have
basically been participating since its conception and don't recall
anything during that time that would lead me to believe you were party
to its birth.
% Fran?ois Mnard,
% Creator, rec.autos.simulators
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Quoted text (36 lines)
> Don't forget this kid's 'debut' into R.A.S. back in Winter '96 when he > decided to post the Indy track for everyone. Funny I don't seem to > remember ever hearing from him prior to that, even though according to > him he 'created' R.A.S. BTW, here's a classic quote (you'll find tons > of his pearls of wisdom with a simple Deja News search) from our > newsgroup's 'founder': > "I think Sierra is controling this Newsgroup. She deletes Post that she > does not want. Like here's an exemple. In Netscape 3.0 I can not find > any message about the Indianapolis track, or the Nascar2sucks. Hope it's > not real because ther's a problem here!!! The Blue ribbon speech could > make a good paper for this. Anyway who's in charge of this > Newsgroup???." > How could the creator not know who was in charge of R.A.S.? What a > joke... > -- > Eric T. Busch > http://ebusch.akorn.net > >For anyone interested in the facts: > >- ymenard, in a fit of egomania the likes of which hasn't been seen > >since Napoleonic France, unilateraly declared himself Lord and Master > >of this newsgroup (you're not *short* are you?) > >- there were about 3,000 flames in reponse, most making the obvious > >point that ymenard had no such authority, couldn't make r.a.s. > >moderated (or anything else) if his life depended on, and was > >basically the biggest ass in the entire history of usenet (despite > >fierce competion from such halls of calm, rational debate as > >games.action)> >That's gonna be tough to fit on your driver's license, when you
> >get one...
> Eh?...Why did you say this? Adding fuel to the fire? I don't get it.
> Marc
Hi Marc,
This is a good place to consider the source :) his IQ is just a little
short of his shoe size<g>!
Trev
..and you have claimed to be both. In the past you said that you are
the leader, now you claim that you are the founder.
You don't remember? You came up with a list of the "top 15 sim
racers", and you claimed that they all had a "secret meeting" and
asked you to be the new leader of r.a.s., since Eric and Michael
"didn't have the time". You also mentioned in some other group that
you were the new leader of r.a.s.
Ok, I apologise for that, then.
Everything that I said about you or quoted can be found right on
Deja News.
--
Please remove nospam from address when replying via e-mail.
<<This is a good place to consider the source :) his IQ is just a little
short of his shoe size<g>!>>
I bet you don't even *know* my shoe size...
Bart brown
>>I do not push you too make ANY actions with the r.a.s. newsgroup. You are
>>probably new to the newsgroup (less than 6months) so just to tell you flame
>>festivals are frequent on r.a.s. Be aware. Any attempt to change r.a.s.
>>will make you many ennemies (including me and many other veterans).
>Yeah, Michael Carver, who is that guy?! :) I recall Michael being
>around (and being helpful) when I first set foot in r.a.s., which was
>a looooooong time ago.
Another time, I did an error when I replyed, and the message was heading for
the guy before Micheal in the thread. LOL like if I dunno who is M.E.Carver
:)
Lol very funny ! and I agree with you that the quality of the r.a.s. posting
isnt very good since 1week. Not my fault <g>
Fran?ois Mnard,
Helped in the creation of rec.autos.simulators
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
With great respect,
May the downforce be with you,
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)
ymenard on NROS, sponsored by
http://www.awpss.com/
SimRacing director, AWPSS
- *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -
Quoted text (14 lines)
>> >- ymenard, in a fit of egomania the likes of which hasn't been seen >> >since Napoleonic France, unilateraly declared himself Lord and Master >> >of this newsgroup (you're not *short* are you?) >> >- there were about 3,000 flames in reponse, most making the obvious >> >point that ymenard had no such authority, couldn't make r.a.s. >> >moderated (or anything else) if his life depended on, and was >> >basically the biggest ass in the entire history of usenet (despite >> >fierce competion from such halls of calm, rational debate as >> >games.action) >Hi Eric, >Dont forget, he's only a kid, his typing fingers get ahead of his brain >quite often<g>!Agreed. There *is* somewhere safe for developers - the Sports Sim forum
on Compuserve as John mentioned. Mike Lescault (sp?) frequents it and
provides valuable information.
Personally, I would strongly support a moderated r.a.s because I want the
reasoned discussion that would be available and I know that most people
aren't going to pay for Compuserve, however much John & I promote it <g>
An un-moderated r.a.s should exist alongside because the speedy flow of
information is not really possible with a moderated forum unless someone
has a _lot_ of free time ;-)
Not a favoured solution for me. Most email clients are very poor at
threading and I find mailing lists unwieldy if there are more than a
handful of posts a day. It may also be harder for people to get access to
- for every idiot out there there are 100 sensible people following
r.a.s, even if they are not actively posting.
Indeed. There always that one guy who can be guaranteed to raise a
chuckle or twenty seven <g>
Cheers,
Richard
>What? $50 is a lot of money for a piece of software that has not passed the
>beta-stage yet.....
How many software purchases have you made that were beyond the beta
stage at that price point? Look at the list of bugs found already in
Quake II, I don't recall anything that I've purchased that didn't have
some bugs (especially in the simulator arena (All of Papyrus' series,
the infamous Falcon 3.0 etc). The point is whether or not the
developer will fix it. I believe MS will and therefore consider it
value.
I really don't think $50 is a lot of money for a sim. If you are
playing modern sims, you have spent thousands in hardware costs, pay
an ISP for the Internet, etc. You can't take a person out to a nice
restuarant and see a movie for that amount of money.
Regards,
Jeff Haas
Quoted text (9 lines)
>As for attempts to change or moderate r.a.s., I would certainly be one >supporter of it. I wasn't to keen on the idea originally, but in the >last couple of weeks I've seen far too many messages sent purely for >the purpose of busing someone, and far too few for the purpose of >having any kind of discussion. Randy, Joe, Jeff, Jim, there's a few >managing to continue a reasonable discussion, but the S/N ratio >overall has taken a nosedive. Not the fault of CPR, but it really has >been one of the worst things ever for this newsgroup (eclipsed only by >a certain god...) :)Agreed, good post. Nothing wrong with adding another, moderated forum,
but I like r.a.s just the way it is. Ask yourself this question: can
you get reliable impressions of racing games/sims by reading about
them here? In my case the answer is most certainly yes. That mean's
the S part of the S/N ratio here is damn valuable, and I don't want
that changed.
Joe
Hmmmm. let's see:
Grand Prix - Microprose (for Atari 1040, early 90's?)
Indycar 1 - Papyrus
Indycar 2 - Papyrus
Nascar 1 - Papyrus
Nascar 2 - Papyrus
Grand Prix 2 - Microprose
(all these sims I have bought for less than Fl 100,-, that is app. US$50.-)
I hope that the patch will be the key to unlock the beauty of CPR. If it
get's
thumps up here at RAS I will certainly go out and buy this title. But I am
still very happy with ICR2-3D ;-)
Cheers,
Harald
And Jeff, I would like to add that I think, that what I read about being
missed in CPR cannot be compared with the minor flaws of N1,N2,ICR1 and
ICR2.
Cheers,
Harald
(forgot this line in my previous post, dammit)
> >What? $50 is a lot of money for a piece of software that has not passed the
> >beta-stage yet.....
> How many software purchases have you made that were beyond the beta
> stage at that price point?
Ignoring Papy titles, as I'd be unavoidably biased: Diablo, WarCraft,
MicroMachines, Goldeneye64, Mario64, MarioKart64, GameDay 1 for PSX,
Destruction Derby 1 for PSX, ...
Still have a point?
---Jim
Quoted text (19 lines)
> >What? $50 is a lot of money for a piece of software that has not passed the > >beta-stage yet..... > How many software purchases have you made that were beyond the beta > stage at that price point? Look at the list of bugs found already in > Quake II, I don't recall anything that I've purchased that didn't have > some bugs (especially in the simulator arena (All of Papyrus' series, > the infamous Falcon 3.0 etc). The point is whether or not the > developer will fix it. I believe MS will and therefore consider it > value. > I really don't think $50 is a lot of money for a sim. If you are > playing modern sims, you have spent thousands in hardware costs, pay > an ISP for the Internet, etc. You can't take a person out to a nice > restuarant and see a movie for that amount of money. > Regards, > Jeff HaasQuoted text (23 lines)
> Just to make it crystal clear, neither Michael nor I had anything to do > with this kid's delusions of power. Either he fabricated this entire > deal or it was a set up, with someone telling him this stuff hoping he'd > actually be naive or stupid enough to fall for it. I'm pretty sure the > former is what happened. If not, I'm kind of upset I was left out of > the joke... =( > All in all it was still quite a good laugh. > -- > Eric T. Busch > [link lost in import] > an old ymenard quote... > >"First of all, I was named by the Top 15 SimRacers on the 'net, so I > >didn't elected myself as the leader of r.a.s. It was inside a chat of > >those important people that they decided to have an official leader of > >r.a.s. They discussed on who it should be, and they arrived at the > >conclusion that it should be me, but with restrictions. Eric T. Busch > >and Micheal E.Carver don't have time now like me to spend on r.a.s., > >so I said yes when they proposed me the "job"...> >I think there is room for both a moderated and non-moderated newsgroup
> >for r.a.s. There are good things and bad things about moderated
> >newsgroups. One of the off-shoots of the discussion about splitting up
> >r.a.s., was the possibility of a moderated group to discuss development
> >and "enhancements" to simulation programs. One that would allow the
> >developers a place to visit in relative peace.
A list server still serves that role better, as you "know" who's
reading it. That's a pretty important distinction for developers, who
might not want a given comment to be public and forever archived in
DejaNews, etc.
Too bad CIS doesn't elect to provide it as a non-proprietary service.
The real problem with a moderated group is the criteria for culling
"bad" posts. Misc.taxes.moderated is very successful, because***
Adams can trivially determine: "Is this post related to taxes? [and
does it not suggest tax protest or evasion]" How do
we cull r.a.s.m? "Is this post related to auto sims?"? Well, most of
the posts that aren't "reasoned discussion" are still related to sims,
so culling based on that simple to evaluate question is next to
useless. (I already score away the *** ads, most MMFs, all the
$1000/wk, as I imagine most do.)
What problem would people like solved by r.a.s.m and how do you
propose moderating?
You could have a process do the bulk of moderation, particularly if
you are willing to say that persons X, Y, and Z are suitable for
auto-approval by this process. But then, those posts show up noticably
faster than human-approved posts, and I think in general it's not a
very good solution to whatever the perceived problems that exist in
r.a.s. right now.
Get a less crippled email client. If you want a great one that's free
and completely customizable, use Gnus (for Emacs)! Granted, listserv
messages don't come with references for true threading, but gnus sorts
by subject fairly nicely.
---Jim
(snip)
Hear, hear
I don`t really know the difference between moderated and unmoderated
newsgroups, but if this would mean a chance for us to have some nice
discussions where the softwarehouses could be involved, I`m for it
Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
Now I'm really jealous, Jim. ;)
Dave Sparks (TEN ID: davids)
OSCAR Racing Series: http://www.synapse.net/~crankstr/oscar
IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html-ssi
