MS have brought it on themselves IMO

It is genuinely sad that someone from the CPR team seems to have now had his fill of ras comments and has packed up his bag and gone home. I really do believe though that the CPR people have brought the large amount of ill reviews upon themselves to a very large extent. Or, it is probably more accurate to say, that Microsoft has brought in upon themselves. I can't believe that they didn't realise how bad their offering is. Surly they are not stupid. They have set out, in their own words, to make the best racing simulator available. Simple logic insists that to make this claim you must be familiar with what the current state of the art is. To make this kind of claim without being knowledgable about the competition really would be stupid. What about their beta testers ? Who did they use for heavens sake ? Its very hard to accept that beta testers who are in any way familiar with the genre would have returned a thumbs up with this program. Did they use the same folks how last week tested a new spreadsheet system, and the week before that a word processor feature ? Did they use the same people who test Flight Sim, who may or may not have any interest or expertise in testing a racing sim ? If they used testers of any insight and perception then they must have been aware of this programs shortcomings. It they used inappropriate testers then that's a very bad mistake on their part in any case. ( They could do lot worse than getting some of the folks from ras to test for them if they're serious ). Because I find it hard to believe that they could be that silly I have to conclude that they were fully aware about how far short of the mark they were. That they still released CPR makes me strongly assume that they had orders from MS that it must be in the shops for Christmas. In this case there is nothing Dean or any of the team could do about it except resign. When the big boss pulls a string you jump. Dean & Co. then have the impossible task to try to justify the programs numerous obvious problems when the only real excuse is economic impatience, greed, and a considerable amount of end user disregard on the part of MS. The CART team would not be allowed to say in public that they knew it was a lemon but MS, their boss, forced the early release. Instead they are left in a indefensible position of trying to convince everyone that it really is good. I suggest that, just as I can't accept they are as stupid as their current predicament would tend to imply, we are not so stupid as to be palmed off with thin excuses that ultimately hold no water. MSs greed and disregard for their clients are the bogy here square and sure. For a number of reasons, many which have been stated more than once on ras, Cart Precision Racing does not even approach the upper rugs upon which several other sims already stand. It not only hasn't pushed the art form but has not even made it into the ballpark of what's already around. There is a patch coming out which may or may not go a long way to remedy the situation. Its notable though that some of the items that the patch addresses are so basic and are so obviously wrong in the original program one has to again wonder about the integrity and competence of the beta testers. I even have to wonder if in fact it really was beta tested by anyone who is used to racing sims at all. Maybe the Christmas rush deadline excluded all but the most rudimentary inappropriate outside scrutiny if any. Frankly I feel sympathy for Dean and the CPR team because there are the meat in the sandwich. On one side MS tells them to get it out regardless without respect or regard to either the end users or to the better conscience of the programmers themselves. On the other side is a very well educated and experienced group of sim racers who are well familiar with where the state of the art is at and what is and isn't acceptable in a racing simulator. The CART people really can't put the blame where is rightly belongs, at MSs' door, unless they all want to get fired. They have to cop it sweet and adopt an alls well that ends well approach. So now at least one CPR person is fed up with trying to justify themselves and have quite ras. That's a pity to be sure. But are we expected to be a bunch of little puppies that'll accept a pat on the head and a old soup bone and wag our tails ? Please don't expect us to act like we are totally ignorant of which way is up within this genre. I dare say that more than a few of the people on ras have put in thousands of hours gaining expertise, not only through gameplay, but by reading and researching the subject matter. I for one, am I'm nothing special, have read numerous books and articles about car design and racing car engineering etc. Its been my hobby for a long time. I look forward to the patch. I hope that is does a lot to improve the very obvious problems. I hope the track editor is good. I hope that further enhancements and patches make us all forget out initial disappointments. I, like many here, really do want new offerings to be good and worthwhile. Best Regards to the CPR team and all. Phooey on MS yet again. Phillip McNelley

On 11 Dec 1997 12:11:36 GMT, "Phillip McNelley" <A lot of well considered opinion snipped> That's very much my take on the release of CPR, although the unfortunate thing about this theory is that it can never be proven. No-one from MS is likely to say "That's right, that's what we did" (although I'd respect them a lot more if they did), but similarly if that is NOT what happened then anyone who says that is unlikely to be believed. The frustrating thing in all this, apparent from the dissing Dean received, is that CPR really was almost a very fun game. With a wider remit, more time and more latitude I think it could have been really excellent. Such projects always involve compromise, and I can only hope that the patch can replace what was compromised in terms of development time to get it out on the allotted schedule. Cheers! John

Of course they brought it on themselves... If the fools wouldn't have decided to try and make a racing sim, all this would have never happened... Is that what we'd all prefer? Maybe we should all go back to playing "Speedway" (or whatever it was called) on the Oddessy 2... Anyone remember saying this in their heads? "Left... right... left... left,right,left... left... right... left,right" :-) - Mike. ==================================================== Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"... ====================================================

This comment by John Wallace and the previous one by Phillip McNelley are examples of the kind of critical comments which DID NOT make Dean leave. The reason he left is too many crossed the line between constructive criticism, and just plain rudeness. Some were crude, abrasive, completely unfair, and worst of all, the man was called a LIAR. He was also told he was here just to sell copies of CPR. I have news for some of you. This newsgroup is irrelevent as a marketing tool. If it were relevent, all the sim companies would be here constantly. ADVERTI***TS sell CPR. Regardless oof the postings here, CPR will sell hundreds of thousands of copies. Dean was here, mostly, to receive feedback to improve the product, and provide important info. to the core group of *** sim users. He went beyond that and helped people with individual problems, which, let's face it, he could of easily referred to Microsoft or just ignored. NO OTHER SIM DEVELOPERS ARE HERE. That's a key point to remember. We on r.a.s. are IRRELEVENT as a marketing tool. You had one product developer who was here trying to receive feedback to make this the best sim, NOT the best selling sim, and he was driven away because some people feel so small and need to put Microsoft in it's place, and save the world form it's tyranny. What a joke. David G Fisher

Quoted text (14 lines)

> On 11 Dec 1997 12:11:36 GMT, "Phillip McNelley" > <A lot of well considered opinion snipped> > The frustrating thing in all this, apparent from the dissing Dean > received, is that CPR really was almost a very fun game. With a wider > remit, more time and more latitude I think it could have been really > excellent. Such projects always involve compromise, and I can only > hope that the patch can replace what was compromised in terms of > development time to get it out on the allotted schedule. > Cheers! > John

David, Some good points. RAS is not a major marketing tool. If the ONLY people who purchased their products were those who post or read RAS then ALL the sim makers would be out of business real fast!!! This news group is a small sample of a much larger population of game (sim) purchasers. I think the most Dean or Microsoft in general could want to get from this newsgoup is info to make this and future releases better. But a few of you made sure that wont happen from constructive input from this newsgroup. Congratulations. Scott B. Husted [link lost in import: /~sbhusted]

Quoted text (38 lines)

> This comment by John Wallace and the previous one by Phillip McNelley are > examples of the kind of critical comments which DID NOT make Dean leave. > The reason he left is too many crossed the line between constructive > criticism, and just plain rudeness. Some were crude, abrasive, completely > unfair, and worst of all, the man was called a LIAR. He was also told he > was here just to sell copies of CPR. I have news for some of you. This > newsgroup is irrelevent as a marketing tool. If it were relevent, all the > sim companies would be here constantly. ADVERTI***TS sell CPR. Regardless > oof the postings here, CPR will sell hundreds of thousands of copies. Dean > was here, mostly, to receive feedback to improve the product, and provide > important info. to the core group of *** sim users. He went beyond > that and helped people with individual problems, which, let's face it, he > could of easily referred to Microsoft or just ignored. NO OTHER SIM > DEVELOPERS ARE HERE. That's a key point to remember. We on r.a.s. are > IRRELEVENT as a marketing tool. You had one product developer who was here > trying to receive feedback to make this the best sim, NOT the best selling > sim, and he was driven away because some people feel so small and need to > put Microsoft in it's place, and save the world form it's tyranny. What a > joke. > David G Fisher > > On 11 Dec 1997 12:11:36 GMT, "Phillip McNelley" > > <A lot of well considered opinion snipped> > > The frustrating thing in all this, apparent from the dissing Dean > > received, is that CPR really was almost a very fun game. With a wider > > remit, more time and more latitude I think it could have been really > > excellent. Such projects always involve compromise, and I can only > > hope that the patch can replace what was compromised in terms of > > development time to get it out on the allotted schedule. > > Cheers! > > John

Just because the developers aren't actively posting doesn't mean that they aren't listening... -- Eric T. Busch http://ebusch.akorn.net >NO OTHER SIM DEVELOPERS ARE HERE. That's a key point to remember. >We on r.a.s. are IRRELEVENT as a marketing tool.

Hi Phillip, I have to agree with just about everything you said. Perhaps worth noting that they posted on the MS web site that "no-one at MS or TRI ever got below 1:12 at Laguna Seca" (or words to that effect). CPR is crying out for input from experienced sim racers. It could be a really great sim - many of the aspects are already there - but when you can beat the pre-release times by 5 seconds within half an hour of track time.... :(( Cheers, Richard

>Just because the developers aren't actively posting doesn't mean that >they aren't listening... LOL Eric.... You just made this *** theory available to everybody.... I will have to kill you now ;) shhhhhhttttt...... You shouldn't had told this :) Do you really all think that NO company that makes a simulation racing title come here. Come on, I though you were more intelligent than that ! I had concrete proofs about that when somebody from a simracing company e-mailed me and said that he was reading r.a.s. and wanted to talk with me about a subject by e-mail. It's pretty simple. Some people from Micro$oft reads r.a.s. (probably still Dean, you don't go away without looking at the results), Papyrus employees, I heard one day that Mr.Crammond read some posts when Gp2 went out (AFAIK I think in a interview he said that), There's also Codemaster people, Psygnosis, etc... (I don't remember the others sorry !). Fran?ois Mnard, Creator, rec.autos.simulators With great respect, May the downforce be with you, Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) ymenard on NROS, sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ SimRacing director, AWPSS - *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -

This newsgroup does not sell copies of CPR or any other sim. Respond to my posting in it's entirety. They may listen to get feedback to improve it's product, but the newsgroup itself is still irrelevent as a marketing tool. Dean was not here to sell copies of CPR, he was here to IMPROVE the product and now he's gone due to bullshit from idiots. Basically he felt he was waisting his time and he was right. Dave > >Just because the developers aren't actively posting doesn't mean that > >they aren't listening... > LOL Eric.... You just made this *** theory available to everybody....

How does CPR 1.0 differ from other Microsoft 1.0 products? :) Randy

Quoted text (9 lines)

>The frustrating thing in all this, apparent from the dissing Dean >received, is that CPR really was almost a very fun game. With a wider >remit, more time and more latitude I think it could have been really >excellent. Such projects always involve compromise, and I can only >hope that the patch can replace what was compromised in terms of >development time to get it out on the allotted schedule. >Cheers! >John

Actually in the last couple of weeks I've seen Bernie Yee of EA Sports, Mike Lescault of Papyrus, some of the Codemasters guys, and you can bet your bottom dollar that many other companies will be lurking. Whether or not they want to risk getting their asses flamed to a crisp is a decision they have to make, but listening in gives some good info if you can separate out that wheat and chaff. Cheers! John

>How does CPR 1.0 differ from other Microsoft 1.0 products? :) >Randy Regardless of who is still here, who will be back, or who will be "run off to the castle tower by an angry torch carrying mob", the above is a very good point. I just bought my first flight sim, and it is AWESOME! And it is MICRO$OFT, and it is version 8 of this thing. Hopefully it doesn't take quite that many revisions for them to get a driving sim right (read: appeals to/satisfies the masses). Anyway keep throwing out that constructive criticism, even if no one from the intended target hears (reads) it someone from XYZ Software will see it & hopefully utilize that info. Altho...it sounds like no one at wherever Andretti racing came from can read, or drive, or program ;-))). Boy, with my .02 cents thrown in here, I think r.a.s., if we convert to a communal/socialist system would have $1.14 from this thread alone. Happy Lappin' Wade Tschida

Quoted text (7 lines)

> This newsgroup does not sell copies of CPR or any other sim. Respond to my > posting in it's entirety. They may listen to get feedback to improve it's > product, but the newsgroup itself is still irrelevent as a marketing tool. > Dean was not here to sell copies of CPR, he was here to IMPROVE the product > and now he's gone due to bullshit from idiots. Basically he felt he was > waisting his time and he was right. > Dave

Dave, excellent post, well said :)! Trev