Thanks for the in-depth review Alison.
I'd like to take a moment to respond.
Since there are many (many) people enjoying CPR right now I would
guess (and our customer support logs confirm) that many of
the quirks you describe appear to be unique to your system - and you have
simply
missed features that address some (but not all) of your complaints.
"Random frame rate generator" - new one on me - and I have been here on ras
since the
release. The NG has been extremely vocal - but this one has never come up.
Framerates
obviously vary according to how much work is going on, but it is consistent
in consistent situations.
"How do you sort out the chasis?" - try a Test Session (in the garage
screen)
"Excellent" Default Setups. In their early advertising, Microsoft made much
of how "unlike other sims, CPR comes with excellent setups." - can you show
me where you saw this? We have _never_ claimed the defaults were good -
average at best. See any of my earlier FAQ postings on this.
"Popup control problems" are unique to your video card and drivers - they
work.
Like your "random frame rate" problem - you should run in software rendering
mode
to test the program itself without your hardware config problems masking the
true cause.
"Brake bias" keys are fine tuning - try the "Brake Proportioning" slider in
the garage.
"OS corruption"? - I think we'd have heard about this one by now if it was
for real.
However, you have identified some items that have been described by others
and
are being addressed in the patch - namely:-
* null zone slider for controllers for better straightline stability
* AI improvements
* pit lane autopilot
So you have caught some real items that we are aware of - and are
addressing.
But I think you have also managed to lay blame for a variety of your system
problems
on the game. Check the CPR postings here on ras - these should give you a
good idea
of what others are seeing - and not seeing.
Here's a posting from ras just yesterday that doesn't sound consistent with
your
experience ...
Trevor Dwyer: Re: CPR on low end computer?
"I run it on a 3dfx 200mhz FF system and it runs beautifully.
I also run on a Pentium 60 and Pentium 90 laptops. It runs slow (but runs)
on a 60 and runs fine on a 90.
The difference can be almost compared to the way quake runs normal and then
the GL version.
Note how many followers did Quake get before the advent of 3d cards?
Highly recommend this game, as I previously did not play many games. Since I
got this game and this is the honest truth, I know own a ForceFeedback, have
most
of the top twenty pc games and am pulling my hair out over how I can create
a
texture (I have the scheme and idea) to put on my own car with absolutley no
artistic skills!!
Enjoyable to the extreme!
Best Regards
Trevor Dwyer"
★ Landmark threadFlame warEagle Woman's CPR review prompts Microsoft rep to quit r.a.s.
Alison (Eagle Woman) posted a critical review of CART Precision Racing, and Microsoft's Dean (CART Team) disputed it, arguing many problems were specific to her system. After a post claiming Microsoft no longer listened to criticism, Dean announced he was leaving the newsgroup like other sim publishers. The thread erupted into a long fight over whether critics had driven him away or he had overreacted, with personal attacks lasting until late December.
With Dean Lester (Microsoft CART Team)
Automated summary.
I've posted a review of Microsoft's CART Precision Racing on my Eagle
Woman Racing Sims Web site:
http://www.simracing.com/~alison/sims/cpr.htm [address restored]
The review is quite extensive, so I am not posting it in its entirety on
this newsgroup out of deference to those with limited bandwidth.
However, I will synopsize it.
I really wanted to like this game. At first glance, I was quite
impressed with its beautiful, well thought out menus, extensive car
setup features, excellent engine and tire-squealing sounds, and its
curb-hopping, tire-smoking, ***-laying graphics.
However, after struggling for many hours to work around some
showstopping bugs, I found that I must agree with John Wallace, who
concluded that it flatters to deceive.
There are moments when the awesome potential shows through. At Long
Beach, when I'd momentarily worked around the worst of the bugs, I had a
few laps where I was able to fling the car through the turn 1, 2, 3, 4
complex as I think it was meant to be done, the inside tires just
nicking the curbs, the car skittering a little under throttle, engine
wailing as it went up through the gears out of turn 4...Ah! It was
beautiful!
But. If only!
I tried CPR on two different machines, with two different controllers,
and two different Rendition 3D cards. On both machines, I encountered
bugs which were sufficiently serious to render the game essentially
unplayable. One of these bugs was common to both machines, while each
machine also displayed an additional showstopping bug, for which I could
find no acceptable workaround.
In addition, I encountered a considerable array of less serious bugs,
and numerous design flaws which ranged from mildly annoying quirks to
the omission of essential features.
Finally, the game installation corrupted the operating system on one of
my machines. I was able to play it after installation, but immediately
after that, I found that the machine would no longer boot into Windows
95. I had to restore its registry and configuration files from a
configuration backup.
The anticipation of the superb racing experience promised by the game's
better features amplified my ultimate disappointment - and extreme
frustration. As I encountered one critical design error after another,
I found myself wondering over and over again, "Did any of the developers
or designers of this 'simulation' even *try* ICR2/Rendition?" Or GP2?
Or SODA?
Unfortunately, a product so riddled with bugs and design blunders can
only be considered a failure. After many, many hours of trying - and
failing - to get it to work well enough to be playable, the impression
I'm left with is that this is a project just entering the alpha stage.
Yet, somehow, it's been released.
Game-play bugs and design flaws aside, the corruption of my Windows 95
configuration is a horror. No product whose installation risks hosing
my operating system is worth a moment of my time, or a penny of my
money.
After months of eager anticipation, I find that I am very sorry I bought
Microsoft CART Precision Racing. If you make the same mistake, don't
say you weren't warned!
***
If you disagree with my experiences and conclusions, please read the
complete review at http://www.simracing.com/~alison/sims/cpr.htm [address restored]
before responding.
Alison
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
I forgot to add that you didn't cover CPR's extensive multiplayer features
at all - a pretty
huge omission in any CPR review seeing as how most people who have spent
time with
the program rate this as one of the strongest points of the sim and a huge
differentiator
from the competition.
You wrote ...
"I've read about ... how great CPR is for networked racing (one of my
primary interests)
but frankly, how can I get e***d about racing if I can't even drive the
damn car down
the straightaways?"
A balanced review covers the strengths as well as the weaknesses of a game
... "I don't like this feature
so I'm not going to bother reviewing this other feature." Ouch.
You also quote as one of your "other voices" from someone who ...
"downladed CART Precision Racing off the Internet, 35x1.44meg disks. It's
the full packaged
version, minus the movies."
No comment ... !
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:44 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)"
<[email hidden]> wrote:
I have? Well, let's see...
>"Random frame rate generator" - new one on me - and I have been here on ras
>since the
>release. The NG has been extremely vocal - but this one has never come up.
>Framerates
>obviously vary according to how much work is going on, but it is consistent
>in consistent situations.
Not! Dean, that's why I was *so* specific about this bug. Without
changing *any* settings whatsoever, simply clicking the mouse to exit
full-screen mode, and then hitting F4 to re-enter full-screen mode, the
frame rate will drop from mid-20's to under 15. Same place on the
track. No other traffic - I'm in a Test Session. The difference is
impossible to miss: one time, the frame rate is fluid, fast, almost as
good as ICR2/Rendition. The next time, the frame rate is so slow that I
can see the braking markers moving across the screen and pausing - chop,
chop, chop.
I spent *many* hours verifying this bug, and looking for a workaround,
including turning off all graphics options and everything else I could
think of that could possibly affect the frame rate, including turning
off the dash, the pit board, shrinking the display area, changing the
sound options, turning off interrupts while polling the joystick.
Everything I could find. The frame rate was still glaringly
inconsistent between two runs with the same settings.
There *is* a bug here, Dean. I suspect that one reason there are so
many people in the newsgroup complaining about frame rate is that this
bug appears only on some systems and not on others. It may be a
configuration problem, or an incompatibility with drivers.
I plan to try de-installing my Sierra Rendition drivers and installing
the Verite drivers that come with DirectX 5 to see if that helps. If it
does, I'll post something here.
>"How do you sort out the chasis?" - try a Test Session (in the garage
>screen)
Excuse me. Dean, how do you think I managed to do a 52 flat at Long
Beach? Certainly not with any of the supplied setups! Yes, I did
manage to find the garage and I did test sessions for many hours before
I tried a race.
You have quoted me out of context here, Dean. My question was, "How do
you sort out the chassis without tire temperatures?" This question
still stands. How can you set tire pressures, camber, spring and shock
rates, and other parameters without knowing the tire temperatures on the
inner edge, the middle, and the outer edge of the tread of each tire?
Tie temperature is a fundamental piece of information for any race
engineer! I doubt if *any* professional race team in the world ever
goes to the race track without tire temperature guages and lots of
notepaper. Sure, I can work on the setup in the garage, but without
tire temps, I'm really shooting in the dark. See Steve Smith's
excellent discussion of this issue in "Winning", a book contained in
Papyrus' recent re-release of ICR2 as CART Racing.
Incidentally CPR's built-in "race engineer" seems totally unaware of
tire temps, although I believe he will tweak tire pressures and camber
based on rather simplistic criteria - and he's often wrong. For
example, if I complain to him that my car understeers in slow corners,
he'll keep cranking in more negative camber at the front till both sides
are at the limit of 4.0. But the car still pushes till I tweak
something else.
>"Excellent" Default Setups. In their early advertising, Microsoft made much
>of how "unlike other sims, CPR comes with excellent setups." - can you show
>me where you saw this? We have _never_ claimed the defaults were good -
>average at best. See any of my earlier FAQ postings on this.
Grr. Zillions of magazines and Web pages; I'm sorry, I can't lay my
hands on this ad now. If I find it, I'll certainly let you know.
>"Popup control problems" are unique to your video card and drivers - they
>work.
Excuse me, Dean, but I have been in touch with several other people who
encountered this problem. It's not unique to me. There have been
postings on this newsgroup about them as well. It *may* be specific to
Rendition cards, or certain editions of Rendition drivers, but I'm not
the only one having this problem.
>Like your "random frame rate" problem - you should run in software rendering
>mode
>to test the program itself without your hardware config problems masking the
>true cause.
As I said, I tried turning off hardware acceleration to work around the
random frame rate problem, to no avail. The OS on the other system,
where the popup problem occurred, got hosed before I could try this to
work around the popup problem, and I'm certainly not going to risk
trying it again on that system unless I get some real understanding
about why the OS got hosed.
>"Brake bias" keys are fine tuning - try the "Brake Proportioning" slider in
>the garage.
I've had the Brake Proportioning slider to both ends of its range, and
the car still plows relentlessly under braking. Trail braking (did any
of you guys ever go to Skip Barber Racing School?) is impossible with
any setup I tried.
>"OS corruption"? - I think we'd have heard about this one by now if it was
>for real.
Are you calling me a liar, or just saying I'm stupid? My machine was
running fine; I installed CPR, ran it once, powered down normally after
exiting the game, and when I powered up again a day or two later, I
could not get into Windows. I had to restore the registry and
configuration files from a backup to get the machine to enter Windows.
That's good! I was glad to read your post about the patch, and am
looking forward to it. I should also note that your adjustable car and
track gammas should cure my complaints about the AI cars being
invisible. And perhaps the more precise control over graphics settings
will help with some of my other problems.
>But I think you have also managed to lay blame for a variety of your system
>problems
>on the game.
Well, if I have system problems, why does SODA run fine on both systems?
Not to mention a wide variety of other programs.
>Check the CPR postings here on ras - these should give you a
>good idea
>of what others are seeing - and not seeing.
Yes, thanks, I have spent several hours reading through these posts just
now. Seems like some people love CPR, while others - many of them
experienced sim racers - have many of the same issues I have with the
game.
Dean, I am glad that Trevor is enjoying the game, and is getting good
results on his system. However, he has totally different machines than
I do. It does not appear that he has Rendition cards in any of his
machines.
The point here is that the game does not run consistently or predictably
on a given configuration, and that difficulties appear on some machines
that do not appear on others. Granted, these problems are elusive and
may be difficult to reproduce in your lab. That is one of the problems
I see with the Windows95/DirectX platform; it is often not consistent
from one machine to another, even when the machines are very similar.
Tracking down the cause of anomolies can be very difficult and
time-consuming. Many people, including on this newsgroup, seem to take
the expedient measure of trying different drivers for their video cards,
and sometimes that fixes whatever problem. Others put the game on the
shelf.
How much testing have you done with machines with only Rendition cards
in them? Have you tested Sierra's latest drivers, or those of other
manufacturers of Rendition cards? With different screen resolutions?
On TX, VX, and HX motherboards, with SDRAM as well as EDO and non-EDO
RAM? With a variety of sound cards, game controller cards, modems and
network cards?
I know it's impossible to test every possible combination, but I find it
very frustrating to conduct such extensive testing on my own machines,
document it carefully, and then have my difficulties written off by you
as system configuration problems. If your team could have missed such
fundamental issues as the radically incorrect null zone in the steering,
the omission of tire temperatures, ludicrous AI, inadequate steering
lock...you get the point...then isn't is possible that they have missed
some other issues that show up only on certain hardware configurations?
Particularly if those hardware configurations include hardware that
isn't the state of the art at the moment? Hardware that is strongly
linked with CPR's most formidable competitor, and maybe doesn't get
tested on a whole lot in-house at Terminal Reality or Microsoft?
Dean, I appreciate your reply, and I appreciate your presence in this
newsgroup very much. I am aware of how different this is when compared
with certain other sim publishers, some of whom seem to have never
posted anything to it at all.
I'm also still hopeful about CPR. There are a lot of things
...
read more »
Quoted text (9 lines)
>Thanks for the in-depth review Alison. >I'd like to take a moment to respond. >Since there are many (many) people enjoying CPR right now I would >guess (and our customer support logs confirm) that many of >the quirks you describe appear to be unique to your system - and you have >simply >missed features that address some (but not all) of your complaints.Quoted text (10 lines)
>However, you have identified some items that have been described by others >and >are being addressed in the patch - namely:- >* null zone slider for controllers for better straightline stability >* AI improvements >* pit lane autopilot >So you have caught some real items that we are aware of - and are >addressing.Quoted text (16 lines)
>Here's a posting from ras just yesterday that doesn't sound consistent with >your >experience ... >Trevor Dwyer: Re: CPR on low end computer? >"I run it on a 3dfx 200mhz FF system and it runs beautifully. >I also run on a Pentium 60 and Pentium 90 laptops. It runs slow (but runs) >on a 60 and runs fine on a 90.[snip] >Highly recommend this game...[snip] >Enjoyable to the extreme! >Trevor Dwyer"On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:44 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)"
>"How do you sort out the chasis?" - try a Test Session (in the garage
>screen)
"How do you sort out the chassis...when lack of tire temps prevent
adjustment of camber, toe-in and toe-out (and pressure to a lesser
extent), and when woolly steering gets in the way of what the car is
telling you?". The test session solves none of these problems,
although I hope that the patch will, at least for the woolly steering.
I doubt that tire temps could be added, which is a shame since this is
a pretty big omission considering several setup adjustments were
included which heavily rely upon tire temp readings.
I've seen other posts desribing how two systems with identical
settings in the game configuration would display trackside objects at
different times. The more powerful system earlier and the less
powerful system later. I think you touched on this before advising
that there was no "behind the scenes" adjustment of the draw ahead
setting, but I guess people will believe what they see.
In my experience you need to run with a rear bias in CPR to make best
use of the grip served up to you (whereas generally racecars run
60-70% front bias), and secondly the***pit adjustment needs to be
able to cope with different rates of tyre wear front and rear as well
as the shifting weight distribution as fuel load drops. It needs to be
much more than a fine tuning, the effects should be noticable.
I read that, but Dean this guy was happy running CPR on a P60! Okay,
everyone has their point of view, but "CPR runs on a 60 and fine on a
90" isn't a point of view I would point to as being representative. I
personally tried the CPR demo on a P225MMX with 60Mhz 3dFX and found
it extremely disappointing. I can't even begin to imagine it on an
unaccelerated P60... <shudder>
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (31 lines)
> On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:44 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)" > >Thanks for the in-depth review Alison. > >I'd like to take a moment to respond. > >Since there are many (many) people enjoying CPR right now I would > >guess (and our customer support logs confirm) that many of > >the quirks you describe appear to be unique to your system - and you have > >simply > >missed features that address some (but not all) of your complaints. > I have? Well, let's see... > >"Random frame rate generator" - new one on me - and I have been here on ras > >since the > >release. The NG has been extremely vocal - but this one has never come up. > >Framerates > >obviously vary according to how much work is going on, but it is consistent > >in consistent situations. > Not! Dean, that's why I was *so* specific about this bug. Without > changing *any* settings whatsoever, simply clicking the mouse to exit > full-screen mode, and then hitting F4 to re-enter full-screen mode, the > frame rate will drop from mid-20's to under 15. Same place on the > track. No other traffic - I'm in a Test Session. The difference is > impossible to miss: one time, the frame rate is fluid, fast, almost as > good as ICR2/Rendition. The next time, the frame rate is so slow that I > can see the braking markers moving across the screen and pausing - chop, > chop, chop.Alison,
OK - let's see if we can get to the bottom of this. I believe you had a bad
experience on your system - that's my point - on_your_system.
Frame rate variation - let's try this - hardware acceleration only works
full screen - if you have the menus_up_the_game_is_software_only. Press F4
to toggle menus/full screen. "The frame will drop from mid-20's to under 15"
as you run in h/w then s/ware. Let me know if this works.
Your comments on tire temps are noted by me. But please note that you didn't
describe the race engineer feature in your review either - another unique
CPR feature you missed.
"Grr. Zillions of magazines and Web pages; I'm sorry, I can't lay my hands
on this ad now.
If I find it, I'll certainly let you know."
Grr - please let me know when you find one - I reviewed EVERY piece of
marketing on this game.
"It *may* be specific to Rendition cards, or certain editions of Rendition
drivers, but I'm not the only one having this problem." -AGREED. That's why
I asked you try software only mode to test the game's features - clipping
distance controls work in the game but you claim they do not - Rendition's
drivers are the problem. We have contacted them already about this.
"Are you calling me a liar, or just saying I'm stupid?" - No to both
questions. I AM saying you laid the blame for this problem on CPR. Show me
ONE other posting on ras implying CPR corrupts the OS - this is a
_serious_allegation_ and I request that you provide me some evidence that
this was due to our game. One other posting would be enough for me to go and
investigate this problem. Let me
know when you find one.
How much testing have you done with machines with only Rendition cards in
them?
Answer: 600 hours +
I suspect your h/w problems are related to your Rendition card and drivers.
Try a 3dfx card or software only mode - if you can't get a 3dfx card we'll
send you one. Along with the patch.
And please have a look at or mention the features you missed:-
Multiplayer
Race Engineer
Sound
Pi Analysis
Racing School
Head panning
Force feedback
Car paint tool
Upcoming track editor
Upcoming patch details
Thanks.
Alison Hine wrote in article <[email hidden]>...
ras
>>since the
>>release. The NG has been extremely vocal - but this one has never come up.
>>Framerates
>>obviously vary according to how much work is going on, but it is consistent
much
>>of how "unlike other sims, CPR comes with excellent setups." - can you show
rendering
>>mode
>>to test the program itself without your hardware config problems masking the
in
system
with
...
read more »
Quoted text (16 lines)
>On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:44 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)" ><[email hidden]> wrote: >>Thanks for the in-depth review Alison. >>I'd like to take a moment to respond. >>Since there are many (many) people enjoying CPR right now I would >>guess (and our customer support logs confirm) that many of >>the quirks you describe appear to be unique to your system - and you have >>simply >>missed features that address some (but not all) of your complaints. >I have? Well, let's see... >>"Random frame rate generator" - new one on me - and I have been here onQuoted text (60 lines)
>>in consistent situations. >Not! Dean, that's why I was *so* specific about this bug. Without >changing *any* settings whatsoever, simply clicking the mouse to exit >full-screen mode, and then hitting F4 to re-enter full-screen mode, the >frame rate will drop from mid-20's to under 15. Same place on the >track. No other traffic - I'm in a Test Session. The difference is >impossible to miss: one time, the frame rate is fluid, fast, almost as >good as ICR2/Rendition. The next time, the frame rate is so slow that I >can see the braking markers moving across the screen and pausing - chop, >chop, chop. >I spent *many* hours verifying this bug, and looking for a workaround, >including turning off all graphics options and everything else I could >think of that could possibly affect the frame rate, including turning >off the dash, the pit board, shrinking the display area, changing the >sound options, turning off interrupts while polling the joystick. >Everything I could find. The frame rate was still glaringly >inconsistent between two runs with the same settings. >There *is* a bug here, Dean. I suspect that one reason there are so >many people in the newsgroup complaining about frame rate is that this >bug appears only on some systems and not on others. It may be a >configuration problem, or an incompatibility with drivers. >I plan to try de-installing my Sierra Rendition drivers and installing >the Verite drivers that come with DirectX 5 to see if that helps. If it >does, I'll post something here. >>"How do you sort out the chasis?" - try a Test Session (in the garage >>screen) >Excuse me. Dean, how do you think I managed to do a 52 flat at Long >Beach? Certainly not with any of the supplied setups! Yes, I did >manage to find the garage and I did test sessions for many hours before >I tried a race. >You have quoted me out of context here, Dean. My question was, "How do >you sort out the chassis without tire temperatures?" This question >still stands. How can you set tire pressures, camber, spring and shock >rates, and other parameters without knowing the tire temperatures on the >inner edge, the middle, and the outer edge of the tread of each tire? >Tie temperature is a fundamental piece of information for any race >engineer! I doubt if *any* professional race team in the world ever >goes to the race track without tire temperature guages and lots of >notepaper. Sure, I can work on the setup in the garage, but without >tire temps, I'm really shooting in the dark. See Steve Smith's >excellent discussion of this issue in "Winning", a book contained in >Papyrus' recent re-release of ICR2 as CART Racing. >Incidentally CPR's built-in "race engineer" seems totally unaware of >tire temps, although I believe he will tweak tire pressures and camber >based on rather simplistic criteria - and he's often wrong. For >example, if I complain to him that my car understeers in slow corners, >he'll keep cranking in more negative camber at the front till both sides >are at the limit of 4.0. But the car still pushes till I tweak >something else. >>"Excellent" Default Setups. In their early advertising, Microsoft madeQuoted text (16 lines)
>>me where you saw this? We have _never_ claimed the defaults were good - >>average at best. See any of my earlier FAQ postings on this. >Grr. Zillions of magazines and Web pages; I'm sorry, I can't lay my >hands on this ad now. If I find it, I'll certainly let you know. >>"Popup control problems" are unique to your video card and drivers - they >>work. >Excuse me, Dean, but I have been in touch with several other people who >encountered this problem. It's not unique to me. There have been >postings on this newsgroup about them as well. It *may* be specific to >Rendition cards, or certain editions of Rendition drivers, but I'm not >the only one having this problem. >>Like your "random frame rate" problem - you should run in softwareQuoted text (10 lines)
>>true cause. >As I said, I tried turning off hardware acceleration to work around the >random frame rate problem, to no avail. The OS on the other system, >where the popup problem occurred, got hosed before I could try this to >work around the popup problem, and I'm certainly not going to risk >trying it again on that system unless I get some real understanding >about why the OS got hosed. >>"Brake bias" keys are fine tuning - try the "Brake Proportioning" sliderQuoted text (34 lines)
>>the garage. >I've had the Brake Proportioning slider to both ends of its range, and >the car still plows relentlessly under braking. Trail braking (did any >of you guys ever go to Skip Barber Racing School?) is impossible with >any setup I tried. >>"OS corruption"? - I think we'd have heard about this one by now if it was >>for real. >Are you calling me a liar, or just saying I'm stupid? My machine was >running fine; I installed CPR, ran it once, powered down normally after >exiting the game, and when I powered up again a day or two later, I >could not get into Windows. I had to restore the registry and >configuration files from a backup to get the machine to enter Windows. >>However, you have identified some items that have been described by others >>and >>are being addressed in the patch - namely:- >>* null zone slider for controllers for better straightline stability >>* AI improvements >>* pit lane autopilot >>So you have caught some real items that we are aware of - and are >>addressing. >That's good! I was glad to read your post about the patch, and am >looking forward to it. I should also note that your adjustable car and >track gammas should cure my complaints about the AI cars being >invisible. And perhaps the more precise control over graphics settings >will help with some of my other problems. >>But I think you have also managed to lay blame for a variety of yourQuoted text (16 lines)
>>problems >>on the game. >Well, if I have system problems, why does SODA run fine on both systems? >Not to mention a wide variety of other programs. >>Check the CPR postings here on ras - these should give you a >>good idea >>of what others are seeing - and not seeing. >Yes, thanks, I have spent several hours reading through these posts just >now. Seems like some people love CPR, while others - many of them >experienced sim racers - have many of the same issues I have with the >game. >>Here's a posting from ras just yesterday that doesn't sound consistentQuoted text (17 lines)
>>your >>experience ... >>Trevor Dwyer: Re: CPR on low end computer? >>"I run it on a 3dfx 200mhz FF system and it runs beautifully. >>I also run on a Pentium 60 and Pentium 90 laptops. It runs slow (but runs) >>on a 60 and runs fine on a 90.[snip] >>Highly recommend this game...[snip] >>Enjoyable to the extreme! >>Trevor Dwyer" >Dean, I am glad that Trevor is enjoying the game, and isQuoted text (11 lines)
>>I know it's impossible to test every possible combination, but I find it >>very frustrating to conduct such extensive testing on my own machines, >>document it carefully, and then have my difficulties written off by you >>as system configuration problems. >I think you have hit the nail on the head, here. >Rather than address the problems being experienced >by skilled sim racers, Dean is dissing them. He relies >on the fact that 'other people' haven't reported your >problems which is a typical Customer Support response."The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and
criticism, anymore."
OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out.
I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry.
If anyone of the hundreds of people here we have helped and who are enjoying
the game
cares to reply to this thread then great - but I'm out of here.
The patch and track editor will posted on the MS/TRI site soon - take a look
to see when it's posted.
Bye.
Quoted text (65 lines)
>>>I know it's impossible to test every possible combination, but I find it >>>very frustrating to conduct such extensive testing on my own machines, >>>document it carefully, and then have my difficulties written off by you >>>as system configuration problems. >>I think you have hit the nail on the head, here. >>Rather than address the problems being experienced >>by skilled sim racers, Dean is dissing them. He relies >>on the fact that 'other people' haven't reported your >>problems which is a typical Customer Support response. >Hear, hear! >>MS, or ANY simulator producer should rely most heavily >>on the more experienced SIM users to gauge the realism of >>their SIMULATION. >Precisely! >>It's hard to believe that Alex Zanardi >>didn't drive right up the back of the brain dead AI in >>this game. I am sure he did and was told, just like us, >>"we are addressing it". But, Alex, old buddy, they >>released it with the NON.AI anyway. What bothers me is >>that _now_ the MS attitude seems to be: >> "it's your problem, not ours". >Grrr! >>The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond >>to cries for help and criticism, anymore. >>It's a shame really, but when you have the CART license >>locked up, I guess you can do anything you want. >Well, I'm not so cynical as to go that far. From their participation >here, it seems that Dean and Eric really do care about the sim, and >having happy customers. However, dealing with problems which occur only >under certain conditions is much more difficult than dealing with >problems which everyone can see. No question about it; this is hard! >Dean's response is typical of most software support people and product >managers when confronted with problems they haven't seen and which maybe >haven't been too widely reported, and which are likely to be difficult >to find and fix. It's human nature. "We've been busting our butts >already to get this thing working, and it works great on our machines. >So we blow off the messenger - she's probably not too computer-savvy >anyway, or just too damn picky - and maybe the messenger will go away. >Then we don't have a problem any more. Right? Right?" >But the problem is still there, and sooner or later it will bite >Microsoft by costing them sales, as it is biting users by costing them >time and frustration. >The more people that report these elusive problems, the more likely the >problems will eventually be addressed. >Eagle Woman >Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. >http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alisonHi John,
Please read my comments again, you may have misunderstood me.
I am not happy running on a 60mhz, but in my rush to install this I forgot
that a Minimum
machine specification existed:) I did only say that it ran...albiet slowly.
Running on 200mhz 3dfx machine it looks beautiful - this has been the case
with
the numerous driver versions I have installed to fix 3dfx problems in other
games.
Best Regards
Trevor Dwyer
Dean,
First of all, "who is she"?? I have been to her site, nicely laid out btw. Though, it's seems like a bias site to me, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
All of this garbage, is system configurations. Lots of people aren't very "technically" sound. i.e., "backyard mechanic".. Though, I have met some good ones, but not "alot" of them.
julian data
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I am very disappointed that you have chosen to "pull an EA" and
withdraw your public participation regarding racing sims. It does not
bode at all well for the future of Microsoft racing products.
Flames have nothing to do with it - there will always be flames on
public forums, and mature people just ignore them and move on. The
vast majority (I'd say 90%+ of posts) of CPR feedback here have been
reasonable and informative. By choosing to cut yourself off from your
customers you will only hurt your own future products.
Joe
Alison,
Looks like you are number 14. Before your review, It's been the
same 13 people on r.a.s. with the same R E D U N D A N T, complaints. I
know the names of these people so well I'm ready to send them Christmas
cards. If anyone says anything good about the game, you can be sure the 13
professional CART drivers (who I guess made a choice to sit at their
computers monitoring this newsgroup instead of dominating the CART
circuit), and sim experts of all sim experts, will scold and put the poor
boy or girl in his place. Maybe you can take some of their workload on.
I've checked the postings on this newsgroup daily for 5 and a half weeks
now ever since I received the Gold preview version so I'm not exaggerating
in this observation.
If you are going to review a game in a professional matter,
shouldn't you have the hardware running correctly first? Try reviewing the
sim on my machine. It is a Gateway 200mmx, 4G, 32meg, STB Velocity 4meg
card, no 3dfx card, T2 wheel. Not an unusual machine in late '97. I have
frame rates in the mid-20's on some tracks with ALL the graphics on. With
various graphic settings, I can achieve frame rates of 30+. I just don't
understand the handling and steering complaints I occasionally hear. Wooly
handling? My cars track a perfectly straight line when I want them to. I
can literally drive a foot away from the wall at 240mph the whole length of
the straightaway at tracks like Michigan. I could go on and on about how
good the handling is.
An important note. I find it interesting that whenever I have
posted a positive comment(s) I receive e-mails from people either agreeing
with me on various points or with questions they feel I may be able to help
them with. They simply don't put postings on r.a.s. because they KNOW what
will follow. Some like myself go ahead and post because we understand the
"newsgroup mentality"and we want to help a few fellow sim fans. On almost
EVERY newsgroup, there is so-called experts who dominate the topic and
flame those who disagree. It's pathetic but true.
Since there are literally thousands of different hardware set ups
possible, it is impossible for a manufacturer to test a game on all of
them. The CPR sim itself (by that I mean the CD and all of the contents
hidden inside) is an EXCELLENT product. How it happens to run on your
configuration, which is having problems, is not a definitive way to do a
review. By the way, two of the EXPERTS you refer to in your review do not
even own the game. How many hours could they possibly of spent playing CPR?
Certainly not as many as they have spent on r.a.s. I've said before and
I'll say it again. The upcoming patch will make a great sim even better.
I'm glad the sim was released as it was (already excellent) and not delayed
for even another month. It was obvious from the day I received the Gold
copy what Microsoft and TRI's vision was for CPR and there was NO doubt
that they would continue to improve it. Before someone calls me a Microsoft
***kisser (very original) I'll say that by nature I'm a perfectionist who
is not easily impressed by anything.
Dave
Dean,
I don't blame you for leaving for a second. Check my other posting
just written a few minutes ago. I personally have never seen a
representative of a company or business put so much effort and time into
helping it's customers and that's not an exaggeration. You DEFINITELY have
helped many, many, people with CPR and I hope you feel good about that. I
wish I had people like you working for me. Keep up the good work on CPR.
Dave
I'm sorry, but the absolutely abysmal AI is unaffected by improperly
configured or otherwise inferior system. I could care less how well any
game may run or just how gorgeous it's graphics may be when the AI is as
bad as CPR's is.
--
Eric T. Busch
http://ebusch.akorn.net
> If you are going to review a game in a professional matter,
>shouldn't you have the hardware running correctly first? Try reviewing
the
>sim on my machine. It is a Gateway 200mmx, 4G, 32meg, STB Velocity 4meg
>card, no 3dfx card, T2 wheel. Not an unusual machine in late '97. I
have
>frame rates in the mid-20's on some tracks with ALL the graphics on.
With
>various graphic settings, I can achieve frame rates of 30+.
Not to totally "diss" you, but I think your opinion is horribly
uninformed....If you had actually been here for a while and read what Dean
had posted, you would have found that his posts were always helpful and
informative. I'm sorry that you have not taken the time to actually read
what the man has posted......now, I'd like to respond to some of the things
you have posted.
If you think about it, if only one person has reported a problem, and they
have spend hundreds of hours testing the game, chances are the problem(s)
lie in the persons system setup and how it interacts with CART, and is not
necessarily a flaw in the game. The CART team is very busy making a patch
and the track editor....things which will benefit the multitude of people.
Asking if "other people" had experienced the problem is just a way of
determining if a problem reported by a person is suitable for follow up. If
you read the other posts by Dean in this newsgroup, you'll see that he
always tries to address the problems that are verifiable, and therefore
worth the precious time of the CART team.
Ummmmm.....I'm not sure which newsgroup you've been reading since CART came
out, but I don't think it's been RAS. If you'd noticed, Dean always
responds quickly to the problems of CART users, and always responds in a
helpful, non hostile manner, even when he is being flamed to all hell. I
think that has taken a lot of restraint. MS support has been GREAT, and I'm
sorry that you didn't bother to inform yourself before posting. If the
above is your opinion, fine, you're entitled to it. But when most companies
don't even BOTHER to come here, the least you could do is admit that Dean
and the CART team are doing their best....I think they are. Most of my CART
related posts were responded to within a few hours......if this is an
example of not responding to "cries for help and criticism", I'd like to see
what is!
I expect several flames attacking my position....and I ask that you review
the CART team's activity on this newsgroup......and if you can honestly tell
me that the support for CART has been bad, then I'll respect your opinion.
I just sure as hell won't agree with it.
Mike McCloskey
C.P.R. Playground
I have to be amused by this statement. I do not own CPR, and I have no
plans for buying it, but I have read many/most of the posts concerning
CPR (the main reason why I never bought it). One of the few good points
on CPR was that Microsoft engineers took the time to contact with
consumers directly through r.a.s. This seems to have backfired on them,
as Dean immaturely cries foul and takes his ball and goes home. Dean,
are you crazy? This can only do harm to Microsoft and sales of CPR.
Geez, if I were your boss, I'd fire you ! heh. What happened to the old
adage "the customer is always right" ? Of course there will always be
obnoxious annoying customers, but you should be mature enough to
recognize this and ignore them. I think you were behind the 8-ball to
begin with since there is a lot of anti-Microsoft sentiment out there.
If you really did get fed up with all the whiners on this newsgroup,
then you should have just stopped reading, but to come up with statement
can do no good at all to yourself or your product.
For me personally, I don't care whether you stay or leave, but I have
noticed that often times you simply do not react to negative comments
and purely try to paint a bright picture. I think people would trust you
better if sometimes you could come out and say "yeah, you're right, CPR
can't do this, perhaps we made a mistake in releasing it too soon" etc,
instead of reacting to negative comments as personal attacks. I think
99% of the people with negative points about CPR have a valid reason for
them , and instead of saying "no, you are wrong, you set up your system
incorrectly", etc., you would be much more effective if you at least
recognized the customer's viewpoint/opinion, no matter what it is.
By leaving the newsgroup in this manner, you are conceding that the
whiners/complainers are right, and you and Microsoft can't hack it
(which may be true anyways, who knows)
-Dan P
Quoted text (19 lines)
> "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for > help and > criticism, anymore." > OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run > out. > I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry. > If anyone of the hundreds of people here we have helped and who are > enjoying > the game > cares to reply to this thread then great - but I'm out of here. > The patch and track editor will posted on the MS/TRI site soon - take > a look > to see when it's posted. > Bye.......I was reading the group on my friends account and forgot to change the
name from his to mine before posting.....thanks.
Mike McCloskey
C.P.R. Playground
I would like to thank you for*** out as long as you have....I'm sorry
that you've decided to leave, and I'd really appreciate it (as well as many
other people who have actual questions/problems about CART) if you'd hang
around, but I understand that there is only so much uninformed and
irrational opinions/positions that you can take. It's amazing that you've
always kept a level head when dealing with some of these people.
Thank you for all of your help since CART released, I (and many others)
appreciate it......just remember that there really are people who need your
help here on R.A.S., and maybe after a little break...you could come
back....please??? If not, I totally understand......thanks for all you've
done here on R.A.S. It was great to have a link to the people involved in
designing CART. I for one love the game. Thanks again, and hopefully we'll
eventually see you back here!
Mike McCloskey
C.P.R. Playground
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:22:36 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)"
>"I've read about ... how great CPR is for networked racing (one of my
>primary interests) but frankly, how can I get e***d about racing if
>I can't even drive the damn car down the straightaways?"
>A balanced review covers the strengths as well as the weaknesses of a game
>... "I don't like this feature so I'm not going to bother reviewing this
>other feature." Ouch.
Be fair Dean, if one depends upon the other it is quite appropriate.
If a particular beer makes me feel unwell I'm unlikely to take a case
of it to a party and see if I can have some fun, am I?
What are you implying? AFAI remember that post was from a guy who
mentioned it here on r.a.s. and everyone read it, myself (and I guess
you) included. So because Alison quoted the (good) information in her
review that makes her a pirate? Because she quoted it her opinion
somehow becomes less relevant?
Hmmmm.....
Cheers!
John
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:22:13 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)"
>"The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and
>criticism, anymore."
>OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out.
>I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry.
You know, Dean, a couple of weeks or so ago I would have implored you to
stay. But frankly on the basis of your recent propaganda and flaming of
someone who was only trying to produce an objective review of CPR, I'm
really not sure that you will be missed.
You came in all e***d that you had a world beating sim only to find
that the top sim racers are a little more demanding than your in house
drivers. But you remained upbeat and helpful.
Then your initial very helpful presence became increasingly what appeared
to be a damage limitation exercise and rounding on anyone who offered
criticism (whether constructive or destructive).
You left.
Anyway, I do wish you luck with future versions of CPR. But if you are
going to promote it as a *sim* then please, please, *PLEASE*, make sure
that someone who really knows about sim racing has input to it.
Cheers,
Richard
PS: If you really *are* interested in responding to *constructive*
criticism, you are very welcome to contribute to the Motorsports section
of the Sports Simulation (SPRTSIMS) forum on Compuserve. You will find
some very knowledgable sim racers there and it is a flame free zone <g>
Don't expect an easy ride, but you will NOT need Nomex underwear....
> "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and
> criticism, anymore."
> OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out.
Thanks a WHOLE lot alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice
a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and
leave.. THANKS A LOT
--
Dave Otterness
I do. The occasional flame is the nature of public forums, and they
can be easily ignored by any mature person. They are not an excuse for
"pulling an EA" (i.e., withdrawing completely from public
participation).
Joe
Quoted text (15 lines)
>I have to be amused by this statement. I do not own CPR, and I have no >plans for buying it, but I have read many/most of the posts concerning >CPR (the main reason why I never bought it). One of the few good points >on CPR was that Microsoft engineers took the time to contact with >consumers directly through r.a.s. This seems to have backfired on them, >as Dean immaturely cries foul and takes his ball and goes home. Dean, >are you crazy? This can only do harm to Microsoft and sales of CPR. >Geez, if I were your boss, I'd fire you ! heh. What happened to the old >adage "the customer is always right" ? Of course there will always be >obnoxious annoying customers, but you should be mature enough to >recognize this and ignore them. I think you were behind the 8-ball to >begin with since there is a lot of anti-Microsoft sentiment out there. >If you really did get fed up with all the whiners on this newsgroup, >then you should have just stopped reading, but to come up with statement >can do no good at all to yourself or your product.>> "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and
>> criticism, anymore."
>> OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out.
>Thanks a WHOLE lot alison..
Get real. If Dean makes his own decision to leave the newsgroup
becuase of one "flame" (not even that severe a flame by usenet
standards) that is certainly not the flamer's fault. If we all left
every time we got a flame, every newsgroup on the net would be empty!
Dean is a grown man who has full responsibility for the choices he
makes. I for one thought his participation here was the one bright
spot in an otherwise fairly shaky CPR release - and now that bright
spot has gone, Dean has chosen to "pull an EA". But that's *his*
decision, not Alison's.
Joe
Man you are an Idiot crawl back in your hole Dean has "responded"
to alot of help and critisim here where have you been???
I was involved in the gold preview release of CPR, and I reported many of
the problems that Alison reported within two days of having the CD
I reported the need or desire for tire temps. My guess is that the
simulation is not based on tires heating up and "going away". Must be based
on some new law of Physics.
I asked where are the yellow flags?
I expressed that control setup was very bad, and second joyport support for
CH pedals didn't work even after I read the text file, and followed the
directions.
The AI problems were mentioned from day one by many people.
In fact I too remember having a total system crash that required me to
reinstall my entire system. I didn't previously report this as a CPR
problem, and am not sure if it was the fault of CPR. All I know is on that
day I was trying to configure two things to work properly, my ch pedals -
never resolved, bought a thrustmaster 2 and the annoying flicker in my
voodoo rush card. I rebooted my system, changed drivers so many times
during those first two days, that I may have been the cause. Maybe it was
the system lockups that I had to press the reset button because it was not
coming back?
I am sorry to see that Dean has decided to leave RAS, I hope that he still
reads this site. I tried to voice my concerns to Dean in the first days of
the Gold Preview by asking a one simple question, "Dean, is this a beta
preview or is this the finish product, if it is the finished product, expect
a lot of complaints and many returns".
I think Alison was on the right track.
And had every right to speak her mind.
Brian
If
I'm
>sorry that you didn't bother to inform yourself before posting. If the
>above is your opinion, fine, you're entitled to it. But when most companies
>don't even BOTHER to come here, the least you could do is admit that Dean
>and the CART team are doing their best....I think they are. Most of my CART
>related posts were responded to within a few hours......if this is an
>example of not responding to "cries for help and criticism", I'd like to see
>what is!
>I expect several flames attacking my position....and I ask that you review
>the CART team's activity on this newsgroup......and if you can honestly tell
>me that the support for CART has been bad, then I'll respect your opinion.
>I just sure as hell won't agree with it.
>Mike McCloskey
>C.P.R. Playground
Quoted text (19 lines)
>Not to totally "diss" you, but I think your opinion is horribly >uninformed....If you had actually been here for a while and read what Dean >had posted, you would have found that his posts were always helpful and >informative. I'm sorry that you have not taken the time to actually read >what the man has posted......now, I'd like to respond to some of the things >you have posted. >>Rather than address the problems being experienced >>by skilled sim racers, Dean is dissing them. He relies >>on the fact that 'other people' haven't reported your >>problems which is a typical Customer Support response. >If you think about it, if only one person has reported a problem, and they >have spend hundreds of hours testing the game, chances are the problem(s) >lie in the persons system setup and how it interacts with CART, and is not >necessarily a flaw in the game. The CART team is very busy making a patch >and the track editor....things which will benefit the multitude of people. >Asking if "other people" had experienced the problem is just a way of >determining if a problem reported by a person is suitable for follow up.Quoted text (15 lines)
>you read the other posts by Dean in this newsgroup, you'll see that he >always tries to address the problems that are verifiable, and therefore >worth the precious time of the CART team. >>What bothers me is that _now_ the MS attitude seems to be: >> "it's your problem, not ours". >>The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond >>to cries for help and criticism, anymore. >Ummmmm.....I'm not sure which newsgroup you've been reading since CART came >out, but I don't think it's been RAS. If you'd noticed, Dean always >responds quickly to the problems of CART users, and always responds in a >helpful, non hostile manner, even when he is being flamed to all hell. I >think that has taken a lot of restraint. MS support has been GREAT, andI apologize for getting cheezed off, it just really upsets me that Dean
ended up deciding that he'd had enough. Your message sounded like you were
basing your entire opinion of Dean on one or two posts, which is why I
assumed you hadn't been reading the others. When I read your post, it made
it sound like you were attacking Dean's involvement from the start, not just
the way the most recent situation with Alison was handled....I agree he was
being a bit too defensive, but considering how negative parts of her review
are, I think it's forgivable that he stressed the positives of CART that
were not touched upon in her review. Sorry I wasn't communicating in a very
productive way, I just got cheezed off when I saw you saying that MS
doesn't help people who are having problems out.....I tend to strongly
disagree. I've got finals to study for, so I hope you'll accept my apology
for my less than friendly letter.
Mike McCloskey
C.P.R. Playground
http://www.msu.edu/user/mcclosk6/cart/cart.htm
Quoted text (15 lines)
> "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and > criticism, anymore." > OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out. > I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry. > If anyone of the hundreds of people here we have helped and who are enjoying > the game > cares to reply to this thread then great - but I'm out of here. > The patch and track editor will posted on the MS/TRI site soon - take a look > to see when it's posted. > Bye.Quoted text (23 lines)
> That girl whom you so rudely refer to as "stupid", I thought posted a very > indepth report on CPR, she obviously spent a lot of time and effort ont > that review. I would applaud anyone taking the time to do that, and post > their review, as I'm sure it would be beneficial to both the consumer and > the developer. I would say that for either side, whether positive or > negative. I don't think Alison in any way is resposible for Dean leaving > the newsgroup, he has that choice, and has evidently made it. He also could > have chose to stay, and continue in the vein he has been. But don't blame > Alison for his leaving, that was his choice alone. > -- > Don Burnette > I-65 Racing > Dburn on Ten > alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice > > a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and > > leave.. THANKS A LOT > > -- > > Dave OtternessQuoted text (21 lines)
> "If you can't stand the heat........." > Alison's comments were completely non-abusive.....which is more than can > be said about yours. > If Dean took umbrage at the points that the lady was making, to the > extent of spitting the dummy, then that is his personal problem. Alison > did not cast an evil spell on him and banish him from the NG. > Did you stop to think that the reason he may have left in a huff is that > he did not have any logical answers for the (valid) points raised? > Storming off in a fit of temper is usually ascribed to children when > they don't get their own way. > I rest my case. > -- > Bruce > (at work) > "An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought." > (Simon Cameron)Alison--
You did a hell of a job in your review oF CPR...I hope Mr. Lester's
crybaby response doesn't deter you from telling it like it is in future.
Keep up the great work!
Bart Brown
Great review Alison, I could not have said it better.
Nice to see a Real Review, not a Glossed over half ass one like Next Gen
and others.
I played and toyed with this thing for a week trying to like it as well but
it is just
so riddled with bugs "and that framerate" it really is unplayable.
Funny how on Pro I win every race I play, took me months to do that in
ICR2.
I agree that this game was shoved out the door in an Alpha state.
If Mr GO_CART from TRI says different he is insulting our intelligence and
plain common sense.
Bottom line..The game simply put...SUCKS.
Oh well.
........
If I thought for a nanosecond that Microsoft gave a rat's ass about this
newsgroup, I'd email them a full copy of your whining, sniveling
response to Alison's review of CPR, and all your other rants about any
negative response to what is obviously a flawed product; but since
Microsoft has seen fit to present someone as immature as you've shown
yourself to be as their "representative" in this NG, that pretty much
says all there is to say about their "presence" here.
Searching DejaNews, I find that, except for one brief comment regarding
"Monster Truck Madness" on August 25, 1996, your massive contribution to
RAS started on November 2, 1997 -- a whole 5 weeks ago. So after a
little more than a month, all these "negative posts" and "flames" you've
had to endure have caused you to pick up your Bill gates Ball and go
home. Poor baby!
Apparently, a month ago you weren't quite as battle-scarred and cynical,
but I know that a month monitoring a games newsgroup must be hell -- I
hope the Big M gives you a Purple heart and a well-deserved rest and
promotion. Just for old times' sake, here's one of your first posts,
written when you were still a wide-eyed innocent, full of hope and
idealism, marching onward for the greater glory of Microsoft. I guess
that stuff about "people making up their own minds" and the value of the
"feedback process" was just youthful naivet. One can grow SO much in a
month:
Date: 1997/11/05
Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
Thanks for your posting!
Yes, there are many many people enjoying CPR without necessarily posting
a message saying so.
Postings, as always, mainly focus on the negative. Though this is not
necessarily a bad thing - tells us what to work on first! ;)
We encourage everyone reading this group to download the trial and make
up their own minds.
That's what it's for.
And keep sending the feedback - we are working with TRi right now
looking at ALL the postings and email.
fyi - my teams also develop Flight Simulator, and it is through
precisely this feedback process that that Sim has stayed so strong.
And thanks for all the feedback already submitted - it is not being
ignored. Far from it ...
Expect news soon.
MS/TRi CPR Team.>>
> As far as your "stupid girl" comment, not many "stupid girls" that I know
> are aerobatic pilots and built their own planes.
> Here's what I think about your uninformed statement...
> {PLONK}
Why, you can't mean His Otterness, the gentleman who penned such
classics as:
"Why don't you just wait and buy the game??? Fat little 11 year-olds..
sheesh.."
And grandly signs himself as:
"CART:PR tester,
--
Dave Otterness
Not *that* Dave Otterness! He's such a mature boy! And of course he has
no *personal* interest in a Microsoft flunky*** around here --
heavens NO!
I just hope all you folks who paid real American money for CPR will
apologize to poor little Dean for the whole MONTH of hell you've put him
through...land's sakes, the boy's just trying to spread the
gospel...Obviously if the sim doesn't work right it has absolutely
nothing to do with Microsoft shoving it off the ramp in time for the
Christmas rush and EVERYTHING to do with your collective ignorance in
computer setup and configuration. You people should kneel down and kiss
the virtual ground Microsoft demeans itself to walk on here.
INGRATES!
Bart Brown
Moron
<<If you think about it, if only one person has reported a problem, and
they have spend hundreds of hours testing the game, chances are the
problem(s) lie in the persons system setup and how it interacts with
CART, and is not necessarily a flaw in the game.>>
Excuse me? "If only ONE person has reported a problem"? What are YOU
smoking?
I won't even *bother* to comment on the rest of your self-serving post,
as rrevved and Brian Heiland have addressed the issues far more expertly
and eloquently than I could have.
C.P.R. Playground, huh? I'm glad *you* have no axe to grind...
Bart Brown
Quoted text (37 lines)
> > As far as your "stupid girl" comment, not many "stupid girls" that I know > > are aerobatic pilots and built their own planes. > > Here's what I think about your uninformed statement... > > {PLONK} > Why, you can't mean His Otterness, the gentleman who penned such > classics as: > "Why don't you just wait and buy the game??? Fat little 11 year-olds.. > sheesh.." > And grandly signs himself as: > "CART:PR tester, > -- > Dave Otterness > Not *that* Dave Otterness! He's such a mature boy! And of course he has > no *personal* interest in a Microsoft flunky*** around here -- > heavens NO! > I just hope all you folks who paid real American money for CPR will > apologize to poor little Dean for the whole MONTH of hell you've put him > through...land's sakes, the boy's just trying to spread the > gospel...Obviously if the sim doesn't work right it has absolutely > nothing to do with Microsoft shoving it off the ramp in time for the > Christmas rush and EVERYTHING to do with your collective ignorance in > computer setup and configuration. You people should kneel down and kiss > the virtual ground Microsoft demeans itself to walk on here. > INGRATES! > Bart Brown > Moronyou gotta be kidding.......Is that all you saw? the blame being passed
on?..... so why are they coming out with this patch again? who is being
blamed for that? hmmmmmmm I havent heard them blaming anyone for the AI
problems..I havent heard them blaming anyone for the rain tire bug. so
please tell me who is being blamed for that? maybe just maybe they admit the
game isnt up to par and they are fixing it by listening and responding to
the major problems on this NG and not just a issolated incident that is only
happened to one person yeah there are alot of posts on this NG that are not
positive about this game but can you find one other post that says their OS
was corrupted. I am not saying this didnt happen but how much time do you
think they need to spend addressing ONE (1) issolated problem Its to bad
that people like you can run someone off who has been here addressing the
problems of this game can you name another game manufaturerthat does this
the way MS did GOOD JOB!!!!!!!!!!!
Seems to me he left because Allison's review was too harsh for him. Too bad that
honest criticism is too much for a company rep to stomach. "I don't think your
review was fair so I'm not gonna play with anymore!"
It is too bad the entire newsgroup has to be punished.
Ken
The Game Pad
http://gamepad.org/
Quoted text (28 lines)
> >> You know, Dean, a couple of weeks or so ago I would have implored you to > stay. But frankly on the basis of your recent propaganda and flaming of > someone who was only trying to produce an objective review of CPR, I'm really > not sure that you will be missed. >> > He will be. Richard, just what do you expect a company rep to do? say "yeah, > great review, our product bites the big one?!" Please. The guy is being as > helpful as he can, with the caveat that since he works for the vendor he's got > an obligation to spin things and try to help create a positive perception of > the product. Rather than ripping him to shreds for it, perhaps we can just > separate the wheat from the chaff. We know he's got a job to do that includes > promiting his product, and he knows he's got a job to do. So some of it is > positive spin control. So what?! I can stomach a guy coming in and spinning > this in his product's favor if he's also helping out people who are having a > hard time configuring the sim, or taking suggestions for future versions and > updates. Its really a small price to pay and my guess is that a lot of the > people who suffered under the cold silence of Microprose regarding GP2 would > have killed to have a MPS rep here as helpful as Dean has been, and would have > been willing to tolerate some of the expected company-line that goes with it. > Yeah, Dean will be missed, but I don't blame him for leaving because I think > too many people have taken out their anti-MS feelings on him personally. > Randy > Randy Magruder > Staff Writer > Digital Sportspage > http://www.digitalsports.com/I agree. It is ashamed that Dean is leaving the RAS just because some people are too critical. It
would be better too ignore people who are total jerks ( that is what kill files are for) and
respond to people who are are at least somewhat rational. There are jerks in every aspect of
life, but you don't punish everyone just because of a few bad apples. I had a lot of problems
with this game but decided to stick it out because it seemed Dean and Microsoft were going to
stick it out for the long haul and the presence here on the newsgroup reassured me of that. Now,
I am having second thoughts. Granted, Dean has no obligation to be here, however from his
previous posts we were led to believe that he would be here for the long haul. Oh well.....
Ken
The Game Pad
http://gamepad.org/
Quoted text (34 lines)
> >"The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and > >criticism, anymore." > >OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out. > >I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry. > Well, to quote you from 11/06/97: > "Debate and feedback is good. It encourages improvement. > The worst crime would be for us to assume CPR1.0 is perfect and to ignore > the feedback - and we can assure you we are not doing that. > Try the demo, post your thoughts (warts and all) and see what happens. Can't > hurt?" > In light of this quote from Dean, I'd say he wasn't aware of what real > criticism means. Allison's review was fair within her experience. Almost all > of the posts here regarding negative comments of CPR were intelligent, > reasonably thought out posts that expressed his/her frustrations with what > everyone saw as "potential", yet failed in some way or other. Some people had > flawless experiences. Some people couldn't run the game to their liking no > matter what (me). I think that if a publisher publicly commits to sticking it > out no matter what ("warts and all"), I think that publisher has an obligation > to fulfill that commit. > I'm sorry to see Dean leave. I feel that is a failure on Microsoft's part in > supporting this game. > Regards, > John Wehman > Seagate Technologymuch of how "unlike other sims, CPR comes with excellent setups." - can you
show me where you saw this? We have _never_ claimed the defaults were good -
average at best. See any of my earlier FAQ postings on this.
Not wanting to get shot in the cross-fire here, but, I recall a interview
with the who I believe was the Product Manager for CARTPR say on the All
Games Network that unlike other sims, CARTPR will ship with very good
set-ups (or something to that effect). I definitely recall this as being
something like "very good" because I thought how nice that would be. Since I
have limited time to spend on sims, I was pleased to hear this. My largest
disappointment with GP2 was the time involved getting the right setups. So I
was looking forward to getting very good "canned" setups so I could spend
more time one the track and less time analyzing charts and tweaking
settings.
I will say that with minor changes from the Elkhart Lake default setup, I am
able to turn qualifying times that would place me in 6th position in
relation to the "Track Stats" in 5 or 6 short sessions. So, from my limited
experience of just Elkhart Lake, I would say that MS did provide very good
setups.
As far as trail braking, I am able to do this at Elkhart Lake. Not as
consistently as I would like. This is has more to do with my driving
abilities in setting up for corners over CARTPR.
That's my 3 cents worth.
Quoted text (8 lines)
>"The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and >criticism, anymore." >OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out. >I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry. >If anyone of the hundreds of people here we have helped and who areDidn't we go thru this with some guy from Papyrus a while back who got
tired of the BS and bailed? Seems to me the sun still came up the next
morning. Who the hell cares if Dean is here or not. The damage is done
already, got the game and it has been more than 10 days, so I can't return
it to EB for an exchange!
Lesson learned......patience Grasshopper.......wait for a while after a game
is released. Download demo?(i'm a real jerk for buying this without trying
the demo)
Dave
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:07:10 -0600, David Otterness
Don't flame Alison. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and review
of CPR, even if it's biased, incomplete, or right on the money.
You've got to be able to sift through the b.s. in this newsgroup and
make intelligent decisions about what you write and want to read here.
If someone gets fed up responding or reading to negative posts and
criticisms, justified or not, that's their choice if they want to
leave or stay.. I'm just sorry that it has to happen again and again,
and we lose the ability to interface with the people closest to the
developers.
Too many people seem to know what it's like to be a software
developer, and yet I don't have any way of knowing whether they're
year olds are as experienced as they claim in releasing a major
software package. ; )
Kyle
Quoted text (7 lines)
>> Have you *read* any of Alison's posts? She did *NOT* say that statement >> that you & Dean seem to have attributed to her. >Wow never thought I'd get this much reaction.. You and about 10 other >people brought it to my attention that she didn't say it, but rrevved.. >Sorry Alison.. It's just the way Dean quoted it and the # of references >it had made it look like it was from Alison's original post.I agree. I read her review. The first thing I thought was how odd it was
that
she is reviewing an old game. And making it sound like some thrilling new
review. I still would like a little more information from her on how CPR
broke her system. Just simply putting it in the words she used in not
sufficient IMHO. I thought Dean responded properly (but I could tell
he was pissed). Then RREVVED did the worm turning thing which
set Dean off. Too bad. I thought Dean or someone should explain
the lack of tire temperatures to get a proper setup. That was the one point
she had which I thought deserved a proper response. Instead I think
Dean had no response and bailed, using RREVVED's comments
as the trigger. Oh well.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
>I applaud MS for listening to the critics of the game and quickly
>working on a patch that hopes to address many of the problems that have
>been found. However, I still think the real point here is that the game
>should never have been released in it current state.
>--
>Eric T. Busch
>http://ebusch.akorn.net
>>you gotta be kidding.......Is that all you saw? the blame being passed
>>on?..... so why are they coming out with this patch again? who is
>being
>>blamed for that? hmmmmmmm I havent heard them blaming anyone for the AI
>>problems..I havent heard them blaming anyone for the rain tire bug. so
>>please tell me who is being blamed for that? maybe just maybe they
>admit the
>>game isnt up to par and they are fixing it by listening and responding
>to
>>the major problems on this NG and not just a issolated incident that is
>only
>>happened to one person yeah there are alot of posts on this NG that
>are not
>>positive about this game but can you find one other post that says
>their OS
>>was corrupted. I am not saying this didnt happen but how much time do
>you
>>think they need to spend addressing ONE (1) issolated problem Its to
>bad
>>that people like you can run someone off who has been here addressing
>the
>>problems of this game can you name another game manufaturerthat does
>this
>>the way MS did GOOD JOB!!!!!!!!!!!
>If the sim isn't calculating tire temps, then it's clearly much harder
>to offer them via UI... :-)
It is also probably less of a sim than we origionally thought it would be.
Alison,
I highly doubt it was your comments alone that sent Dean packing. I
think it had more to do with the same ol people attacking every
statement or attempt at help he provided. I would get sick of that
myself. He was in a cant win position with these people. I doubt he
single handily decided when CPR would be released. Obviously.. more beta
testing should have been done.
You would understand the above if you werent such a stupid girl ;)
(Just for clarification so i dont get flamed to hell for that comment...
it was an attempt at humor!!!).
Scott B. Husted
[link lost in import: /~sbhusted]
Quoted text (35 lines)
> >> Thanks a WHOLE lot alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice > >> a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and > >> leave.. THANKS A LOT > >> -- > >> Dave Otterness > > Oh yeah, this is all Alison's fault. Gee I hate you Alison :) It's > >got nothing to do with pathetic AI. Gee I hate girls. > >Hehehehehehehehehe! > <grin> Thanks, Byron! > Actualy, I must admit that I rather like Dave Otterness' comment. Not > that I'm a ***; it's just that it's so absurd, it's funny. > I *am* sorry that Dean left the group. I seriously doubt if it was my > review alone that made him do it; I don't think I'm that powerful! But, > really, I think the entity which caused Dean's headaches was Microsoft > itself, which put themselves in the position they are in by releasing a > product that really wasn't ready. Was it rushed out to make the > Christmas season? Seems likely, but I suppose we'll never know. > I do very much appreciate Dean's participation in this group. I > understand it was on his own time, and that he has an infant child, and > obviously it all got to be a bit much. I wish him well. > Eagle Woman > Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. > http://www.simracing.com/~alison [address restored]Thats about the closest youve come to a logical and intelligent comment
so far!! Congratulations!!
Scott B. Husted
http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted
> uh huh...
> --
> * rrevved at mindspring dot com - {unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m.}
> * http://www.sputum.com - http://www.subgenius.com
IME, Win95 is likely to decide to not restart for any number of
reasons, most of which I've been unable to determine. Sometimes it's
installing new software, or not shutting down cleanly, a failing disk,
and sometimes it's apprently just because I was eating a chocolate
pudding and watching Seinfeld in the same room as the computer.
Is it possible the CPR contributes to OS corruption? Sure. Is it
likely that it's an endemic problem? No. Is it likely that if Alison
re-installed on that same machine that she'd see it again? I don't
think so.
What's an acceptable failure rate for OS corruption after a CPR
install? One in 1000? How does your answer change if 1 in 1000 times
Win95 fails to reboot without a CPR CD in the same zip code?
---Jim
I don't know if Dean was all *that* badly treated...maybe I've become
too used to the flamage here, but I seem to recall seeing about the same
number of "Boy am I glad Dean is here" posts as "CPR Sux!" posts.
I thought Dean did rather well...I wouldn't want to be in his position,
i.e. having to contantly and repetitively defend his product. Granted,
he and his team released their game prematurely, but Dean seems to have
listened to what we had to say and has incorporated most of our wants
into the upcoming patch. I hope the patch works as promised.
I have a 3Dfx card, and I'm a little disappointed that there won't be a
Glide patch, but I was *extremely* surprised that MS/TRI even mentioned
a Glide patch in the first place...I can't possiblly imagine MS
management allowing TRI to release a non D3D patch to one of their
"premier" games.
--
Neil Yeatman
Ajax, Ontario, CANADA
Hmm... that's about the timeframe for GPL. =)
--
Eric T. Busch
http://ebusch.akorn.net
Quoted text (16 lines)
> >> Thanks a WHOLE lot alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice > >> a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and > >> leave.. THANKS A LOT > >> -- > >> Dave Otterness > > Oh yeah, this is all Alison's fault. Gee I hate you Alison :) It's > >got nothing to do with pathetic AI. Gee I hate girls. > >Hehehehehehehehehe! > <grin> Thanks, Byron! > Actualy, I must admit that I rather like Dave Otterness' comment. Not > that I'm a ***; it's just that it's so absurd, it's funny.Allison I think I rem you saying you used the latest Sierra drivers in your
test. Well if you want to compair the new ones with ver 2.1 drivers I think
you will find that your Framerate and the distance you can see ahead both
will be quite low with the new Drivers. The 2.1 ver drivers have given me
the best results so far!
Later
George Sandman
Stealth Racing #1
1997 CICC PPG Champion
1996 CICC PPG Champion
1996 NWSICT PPG Champion
1996 FRL PPG Champion
Quoted text (15 lines)
>My computers are both fairly standard, too. One is an ASUS TX >motherboard with an Intel P-166, 32 mb SDRAM, Soundblaster 16, Screamin' >3D card, Thrustmaster ACM game card, a Thrustmaster T2, and Win95b. The >other is an Intel motherboard with P-133, 32 mb FPM RAM, ESS 1688 sound >card, Intergraph Intense 3D card, Adaptec 2940 SCSI, Thrustmaster ACM >card, Thrustmaster GP1 with CH Pro pedals, and Win95a. Both have 16-bit >network cards, both have DirectX 5. Nothing radically bizarre here. >Eagle Woman >Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. >http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alisonI have to agree with David I have never see this kind of support anywhere!
Hope you come back soon Dean!!
George Sandman
Stealth Racing #1
1997 CICC PPG Champion
1996 CICC PPG Champion
1996 NWSICT PPG Champion
1996 FRL PPG Champion
Quoted text (20 lines)
>Dean, > I don't blame you for leaving for a second. Check my other posting >just written a few minutes ago. I personally have never seen a >representative of a company or business put so much effort and time into >helping it's customers and that's not an exaggeration. You DEFINITELY have >helped many, many, people with CPR and I hope you feel good about that. I >wish I had people like you working for me. Keep up the good work on CPR. >Dave >> "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help >and >> criticism, anymore." >> OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out. >> I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry.stay. But frankly on the basis of your recent propaganda and flaming of
someone who was only trying to produce an objective review of CPR, I'm really
not sure that you will be missed. >>
He will be. Richard, just what do you expect a company rep to do? say "yeah,
great review, our product bites the big one?!" Please. The guy is being as
helpful as he can, with the caveat that since he works for the vendor he's got
an obligation to spin things and try to help create a positive perception of
the product. Rather than ripping him to shreds for it, perhaps we can just
separate the wheat from the chaff. We know he's got a job to do that includes
promiting his product, and he knows he's got a job to do. So some of it is
positive spin control. So what?! I can stomach a guy coming in and spinning
this in his product's favor if he's also helping out people who are having a
hard time configuring the sim, or taking suggestions for future versions and
updates. Its really a small price to pay and my guess is that a lot of the
people who suffered under the cold silence of Microprose regarding GP2 would
have killed to have a MPS rep here as helpful as Dean has been, and would have
been willing to tolerate some of the expected company-line that goes with it.
Yeah, Dean will be missed, but I don't blame him for leaving because I think
too many people have taken out their anti-MS feelings on him personally.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
takes his ball and goes home. >>
Yeah, DEAN is the immature one here...right.
Oh, that's rich. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, right?
Why don't you send your resume to Microsoft and enclose a copy of your usenet
posting as a sample. I'm sure they'll hire you so that you can fire Dean.
The bad customers killed it over the last 20 years.
begin with since there is a lot of anti-Microsoft sentiment out there. <<
True, but if it were as powerful as some people think, Microsoft wouldn't be as
successful as it is. I work for one of Microsoft's competitors and so I know
what it is to go up against them, but there's at least some respect there as
well.
product.
Dean probably figures he's got nothing to lose at this point, and I don't blame
him.
comments and purely try to paint a bright picture. >>
He's a representative of the company that makes CPR. Painting a bright picture
for customers is part of his job.
say "yeah, you're right, CPR can't do this, perhaps we made a mistake in
releasing it too soon" etc, >>
Oh, yeah, that would really defuse the bashers....
Its amazing here how the victim has become the bad guy. Dean's put himself out
here time and time again and patiently dealt with people who were just
downright abusive, and the one time he finally says "enough" and leaves, two
people jump on his case and tell him that somehow HE is at fault for all of it.
<< you would be much more effective if you at least
recognized the customer's viewpoint/opinion, no matter what it is.>>
He did and does.
whiners/complainers are right, and you and Microsoft can't hack it >>
By leaving the newsgroup he's doing something probably well deserved...letting
some of the abusive folks here eat static for awhile, as we all did with
Microprose and GP2. Lets now all enjoy the wonderful silence brought on by the
Usenet flamers, who have once again demonstrated why so many peoples' eyes roll
whenever someone mentions the word "newsgroup".
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
I think you have mis-read the posts. It was not Alison who made "the worm
has turned" comment. I think Alison did a very fair and direct review, as
well as her posts to Dean. Comments like "freaking dork" and "stupid girl"
is what ruins r.a.s and makes people like Dean want to leave. Not the
intelligent, informative debate that Alison provided.
Don Chapman
> > "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and
> > criticism, anymore."
> > OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out.
> Thanks a WHOLE lot alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice
> a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and
> leave.. THANKS A LOT
> --
> Dave Otterness
<yawn>
And the same people will post saying how good the game is and
generally burying their heads in the sand.
You completely fail to grasp that the people who you say are, what was
it, "so called experts" are not trying to put the game down, but
trying to improve it. They are people who genuinely want to like the
game, and <gasp> can actually acknowledge that a product can be
flawed. People who would like to help the manufacturer, themselves,
and, by extension, you to deliver and enjoy a better product.
You don't like that people disagree with your point-of-view, okay
that's fine. Don't make the mistake of turning it around and thinking
people are putting CPR down - they're trying to improve it for you.
Tell me, if it's such an "EXCELLENT PRODUCT", why are Microsoft and
TRI rushing around delivering a patch pronto.....?
Cheers!
John
PS - I guess I'm one of the two people who "doesn't even own the
game", but if you've been diligently monitoring the group as you say
then you'll know that a friend bought it and I have played his copy
extensively. Guess what? It's got the same problems as the demo. Guess
what else? I personally can't wait for the patch and hope that it
makes me rush out and buy CPR, since in some respects even the current
version is a lot of fun for me.
Well, to quote you from 11/06/97:
"Debate and feedback is good. It encourages improvement.
The worst crime would be for us to assume CPR1.0 is perfect and to ignore
the feedback - and we can assure you we are not doing that.
Try the demo, post your thoughts (warts and all) and see what happens. Can't
hurt?"
In light of this quote from Dean, I'd say he wasn't aware of what real
criticism means. Allison's review was fair within her experience. Almost all
of the posts here regarding negative comments of CPR were intelligent,
reasonably thought out posts that expressed his/her frustrations with what
everyone saw as "potential", yet failed in some way or other. Some people had
flawless experiences. Some people couldn't run the game to their liking no
matter what (me). I think that if a publisher publicly commits to sticking it
out no matter what ("warts and all"), I think that publisher has an obligation
to fulfill that commit.
I'm sorry to see Dean leave. I feel that is a failure on Microsoft's part in
supporting this game.
Regards,
John Wehman
Seagate Technology
That girl whom you so rudely refer to as "stupid", I thought posted a very
indepth report on CPR, she obviously spent a lot of time and effort ont
that review. I would applaud anyone taking the time to do that, and post
their review, as I'm sure it would be beneficial to both the consumer and
the developer. I would say that for either side, whether positive or
negative. I don't think Alison in any way is resposible for Dean leaving
the newsgroup, he has that choice, and has evidently made it. He also could
have chose to stay, and continue in the vein he has been. But don't blame
Alison for his leaving, that was his choice alone.
--
Don Burnette
I-65 Racing
Dburn on Ten
alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice
> a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and
> leave.. THANKS A LOT
> --
> Dave Otterness
The lady's review was nothing more, nothing less, than her personal view
of the game as run on her personal system. By detailing the conditions
under which she was running the game she may have helped others,
experiencing the same or similar problems, in that they would realise
that they were not the only pebble on the beach.
This is something that would NOT have been achieved by Alison directing
her problems to Dean privately.
It was certainly more refreshing than some of the over-hyped ***that
we read in the print media under the classification "Review".
--
Bruce
(at work)
"An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought."
(Simon Cameron)
"If you can't stand the heat........."
Alison's comments were completely non-abusive.....which is more than can
be said about yours.
If Dean took umbrage at the points that the lady was making, to the
extent of spitting the dummy, then that is his personal problem. Alison
did not cast an evil spell on him and banish him from the NG.
Did you stop to think that the reason he may have left in a huff is that
he did not have any logical answers for the (valid) points raised?
Storming off in a fit of temper is usually ascribed to children when
they don't get their own way.
I rest my case.
--
Bruce
(at work)
"An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought."
(Simon Cameron)
Excellently put, Richard.
--
Bruce
(at work)
"An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought."
(Simon Cameron)
Quoted text (7 lines)
>>No comment ... ! >What are you implying? AFAI remember that post was from a >guy who mentioned it here on r.a.s. and everyone read it, >myself (and I guess you) included. So because Alison quoted >the (good) information in her review that makes her a pirate? >Because she quoted it her opinion somehow becomes less >relevant?<snip>
<snip>
It is a shame, because it is thanks to you that I purchased CART PR. I
read what all the flamers on r.a.s. had to say about the game, applied my
usual
usenet S/N filter, downloaded the demo, and played it on my P-133. I
even had to turn stuff off. I have since upgraded to a PII-300, Monster 3D
system, and have the full version of the game, which runs beautifully, and
has given me a true appreciation of what real life CART drivers have to go
through to get their paychecks.
Anyhow, knowing that the concerns that people have in the game are being
addressed, and in an extremely timely (being a developer myself gives me
insight into what it takes to develop patches) fashion, and daily updates
about it from youpushed me over the edge. Microsoft gets a few more of my
bucks, and the one person that they can thank for that is you.
I would also gather that there are probably hundreds of other r.a.s.
lurkers out there that have similar stories.
I just want wish you and your team the best of luck, and hope that you
continue to develop this very promising sim to its utmost. I will be with
you every step of the way as a loyal consumer.
Sincerely,
--
Don Henry
% Dean,
% I don't blame you for leaving for a second. Check my other posting
% just written a few minutes ago. I personally have never seen a
% representative of a company or business put so much effort and time into
% helping it's customers and that's not an exaggeration. You DEFINITELY have
% helped many, many, people with CPR and I hope you feel good about that. I
% wish I had people like you working for me. Keep up the good work on CPR.
Oh, come on and let's be grown up about this. Many a Papyrus rep has
spent more time and took more heat than the CPR/Microsoft reps. I am
not condoning some of the behavior by any of the r.a.s. citizenry.
But, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Don't for
one second believe that CPR/Microsoft's presence here has been one that
is/was wholly altruistic. And don't doubt for a second that I believe
that it should be. However, they are/were using this forum for
marketing and spin control. To be perfectly honest, the post that
seemed to break the camel's back was not an abusive post. In fact I
personally found some of the "official CPR" replies to the post to be
abusive. I felt that there were some very valid issues being addressed
in the review of CPR that seems to have gotten Dean's goat. Some were
answered some where not.
This whole issue got out of hand a long time ago. It became a
"righteous" war. Anytime anyone said something negative about CPR, the
defenders jumped down their throats for being too harsh on the product.
Anytime anyone glowing praised the product the detractors jumped down
their throat. But, that's life in the anarchy of the usenet. As I
said, if you can't stand the heat, don't go into the kitchen.
% Dave
% > "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help
% and
% > criticism, anymore."
% >
% > OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out.
% >
% > I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry.
% >
% >
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
(snip)
Yeah but I bet her posted review and the following flames in Dean's
direction was the straw that broke the camel's back..
(unsnip)
If that's the case then the camel with such a weak back shouldn't have
been there in the first place.
--
Bruce
(at work)
"An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought."
(Simon Cameron)
> Lets now all enjoy the wonderful silence brought on by the
Usenet flamers, who have once again demonstrated why so many peoples'
eyes roll whenever someone mentions the word "newsgroup".
Sorry, Randy, but please -- get real. I have heard this statement so
many times I want to hurl, and it's always in the context of "oh, gosh
-- if these guys from Microsnuff come here in all their majesty and
someone says bad words to them, they will abandon all development on the
games we like! Boohoohoo." Great weeping and gnashing of teeth.
No, it's "bwaaaahaaahaaahaahaahaa!" The problem with people who climb
into a fishbowl -- especially those who climb in as "objective
observers" -- you know, like "digital journalists" -- is that the
fishbowl becomes their world. Realistically, what do you reckon the
total breathing population of RAS amounts to in terms of percentage of
the whole of MS, or anybody's, customer base for any given game/sim?
Here's a hint: it's a percentage that contains fewer than two digits.
For a company to rush-release a product with well-documented flaws, and
then send Ensign Schleppo into the lion's den for the first month of
that product's release...well, would *you* expect not to get singed a
bit? But here's old Dino -- he's put in his one-month term of service
and gotten fed up and decided to book. Not, however, before he takes the
highly-popular step of insulting everyone who disagrees with hte MS
party line on CPR. If ever a game NEEDED CPR, this is the one...
BTW, when I was on the Racing Information Services forum on CompuSlave,
I used to hear that happy horseshit all the time about how "real"
journalists and race teams would get the willies at the mere mention of
the word "Newsgroup" -- in fact, the usual response is "Huh?" The
visibility of maniacal splinter groups like this one is so far below the
noise threshhold of everyday life, that nobody outside the fishbowl even
knows the fishbowl exists.
Grab some perspective, Randy -- this ain't the UN...
Bart Brown
> Heheheh Bart you're making me laugh too much.. heh.. hasn't been this
> kind of stupid ***in here for awhile.. someone had to start it.. Have
> to admit it's been getting kinda boring with the same old posts..
> --
> Dave Otterness
I'd rather make you think than make you laugh, but it seems you don't
have the necessary configuration for *that* particular sim...
Bart
I applaud MS for listening to the critics of the game and quickly
working on a patch that hopes to address many of the problems that have
been found. However, I still think the real point here is that the game
should never have been released in it current state.
--
Eric T. Busch
http://ebusch.akorn.net
>you gotta be kidding.......Is that all you saw? the blame being passed
>on?..... so why are they coming out with this patch again? who is
being
>blamed for that? hmmmmmmm I havent heard them blaming anyone for the AI
>problems..I havent heard them blaming anyone for the rain tire bug. so
>please tell me who is being blamed for that? maybe just maybe they
admit the
>game isnt up to par and they are fixing it by listening and responding
to
>the major problems on this NG and not just a issolated incident that is
only
>happened to one person yeah there are alot of posts on this NG that
are not
>positive about this game but can you find one other post that says
their OS
>was corrupted. I am not saying this didnt happen but how much time do
you
>think they need to spend addressing ONE (1) issolated problem Its to
bad
>that people like you can run someone off who has been here addressing
the
>problems of this game can you name another game manufaturerthat does
this
>the way MS did GOOD JOB!!!!!!!!!!!
"by abandoning what is perhaps the greatest concentration
of sim racing knowledge anywhere."
Yeah, right. I'll tell you what. I have a mortgage/business/perso***loan
co. opening in another month or so. Why don't all the sim experts with
their great concentration of knowledge contact me and I'll set you up with
a business loan and you can create the perfect sim. I have no doubt it will
be the most incredible sim ever created. Maybe you can create some AI for
yourselves as well.
Perfectly said. What the people who drove Dean off this newsgroup don't
realize is that their comments weren't just incredibly rude at times but
were also sarcastic and monotonous in their complaints. Does anyone ever
remember Dean being rude in a posting? I don't. I don't know how much
influence some people think this newsgroup has, but it's not enough for
someone to have to take INSULTING comments. Trust me on that one.
Dave
>The lady's review was nothing more, nothing less, than her personal view
>of the game as run on her personal system. By detailing the conditions
>under which she was running the game she may have helped others,
>experiencing the same or similar problems, in that they would realise
>that they were not the only pebble on the beach.
And how does that help them, exactly?
I disagree. If she'd resolved the problems with Dean privately, she
might have actually provided solutions (if any were found) to those
people who experienced her problems. She still could have mentioned
the problems and knocked points off of the game because of them, but
she definitely could have helped anyone who had a similar problem
understand and fix it. Simply airing a complaint doesn't do anything
for those who might have a similar problem. Knowing I'm not alone
doesn't make the game any better.
Randy
Lets see, abusive..hmm...
"your whining, sniveling response"
"all your other rants about any negative response"
(abusive and a downright falsehood).
"Microsoft has seen fit to present someone as immature as you've"
More abuse.
"Poor baby!"
and it goes on.
But of course, for having the nerve to point this out, I bet you'll
turn the hose on me.
Randy
Thank you for yet another exhibit of why I wrote my plea for civility.
Randy
Quoted text (7 lines)
> Dean, > I don't blame you for leaving for a second. Check my other posting > just written a few minutes ago. I personally have never seen a > representative of a company or business put so much effort and time into > helping it's customers and that's not an exaggeration. You DEFINITELY have > helped many, many, people with CPR and I hope you feel good about that. I > wish I had people like you working for me. Keep up the good work on CPR.I don't think you'll find too many people that disagree with you here.
For kicks last night I did a Sunday Race at Milwaukee. It was total
mayhem. These guys couldn't get around the track at ALL. Spinouts,
collisions, etc..tons of cars bunched up. Ouch.
Yes, this game was DEFINITELY released well before it was done.
Thank God for the upcoming patch. I'm betting yellows are going to be
the next big project for them. Hopefully 6 months from now we'll all
be playing the best sim there is. But its going to take some more
agony from MS and TRI to get there.
Btw, I want to add that I think Alison's remarks about the steering
were dead on and I applaud the effort she put into critiquing the
center drift problem. I hope the null-zone fix in the patch fixes
that. Straight-wandering is one of the worst problems in this game.
Randy
> I'd like to add something here. Did Alison actually send an e-mail to Dean or
> anyone at Microsoft to get her problems addressed BEFORE she wrote her review
> publicly? Not that she is required to, but lets face it -- when you have a
> problem with a game, contacting the vendor should be job #1. Perhaps if there
Oh, you want to make sure that people only read YOUR objective reviews
on your
web site? We should stop discussing problems with sims on this ng? Well,
let's
just hand it over to CART-P(ublic) R(elations)...
l8er
ronny
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!
Yes, it seems companies are more interested in paying people to
support shithouse software in NG's/message boards than paying someone to
advise them on how to get it right first time round the merry-go-round!
Cars that crawl on the ovals??????, etc, etc.......... The sim has
potential but is in alpha. Shame, shame, shame! Those friggin' suits!
Here's an idea for a blockbuster - KILL THE SUITS! My name goes
straight to the top of the pre-order list. On second thoughts I may
prefer this to be more realistic than any computer will ever be able to
deliver. (note there is no smiley after this)
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and > > criticism, anymore." > > OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out. > Thanks a WHOLE lot alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice > a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and > leave.. THANKS A LOT > -- > Dave Otterness> "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and
> criticism, anymore."
> OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out.
Lookout, another Sierra, EA, ....................................
I must say that maybe I sympathise to a point, but if your not part
of it yourself then you are at least associated with the good ole "get
it out for Xmas" or "get it out before the other guy" and "rake the
money in" mentality that will ultimately be the downfall of many current
giants. My advise - get your money from this title, cut the strings with
MS and whatever other suits get in the way of quality and DO IT
YOURSELF! RELEASE IT WHEN IT'S READY or GET USED TO THE SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quoted text (9 lines)
> "by abandoning what is perhaps the greatest concentration > of sim racing knowledge anywhere." > Yeah, right. I'll tell you what. I have a mortgage/business/perso***loan > co. opening in another month or so. Why don't all the sim experts with > their great concentration of knowledge contact me and I'll set you up with > a business loan and you can create the perfect sim. I have no doubt it will > be the most incredible sim ever created. Maybe you can create some AI for > yourselves as well.Quoted text (30 lines)
> I have to be amused by this statement. I do not own CPR, and I have no > plans for buying it, but I have read many/most of the posts concerning > CPR (the main reason why I never bought it). One of the few good points > on CPR was that Microsoft engineers took the time to contact with > consumers directly through r.a.s. This seems to have backfired on them, > as Dean immaturely cries foul and takes his ball and goes home. Dean, > are you crazy? This can only do harm to Microsoft and sales of CPR. > Geez, if I were your boss, I'd fire you ! heh. What happened to the old > adage "the customer is always right" ? Of course there will always be > obnoxious annoying customers, but you should be mature enough to > recognize this and ignore them. I think you were behind the 8-ball to > begin with since there is a lot of anti-Microsoft sentiment out there. > If you really did get fed up with all the whiners on this newsgroup, > then you should have just stopped reading, but to come up with statement > can do no good at all to yourself or your product. > For me personally, I don't care whether you stay or leave, but I have > noticed that often times you simply do not react to negative comments > and purely try to paint a bright picture. I think people would trust you > better if sometimes you could come out and say "yeah, you're right, CPR > can't do this, perhaps we made a mistake in releasing it too soon" etc, > instead of reacting to negative comments as personal attacks. I think > 99% of the people with negative points about CPR have a valid reason for > them , and instead of saying "no, you are wrong, you set up your system > incorrectly", etc., you would be much more effective if you at least > recognized the customer's viewpoint/opinion, no matter what it is. > By leaving the newsgroup in this manner, you are conceding that the > whiners/complainers are right, and you and Microsoft can't hack it > (which may be true anyways, who knows) > -Dan P> I'd like to add something here. Did Alison actually send an e-mail to Dean or
> anyone at Microsoft to get her problems addressed BEFORE she wrote her review
> publicly? Not that she is required to, but lets face it -- when you have a
> problem with a game, contacting the vendor should be job #1.
-snip-
Sorry, but this is not just a system issue. Job#1 is return it and
let everyone else be the UNPAID BETA TESTERS ie SLAVES!
Quoted text (7 lines)
> But don't you think that he's put up with a lot of ***lately.. He > acknowledges problems with the game and the patch to fix them, but he > continued to get flamed.. I personally woulda been out of here weeks > ago.. But Dean had the nuts to stay and try to explain things to > people... > -- > Dave OtternessQuoted text (10 lines)
>>>No comment ... ! >>What are you implying? AFAI remember that post was from a >>guy who mentioned it here on r.a.s. and everyone read it, >>myself (and I guess you) included. So because Alison quoted >>the (good) information in her review that makes her a pirate? >>Because she quoted it her opinion somehow becomes less >>relevant? >I believe the man said "No comment"...You shouldn't mock, it's already been done. Complete AI reworks, a
whole load of carsets, a few tracks, game editors, magazines,
rewritten manuals, blah, waffle, yadda, and you can also keep the
loan because it's all free.
Look on Michael Carver's site, look on Jan and Jed's site, look on
Marc Nelson's site. These guys do a LOT of work which you get free of
charge but you can mock their efforts and flame the hell out of them
whenever you want? How much more have you enjoyed these sims thanks to
what this "greatest concentration of sim-racing knowledge" has brought
you.....?
Cheers!
John
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:24:20 -0600, David Otterness
>Thanks a WHOLE lot alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice
>a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and
>leave.. THANKS A LOT
Let's see - ignorance, sexism, chauvinism and abuse. Heck, it's lucky
Alison isn't black, you could have gone for the full house of insults.
Take a look at Alison's website and you'll see just how much of a
"stupid girl" she is. If you ever line up alongside her in either a
sim or a real car, I've got 10 bucks on Alison....
John
> I applaud MS for listening to the critics of the game and quickly
> working on a patch that hopes to address many of the problems that have
> been found. However, I still think the real point here is that the game
> should never have been released in it current state.
I also think that many see Dean's leaving as a result of 1 post in
particular and some insulting ones in general. I think it is the result
of unbearable embarrassment.
Quoted text (7 lines)
> But don't you think that he's put up with a lot of ***lately.. He > acknowledges problems with the game and the patch to fix them, but he > continued to get flamed.. I personally woulda been out of here weeks > ago.. But Dean had the nuts to stay and try to explain things to > people... > -- > Dave OtternessQuoted text (8 lines)
> Alison-- > You did a hell of a job in your review oF CPR...I hope Mr. Lester's > crybaby response doesn't deter you from telling it like it is in future. > Keep up the great work! > Bart BrownQuoted text (28 lines)
> Hi John, > >>Here's a posting from ras just yesterday that doesn't sound consistent > with > >>your experience ... > >I read that, but Dean this guy was happy running CPR on a P60! Okay, > >everyone has their point of view, but "CPR runs on a 60 and fine on a > >90" isn't a point of view I would point to as being representative. I > >personally tried the CPR demo on a P225MMX with 60Mhz 3dFX and found > >it extremely disappointing. I can't even begin to imagine it on an > >unaccelerated P60... <shudder> > Please read my comments again, you may have misunderstood me. > >"I run it on a 3dfx 200mhz FF system and it runs beautifully. > >I also run on a Pentium 60 and Pentium 90 laptops. It runs slow (but runs) > >on a 60 and runs fine on a 90. > >The difference can be almost compared to the way quake runs normal and then > >the GL version. > >Note how many followers did Quake get before the advent of 3d cards? > I am not happy running on a 60mhz, but in my rush to install this I forgot > that a Minimum > machine specification existed:) I did only say that it ran...albiet slowly.-snip-
So how's the AI, etc, etc, etc on your perfectly configured system?
And isn't the game supposed to be compatable with all D3D cards. And
isn't MS the maker of D3D? And just another question? What about the
people not on the net? What a great reason to get on the net - so that
you can DL all the patches for the shithouse software all over the
place. Fabulous!
Randy,
Many good points. I would also like to point out that its most likely
not in Dean's job description and duties that he HAD to be on RAS. I
think he was here to help people and also gain insight into what
improvements could be made to the game. If I were Dean... I would have
told many of you to bite me long before he finally gave up. He may have
alot of responsibilities in creating/marketing the game, etc... but I
doubt taking ABUSE ,(not criticism), Abuse from many of you was not one
of them.
I saw a few people who were critical of the game but were polite and
provided insight into what needed to be corrected. Kudos to you. But
many of you just said this game sucks, you blow,***microsoft....
blah blah blah. My job requires me to deal with many people regarding
their finances and money. When someone approaches me like that I simply
respond... there are only two people here that are concerned with your
situation.... and one them is losing interest quickly. My boss loves
that approach to calm the person(s) down.
Everyone gets disappointed and ticked about things... but to continually
abuse and attack someone who has nothing to gain but help make the
product hes working on better makes no sense and just ruins it for all
those out there who needed help from Dean and wanted to place their
input. After all... it is just a game. (SIM.. sorry guys ;) ).
BTW.. I do not own or have the preview of CPR. So im not for or against
the product. Just my .02
Scott B. Husted
[link lost in import: /~sbhusted]
Quoted text (70 lines)
> >> This seems to have backfired on them, as Dean immaturely cries foul and > takes his ball and goes home. >> > Yeah, DEAN is the immature one here...right. > >> Dean, are you crazy? This can only do harm to Microsoft and sales of CPR. > Oh, that's rich. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, right? > >> Geez, if I were your boss, I'd fire you ! >> > Why don't you send your resume to Microsoft and enclose a copy of your usenet > posting as a sample. I'm sure they'll hire you so that you can fire Dean. > >> heh. What happened to the old adage "the customer is always right" ? > The bad customers killed it over the last 20 years. > >> I think you were behind the 8-ball to > begin with since there is a lot of anti-Microsoft sentiment out there. << > True, but if it were as powerful as some people think, Microsoft wouldn't be as > successful as it is. I work for one of Microsoft's competitors and so I know > what it is to go up against them, but there's at least some respect there as > well. > >> but to come up with statement can do no good at all to yourself or your > product. > Dean probably figures he's got nothing to lose at this point, and I don't blame > him. > >> but I have noticed that often times you simply do not react to negative > comments and purely try to paint a bright picture. >> > He's a representative of the company that makes CPR. Painting a bright picture > for customers is part of his job. > >> I think people would trust you better if sometimes you could come out and > say "yeah, you're right, CPR can't do this, perhaps we made a mistake in > releasing it too soon" etc, >> > Oh, yeah, that would really defuse the bashers.... > >> instead of reacting to negative comments as personal attacks. >> > Its amazing here how the victim has become the bad guy. Dean's put himself out > here time and time again and patiently dealt with people who were just > downright abusive, and the one time he finally says "enough" and leaves, two > people jump on his case and tell him that somehow HE is at fault for all of it. > << you would be much more effective if you at least > recognized the customer's viewpoint/opinion, no matter what it is.>> > He did and does. > >> By leaving the newsgroup in this manner, you are conceding that the > whiners/complainers are right, and you and Microsoft can't hack it >> > By leaving the newsgroup he's doing something probably well deserved...letting > some of the abusive folks here eat static for awhile, as we all did with > Microprose and GP2. Lets now all enjoy the wonderful silence brought on by the > Usenet flamers, who have once again demonstrated why so many peoples' eyes roll > whenever someone mentions the word "newsgroup". > Randy > Randy Magruder > Staff Writer > Digital Sportspage > [link lost in import]I'm sure everyone here will agree with you on this point, but
realistically, you can't blame them. Like it or not (I don't!),
Christmas is commercialized. It's all about money...
- Mike.
====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================
>Btw, I want to add that I think Alison's remarks about the steering
>were dead on and I applaud the effort she put into critiquing the
>center drift problem. I hope the null-zone fix in the patch fixes
>that. Straight-wandering is one of the worst problems in this game.
But, just remember that *not everyone is having that problem*...
I know it's not a problem on my machine and the demo... Should
anyone have it? Absolutely not. But, again, MS for all its people
and all its money, can't possibly test the program on every possible
computer configuration...
They're working on it - that's all you can ask for at this point...
- Mike.
====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================
{re: CPR crashing win95}
No one said that....
That's not practical and not worth it. Think about it... do you know
what she was doing during the install? Maybe she had other
programs running in the background? Maybe she had to stop
the installation for some reason and had to restart it... Maybe
she left her comptuer for some reason, the screen saver kicked
in, and for some crazy reason, that caused the problem. My point
is, it could have been a freak coincidence of two seemingly
unrelated events happening together - stuff that would not happen
in 99.99% of all CPR installations. She said herself that after the
installation, it ran fine, and only later when she restarted did it
crash... Do you know what she did between the time she stopped
running CPR and the time she re-started her computer? Only she
does, and she did not provide all that information...
So, MS could spend months trying to duplicate the problem and
never see it (no one else has complained about it........). Instead,
they chose to spend time and energy on THE PATCH that everyone's
been crying for...
I'm not a fan of MS by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems
to me that they can't do ANYTHING right for the people here simply
because they *are* MS... If this was ICR3 by Papy, with the exact
same problems, would the attitude here be different... I think so...
I don't think so... if one detail is left out, no matter how small,
that could be the defining detail. I've already given you 2 or 3 things
that could have happened that you, I, or Microsost has no way of
knowing until she tells them...
No it's not. It's biased. She seems to have something against
MS (and I'm not saying that's wrong), but to take it out on Dean
personally is not the way to get anything accomplished. Look
at her "other opinions" section of the review - NOT ONE positive
review! It's misleading at best, but closer to dishonest in my book.
She never gave him a chance... he posted his thoughts (very
promptly, I might add) and then people just blasted the guy
with insults and *** theories and whatnot for any
technical problem they've ever had...
- Mike.
====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================
Or unwilling...
Right - but you have absolutely no way of knowing what his thoughts
were. You shouldn't read into things like that. (But, on the other hand,
I agree that you shouldn't write things like that which are open to
interpretation - *especially* on Usenet!) :-)
It sure does - but we have no idea what that message is, so we
shouldn't speculate...
I'm not really disagreeing with you, but what you wrote were more
like accusations than questions...
- Mike.
====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================
>Not the intelligent, informative debate that Alison provided.
A "debate" implies two sides... Alison's review was totally
one sided... even in the "other voices" (or whatever it was
called) section, nearly everything was negative... not one of
her "other voices" had anything good to say about CPR... I
don't think that's truthful...
I took the time to check out her site... I think she's biased to
Papy's sim, I think she's got chips on her shoulders about
Microsoft and men, and I think she's a little***y... So what?
Well, for one thing, her little joke about Microsoft (which I
do find very funny - I've seen it before and passed it on
myself) just leads me to believe her review is prejudiced...
- Mike.
PS - In keeping with the thread topic, I totally *disagree* with
those who are blaming Alison for Dean's departure... his leaving
was by choice and the result of weeks and weeks of abuse...
====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================
>> I don't blame you for leaving for a second.
> I do. The occasional flame
"Occasional"?? have you been reading this group for the past month?
Up to a point - but day after day after day of the same complaints
can be tiring... how many times did Dean answer the SAME
questions over and over and over because people didn't read the
posts from the day before? How many times did he read the SAME
complaints over and over and over because people just like to say
"me too"?
I don't like it that he left, and I don't think it was good PR to leave,
but he is, after all, a human being like the rest of us... he isn't the
big corporate monster everyone would like to believe he is... he
isn't personally responsible for everything Microsoft does, yet
people took all their frustrations with MS, tech support, and
the weather in Seattle out on the poor guy...
All he is a normal guy and a race fan trying to do his job and bring
a little public comment into MS to try to improve the game to make
it better for *us* while at the same time trying to promote his
project and his company... who would do less?
Sheesh...
- Mike.
====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================
Good Post XRaceTrak =)
Scott B. Husted
[link lost in import: /~sbhusted]
Quoted text (64 lines)
> {re: CPR crashing win95} > >So it didn't happen? > No one said that.... > >>I am not saying this didnt happen but how much time do > >>you think they need to spend addressing ONE (1) issolated > >>problem > >As long as it takes. > That's not practical and not worth it. Think about it... do you know > what she was doing during the install? Maybe she had other > programs running in the background? Maybe she had to stop > the installation for some reason and had to restart it... Maybe > she left her comptuer for some reason, the screen saver kicked > in, and for some crazy reason, that caused the problem. My point > is, it could have been a freak coincidence of two seemingly > unrelated events happening together - stuff that would not happen > in 99.99% of all CPR installations. She said herself that after the > installation, it ran fine, and only later when she restarted did it > crash... Do you know what she did between the time she stopped > running CPR and the time she re-started her computer? Only she > does, and she did not provide all that information... > So, MS could spend months trying to duplicate the problem and > never see it (no one else has complained about it........). Instead, > they chose to spend time and energy on THE PATCH that everyone's > been crying for... > I'm not a fan of MS by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems > to me that they can't do ANYTHING right for the people here simply > because they *are* MS... If this was ICR3 by Papy, with the exact > same problems, would the attitude here be different... I think so... > > She had done nearly all the research that MS would need to > > narrow down the problem. > I don't think so... if one detail is left out, no matter how small, > that could be the defining detail. I've already given you 2 or 3 things > that could have happened that you, I, or Microsost has no way of > knowing until she tells them... > > She has it posted on her Web site. It's nice work. > No it's not. It's biased. She seems to have something against > MS (and I'm not saying that's wrong), but to take it out on Dean > personally is not the way to get anything accomplished. Look > at her "other opinions" section of the review - NOT ONE positive > review! It's misleading at best, but closer to dishonest in my book. > > Dean chose to not help her. > She never gave him a chance... he posted his thoughts (very > promptly, I might add) and then people just blasted the guy > with insults and *** theories and whatnot for any > technical problem they've ever had... > - Mike. > ==================================================== > Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN > I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"... > ====================================================Ditto Racetak
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:11:10 -0000, "Trevor Dwyer"
>Please read my comments again, you may have misunderstood me.
Hi Trevor,
I don't think I did. You mentioned that "it runs fine on a 90" - that
is what I was questioning, that and the fact that Dean could select
one (somewhat dubious, given the above) positive post and consider
that it suitably countered what was said.
What sort of frame-rate did you get on the unaccelerated P90 that you
considered fine, and was it with or without AI? I played CPR again
last night (first time in ages) and really enjoyed racing Surfer's
again. I'd just like both the frame-rate and the driving to be
predictable and consistent.
Cheers!
John
Rich,
He will be missed. Maybe not by you, but by MANY people who were helped
my Dean. Its a shame the people who attack him act like victims.
Typical of so much of todays society. (The attack part was not directed
at you Rich - just generally speaking).
Scott B. Husted
[link lost in import: /~sbhusted]
Quoted text (37 lines)
> On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:22:13 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)" > >"The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and > >criticism, anymore." > >OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out. > >I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry. > You know, Dean, a couple of weeks or so ago I would have implored you to > stay. But frankly on the basis of your recent propaganda and flaming of > someone who was only trying to produce an objective review of CPR, I'm > really not sure that you will be missed. > You came in all e***d that you had a world beating sim only to find > that the top sim racers are a little more demanding than your in house > drivers. But you remained upbeat and helpful. > Then your initial very helpful presence became increasingly what appeared > to be a damage limitation exercise and rounding on anyone who offered > criticism (whether constructive or destructive). > You left. > Anyway, I do wish you luck with future versions of CPR. But if you are > going to promote it as a *sim* then please, please, *PLEASE*, make sure > that someone who really knows about sim racing has input to it. > Cheers, > Richard > PS: If you really *are* interested in responding to *constructive* > criticism, you are very welcome to contribute to the Motorsports section > of the Sports Simulation (SPRTSIMS) forum on Compuserve. You will find > some very knowledgable sim racers there and it is a flame free zone <g> > Don't expect an easy ride, but you will NOT need Nomex underwear....Quoted text (15 lines)
> "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and > criticism, anymore." > OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out. > I'm joining the other sim publishers and leaving you to it. Sorry. > If anyone of the hundreds of people here we have helped and who are enjoying > the game > cares to reply to this thread then great - but I'm out of here. > The patch and track editor will posted on the MS/TRI site soon - take a look > to see when it's posted. > Bye.[snip, and attribution for the ">>>" parts -sorry]
I am afraid this is not really relevant. I have to deal with
customers, too (although not in the computing business). Some
customers are nice, sensible people. Some customers are really big
***s (excuse my french). Nonetheless, all customers are always
right. They pay my money. Faced with the obnoxious variety, I may
think: "You are one self-righteous heap of shit!", but I say: "Yes,
certainly, sir! I am sorry for the inconvenience. Your complaint will
be dealt with immediately. I will personally see to it." When I have
left the premises, I may slam the door of the car a bit harder than
necessary to close it; I may yell obscenities into the air and bite a
chunk out of the steering wheel, but I will always (well, almost
always) be polite to customers. And try to solve their (imagined)
problems. Such is business.
I don't blame Dean, the person, either. In fact, I can understand him
all too well. But I think too that showing so much emotion is not a
clever move for the representative of a software company in a public
forum.
See, Randy, you're doing a great job for the producers of "Road to
Indy" in this group by trying to show that this game has its merits,
too. But you're not getting paid for it. Now, if *you* as a private
person decided not to touch that topic anymore to avoid the flames, I
could understand that. I'm somewhat puzzled, however, that a MS-rep,
who can (in his capacity as a developer and "salesman") only profit
from being here, quits and even announces his leaving in such a
manner. I am even more surprised since this is not a real time medium.
You can always read / get angry / break some innocent pieces of
furniture / relax / answer - in this particular order. You don't have
to answer right away.
[snip]
Again, I can understand that an individual person reacts like this. I
just think it makes a difference when you are the representative of a
company and dealing with customers. I, if I were in this situation and
had decided to quit, would either just have stopped posting, or
formally declared that I was leaving the group alone to concentrate on
my other work. Dean's last posting just appears a bit - I'm sorry -
unprofessional in that respect.
[snip]
I'm sorry, but this is not a professional way of handling
(prospective) customers. You can't "punish" them by withdrawing your
love and attention - that is really immature and unprofessional. Once
again, I understand exactly how much it takes to remain calm under
such circumstances, but I strongly believe that you have to be able to
ignore the flames if you're appearing as the official representative
of your company in front of your customers - no matter how stupid and
immature some of *them* may be.
--
Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.
wopr"at"stud.uni-sb.de \ There is no "2" in my real e-mail address.
Uni des Saarlands \ Sorry for the inconvenience. You know why.
That would mean he was unable to because he was unwilling - same
difference.
If someone makes no comment (i.e. writes nothing) then I can read
nothing into it. If someone specifically takes the time to write "no
comment" it _forces_ you to read something into it. I merely asked for
clarification on what, if anything, was meant, so that I wouldn't draw
the wrong conclusion, in other words I didn't read anything into it at
all.
Not unless you intend them to be open to interpretation, but then you
shouldn't cry "foul" if people do.
I didn't.
No, what Dean wrote _could_ be construed as accusations, depennding on
if he was implying something and what specifically it was. I didn't
like that implication, if indeed that's what it was, and requested
clarification.
Whew. Hope that's clear now :)
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (14 lines)
> On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:44 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)" > >"How do you sort out the chasis?" - try a Test Session (in the garage > >screen) > "How do you sort out the chassis...when lack of tire temps prevent > adjustment of camber, toe-in and toe-out (and pressure to a lesser > extent), and when woolly steering gets in the way of what the car is > telling you?". The test session solves none of these problems, > although I hope that the patch will, at least for the woolly steering. > I doubt that tire temps could be added, which is a shame since this is > a pretty big omission considering several setup adjustments were > included which heavily rely upon tire temp readings.Mike..
If i was In part responsible for selling you an unfinished prouduct, or
ripping you off, or telling you that Im about to sell you the best SIM ever
and it turned out to be CPR, would you not abuse me as well?
But poor old dean and the guru's at TRI go crying home after asking SIM and
racing experts alike in this group what their game is like, we told them,
they defended, we told them again, the left. Kittens lost their mittens.
And also I do not see any abuse going on, people pounded them with FACTS
not fiction.
The fact being the game is a pretty damed poor race sim, and one of the
worst at that.
Take it like Men TRI Guys.
Jason L'Hirondelle
Remove x to reply.
% >Not the intelligent, informative debate that Alison provided.
% A "debate" implies two sides... Alison's review was totally
% one sided... even in the "other voices" (or whatever it was
% called) section, nearly everything was negative... not one of
% her "other voices" had anything good to say about CPR... I
% don't think that's truthful...
After all the "glossed-over -- this is great" posts about CPR, her
observations were an attempt to address the "glossed over" problems with
CPR. I for one don't care for a product just because its got some
"gee-whizz bang-bang" good parts, but also has some "glaring" holes. I
understand that there are quite a few people who are happy and pleased
as punch with CPR. Fine, that's good, that's business, that's life...
On the other hand there are people who demand a complete product and one
that lives up to its hype. And why doesn't one have as much right to be
as vocal about the shortcomings as those who "preach" the glory. The
truth is that CPR does not live up to its claims of being a simulation
of CART racing in all its glory. When the emporer has no clothes, one
can either say the emporer has not clothes, or "yeah, but he's got cute
cheeks!". <G>
% I took the time to check out her site... I think she's biased to
% Papy's sim, I think she's got chips on her shoulders about
% Microsoft and men, and I think she's a little***y... So what?
% Well, for one thing, her little joke about Microsoft (which I
% do find very funny - I've seen it before and passed it on
% myself) just leads me to believe her review is prejudiced...
My oh my, you are welcome to your observations, but I highly doubt their
validity. You can read that much into her review and website? You are
in the wrong business. Try 1-900-PSYHIC-PHYSCOLOGIST! While you are
welcome to your thoughts, I really think accusing someone of whom you
know nothing about as having "chips on her shoulders about Microsoft and
men" as immature and uncalled for. Talk about abusive posts.....
% PS - In keeping with the thread topic, I totally *disagree* with
% those who are blaming Alison for Dean's departure... his leaving
% was by choice and the result of weeks and weeks of abuse...
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> >> This seems to have backfired on them, as Dean immaturely cries foul and
> takes his ball and goes home. >>
> Yeah, DEAN is the immature one here...right.
Making a post from a corporate account with the real name of "CART
don't like what's being said here about my product; I'm leaving"
doesn't seem very mature or professional.
And I know that it would have gotten me a stern tongue-lashing or
worse when I worked at Papyrus. (The first time that I no longer had
to silenty take abuse on Papyrus' behalf was one of the sweetest
moments in my post-Papyrus life...)
---Jim
% >The lady's review was nothing more, nothing less, than her personal view
% >of the game as run on her personal system. By detailing the conditions
% >under which she was running the game she may have helped others,
% >experiencing the same or similar problems, in that they would realise
% >that they were not the only pebble on the beach.
% And how does that help them, exactly?
% >This is something that would NOT have been achieved by Alison directing
% >her problems to Dean privately.
% I disagree. If she'd resolved the problems with Dean privately, she
% might have actually provided solutions (if any were found) to those
% people who experienced her problems. She still could have mentioned
% the problems and knocked points off of the game because of them, but
% she definitely could have helped anyone who had a similar problem
% understand and fix it. Simply airing a complaint doesn't do anything
% for those who might have a similar problem. Knowing I'm not alone
% doesn't make the game any better.
I got a big kick out of one of Dean's answers to her problems. "Here,
I'll send you a 3dfx card, that should make you like the game". Hell,
maybe that's the answer. Microsoft should be selling CPR for $54.95
with a bundled (free) 3dfx card. Then maybe I would consider buying the
product. Since it seems that the only way they were able to get good
reviews was to supply the reviewers with top of the line equipment. I
mean even the reviews that pointed out some of the weak points of the
product admitted it really needed equipment they didn't own in order to
truly experience the product. BTW: I always enjoy reviews that say if
you make a $3000+ hardware upgrade, you'll love this $40.00 product.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
% you gotta be kidding.......Is that all you saw? the blame being passed
% on?..... so why are they coming out with this patch again? who is being
% blamed for that? hmmmmmmm I havent heard them blaming anyone for the AI
% problems..I havent heard them blaming anyone for the rain tire bug. so
% please tell me who is being blamed for that? maybe just maybe they admit the
% game isnt up to par and they are fixing it by listening and responding to
% the major problems on this NG and not just a issolated incident that is only
% happened to one person yeah there are alot of posts on this NG that are not
% positive about this game but can you find one other post that says their OS
% was corrupted. I am not saying this didnt happen but how much time do you
% think they need to spend addressing ONE (1) issolated problem Its to bad
% that people like you can run someone off who has been here addressing the
% problems of this game can you name another game manufaturerthat does this
% the way MS did GOOD JOB!!!!!!!!!!!
Part of the problem here isn't that they are releasing a patch to fix
the product. The problem is that they released a product that was
incomplete!!! I don't mean a minor thing here or there. But one that
had glaring problems. The AI is not a bug, that was poor programming
and not just something that appeared after the product went gold. The
poor frame rate problems, yeah, that only appeared after the product
went gold. However, there is a new and emerging mentality that says,
yeah sell me shoddy merchandise, I have faith you can do it right. Just
send me a patch. Well, I for one don't necessarily have faith in a
company that can't get it right the first time to get it right after
they have my money. If they could do it right, it should be right when
I hand over my money. Maybe for some people $50 ain't anything to worry
about. If that's the case, I sure wished I had those kinda problems.
<G>
BTW: The ONE (1) issolated problem that CPR's team had to address over
and over was that the product was not complete and did not live up to
its hype.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
% >However, I still think the real point here is that the game
% > should never have been released in it current state.
% I'm sure everyone here will agree with you on this point, but
% realistically, you can't blame them. Like it or not (I don't!),
% Christmas is commercialized. It's all about money...
And they ain't getting mine until it's done right. Go ahead and feed
the machinery that produces sub-standard and unfinished products, just
because it's Christmas and the time of the year that people foolishly
forget the value of money. As long as we continue to shovel $$$$ into
that hungry craw, we keep seeing the same results come out the other
end. You reap what you sow.
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jason,
First... its highly subjective determining if you were "ripped off"
Secondly... MANY people here do enjoy that sim. The BEST sim out there
is also highly subjective. You, me, or any other individual do not
determine if it is a rip off, the best sim, or an incomplete product for
everyone else. EVERY individual has the right to make that distinction
for themself. Do you consider it a ripoff.. if so, then it is to YOU...
maybe NOT for EVERYONE else. Take the game back.
I do not have the game. I do not degrade it. I do not praise it.
However, If I did purchase the product.... I have the right to MY
opinion. I do not, however, have the right to verbally abuse someone
who is here to help those who need it and aid in making the product the
best it can be. Dean would answer the same questions over and over and
over and no matter what answer he gave... It was always wrong.
If they game does not work on my P166 with 32 SDRAM etc etc but it does
on someone elses... that does not mean the game sucks and is worthless
because it doesnt work on MY machine!!! It means there is obviously
something different with MY machine... whether it be software, hardware,
or settings oriented.
Everyone should try and remember... for everyone who hates the game,
there is someone who loves and enjoys it. The debate over whether it is
a sim or an arcade game is irrelevent. If someone enjoys it... that is
all that matters. Again... it is just a sim (I didnt say game guys and
gals!!! ;) ).
As for Dean, I do not blame him for leaving. However, it is a shame for
those he helped and for those who wont have the opportunity to be
helped.
Because of those individuals who personally attacked an individual
trying to help and gather insight, others must go without. Dean, I wish
you would have thought more about those who needed your help and insight
and not just those who are gonna *** even if the game was perfect in
every way. They would then be ***ing because there is nothing to
*** about.
Scott B. Husted
[link lost in import: /~sbhusted]
Quoted text (29 lines)
> Mike.. > If i was In part responsible for selling you an unfinished prouduct, or > ripping you off, or telling you that Im about to sell you the best SIM ever > and it turned out to be CPR, would you not abuse me as well? > But poor old dean and the guru's at TRI go crying home after asking SIM and > racing experts alike in this group what their game is like, we told them, > they defended, we told them again, the left. Kittens lost their mittens. > And also I do not see any abuse going on, people pounded them with FACTS > not fiction. > The fact being the game is a pretty damed poor race sim, and one of the > worst at that. > Take it like Men TRI Guys. > > - Mike. > > PS - In keeping with the thread topic, I totally *disagree* with > > those who are blaming Alison for Dean's departure... his leaving > > was by choice and the result of weeks and weeks of abuse... > > ==================================================== > > Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN > > I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"... > > ==================================================== > > -- > Jason L'Hirondelle > Remove x to reply.Yeah I remember him maybe he realised he wasn't as good as he thought he was
I'm not arguing about that... I'm just saying she presented all
negative and no positive, and that's not a "debate" to me...
When I said "I think" 3 times, and followed it with a "So what?"
I thought I was being clear that those were just my opinions and
don't mean squat to anyone besides me....
I didn't claim they were valid. All I did was share *my* impression
of her... They could be completely wrong. That's why I very carefully
prefaced everything I said about her with "I think".
How do you know what business I am in? Is that wheere you work?
:-) :-) :-)
I DID NOT ACCUSE HER OF THAT!! Sheesh...
What do you think it means when someone says "I think"? Nowehere
did I say "She IS..." anything. I'm sure she's a very nice person. We'd
probably get along great in real life. From her website, I get the
impression that we have a lot of similar interests. Maybe we don't,
but all I am saying is that is my *impression* from what little I do
know of the woman.
Hardly... you just read more into it than you should have...
- Mike.
====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================
> _could_ be
> depending on
> if he was implying
> if
>Whew. Hope that's clear now :)
Yep. It is to me at least... as to the other folks around here
figuring it out, well..............er.............no comment...
<BAG>
- Mike.
====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================
> If i was In part responsible for selling you an unfinished prouduct,
> or ripping you off, or telling you that Im about to sell you the best
> SIM ever and it turned out to be CPR, would you not abuse me
> as well?
No! Because, number 1, I don't believe everything I see or read
(that means I understand there is going to be hype). And number
2, I would check it out, see what it had to offer, and if I didn't like
it, I would tell you why (politely!) and return it... Then, I'd tell all
my friends about why I didn't like it, but not to take my word for
it and to go try it themselves... Is that so hard to do?
(Note - the rest of this is not directed at you specifically, Jason,
but the general r.a.s. population...)
The problem isn't *what* you told them. It's *how* you told them.
Nobody deserves to be treated like Dean et al were... If the people
here were looking at a person instead of a computer monitor, they
wouldn't say half the ***they say... Personally, I try not to say
one thing here that I wouldn't say to someone's face...
And pounded and pounded and pounded! How many times do
people have to be told that there is a patch coming before they
figure it out? Granted, it shouldn't have been released in its
current state - GET OVER IT! It's been done. It cannot be changed
now. Now, quit whining about the same things and give the
patch a chance... I don't judge anyone by the goofs they make -
I make a lot of them myself - but rather by what they do to correct
them.
That is not fact. That is YOUR OPINION. That's one problem in this
group - not enough people know the difference...
- Mike.
====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================
Have you *read* any of Alison's posts? She did *NOT* say that statement
that you & Dean seem to have attributed to her.
Alison put a lot of effort into trying to track down a problem and got
dismissed for her efforts.
If you want to blame anyone, blame those who posted "CPR sux" messages
without offering any justification. Typically, they are the sort of
bigoted idiots who flame away without checking their facts....
Cheers,
Richard
your web site?
Nothing more pathetic than when people on Usenet try to act like they know what
someone else's motivations are. I welcome all reviews. I don't get paid for
the reviews I write. I have no problem with reviews written by other people.
Quite often I hook up with these people on the phone and we have great
conversations about sims and sometimes we end up modem-racing. In fact, I
think Alison's review of the steering null-spot was dead-on and badly needed to
be written. All I can say about your little cheapshot about my motivations is:
Grow up.
hand it over to CART-P(ublic) R(elations)...
"
No. I'm just saying if she had a technical problem she might have tried to
resolve it with MS first and then written up her experiences (both problems &
solutions or lack of solutions) in the review. Just to eliminate all
possibility that its pilot-error.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
not a problem on my machine and the demo... Should anyone have it? Absolutely
not. But, again, MS for all its people
and all its money, can't possibly test the program on every possible computer
configuration...>>>
My computer configuration is a stock-delivered Dell XPS D300 with a
SoundBlaster AWE 64 and a Thrustmaster NASCAR Pro Wheel hooked into its
gameport. How much more standard can I get?!
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
Thanks for a well-reasoned post. And I expected nothing but flames this
morning! :)
(although not in the computing business).
Yeah I realize I probably overstated my point. But I do think that the
software business is a lot different than most other business. Most of the
products you buy are not products which can be patched or updated or have a
Version 2 released on them. Also, most products you buy don't have to work
with gazillion other combinations of products. As such, the margin for error
is much larger for a piece of software than it is for, say, a toaster. (Now if
Microsoft gets its way and sticks Windows CE in toasters, that'll be a
different story!)
As a result, the communication lines between customer and developer are more
strained. People also tend to invest a lot more into their software than they
do most other things they buy. Again, with the toaster if that new Black &
Decker fails you, you take it back and get it replaced or get a refund and buy
a different brand. You're not going to go up on Usenet and flame Black &
Decker for releasing a toaster before it was ready (well at least I haven't
seen that particular thread yet, but this is Usenet..anything could happen!).
So there is a very different dynamic at work here. Its valid in some senses to
compare the two business models, but not in others. The other interesting
issue is whether Microsoft is requiring its employees to be online helping out.
The software business itself has changed a lot in the past 5 years. For
instance, you used to pay $300-$500 for a Windows database product and get free
technical support. Today the same database might cost you $99 and in exchange
you pay for your support. Similarly, Microsoft is selling a $50 game here, and
the question is, is Microsoft obligated to provide free support for that $50
product or just offer refunds to the people who are unhappy with it? I don't
know. I'm not a MS bean counter and couldn't tell you. Ideally, yeah they
should support everything they have with all the resources they have and it
should be free. But as we've discovered, its not an ideal situation we have
here. If Dean is volunteering his own personal, private time to helping out
here and is not required to do so from Microsoft, he should be thanked for
doing so, not flamed. It goes to whether an employee is trying to go the extra
mile for a company or product he believes in. But if he's not required to be
here, then perhaps our complaints are better directed at Microsoft itself,
demanding that they be here if they want the people in this newsgroup to
purchase their products. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out here, its
unknown exactly what small % of their market we make up. We're obviously very
vocal, but are we enough numerically to justify required free support here? I
doubt it.
I'm also amused by those who think MS will suffer for not being here. Again, I
doubt it. Maybe if MS was a small, one or two -product company, but being the
behemoth that it is...well..I don't think so. I think ultimately we the
customers lose out. Microsoft won't go belly-up if Bill cancels the CART
project, but we won't be getting a great CART sim anytime soon because of the
effort and licensing requirements it takes to build one. Papyrus has gone the
way of the stock car (and you can't blame them monetarily), and Microprose
looks like they aren't going to be following up on GP2, so what have we got?
I've been accused of sucking up to Microsoft for defending Dean, and a few
other posts have attacked my motives, but let me clear up the mystery. I'm a
CART fanatic. I go to Laguna Seca every year. I'm a big Michael Andretti fan.
I want the end-all, be-all CART sim. Microsoft has the resources to do
it....but my feeling is that I'd rather work WITH them to get what I want than
flame them into oblivion and have them blow off my complaints and suggestions.
Because ultimately what I'm interested in is what *I* want, which is a great
CART sim. Anyone reading anything else into my motives is sadly off-base. If I
thought I could flame Microsoft into giving me the features and fixes I want,
I'd probably do it :). I just don't think its the most effective way to
persuade them to make things right, as they certainly need to be based upon the
problems with CPR 1.0.
One final note (and I hope anyone replying to this has read the whole of this
post before hitting reply and flaming away): I think Dean did cross the line
with Alison by implying that she didn't have the problem she had, and I also
think Alison raised valid points in her review, and I really liked her diagrams
of the steering null zone. I shared some of her frustrations with this title.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
don't like what's being said here about my product; I'm leaving" doesn't seem
very mature or professional. >>
Yeah, but that's not what he said. Your paraphrasing leaves something to be
desired.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
Point taken!
My computer is a Micron P-133, non-MMX, with a "Vibra 16"
sound card, an added modem and UMAX scanner SCSI card,
added memory, new Viper 330 video card, a year old T2 (with
converter), a second hard drive, an external Zip drive, and a
cheap 17 inch monitor....
*MY OPINION* is that the CPR demo runs great on my machine!
(20 fps sans eye-candy, except for tire marks, drawn hills (hate
to see the Armco floating in mid air!), and the***pit... I can turn
on the sky and only lose about 1 fps, but it's kind of distracting
anyway, so I keep it off...)
:-) :-)
Maybe my setup is the only one MS tested CPR on...
:-) :-)
- Mike.
PS - I know tensions have been high here lately, so just for
good measure: :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
====================================================
Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN
I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"...
====================================================
>can you find one other post that says their OS
was corrupted.>>
Yup.
>I think it [Dean's leaving] is the result of unbearable embarrassment.<<
Dead on.
Bart
> but can you find one other post that says their OS was corrupted."
rrevved: So it didn't happen?
If anyone cares anymore, a gentleman who was on the CPR development team
-- or at least a beta tester (isn't everybody?) -- reported in a message
to this newsgroup that he experienced the very same problems as Alison,
INCLUDING the "OS corruption" crash, brought his concerns to the
attention of the CART team leaders, and was basically brushed aside with
words to the effect that "we can't worry about that now, we gotta get
this product out the door..."
If you'd like, I can resurrect the message in its entirety from
DejaNews.
Bart Brown
>>She never gave him a chance... he posted his thoughts (very
promptly, I might add) and then people just blasted the guy
with insults and *** theories and whatnot for any
technical problem they've ever had...<<
Basically, he said she didn't know what she was doing, and that
obviously her configuration was completely wrong -- that's not just
presumptuous, it's abusive...it's also the classic software mfrs. first
line of offensive defense.
Then he offerred to help her out by sending her a 3dxf board -- I have
to imagine he started rethinking THAT particular gem of marketing about
point-oh-six-eight seconds after hitting the "send" key.
Bart Brown
>Maybe you can create some AI for yourselves as well.>>
David -- That's the BEST shot I've seen yet! Good one!
Bart
>Does anyone ever remember Dean being rude in a posting? <<
Yes. The one "rebutting" Alison's review of CPR, and, of course, his
parting song...
I'm sure I could find more if you're interested...
Bart
Of course not! But if the standard response becomes "I don't see that
here" or "we've not had this complaint before" and eventually "I don't
believe you" (my words, not Dean's, but that's how they read) then what's
the point? Where's the help?
So can I. I don't object to anyone promoting their product in a positive
fashion. I do NOT like it when the product is being promoted by being
negative towards anyone who doesn't agree with the vendor. That is what I
object to and is how Dean has been coming across over the last couple of
weeks. I'm don't see why we should have to put up with that sort of
behaviour just because the person in question is an employee of a sim
producer.
I agree that it is a shame that the vocal anti-MS brigade exist, but
that's life :( I guess it is only natural that Dean could get a little
tetchy in response to the utter rubbish that some post. But he knew that
would be the situation when he put his head above the fence & *asked* for
"warts and all" comments.
The CPR team were wonderfully positive when they appeared on RAS and it
was great to see. If that level of support had continued I would miss
their contribution. But standard "it's your fault" responses and flaming
honest criticism are not welcome from anyone :(
Cheers,
Richard
GMAB, and quit bending the truth. Dean wasn't "driven off" any
newsgroup. He coldn't stand the heat in the kitchen, and retired.
Simple as that.
Joe
>> I do. The occasional flame
>"Occasional"?? have you been reading this group for the past month?
Yup. 95% of the CPR complaints have been justified, qualified,
constructive criticism. That's as good a signal-to-noise ratio as any
group on the net.
That's called usenet, dude. A pro should know that.
Joe
Quoted text (8 lines)
>Yeah, but that's not what he said. Your paraphrasing leaves something to be > desired. > Randy > Randy Magruder > Staff Writer > Digital Sportspage > http://www.digitalsports.com/>But, just remember that *not everyone is having that problem*...
>I know it's not a problem on my machine and the demo... Should
>anyone have it? Absolutely not. But, again, MS for all its people
>and all its money, can't possibly test the program on every possible
>computer configuration...
>They're working on it - that's all you can ask for at this point...
I'd be willing to bet that everyone who has the "Win95 jitters" in
their calibration has this problem. In other words, it's probably a
result of a years-old unfixed bug in DirectX. MS should have known
better - either get DirectX fixed (I can dream can't I?) or implement
a workaround for this well known problem.
Joe
> But of course, for having the nerve to point this out, I bet you'll
> turn the hose on me.
> Randy
My motto has always been: never hose a hoser...
Bart
Uh..thanks, my english teacher was real bad : )
--
Jason L'Hirondelle
Remove x to reply.
said:
> >Jason,
> >First... its highly subjective determining if you were "ripped off"
> <snip>
> >I do not have the game.
> <snip>
> uh huh...
> --
> * rrevved at mindspring dot com - {unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m.}
> * http://www.sputum.com - http://www.subgenius.com
Richard,
A question that might be asked is SHOULD Dean have to put up with all
the personal attacks at him just because he IS employed by a sim
producer ??
I read MANY more negative posts about Dean being a liar and not knowing
what he is talking about than anything negative he ever said toward
anyone else. Just because he says they "dont see that here" is not
necessarily suggesting he means its not happening. Hes just saying its
not a prominent problem that they have encountered.
Example: Allisons computer registry crashed and she could not restart
her computer after loading CPR. Does that mean automatically that every,
or even a significant percentage of, computers that get CPR loaded onto
it is going to react the same way ???? I highly doubt it. If it were
true.. MANY more people here would be head hunting about that issue in
addition to the framerate.
Goes both ways my friend. =)
Scott B. Husted
http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted
> I do NOT like it when the product is being promoted by being
> negative towards anyone who doesn't agree with the vendor. That is what I
> object to and is how Dean has been coming across over the last couple of
> weeks. I'm don't see why we should have to put up with that sort of
> behaviour just because the person in question is an employee of a sim
> producer.
And the total IQ of r.a.s drops another notch.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
Quoted text (11 lines)
> > Heheheh Bart you're making me laugh too much.. heh.. hasn't been this > > kind of stupid ***in here for awhile.. someone had to start it.. Have > > to admit it's been getting kinda boring with the same old posts.. > > -- > > Dave Otterness > I'd rather make you think than make you laugh, but it seems you don't > have the necessary configuration for *that* particular sim... > Bart> Take a look at Alison's website and you'll see just how much of a
> "stupid girl" she is. If you ever line up alongside her in either a
> sim or a real car, I've got 10 bucks on Alison....
> John
All I have to say to that John is BRING IT ON... I'm serious.. If she
wants to come here and race me I'm up for it.. Or if you can get her on
TEN I'll be MORE than happy to race her.. I bet the TEN way has the
better odds of happening..
--
Dave Otterness
> Have you *read* any of Alison's posts? She did *NOT* say that statement
> that you & Dean seem to have attributed to her.
Wow never thought I'd get this much reaction.. You and about 10 other
people brought it to my attention that she didn't say it, but rrevved..
Sorry Alison.. It's just the way Dean quoted it and the # of references
it had made it look like it was from Alison's original post.
--
Dave Otterness
> As it was, her detailed analysis of her problem and request for an answer
> apparently was more than Dean was prepared for.
Man you people are giving up on the "patched" version before it even
gets here.. Give them a chance.. sheesh..
--
Dave Otterness
LOL! Good one, Bart.
Joe
>>My motto has always been: never hose a hoser...
>And the total IQ of r.a.s drops another notch.
You are really humor-challenged, aren't you? The guy dropped you with
a good one-liner that you walked straight into. So that apparently
means everyone *else* here is stupid. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigght...
Joe
On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:44 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)"
>"Excellent" Default Setups. In their early advertising, Microsoft made much
>of how "unlike other sims, CPR comes with excellent setups." - can you show
>me where you saw this? We have _never_ claimed the defaults were good -
>average at best. See any of my earlier FAQ postings on this.
Found it! In a FAQ available at Terminal Reality:
http://www.terminalreality.com/pub/cartfaq.txt
We find this:
"A garage with 50 settings? I don't want to play this complicated game!"
"Yes, the garage in CART has over 50 realistic settings. Unlike other
racing simulations, CART will ship with a good default setup for each
race track. If you wish to customize your car for your own particular
driving style, you can use the "Garage Wizard" to make this process
easy, or tweak the settings yourself."
Okay, so it said "good default setup", not "excellent default setup".
But the wording "unlike other racing simulations" imply the CPR default
setups will be noticeably better than the default setups in, say, ICR2.
So far, that's not my experience.
Alison
Actually, I did write to both Dean and Eric privately. I waited for
several business days, and neither of them responded, so I went public
with my review. That's when Dean reacted.
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
Quoted text (8 lines)
>I disagree. If she'd resolved the problems with Dean privately, she >might have actually provided solutions (if any were found) to those >people who experienced her problems. She still could have mentioned >the problems and knocked points off of the game because of them, but >she definitely could have helped anyone who had a similar problem >understand and fix it. Simply airing a complaint doesn't do anything >for those who might have a similar problem. Knowing I'm not alone >doesn't make the game any better.Quoted text (11 lines)
>> Thanks a WHOLE lot alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice >> a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and >> leave.. THANKS A LOT >> -- >> Dave Otterness > Oh yeah, this is all Alison's fault. Gee I hate you Alison :) It's >got nothing to do with pathetic AI. Gee I hate girls. >Hehehehehehehehehe!>Take a look at Alison's website and you'll see just how much of a
>"stupid girl" she is. If you ever line up alongside her in either a
>sim or a real car, I've got 10 bucks on Alison....
LOL! Thanks, John, for the vote of confidence!
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
so I can't return
it to EB for an exchange! >>
I bet if you called Microsoft you could probably get a refund or exchange for
another product. If you couldn't I'm sure a lot of people here would love to
know about it.
Just tell 'em you kept it because of the patch promise but your patience has
run out....see what happens.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
one-liner that you walked straight into. So that apparently means everyone
*else* here is stupid. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigght... >>
You think his comment was humorous? Wow, I thought I'd seen everything. His
little "good one-liner" is something I would expect to hear in a schoolyard,
and there's nothing humorous about it. Its just juvenile.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
Here's a hint for the humor-challenged. Things are generally funnier if
there's an element of truth in them.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
Oooooooo! Wow! What a great way to settle a difference of opinion!
Does this mean that if we race and you beat me, that proves that I'm
full of baloney and CPR is a great game? Hmmmm?
I'm very interested in online racing, but I'm not interested in a grudge
match, David. And I don't do stock cars, I'm afraid.
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
>Yes, this game was DEFINITELY released well before it was done.
Yes! That was the main point I tried to make in my review.
Hopefully! I really am looking forward to the patch. As I said in my
review, I think CPR has great potential, and it looks like the patch
will address some of the most serious issues.
BTW, I need to say that Dean was right in one respect. I should have
read the newsgroup more thoroughly before going public with my review.
I'd started letting the newsgroup slide when I got ahold of SODA before
Thanksgiving. SODA was just so compelling, I couldn't tear myself away
long enough to read the newsgroup, especially with all the family around
during the holiday. Then when I got CPR just after Thanksgiving, I was
so eager to try it, too, that I just never got back to the newsgroup.
Anyway, while Dean was reading my review the other night and framing his
reply, I was catching up on the newsgroup. I didn't find fixes for my
various issues, but there was a lot of good information, and I found
that many people were experiencing many of the same problems I'd had.
Also, as Dean pointed out, if I'd read the newsgroup, I could have
mentioned the patch in my review, which would have lessened the sting of
my comments.
And, had I spent some time perusing the Apex web site, I'd have found a
bunch of setups that would have addressed at least one of my other
complaints, that of having lousy setups supplied with the sim. Of
course, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be good setups in the sim,
especially since TRI's FAQ says that CPR will include good setups,
unlike other sims.
Thanks, Randy! I agree. I'm really hoping the dead zone adjustment in
the patch will fix this problem.
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
This is a very good point. It's obvious from the posts here that a lot
of people do not have this problem, because they love CPR - and I think
anyone who is experiencing the kind of steering response I've got would
have a hard time loving it!
I have been trying to understand why I have the problem on both of my
machines, while a lot of other people don't have it at all, but I don't
have an explanation yet.
My computers are both fairly standard, too. One is an ASUS TX
motherboard with an Intel P-166, 32 mb SDRAM, Soundblaster 16, Screamin'
3D card, Thrustmaster ACM game card, a Thrustmaster T2, and Win95b. The
other is an Intel motherboard with P-133, 32 mb FPM RAM, ESS 1688 sound
card, Intergraph Intense 3D card, Adaptec 2940 SCSI, Thrustmaster ACM
card, Thrustmaster GP1 with CH Pro pedals, and Win95a. Both have 16-bit
network cards, both have DirectX 5. Nothing radically bizarre here.
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:08:26 -0500, Barton Spencer Brown
>Then he offerred to help her out by sending her a 3dxf board -- I have
>to imagine he started rethinking THAT particular gem of marketing about
>point-oh-six-eight seconds after hitting the "send" key.
Woah! Did he actually offer to send me a 3Dfx board?? Damn! I didn't
get that post! I'm going to have to have a talk with my ISP about their
rotten, unreliable news server!
Alison
Quoted text (11 lines)
>> Alison-- >> You did a hell of a job in your review oF CPR...I hope Mr. Lester's >> crybaby response doesn't deter you from telling it like it is in future. >> Keep up the great work! >> Bart Brown > I second that. Maybe all women aren't the silly sausages I thought >they were! Hehehehehehehehehe!>Actually, I did write to both Dean and Eric privately. I waited for
>several business days, and neither of them responded, so I went public
>with my review. That's when Dean reacted.
Alison, thanks for clearing that up. That's what I wanted to know.
If you waited several days, then you were more than patient about it.
I would have done the same thing. Ultimately, its not your
responsibility to clean up their mess. If you make a shot in good
faith and then feel compelled to write the truth about what happened,
more power to you.
Randy
>Woah! Did he actually offer to send me a 3Dfx board?? Damn! I didn't
>get that post! I'm going to have to have a talk with my ISP about their
>rotten, unreliable news server!
I actually sent Dean e-mail offering to send you the one they loaned
me for the review. Didn't get an answer though :). Its sitting on
the shelf here waiting for return info. If you can get him to answer
either of our e-mails and he agrees, I'll be happy to send you 3DFX
board they sent me so you can try it yourself on a better behaved
board (at least as far as CPR is concerned).
Randy
My guess is Microsoft didn't have a clue that the people at TRI wrote
that :).
Randy
Quoted text (28 lines)
>On Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:55:44 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)" >>"Excellent" Default Setups. In their early advertising, Microsoft made much >>of how "unlike other sims, CPR comes with excellent setups." - can you show >>me where you saw this? We have _never_ claimed the defaults were good - >>average at best. See any of my earlier FAQ postings on this. >Found it! In a FAQ available at Terminal Reality: > [link lost in import] >We find this: >"A garage with 50 settings? I don't want to play this complicated game!" >"Yes, the garage in CART has over 50 realistic settings. Unlike other >racing simulations, CART will ship with a good default setup for each >race track. If you wish to customize your car for your own particular >driving style, you can use the "Garage Wizard" to make this process >easy, or tweak the settings yourself." >Okay, so it said "good default setup", not "excellent default setup". >But the wording "unlike other racing simulations" imply the CPR default >setups will be noticeably better than the default setups in, say, ICR2. >So far, that's not my experience. >AlisonLets keep in touch, Alison. I want to see what happens when the patch
comes out.
Quoted text (50 lines)
>>Yes, this game was DEFINITELY released well before it was done. >Yes! That was the main point I tried to make in my review. >>Thank God for the upcoming patch...Hopefully 6 months from now we'll all >>be playing the best sim there is. >Hopefully! I really am looking forward to the patch. As I said in my >review, I think CPR has great potential, and it looks like the patch >will address some of the most serious issues. >BTW, I need to say that Dean was right in one respect. I should have >read the newsgroup more thoroughly before going public with my review. >I'd started letting the newsgroup slide when I got ahold of SODA before >Thanksgiving. SODA was just so compelling, I couldn't tear myself away >long enough to read the newsgroup, especially with all the family around >during the holiday. Then when I got CPR just after Thanksgiving, I was >so eager to try it, too, that I just never got back to the newsgroup. >Anyway, while Dean was reading my review the other night and framing his >reply, I was catching up on the newsgroup. I didn't find fixes for my >various issues, but there was a lot of good information, and I found >that many people were experiencing many of the same problems I'd had. >Also, as Dean pointed out, if I'd read the newsgroup, I could have >mentioned the patch in my review, which would have lessened the sting of >my comments. >And, had I spent some time perusing the Apex web site, I'd have found a >bunch of setups that would have addressed at least one of my other >complaints, that of having lousy setups supplied with the sim. Of >course, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be good setups in the sim, >especially since TRI's FAQ says that CPR will include good setups, >unlike other sims. >>Btw, I want to add that I think Alison's remarks about the steering >>were dead on and I applaud the effort she put into critiquing the >>center drift problem. I hope the null-zone fix in the patch fixes >>that. Straight-wandering is one of the worst problems in this game. >Thanks, Randy! I agree. I'm really hoping the dead zone adjustment in >the patch will fix this problem. >Eagle Woman >Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. >http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alisonOn Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:39:50 -0500, Barton Spencer Brown
>Alison--
>You did a hell of a job in your review oF CPR...I hope Mr. Lester's
>crybaby response doesn't deter you from telling it like it is in future.
>Keep up the great work!
Thanks, Bart! I never imagined that my lil' ol' review would have
generated such controversy here. I really appreciate your
encouragement.
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:03:36 -0500, "Scott B. Husted"
>You would understand the above if you werent such a stupid girl ;)
>(Just for clarification so i dont get flamed to hell for that comment...
>it was an attempt at humor!!!).
ROTFL!! Thanks, Scott! I got the joke, and really appreciate it. We
could use a little lightening up in this thread!
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:02:18 -0500, Barton Spencer Brown
I'd like that, Bart!
Alison
Quoted text (14 lines)
>> but can you find one other post that says their OS was corrupted." >rrevved: So it didn't happen? >If anyone cares anymore, a gentleman who was on the CPR development team >-- or at least a beta tester (isn't everybody?) -- reported in a message >to this newsgroup that he experienced the very same problems as Alison, >INCLUDING the "OS corruption" crash, brought his concerns to the >attention of the CART team leaders, and was basically brushed aside with >words to the effect that "we can't worry about that now, we gotta get >this product out the door..." >If you'd like, I can resurrect the message in its entirety from >DejaNews.Quoted text (22 lines)
>> If anyone cares anymore, a gentleman who was on the CPR development team >> -- or at least a beta tester (isn't everybody?) -- reported in a message >> to this newsgroup that he experienced the very same problems as Alison, >> INCLUDING the "OS corruption" crash, brought his concerns to the >> attention of the CART team leaders, and was basically brushed aside with >> words to the effect that "we can't worry about that now, we gotta get >> this product out the door..." >IME, Win95 is likely to decide to not restart for any number of >reasons, most of which I've been unable to determine. Sometimes it's >installing new software, or not shutting down cleanly, a failing disk, >and sometimes it's apprently just because I was eating a chocolate >pudding and watching Seinfeld in the same room as the computer. >Is it possible the CPR contributes to OS corruption? Sure. Is it >likely that it's an endemic problem? No. Is it likely that if Alison >re-installed on that same machine that she'd see it again? I don't >think so. >What's an acceptable failure rate for OS corruption after a CPR >install? One in 1000? How does your answer change if 1 in 1000 times >Win95 fails to reboot without a CPR CD in the same zip code?<<the truth doesn't jive with your hunches>>
That's "jibe" (jibe2 intr.v. jibed, jibing, jibes. Informal. To be in
accord; agree.), not "jive".
<<And the total IQ of r.a.s drops another notch.>>
Must be well into the negative numbers by now...
BB
<<Now you painted the picture in my head that you were probably one of
the "weirdos" in school..>.
At least there was plenty of free space to paint on...I got the idea
from your "fat little eleven-year-old" remark that you were the guy in
school who beat up MUCH smaller kids for their lunch money.
So *you* were right, I *was* one of the weirdos in school -- was I
right? Are you still beating up little kids for their lunch money?
When will you be going on to high school, by the way? Kids are a hell of
a lot bigger there -- watch your six...
Bart
Well, Alison, I thought your diagrams of the steering response curve
were on the money. Just going straight is tough. I know that not
everyone is experiencing it, but no doubt enough of us to warrant the
null slider 'fix' in the patch. I hope it takes care of it.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com
Quoted text (41 lines)
>>>> But, just remember that *not everyone is having that problem*... I know it's >>not a problem on my machine and the demo... >This is a very good point. It's obvious from the posts here that a lot >of people do not have this problem, because they love CPR - and I think >anyone who is experiencing the kind of steering response I've got would >have a hard time loving it! >I have been trying to understand why I have the problem on both of my >machines, while a lot of other people don't have it at all, but I don't >have an explanation yet. >>Should anyone have it? Absolutely >>not. But, again, MS for all its people >>and all its money, can't possibly test the program on every possible computer >>configuration...>>> >>My computer configuration is a stock-delivered Dell XPS D300 with a >>SoundBlaster AWE 64 and a Thrustmaster NASCAR Pro Wheel hooked into its >>gameport. How much more standard can I get?! >>Randy Magruder >>Staff Writer >>Digital Sportspage >>http://www.digitalsports.com/ >My computers are both fairly standard, too. One is an ASUS TX >motherboard with an Intel P-166, 32 mb SDRAM, Soundblaster 16, Screamin' >3D card, Thrustmaster ACM game card, a Thrustmaster T2, and Win95b. The >other is an Intel motherboard with P-133, 32 mb FPM RAM, ESS 1688 sound >card, Intergraph Intense 3D card, Adaptec 2940 SCSI, Thrustmaster ACM >card, Thrustmaster GP1 with CH Pro pedals, and Win95a. Both have 16-bit >network cards, both have DirectX 5. Nothing radically bizarre here. >Eagle Woman >Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me. >http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison>You think his comment was humorous? Wow, I thought I'd seen everything. His
>little "good one-liner" is something I would expect to hear in a schoolyard,
>and there's nothing humorous about it. Its just juvenile.
Amazing, Never seen someone get so angry at having wallked into a
one-liner. Absolutely no measerable sense of humor at all.
Joe
snip
> Too many people seem to know what it's like to be a software
> developer, and yet I don't have any way of knowing whether they're
> year olds are as experienced as they claim in releasing a major
> software package. ; )
That's irrelevant! You don't have to be a software developer to
be able to critique a racing sim that has so many glaring problems...
l8er
ronny
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!
Quoted text (11 lines)
> >> Oh, you want to make sure that people only read YOUR objective reviews on > your web site? > Nothing more pathetic than when people on Usenet try to act like they know what > someone else's motivations are. I welcome all reviews. I don't get paid for > the reviews I write. I have no problem with reviews written by other people. > Quite often I hook up with these people on the phone and we have great > conversations about sims and sometimes we end up modem-racing. In fact, I > think Alison's review of the steering null-spot was dead-on and badly needed to > be written. All I can say about your little cheapshot about my motivations is: > Grow up.What did Alison do? She gave a review, thats all . I personally think it was
a "Proper review" Unlike all those so called reviews that Dean continually
posted URLs to when he first came here. You know the ones that sounded
like they came direct from mister Microsoft himself.
>> "The worm has turned at Microsoft. They don't respond to cries for help and
Quoted text (10 lines)
>> criticism, anymore." >> OK guys - I think that's about it for me on ras. My patience has run out. >Thanks a WHOLE lot alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice >a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and >leave.. THANKS A LOT >-- >Dave Otterness>Man you people are giving up on the "patched" version before it even
>gets here.. Give them a chance.. sheesh..
>--
>Dave Otterness
I am yet to see a patch that made a whole lot of difference, little changes
a few bug fixes but thats about it. This will have to be one miracle patch
to dig CPR out of this hole.
Todd.
> Jason,
snip
> I do not have the game. I do not degrade it. I do not praise it.
Oh, I see...
snip
Hmm, so I insult all the people who like the game if I post that I don't
like it? Let's just shut down the ng then for complete loss of
traffic...
l8er
ronny
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:04:08 -0600, David Otterness
>All I have to say to that John is BRING IT ON... I'm serious.. If she
>wants to come here and race me I'm up for it..
Share a racetrack with someone who's respect for their fellow racers
is to call them "freaking dork" and "stupid"? The word "sportsman" has
a much deeper meaning than simply a person who indulges in a sport.
Cheers!
John
No problem Alison, you can rely on me. All these people saying that
you didn't have the brains of an idiot, but of course I told them you
did... ;-)
Cheers!
John
Not so. How about ymenard being God of simracing and creator of
r.a.s.? Not the merest sliver of truth in that, but it's surely damn
funny! :)
Cheers!
John
>Thanks for a well-reasoned post. And I expected nothing but flames this
>morning! :)
Hey, don't think for a moment you're the only one capable of being
polite and thoughtful. :)
[snip. paraphrase: software is more complicated and error-prone than
most other merchandise, so you're more likely to get flamed than in
other businesses.]
Understood - one will get flamed more for software than for anything
else, especially in Usenet. The basic principle of the manufacturer -
customer relationship should be the same, though.
Really? I never noticed. :) Seriously, I don't blame Sierra, or
Microprose, or Microsoft for not giving free tech support in this
group. Manpower is expensive, and if "free" support means I have to
pay double the price for a given program, I gladly go for the less
expensive option and see what the knowledgeable people in this
newsgroup can tell me.
It never occurred to me that Dean could be volunteering his spare time
to us - posting all the messages he sent seemed like a full time job
to me. (Heck - just *reading* all this stuff cuts severely into my
time. :) But let's for a moment assume he did: nonetheless, he
appeared in this group as "Dean (Cart Team) Lester", i.e. as the
official representative of Microsoft's games division. If you
represent some entity other than yourself, you have to be very careful
in what you're saying. The other gentlemen employed by Microsoft who
sometimes post to this group (ERICST and John Browne) using their work
accounts already have to phrase their words carefully. Since they
*are* employees of MS, somebody might take their words as official
communiquees, even though they are posting as private people in their
spare time. Now, even if it be the case that Dean was doing this also,
he gave the impression of being the official spokesperson of MS in
this group; which, in turn, necessitates being extra careful when
handling customers. My point is, I guess, that you have to be
superhumanly calm and considerate if you are speaking for MS (if not
"as MS"), since you represent the entire company in front of
customers. If you're speaking as yourself, you should make this clear
in a disclaimer in your .sig.
I doubt it also. In fact, I was puzzled that Dean took the time to
explain a gazillion times "Press "[" to move clipping distance out"
(or whatever it was). In his place, I would have provided an FAQ and
posted this once a week, or whenever a new problem had come up and was
solved. There's only a small benefit for MS or the Cart team in this
type of tech support. Explain something trivial like this once, and
let the helpful people of RAS repeat it if necessary. A huge benefit,
however, can be gained for the company if the simracers find a bug
that's slipped by QC. Those threads are worthy of the attention and
contribution of a developer.
Do you think the Cart sim is going to be canceled due to this
"incident"? I doubt it. But if MS (i.e. the Cart PR team) stopped
*reading* this group as well as contributing, I think they will
suffer, however. As a sim developer, you can gain a lot of valuable
information by just reading this newsgroup. (You can gain even more if
you're able to reply and ask for clarification if necessary.)
Ultimately, you can make a better sim that sells better in the long
run and produces more revenue - something you are interested in as a
professional. I agree that it wouldn't be a huge problem for MS if the
cart project was stopped. It would be even less of a problem if just
the denizens of RAS collectively decided to boycott the sim (which we
won't do). But a better sim with RAS input will be selling better in
the long run - that I'm sure of. I'm pretty sure that the Papy guys
(and gals? don't know) are monitorng the group exactly for that
reason.
Ubi's F1RS. (Not a cart sim, but an open-wheeler) I'm looking forward
to your review on that one. (BTW, this belongs to another thread, but
the D3D version of F1RS has some serious graphical flaws - like empty
rearview mirrors - you don't experience with the voodoo version. One
good reason to buy a 3dfx card, at least for me.) And Grand Prix
Legends (which should be known as GPL drool, as far as I'm concerned.
:)
I absolutely agree with you on this one. Nonetheless, one should be
able to ignore the flames and always be very polite if one represents
a company. I'm not for flaming, but there always will be rude people.
Ignoring them is often a good choice - not every accusation and
ad-hominem attack *deserves* an answer.
I haven't read Alison's review, so I can't comment on the issues she
raises. But I read her posting and Dean's reply - maybe he didn't mean
it like that (sometimes our words in Usenet do not convey what we want
them to, especially in tone), but it came over very condescendingly
and patronizing. Not a good move, and an immediate explicit excuse
would have been in order, even if the perceived insult was
involuntary.
--
Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.
wopr"at"stud.uni-sb.de \ There is no "2" in my real e-mail address.
Uni des Saarlands \ Sorry for the inconvenience. You know why.
>Do I have solid proof that it was CART PR that caused the OS
>corruption?
>No. I loaded the game, ran it, exited normally, and powered off.
>Next time I powered up, it wouldn't boot into Win95. I restored the
And you did nothing else to the system? No defragging? You strictly
turned the power on, installed the game, ran it, shut the power off, then
couldn't reboot? You did exit win95 from the START button right?
Since you apparently have an easy way to recover, why not try
installing CPR again?
And to be fair, the install program of N2 would corrupt your IE3.0,
if everyone remembers. All you needed was for the AutoPlay
to bring the first menu screen up. Then BOOM no Internet Explorer.
So it is *VERY* possible for an application to mess with your OS.
Then difference there is that EVERYONE had a broken IE3.0.
In Alison's case she is apparently alone, pointing the blame away
from CPR.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
>Lets keep in touch, Alison. I want to see what happens when the patch
>comes out.
This is so touching...
your review on that one. >>
So am I. But I need some more seat time and a final-final version. Ubi Soft
has yet to state that any version, even the one with the online patch, is final
boxed product. When they do, they come up for review, and not before.
serious graphical flaws - like empty
rearview mirrors - you don't experience with the voodoo version. One good
reason to buy a 3dfx card, at least for me.) >>
The rear views work in my version, up until the game freezes up that is. I
consider this not to be a reason to buy a 3DFX card, but a reason for Ubi Soft
to fix their bugs! I'm not going to buy a 3DFX card just because one game or
another has bugs in the Direct3D version that don't exist in the Glide version.
For all I know the tables could be turned on the next piece of software I look
at it and its the Glide version that's got problems. Anyway, the performance
drop in Direct3D from my Riva 128 AGP was way too much for me to use a 3DFX,
unless I decide to get a Monster and tack it onto the ole expansion port.
concerned. :) >>
Hope it lives up to its promises in 1.0 :)
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
Well, there's a lot of variation here.
First of all, the game will optionally install DirectX and/or ActiveMovie? The
former of course has a high risk factor of screwing up a system, since its
something that loads upon bootup (else why would they make you restart).
Also, there are different size installations. Depending upon where Alison
installed it, there's also the possibility she created a low space condition,
possibly on her swap drive. I don't know.
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
Isn't it though? :)
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:49:18 -0800, "Scott B. Husted"
Hi Scott,
No one should be forced to take personal abuse. Please don't think for a
second that I in any way condone personal attacks.
That said, just how many were there? Maybe there were loads and I just
skipped them (I can't be bothered reading such trash and the authors of
such posts were possibly already in my killfile), but to me most of them
seemed to be aimed at *Microsoft*, not Dean personally.
In that case the standard response should be "please can you provide more
information as we would like to get to the bottom of this. Please send me
an email with your config.sys / autoexec.bat / registry settings etc".
Denying a problem does not help it get fixed.
Obviously it is a rare occurrence. But look at Dean's response to it:
How is that helping Alison or anyone else? Maybe it was just an
incredibly unfortunate choice of words, but it does seem to imply that
she was lying about her problem. It's *that* sort of response that soured
my impression of Dean :(
Indeed it does - applies to everyone in the group and with no exceptions
just because someone may work for a sim producer.
Cheers,
Richard
Thanks for being man enough to acknowledge the mistake.
Cheers,
Richard
Richard,
On this newsgroup you must have a killfile list the size of Texas ;)
I agree with you on many points. I would agree that Dean's choice of
words were probably not the best. I imagine he meant a "REAL problem
that effects a majority of users". However, I cannot speak for him and
I do NOT know if those were his intentions. In any regards... I agree
that the choice of words was poor and could be taken the wrong way. It
could have been approached in a more constructive manner to say the
least.
As far as attacking Dean personally.... A MAJORITY of attacks were based
at MS. MS Sucks, CPR SUCKs, its worthless, should have been complete
before releasing.. MS sucks, etc. Worthless posts... but none the less
directed at MS more than Dean. HOWEVER, there were many posts that
seemed awfully critical of Dean as an individual (or at least I would
have taken them that way). Im not gonna hunt them down to prove who
said what to the exact word... but I would say there were a half dozen
to a dozen of posts. There were some critical posts that were
constructive and legitimate. Im not trying to "protect" or kiss MS ass
or anything =)
I dont promote or degrade the game. It obviously needs work. Can it be
a great sim?? Time will tell =)
Scott B. Husted
http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted
Quoted text (50 lines)
> On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:49:18 -0800, "Scott B. Husted" > Hi Scott, > >A question that might be asked is SHOULD Dean have to put up with all > >the personal attacks at him just because he IS employed by a sim > >producer ?? > No one should be forced to take personal abuse. Please don't think for a > second that I in any way condone personal attacks. > That said, just how many were there? Maybe there were loads and I just > skipped them (I can't be bothered reading such trash and the authors of > such posts were possibly already in my killfile), but to me most of them > seemed to be aimed at *Microsoft*, not Dean personally. > > Just because he says they "dont see that here" is not > >necessarily suggesting he means its not happening. Hes just saying its > >not a prominent problem that they have encountered. > In that case the standard response should be "please can you provide more > information as we would like to get to the bottom of this. Please send me > an email with your config.sys / autoexec.bat / registry settings etc". > Denying a problem does not help it get fixed. > >Example: Allisons computer registry crashed and she could not restart > >her computer after loading CPR. Does that mean automatically that every, > >or even a significant percentage of, computers that get CPR loaded onto > >it is going to react the same way ???? I highly doubt it. If it were > >true.. MANY more people here would be head hunting about that issue in > >addition to the framerate. > Obviously it is a rare occurrence. But look at Dean's response to it: > >>"OS corruption"? - I think we'd have heard about this one by now if it was > >>for real. > How is that helping Alison or anyone else? Maybe it was just an > incredibly unfortunate choice of words, but it does seem to imply that > she was lying about her problem. It's *that* sort of response that soured > my impression of Dean :( > >Goes both ways my friend. =) > Indeed it does - applies to everyone in the group and with no exceptions > just because someone may work for a sim producer. > Cheers, > RichardThat is why I would like *HER* to answer.
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
Yep. Play your cards right and you may have a date :-)
--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.
>Not so. How about ymenard being God of simracing and creator of
>r.a.s.? Not the merest sliver of truth in that, but it's surely damn
>funny! :)
Another winner ! Here is the list presently :
The list of people who dont thake the thread seriously and laugh at it (like
me also) :
- Mike Radler
- Jonh Wallace
Oh yeah another change in my *sig file
Fran?ois Mnard,
With great respect,
May the downforce be with you,
Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)
ymenard on NROS, sponsored by
http://www.awpss.com/
SimRacing director, AWPSS
- *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -
- *Excuse me for my provocative reply's and posts <g> * -
said something kinda like:
Sheesh, are you just looking for fights? Why does every post have to
include some kind of personal attack? I wasn't attacking her review
(God forbid! Only a Microsoft zombie would even hint that it was less
than perfect!)
Yeah, I read her review. What was not clear was whether or not she
was able to get ahold of someone at MS. Usually if you let the folks
at the publishers know that you are writing a review and are on
deadline, they will get back in touch pretty quickly. She has since
posted that she did try to get in touch with them and got no response.
She did her job.
jeff
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:07:03 +0100, Ronald Stoehr
The only thing that should be expected is that people critique the
software and leave the personal flames behind.
jeff lackey
Quoted text (9 lines)
>snip >> Too many people seem to know what it's like to be a software >> developer, and yet I don't have any way of knowing whether they're >> year olds are as experienced as they claim in releasing a major >> software package. ; ) >That's irrelevant! You don't have to be a software developer to >be able to critique a racing sim that has so many glaring problems...Quoted text (12 lines)
> On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:04:08 -0600, David Otterness > >All I have to say to that John is BRING IT ON... I'm serious.. If she > >wants to come here and race me I'm up for it.. > Share a racetrack with someone who's respect for their fellow racers > is to call them "freaking dork" and "stupid"? The word "sportsman" has > a much deeper meaning than simply a person who indulges in a sport. > Cheers! > JohnHave you read the APEX website?? Dean outlined what is being fixed in
CPR which included framerate, AI, auto-pitting, steering dead zone, etc
Give it a chance... if it doesnt work then ok.
Scott B. Husted
http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted
Quoted text (11 lines)
> >Man you people are giving up on the "patched" version before it even > >gets here.. Give them a chance.. sheesh.. > >-- > >Dave Otterness > I am yet to see a patch that made a whole lot of difference, little changes > a few bug fixes but thats about it. This will have to be one miracle patch > to dig CPR out of this hole. > Todd.Ron,
Did I say you cannot state your opinion ??? I said take into
consideration that just because "you" do not like the game and think it
sucks means everyone else HAS to take "your" word for it. (Im not
referring to YOU and YOUR as you personally Ron - meant as an overall
directive to a single person).
Scott B. Husted
http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted
Quoted text (26 lines)
> > Jason, > snip > > I do not have the game. I do not degrade it. I do not praise it. > Oh, I see... > snip > > Everyone should try and remember... for everyone who hates the game, > > there is someone who loves and enjoys it. The debate over whether it is > > a sim or an arcade game is irrelevent. If someone enjoys it... that is > > all that matters. Again... it is just a sim (I didnt say game guys and > > gals!!! ;) ). > Hmm, so I insult all the people who like the game if I post that I don't > like it? Let's just shut down the ng then for complete loss of > traffic... > l8er > ronny > -- > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!My wife and small children might have something to say about that :)
Randy
Randy Magruder
Staff Writer
Digital Sportspage
http://www.digitalsports.com/
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >Btw, I want to add that I think Alison's remarks about the steering > >were dead on and I applaud the effort she put into critiquing the > >center drift problem. I hope the null-zone fix in the patch fixes > >that. Straight-wandering is one of the worst problems in this game. > Thanks, Randy! I agree. I'm really hoping the dead zone adjustment in > the patch will fix this problem.>>> Ubi's F1RS. (Not a cart sim, but an open-wheeler) I'm looking forward to
>your review on that one. >>
>So am I. But I need some more seat time and a final-final version. Ubi Soft
>has yet to state that any version, even the one with the online patch, is final
>boxed product. When they do, they come up for review, and not before.
The sim is in stores here. Maybe this is a new approach by software
makers? Don't let the *whole* world be your beta-testers, half the
world is sufficient... ;)
Well, it seems as if money doesn't come into the equation when you
consider hardware upgrades. Good for you. My next upgrades will be a
reasonably fast socket 7 processor (166 or 200 with overclocking
capability; Intel or AMD, haven't decided yet) and either an add-on 3D
card or a 2D/3D card. From what I see, Voodoo (1) cards yield stunning
results (at least if you're used to the performance of my system) up
to resolutions of 640x480 for a competitive price. I hope the prices
will drop some more after the holidays. A Voodoo card will run the now
current crop of games, and the new top titles will always be too
demanding for the hardware I own at a given point in time. I'm not
saying the 3DFX is the be-all, end-all 3D card - I just think it is a
reasonable upgrade if you have to choose between 3D cards and take
into account the current state of available games, drivers, and APIs.
It might well be that I buy the Elsa Victory Erazor (Riva 128 chipset)
anyway. It depends on the pricing relative to 3DFX and the development
of MS's "Direct something" APIs. I saved some money on my new modem by
not buying a brand I trust, but I'm paying with driver hassle for
this.
I can dream, can't I? How many games were great until you actually
installed them? And I have state-of-the-art hardware to run
"imagination-ware". :)
Oh, one thing: Randy, could you please configure your AOL newsreader
of a quoted passage. Makes it easier to figure out who you are
replying to.
--
Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.
wopr"at"stud.uni-sb.de \ There is no "2" in my real e-mail address.
Uni des Saarlands \ Sorry for the inconvenience. You know why.
...and slightly in front of that, rrevved howlin' like a banshee as
well - yeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaa! ;-)
Cheers!
John
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:35:07 -0600, David Otterness
>Sorry John, but that's America for ya..
Ah, excellent, thank you! Another entry for the "Reasons to thank the
Lord I'm Scottish" list... :)
Hm, "freaking dork" and "stupid girl" are joking around? Heaven help
us when you get serious, all those folks using IE to read the group
will have their kiddie filters going into meltdown.
Considering the relative locations that's probably for the best. :)
Cheers!
John
On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:38:02 -0800, "Scott B. Husted"
Hi Scott,
And as a result of recent posts is now somewhat bigger ;-)
We've probably all received a similar number in the past, although maybe
not concentrated into such a short spell. Mind you, I bet many of the
regular posters have made that many as well - myself included :( These
days I try and review everything I write and try and bite my toungue a
lot. But sometimes I fail to stop myself in time.
It *can* be. For a first attempt it is very good. My main problem with it
isn't the AI or graphics though, it's that the driving model breaks down
when pushed hard. I fear that the developers do not accept this opinion
though :(
Cheers,
Richard
On Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:33:37 +1100, Bruce Kennewell
>Excellently put, Richard.
Thanks Bruce, although on reflection I may have been a little harsh in
saying that Dean will not be missed. I still have hopes for CPR and I
hope that even if Dean is not contributing any more that he or someone
else from TRI/MS are following the group and take note of what we want
from sims. I *do* think that CPR can develop into a great sim.
Cheers,
Richard
> > LIGHTEN UP, I WAS JOKING AROUND..
> Hm, "freaking dork" and "stupid girl" are joking around? Heaven help
> us when you get serious, all those folks using IE to read the group
> will have their kiddie filters going into meltdown.
Wow.. if you don't think that "freaking dork" is joking around, I'd
strongly suggest leaving your home for a little while and going out to a
bar or something..
--
Dave Otterness
You're not even at that level (theasis), i doubt at Le cegep de
Limoilou
you'll be doing theasis, you've got to be accepted by any University,
before
even thinking about this.
Micheal/Eric/newbies/rookie/veterans/etc..
So you start all this at 15, on your parents account (internet), shame
on
you.
You've got a problem, you're doing projection to others, including
myself:
read this:
(from another reply)
Heck are you a liar ?? You're the biggest Ego-centric guy I ever saw,
you
fat hypocrite. Who are you for doing this ? A new-born hitler ? A
Dark
Lord
Quoted text (8 lines)
> Thanks Bruce, although on reflection I may have been a little harsh in > saying that Dean will not be missed. I still have hopes for CPR and I > hope that even if Dean is not contributing any more that he or someone > else from TRI/MS are following the group and take note of what we want > from sims. I *do* think that CPR can develop into a great sim. > Cheers, > RichardI strongly suggest you that ask a few ****s* about your
comments...Joking or not, or even if Dean or Alison were
your best friends, shows a total lack of disrespect towards
another. 'Nuff said.
Cheers!
Marc
Quoted text (8 lines)
> I strongly suggest you that ask a few ****s* about your > comments...Joking or not, or even if Dean or Alison were > your best friends, shows a total lack of disrespect towards > another. 'Nuff said. > Cheers! > MarcQuoted text (9 lines)
> > > LIGHTEN UP, I WAS JOKING AROUND.. > > Hm, "freaking dork" and "stupid girl" are joking around? Heaven help > > us when you get serious, all those folks using IE to read the group > > will have their kiddie filters going into meltdown. > Wow.. if you don't think that "freaking dork" is joking around, I'd > strongly suggest leaving your home for a little while and going out to a > bar or something..Quoted text (21 lines)
> > > > LIGHTEN UP, I WAS JOKING AROUND.. > > > Hm, "freaking dork" and "stupid girl" are joking around? Heaven help > > > us when you get serious, all those folks using IE to read the group > > > will have their kiddie filters going into meltdown. > > Wow.. if you don't think that "freaking dork" is joking around, I'd > > strongly suggest leaving your home for a little while and going out to a > > bar or something.. > If you'd call me "freaking dork" in a bar, I'd smack you in the face! > I guess, that would be a surprise for you? > Geeez > ronny > -- > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:05:01 -0600, "Greg Cisko"
Yes, yes, yes. No defragging. Installed the game, exited it normally,
shut down normally. Powered up, found the OS hosed.
I did work up the courage to do this the other day. I chose slightly
different options, and this time, instead of corruption, I got a Windows
Protection Error upon rebooting. However, after that, and a trip
through Safe Mode (where, as before, the Windows 95 Device Manager
reported no problems at all) I was able to reboot, and everything seemed
normal. I was able to run the game on this system.
You are likely right about this. Although there seem to be a few other
people who have had installation problems with CPR, apparently this is
not a common problem with this sim, but rather one afflicting Windows 95
in general. Perhaps I just got unlucky on this one. Coming as it did
on the heels of the other problems that caused such frustration with
CPR, it was the last straw, and I decided to pull the plug on further
testing at that point.
Since then, I have done further testing, and worked around two of the
three other serious problems I had. I have been able to run the sim
long enough to get a better impression of its vehicle dynamics and other
important features. Although I feel that there are many more issues
beyond the four which I had such difficulty with, there are also some
excellent features, which I spent very little time on in my review
because of my frustration. Being able to actually race on CPR has left
me with much more positive feeling about it. I have found that under
certain circumstances I actually quite enjoyed racing on CPR.
I plan to post a revised review on my site within a few days, with a
more balanced view, and positive and hopeful tone.
Alison
Quoted text (9 lines)
>>Do I have solid proof that it was CART PR that caused the OS >>corruption? >>No. I loaded the game, ran it, exited normally, and powered off. >>Next time I powered up, it wouldn't boot into Win95. I restored the >And you did nothing else to the system? No defragging? You strictly >turned the power on, installed the game, ran it, shut the power off, then >couldn't reboot? You did exit win95 from the START button right?DirectX 5 was already installed and working (for SODA).
I elected not to let CPR install MS IE 3.02, since I don't use that
machine for surfing. After posting my review, and seeing the firestorm
that broke out around this issue, I tried installing CPR on that machine
again. This time, I let it install MS IE 3.02, and then rebooted as
instructed by the CPR install program. Opon rebooting, the machine got
a Windows Protection Error but then, after another reboot and trip
through Safe Mode, it was able to boot normally and run CPR.
I have no idea why this made any difference, or even if that is what
made the difference.
No, it went onto a separate partition, that contained only two games,
SODA and CPR.
Alison
On Sat, 13 Dec 1997 13:50:17 -0600, David Otterness
>Wow.. if you don't think that "freaking dork" is joking around, I'd
>strongly suggest leaving your home for a little while and going out to a
>bar or something..
Tell you what David, next time you need to take a holiday, pop over
here to Scotland and do exactly that - go out to a bar, any bar. Then
pick a bloke at random and walk up to him and call him "freaking dork"
and his wife "stupid girl".
After you've done it, can you come back on here and tell us exactly
how many stitches you needed, and exactly how painful it was?
If you're not man enough to admit you were in the wrong and blew your
stack then I guess I can accept that, but don't make yourself look
more foolish by trying to justify it and digging yourself in further.
It's a bit pathetic.
Cheers!
John
: <<Now you painted the picture in my head that you were probably one of
: the "weirdos" in school..>.
:
: At least there was plenty of free space to paint on...I got the idea
: from your "fat little eleven-year-old" remark that you were the guy in
: school who beat up MUCH smaller kids for their lunch money.
:
Actually from reading several of his posts in this group I was under the
impression that HE was a "fat little eleven-year-old". His nonsensical,
unconnected posts seem to have that touch of someone immature attempting
to impress others with his wit and intelligence. But unfortunatly only
getting a response of "Huh? What the hell are you talking about?"
dsh
Several readers of my CPR review have pointed out that, as a result of
my frustration with the problems I had getting CPR to run on my systems,
I neglected to mention the many good features in CPR. I must admit this
is true.
Since I posted my review of CPR, I have worked around three of the four
serious problems that caused me so much frustration, and have learned
that the fourth serious problem, the nonlinear steering, is addressed in
the upcoming patch from Microsoft. I am eagerly awaiting the patch!
With the sim now working reasonably well on my systems, I have been able
to do some serious hot lapping at Long Beach, as well as some network
racing, both on my LAN and on The Zone.
I find myself enjoying the sim quite a lot at times. In fact, during a
test session in which I was further refining my Long Beach setup, when I
hit upon a setup that suited my driving style well and was able to
really start pushing the car, I actually found my heart pounding and my
palms sweating, just like in CART's adverti***ts on TV! The sensation
of speed is awesome; other sims seem rather tame by comparison.
I still have many issues with CPR, but am feeling much more positive
about it now, and hopeful that it will mature into a really excellent
racing sim. It does have some great features. I still feel Microsoft
erred in releasing CPR before it was ready, and didn't leave enough time
between the beta release date and the production release date to respond
to feedback from the beta testers in the full version. But Microsoft
have shown themselves willing to listen to criticism, and the promised
patch targets many of the most severe complaints.
My brother Nate is a mechanical engineer, an experienced racer in both
real cars and racing sims, and has written a vehicle dynamics modeling
program himself. After racing with me in CPR for a while at Mid-Ohio,
Nate put things in perspective. He said, "If we didn't have ICR2 and
GP2, we'd be *ecstatic* about this sim. If ICR2 is 80 on a scale of 0
to 100, GP2 is 60, CPR is 40, and Psygnosis F1 is -5." I totally agree.
I am planning to post revisions to my review on my web site shortly,
detailing the ways I worked around the three serious problems I had, and
discussing more of the good features of CPR. I'll start on it as soon
as I get through this stack of email from r.a.s. readers! <grin>
Thanks to the many readers in this newsgroup who responded to my review,
including those who offered constructive criticism as well as those who
responded with positive feedback. This is a great forum, with a lot of
knowledge and expertise, and I'm really grateful for it. The comments
and suggestions here - even some of the negative ones - encouraged me to
keep looking for solutions to the problems I experienced, and allowed me
to see more clearly the potential of CPR.
Eagle Woman
Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison
John, who maintains the Apex Web site for CPR enthusiasts, wrote a long
and thoughtful response to my CPR review, and the news of Dean's
leaving, last Wednesday. Unfortunately, he inadvertently mailed it to
me instead of posting it on the newsgroup. With his permission, I'm
posting it now, along with my responses.
John makes the excellent point that, in my frustration with the problems
I had getting CPR to run, I neglected to mention the many good features
in CPR. This is true, and I appreciate his detailed and articulate
comments about this.
Also, John has provided some excellent setups on his Apex web site, as
well as some very good advice about CPR and about sim racing in general.
Thanks, John, for all your thoughts, and for your commitment to making
this sim better!
Note: Since I wrote this response, I have worked around three of the
four major problems I had with CPR, and have learned that Microsoft's
upcoming patch will address the fourth major problem I had. I've also
been able to get onto The Zone and do some network racing. See my
seperate posting for more info.
On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:39:44 -0800, John wrote:
>I'm sorry to see you leave Dean. I have never seen as much support as you
>have provided on R.A.S. You presence will be missed.
I agree!
>With regards to Dean's reply to allison you have to remember that Dean does
>this in his spare time, he has a new-born baby ...
Thanks, John. It helps to know what was happening on Dean's end.
>Allison I totally agree with your ideas of the +ACI-ultimate sim+ACI- and have been
>hoping companies would follow many of the ideas you outlined.
>I would like to run down the list of your ideas and if MS CART Precision
>Racing has them.
>(1) 8 Player Multiplayer - YES CART PR has this.
Yes. I tried to get onto the Zone last night, but their signup form was
malfunctioning and wouldn't let me sign in!
Jeeeeez. I just can't get anywhere with this Microsoft crowd! <grin>
>(2) Rendition Support - YES CART PR has this in Direct 3D. No in terms of a
>dedicated Rendition port. Because 3DFX is the current 3D card leader I don't
>think you will see many companies doing dedicated rendition ports anymore.
Yes, I think you are right. I am planning to get a 3Dfx card, but
haven't decided whether to go for a Pure 3D or wait for the new Voodoo 2
based cards due in Jan-March.
>(3) 3D Support - YES CART PR has this in Direct 3D. Runs best on 3DFX which
>many people own now because of it's high performance. If I owned a rendition
>card I would be dissapointed that 3DFX runs CART PR better but I was
>disappointed when Papyrus only released a Rendition port.
Yes. I wish there were some standard, but unless a de facto standard
for 3D native APIs emerges, we will have to rely on D3D. However, if
Voodoo 2 is as good as people are saying (50-80 fps?) then maybe we can
live with the overhead of Win95/D3D.
Well said. Win95 also has the advantage of built-in networking so the
game developers can more easily incorporate multiplayer. Also it's nice
to be able to drop out of the game and swap setup and replay files (and
newly minted SODA tracks) across my LAN without having to reboot.
>(5) Comprehensive Garage Settings - YES CART PR has this.
Yes. I wish I'd been a little more specific. Like, brake balance
adjustments that actually *do* something. And tire tempurature
readings. Tire pressure readings when hot. The ability to engineer in
some lift-throttle oversteer.
>(6) Tabs for accessing the many garage settings - YES CART PR has this.
Nice menus they are, too.
>(7) Loads last setup for each track - YES CART PR has this. CART will not
>warn if you change a setup I don't think but it will save it under the
>custom name.
Yes, this is nicely implemented. Except that it doesn't sort the setup
files alphabetically, but reports them in the order in which the files
were created. This is OK at first but can get awfully messy, especially
if you bring over setup files from other computers.
>(8) Telemetry - YES CART PR has this. Since the Replay or PI Analysis file
>is a text file (Go to the APEX http://cart.gamestats.com in the editing
>section to see the file layout) you can easily create a more in depth data
>analysis tool or import the data into a spread sheet.
I saw this at APEX. I really like the fact that a lot of the files,
including the .gar files, are in text. However, apparently there are
some anamolies in the PI Analysis, like low G-force readings for lateral
G's, and erratic MPH readings when the speed was actually consistent. I
need to study this more before I comment in more depth.
>(9) New carsets - YES CART PR has this with the recently released Paint Kit
>that extracts the textures from the game.
Is the Paint Kit out already? I saw something on APEX but got the
impression we are still waiting.
This sounds awesome! I've found the track editor in SODA to be at least
as entertaining as actually racing in it, and racing in SODA is quite
good. If CPR matures and gets really driveable, then the track editor
will be a fantastic supplement.
>(11) Vehicle Performance Model Editing - NO at present. I'm working on this
>item and it may be possible to to edit some values in the near future
>through hacking. The problem is that many of the performance varaibles are
>hard coded in the program and not available via external input files.
If that's so, it will be hard to change things safely. They may have
done that to prevent cheating in online play, but it's a pain for
keeping the sim up to date or using it to do other types of cars.
>So looking at this list CART P.R. has met many of the items as that you list
>as being in your ultimate sim.
Yes.
>Now that doesn't amount to a hill of beans if
>you are unhappy with the sim.
<grin> Yes again.
>Many of the items that you listed as being
>unhappy with in your review are being addressed in the patch. There was no
>mention of the patch or the editors in your review.
You're right. When I wrote the review, I'd gotten behind on reading the
newsgroup because I was so involved with playing SODA and then CPR.
After I wrote the review, I caught up on the newsgroup and learned about
the patch. I should have caught up before I published the review.
I'm planning to update my review shortly - for sure, as soon as I have a
chance to try the patch - and I will include what I've learned. I'm
really hoping I will be able to be more positive.
>In your review you also
>listed some postings from R.A.S. from people that were also unhappy with
>CART P.R. It would have been nice if you would have posted some of the
>positive messages on R.A.S. to give a balanced view.
Well, yes. Unfortunately, I did not find very many positive messages
that were detailed and well thought out, from people like you who
obviously understand real racing and have some expertise in sims. But I
should have looked harder. And I should have looked at the APEX before
I published my review, because there is a lot of good info there as well
as setups and replays.
>I read your background and learned that you have race experience in SCCA. I
>too have raced in SCCA and set lap records at SEARS POINT and won the
>championship both years I raced.
Cool! What class did you race in?
I was at Sears Point as a crew for a SCCA endurance racing RX-7 in the
early 80's, but never got to drive there in real cars. I was delighted
to get the N1 to ICR2 conversion utility and be able to run an IndyCar
there. It is one of my favorite tracks in ICR2, along with Watkins
Glen, in which I did race real cars, both Formula Vee and a Showroom
Stock Honda CRX Si.
>I also raced 1 year of S.C.C.A. Pro racing
>in the ESCORT Endurance series (World Challenge).
Great! I think the ESCORT World Challenge descended from the Showroom
Stock Endurance series that I raced in.
>In college I got my degree
>in Mechanical Engineering and helped work on a Bob Sled Simulator for the
>U.S. Bob Sled team.
Cool! My brother wrote a vehicle dynamics sim program in college. I
really wish we still had the source code.
Got em! Actually, I found them the other night after publishing my
review. Thanks! They do help, though they don't absolve MS from
keeping their promise to include "good setups, unlike other sims", to
quote from the FAQ on your site and at TRI's site.
>The game is now very enjoyable to drive and
...
read more »
Quoted text (8 lines)
>(4) Win 95 or DOS. Yes CART PR runs on Win 95. No in DOS. In your >specifications you say Win95 is ok with no performance hit. I think >ultimately any DOS game is going to run faster than a Win95 game because the >OS overhead is not as much (These are my assumptions and not based on great >technical knowledge of OS's). To ask Win95 to not provide any performance >hit over DOS is asking allot. Hopefully the performance hit will be minimal. >It is also the current trend to develop games in Win95 and not DOS so for >the time being we don't have much choice on this item.Quoted text (7 lines)
>(10) Add new tracks/ car models - YES+ACEAIQAhACEAIQAhACEAIQAhACEAIQAhACEAIQAhACEAIQAhACE- CART PR has this in >the soon to be released track editor. This editor allows you to extract many >different files form the game and gives you the opportunity to edit more >than just the track. The tools to create a track from scratch are very >powerful+ACE- The track editor that T.R.I. will be releasing is the exact same >editor that they used to create the tracks for CART P.R. People will drool >when this tool is released+ACE-Quoted text (7 lines)
>I just like you am searching for the ultimate race car >simulator. I too have played race simulators from the original World Circuit >to INDYCAR 1,II and NASCAR I,II. I had very high expectations for CART PR >before it came out also. When I first played it I too was frustrated by the >steering and the default setups. After allot of tinkering and messing around >I was able to resolve the steering and I used many setups that were sent to >me for The APEX page.>His nonsensical, unconnected posts seem to have that touch of someone immature attempting to impress others with his wit and intelligence. But unfortunatly only getting a response of "Huh? What the hell are you talking about?"
> dsh
Ain't it the truth?
Bart
Do you think we could do a RIP post for the Dean leaving RAS post...
its getting tired.
BTW...This was not direct at you Bart. Just a general opinion on my
part.
Scott B. Husted
http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted
Quoted text (7 lines)
> >His nonsensical, unconnected posts seem to have that touch of someone immature attempting to impress others with his wit and intelligence. But unfortunatly only getting a response of "Huh? What the hell are you talking about?" > > dsh > Ain't it the truth? > BartQuoted text (7 lines)
> If you're not man enough to admit you were in the wrong and blew your > stack then I guess I can accept that, but don't make yourself look > more foolish by trying to justify it and digging yourself in further. > It's a bit pathetic. > Cheers! > JohnHis nonsensical,
<SARCASM>
Nice one Dougie, I've *NEVER* seen another post that is "unconnected",
especially not to the topic of the message.. NEVER.
</SARCASM>
--
Dave Otterness
Quoted text (12 lines)
> >Actually, I did write to both Dean and Eric privately. I waited for > >several business days, and neither of them responded, so I went public > >with my review. That's when Dean reacted. > Alison, thanks for clearing that up. That's what I wanted to know. > If you waited several days, then you were more than patient about it. > I would have done the same thing. Ultimately, its not your > responsibility to clean up their mess. If you make a shot in good > faith and then feel compelled to write the truth about what happened, > more power to you. > RandyQuoted text (19 lines)
> >I disagree. If she'd resolved the problems with Dean privately, she > >might have actually provided solutions (if any were found) to those > >people who experienced her problems. She still could have mentioned > >the problems and knocked points off of the game because of them, but > >she definitely could have helped anyone who had a similar problem > >understand and fix it. Simply airing a complaint doesn't do anything > >for those who might have a similar problem. Knowing I'm not alone > >doesn't make the game any better. > I did contact Dean (and Eric) privately several days before posting my > review. I got no response till I went public with it. > Randy, I appreciate your opinion, but I must say that *I* benefit > greatly from knowing that I'm not alone with a particular problem. > Somehow it makes it a little easier to stop pulling out my hair looking > for a solution if I know that others are having the same problem - and > not finding a solution. > Eagle Woman> No. I'm just saying if she had a technical problem she might have tried to
> resolve it with MS first and then written up her experiences (both problems &
> solutions or lack of solutions) in the review. Just to eliminate all
> possibility that its pilot-error.
Of course, I realise the responsabilities of a reviewer are greater
than someone posting here. But I remember this game being hailed as a
flagship for MMX and Direct X ie speed and compatability. Seems niether
have been accomplished so far.
Quoted text (13 lines)
> % >However, I still think the real point here is that the game > % > should never have been released in it current state. > % I'm sure everyone here will agree with you on this point, but > % realistically, you can't blame them. Like it or not (I don't!), > % Christmas is commercialized. It's all about money... > And they ain't getting mine until it's done right. Go ahead and feed > the machinery that produces sub-standard and unfinished products, just > because it's Christmas and the time of the year that people foolishly > forget the value of money. As long as we continue to shovel $$$$ into > that hungry craw, we keep seeing the same results come out the other > end. You reap what you sow.Quoted text (20 lines)
> On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:07:03 +0100, Ronald Stoehr > >snip > >> Too many people seem to know what it's like to be a software > >> developer, and yet I don't have any way of knowing whether they're > >> year olds are as experienced as they claim in releasing a major > >> software package. ; ) > >That's irrelevant! You don't have to be a software developer to > >be able to critique a racing sim that has so many glaring problems... > The only thing that should be expected is that people critique the > software and leave the personal flames behind. > jeff lackeyYou're quite right, Scott, as the subject of this thread has long since
ceased to be Dean Lester...and the *real* subject of this thread isn't
worth wasting another cc of breath on.
Bart
Quoted text (29 lines)
> >> I don't blame you for leaving for a second. > > I do. The occasional flame > "Occasional"?? have you been reading this group for the past month? > > is the nature of public forums, and they can be easily ignored by any > >mature person. They are not an excuse for > Up to a point - but day after day after day of the same complaints > can be tiring... how many times did Dean answer the SAME > questions over and over and over because people didn't read the > posts from the day before? How many times did he read the SAME > complaints over and over and over because people just like to say > "me too"? > I don't like it that he left, and I don't think it was good PR to leave, > but he is, after all, a human being like the rest of us... he isn't the > big corporate monster everyone would like to believe he is... he > isn't personally responsible for everything Microsoft does, yet > people took all their frustrations with MS, tech support, and > the weather in Seattle out on the poor guy... > All he is a normal guy and a race fan trying to do his job and bring > a little public comment into MS to try to improve the game to make > it better for *us* while at the same time trying to promote his > project and his company... who would do less? > Sheesh...Quoted text (19 lines)
>> >> Thanks a WHOLE lot alison.. freaking dork.. Stupid girl posts like twice >> >> a year and then comes in here and makes Dean lose his patience and >> >> leave.. THANKS A LOT >> >> -- >> >> Dave Otterness >> > Oh yeah, this is all Alison's fault. Gee I hate you Alison :) It's >> >got nothing to do with pathetic AI. Gee I hate girls. >> >Hehehehehehehehehe! >> <grin> Thanks, Byron! >> Actualy, I must admit that I rather like Dave Otterness' comment. Not >> that I'm a ***; it's just that it's so absurd, it's funny. >Wow, the one person that I DIDN'T expect to like my post is actually the >only person that DID like it....... Sorry AlisonOn Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:42:58 -0600, David Otterness
>Hmmm, could've sworn I already did this, might've been in another
>thread.. Might wanna read other threads too Johnny-boy..
That's okay "Davie boy" - when you just start blazing away I'm sure it
often ends in an apology. Not surprising that you might forget where
and if.
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (18 lines)
> : His nonsensical, > : > unconnected posts seem to have that touch of someone immature attempting > : > to impress others with his wit and intelligence. > : > : <SARCASM> > : Nice one Dougie, I've *NEVER* seen another post that is "unconnected", > : especially not to the topic of the message.. NEVER. > : </SARCASM> > Heheh, if you're trying to needle me by calling me "Dougie" it's not > going to work. Wow, that's pretty impressive HTML work there too. You > learn that from one of those "Dummies" books? > The unconnected comment was directed at the fact that often one > sentance in your paragraphs has nothing to do with the sentance before, or > the one following. > dsh: His nonsensical,
: > unconnected posts seem to have that touch of someone immature attempting
: > to impress others with his wit and intelligence.
:
: <SARCASM>
: Nice one Dougie, I've *NEVER* seen another post that is "unconnected",
: especially not to the topic of the message.. NEVER.
: </SARCASM>
Heheh, if you're trying to needle me by calling me "Dougie" it's not
going to work. Wow, that's pretty impressive HTML work there too. You
learn that from one of those "Dummies" books?
The unconnected comment was directed at the fact that often one
sentance in your paragraphs has nothing to do with the sentance before, or
the one following.
dsh
As a polite gesture to the NG, would you consider*** up on this
particular thread, please? Since it's long since been centered around
you, personally, and not around the subject of the title, it's of little
interest and absolutely no value, except to you. Continue it in email to
your heart's content, but get it off the board.
Thanks
Bart Brown
Quoted text (9 lines)
> As a polite gesture to the NG, would you consider*** up on this > particular thread, please? Since it's long since been centered around > you, personally, and not around the subject of the title, it's of little > interest and absolutely no value, except to you. Continue it in email to > your heart's content, but get it off the board. > Thanks > Bart BrownThanks
BB
: I applaud MS for listening to the critics of the game and quickly
: working on a patch that hopes to address many of the problems that have
: been found. However, I still think the real point here is that the game
: should never have been released in it current state.
But the fact is, it was.. maybe it's time to move on to something more
constructive?
: >
: > As a polite gesture to the NG, would you consider*** up on this
: > particular thread, please? Since it's long since been centered around
: > you, personally, and not around the subject of the title, it's of little
: > interest and absolutely no value, except to you. Continue it in email to
: > your heart's content, but get it off the board.
: >
: > Thanks
: >
: > Bart Brown
:
: Okay I'm getting kinda bored of it too...
Yep, it's always the idiots make no sense that get bored first. Gotta
go babble nonsensically in another thread?
BTW Bart? You not figured out how to skip threads in a newsgroup? It's
pretty easy.
dsh
<<BTW Bart? You not figured out how to skip threads in a newsgroup?
It's pretty easy.>>
Gosh, Mr. Wizard, heck no! Please show me how to read messages in a
newsgroup...that would be SWELL!
Adoringly,
Bart
: <<BTW Bart? You not figured out how to skip threads in a newsgroup?
: It's pretty easy.>>
:
: Gosh, Mr. Wizard, heck no! Please show me how to read messages in a
: newsgroup...that would be SWELL!
Actually it seems that you can READ messages fine. You just haven't
grasped the concept of how to SKIP the ones that don't interest you.
But maybe you don't even read them correctly since you missed the point of
my post there.
Anyone who asks people to stop posting a thread on the usenet is either
a newbie or a fool. Which are you?
dsh
