CPR Patch - more details

Thanks for your patience everyone while we worked on CPR to include the requests and changes that have been posted and sent to us. The patch is intended to address the top issues:- 1) Improve AI 2) Boosting frame rate 3) Game controller null-zone 4) Pit lane auto-pilot 5) Gamma for track brightness 6) Gamma for car brightness 7) Rain tires 8) Friction levels on the grass 9) More precise control over graphics settings 10) Assorted bugs The good news is that the patch addresses all of these items. We are expecting to send out CD's to beta testers shortly - we do not want to rush this and I'm sure you understand why. Track editor hasn't been forgotten either - but we assumed the patch is higher priority! - Dean (still on RAS!)

Well Dean, here's another problem to work on that I haven't seen listed. When I exit a race and come back in, either by saving or viewing a replay, the cars handling seems to be completely different, even when restoring the same setup. How about a pause switch so I just take a break to rest a while? Mike

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> Thanks for your patience everyone while > we worked on CPR to include the requests > and changes that have been posted and sent to > us. > The patch is intended to address the top issues:- > 1) Improve AI > 2) Boosting frame rate > 3) Game controller null-zone > 4) Pit lane auto-pilot > 5) Gamma for track brightness > 6) Gamma for car brightness > 7) Rain tires > 8) Friction levels on the grass > 9) More precise control over graphics settings > 10) Assorted bugs > The good news is that the patch addresses all of these items. > We are expecting to send out CD's to beta testers shortly - > we do not want to rush this and I'm sure you understand why. > Track editor hasn't been forgotten either - but we assumed the > patch is higher priority! > - Dean (still on RAS!)

Dan, The good news is we have achieved between 25 and 50% (or greater) frame rate improvements for ALL users regardless of 3D card type - or no 3D card at all. We did a lot of benchmarking on Glide (that's what we have been doing for the last 3 weeks) but it didn't buy us very much - you need a really slow (yes, s-l-o-w) machine to see any difference at all. So TRi found several other ways to achieve much better improvements - for everyone. I am sure many of the "3D experts" on this NG will cry foul - but TRi spent weeks on the Glide version and have benchmarked the two versions of the SAME game side-by-side. Anyone else who has done this much research and coding in this area is welcome to offer their data - but the glib "Glide is much faster than D3D" story does not turn out to be the case. I am sure that won't satisfy everyone - especially those that love a good MS *** theory - but that's the reality. And before anyone posts their MS *** theory <yawn>, go here and check out a posting that corresponds exactly with what we found - and these guys have no reason to support MS - they develop a competing product to our own Flight Simulator ... [link lost in import] 39978.800457020&hitnum=0 "The patch is indeed reality. It should be on our web site next week. It does not include native glide support. But its not like that would get you vast speed improvements anyway. We've worked hard to get good efficiency with d3d. The biggest thing you can do for your hardware performance is to make sure your driver supports DrawPrimitive. -James Fleming, lead programmer on fu2"

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>On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:49:31 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)" >[snip] >>The patch is intended to address the top issues:- >>1) Improve AI >>2) Boosting frame rate >>3) Game controller null-zone >>4) Pit lane auto-pilot >>5) Gamma for track brightness >>6) Gamma for car brightness >>7) Rain tires >>8) Friction levels on the grass >>9) More precise control over graphics settings >>10) Assorted bugs >[snip] >>- Dean (still on RAS!) >How about Glide/Voodoo graphics support?? >Dan P.

See my posting on Glide - and yes, I can say! Setting turbo above 5 causes the pop-off valve to blow - it defaults to the highest setting (5). Turn it DOWN to conserve fuel. Jason L'Hirondelle wrote in article

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>Great. Here is some more... >How about support for Glide, Rendition or (OpenGL), Microsoft just gave >into it I have read. >Man I hate D3D, It so sucks, Just my opinion...But Im sure anyone with eyes >would agree, Im sure you do but can not say. >And how about YELLOW flags and pace laps, not cars on rails, this is a sim? >And what about the turbo setting problem, anything above 5 and it sounds >like my >Grandmothers Volkswagon. >More to come. >> Thanks for your patience everyone while >> we worked on CPR to include the requests >> and changes that have been posted and sent to >> us. >> The patch is intended to address the top issues:- >> 1) Improve AI >> 2) Boosting frame rate HOW?? >> 3) Game controller null-zone >> 4) Pit lane auto-pilot >> 5) Gamma for track brightness >> 6) Gamma for car brightness >> 7) Rain tires >> 8) Friction levels on the grass >> 9) More precise control over graphics settings How?? >> 10) Assorted bugs WHAT?? >> The good news is that the patch addresses all of these items. >> We are expecting to send out CD's to beta testers shortly - >> we do not want to rush this and I'm sure you understand why. >> Track editor hasn't been forgotten either - but we assumed the >> patch is higher priority! >> - Dean (still on RAS!) >.

Forgot to add: 11) Steering ratio maximum increased in garage 12) <Default> setups improved for beginners 13) Wing-type error fixed I'm sure there's more I've forgotten ...

Just go to the "realism" dialog to change the field size - up to 29 cars. Jason L'Hirondelle wrote in article

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>Opps, forgot one other thing. >How about the ability to race with a Full Field, 12 cars is good for a Go >Cart race, not >an Indy Race, Hey I just want to push the limits of reality... like the box >says. >I suppose this has to to with the poor Framerate, again D3D rears its slow >and ugly head. >> Thanks for your patience everyone while >> we worked on CPR to include the requests >> and changes that have been posted and sent to >> us. >> The patch is intended to address the top issues:- >> 1) Improve AI >> 2) Boosting frame rate >> 3) Game controller null-zone >> 4) Pit lane auto-pilot >> 5) Gamma for track brightness >> 6) Gamma for car brightness >> 7) Rain tires >> 8) Friction levels on the grass >> 9) More precise control over graphics settings >> 10) Assorted bugs >> The good news is that the patch addresses all of these items. >> We are expecting to send out CD's to beta testers shortly - >> we do not want to rush this and I'm sure you understand why. >> Track editor hasn't been forgotten either - but we assumed the >> patch is higher priority! >> - Dean (still on RAS!) >.

On Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:49:31 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)" [snip] How about Glide/Voodoo graphics support?? Dan P. _______________ Remove 99 in my address to reply

Great. Here is some more... How about support for Glide, Rendition or (OpenGL), Microsoft just gave into it I have read. Man I hate D3D, It so sucks, Just my opinion...But Im sure anyone with eyes would agree, Im sure you do but can not say. And how about YELLOW flags and pace laps, not cars on rails, this is a sim? And what about the turbo setting problem, anything above 5 and it sounds like my Grandmothers Volkswagon. More to come.

Opps, forgot one other thing. How about the ability to race with a Full Field, 12 cars is good for a Go Cart race, not an Indy Race, Hey I just want to push the limits of reality... like the box says. I suppose this has to to with the poor Framerate, again D3D rears its slow and ugly head.

Since you posted this, I think it's only fair to point out that Andy Hollis, the highly respected sim designer/project leader on LongBow2, has stated just as emphatically (if not more so) that the LB2 graphics quality and speed can not be done via D3D on any current 3D hardware (3dfx or otherwise). Only Glide was fast [and feature rich] enough. Not suggesting a ***, just pointing out that not all programmer's have reached the conclusions you are posting here. Of course, Mr. Hollis was referring to graphical quality as well as speed - there are several features of the 3dfx card that can only be accessed via Glide. A "feature gap", I might point out, that will only grow wider in the future if Microsoft doesn't change their stance on the issue of supporting hardware geometry acceleration in D3D. I'm not saying I boycott D3D games or anything. But I prefer Glide games, as they seem generally more reliable, faster, and of higher visual quality. Joe

Perhaps people have forgotten that D3D looks and runs great with MotoRacer. Now maybe it runs great because the field or AI racers is smaller than a full field of a CART race or that the physics model is way more simple but I am confident that the framerate in CPR has much room for improvement. Unfortunately I did not see any mention of yellow flags added. Now this I feel is important because if there is a multicar pile up in turn 2 at Michigan, trying to drive around the track at 230MPH is not going to be a pleasant experience. Now as far as the patch goes, will it be available on the web at the same time it is sent to the beta testers on CD? I'm looking forward to it and this game can only get better. Kas PS: I apologize to the newsgroup for a poorly thought out post I left last week. It was not my intention to start a flame up but the post went crazy and I said some things that were not necessary. Well everyone makes mistakes and I have had my share of them. It won't happen again.

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> The patch is intended to address the top issues:- > 1) Improve AI > 2) Boosting frame rate > 3) Game controller null-zone > 4) Pit lane auto-pilot > 5) Gamma for track brightness > 6) Gamma for car brightness > 7) Rain tires > 8) Friction levels on the grass > 9) More precise control over graphics settings > 10) Assorted bugs > The good news is that the patch addresses all of these items.

Well, if you get all this done, especially the null zone thing, then I may just have to go get it. How does this game shape up as an offline competition sim. The Zone is good but eliminates the prospects of an international comp. Cheers.

> Thanks for your patience everyone while > we worked on CPR to include the requests > and changes that have been posted and sent to > us. > - Dean (still on RAS!) I love CART Precision Racing and won't take it back. But I'm also frustrated by some of its shortcomings. I'm new to this discussion, but along with the crazy AI, no yellow flags, slow frame rates and auto-pilot I would like some other things addressed: When you save a race and reload it puts you in first gear even if you were in sixth gear doing 240 mph! Is this intentional or a bug? There is no central location to see opponents best times in comparison to your own. The Hall of Fame only shows how you are doing against yourself. But I'd like a central place to compare my scores (and single-race wins) against everyone elses. Its a drag waiting to only get this information AFTER the race and then have to save it individually for every race. All the save features, in fact, are confusing and non-intuitive. I've been playing the game for a week and haven't been able to restart a season once I've saved it. I never seem to know what I'm saving and where. I'll be more specific about how I would like it to operate if this seems like something that would plausibly be changed. Also needed is the Nascar Racing 2 "SHIFT-R" restart key. This immediately restarts a race so if you get in a pileup early on you don't have to wade through a bunch of menus to start over. This is a small easy to implement feature that eases frustration and really adds to the playability of a game. Finally I'd like to see more comprehensive damage reports and tire temperature readings. Sometimes its hard to tell what is going on just by the feel of the car. I have more suggestions but I don't want to overload everyone right now. Tom

I think its a performance boost which is controlled by pressure. Therefore if you over do it, you get the noise. Best Regards Trevor Dwyer

So the possibility of GL patch is gone, what a disappointment. I was hoping to see an end to all of the flicker that owners of 3dfx Voodoo Rush cards have been getting with the D3d. I do recognize that CPR is the only D3D program that I have with the flicker problem (FS 98, and MotoRacer look great). So if the flicker is still in CPR and GL patch does not happen, I can always use another coaster for my coffee table (CPR CD) I was eager to have a choice, and to make judgements on my own which mode, GL or D3D I would prefer to run in.

FWIW I've had some very good races with both MTM and the CPR demo on the Zone. Even using dial-up from home here in the UK it was very playable. Cheers! John

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>The patch is intended to address the top issues:- >1) Improve AI >2) Boosting frame rate >3) Game controller null-zone >4) Pit lane auto-pilot >5) Gamma for track brightness >6) Gamma for car brightness >7) Rain tires >8) Friction levels on the grass >9) More precise control over graphics settings >10) Assorted bugs

I hope the patch corrects the flickering problem with Riva 128 cards. At first I thought it was a driver problem but since I tried some other games (including "F1 Racing Simulation") which use Direct3D without flicker, I now know the problem is in CART. Bye! Martin Simard

Will there be a new demo with the fixes? To be honest, I wasn't too impressed with control or graphics of the original demo (especially when it resided on my HD at the same time as the F1 Racing Sim demo from UbiSoft), and pretty much wrote off CPR and decided to wait for F1RS. BUT, with 25-50% increase in frame rate and the null zone adjustment it would be worth another look. So, any chance of a new demo? Alan

Joe, You_are_correct - there are some features unique to the 3Dfx hardware that cannot be accessed using DirectX5 - none that are useful to CPR I might add. However, the next generation of DirectX, I am assured, will address the double-pass rendering and the other last couple of items. The performance issue I stand by - why? Because we just spent 3 weeks and $$$ on doing the glide port so we know what we're talking about. This is not secondhand info - we did the numbers. I have the two versions in front of me right now - we did the port because WE thought it might buy us some performance. It didn't - end of story (yeah, right). So I don't expect for one minute for anyone to support/approve or even believe this data - but so what? We did the work, we have the data, that's all I need. We wouldn't have even done the Glide port if we were so set against it. My job is to make CPR (and Flight Sim and Monster Truck and X, Y and Z tba) the best Sims they can be - not to make D3D look good if it isn't. I don't work in the Systems group - I work in the Games group - I run the Simulations business for Microsoft - if my products stiff because I made bad technology choices then it's my profitability - and ultimately my head. There it is - I have been (painfully) honest on this NG so far and I do not intend to start changing that now. >>And before anyone posts their MS *** theory <yawn>, go here and check >>out a posting that corresponds exactly with what we found - and these guys >>have no reason to support MS - they develop a competing product to our own >>Flight Simulator ... >>[link lost in import]14

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>>39978.800457020&hitnum=0 >>"The patch is indeed reality. It should be on our web site next week. It >>does not include native glide support. But its not like that would get you >>vast speed improvements anyway. We've worked hard to get good efficiency >>with d3d. The biggest thing you can do for your hardware performance is to >>make sure your driver supports DrawPrimitive. >>-James Fleming, >>lead programmer on fu2" >Since you posted this, I think it's only fair to point out that Andy >Hollis, the highly respected sim designer/project leader on LongBow2, >has stated just as emphatically (if not more so) that the LB2 graphics >quality and speed can not be done via D3D on any current 3D hardware >(3dfx or otherwise). Only Glide was fast [and feature rich] enough. >Not suggesting a ***, just pointing out that not all >programmer's have reached the conclusions you are posting here. Of >course, Mr. Hollis was referring to graphical quality as well as speed >- there are several features of the 3dfx card that can only be >accessed via Glide. A "feature gap", I might point out, that will only >grow wider in the future if Microsoft doesn't change their stance on >the issue of supporting hardware geometry acceleration in D3D. >I'm not saying I boycott D3D games or anything. But I prefer Glide >games, as they seem generally more reliable, faster, and of higher >visual quality. >Joe >.

Not all D3D games use the same hardware features in the same way. Diamond's latest drivers for their Riva 128 chipset FIXED the flicker. I know the other Riva OEMs are working on updated drivers. It is a driver problem - I assure you.

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>>The patch is intended to address the top issues:- >>1) Improve AI >>2) Boosting frame rate >>3) Game controller null-zone >>4) Pit lane auto-pilot >>5) Gamma for track brightness >>6) Gamma for car brightness >>7) Rain tires >>8) Friction levels on the grass >>9) More precise control over graphics settings >>10) Assorted bugs >I hope the patch corrects the flickering problem with Riva 128 cards. At >first I thought it was a driver problem but since I tried some other games >(including "F1 Racing Simulation") which use Direct3D without flicker, I

now

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>know the problem is in CART. >Bye! >Martin Simard >.

It is my intention that we'll release a patch for the full game and a new demo incorporating the same improvements. VABergfeld wrote in article

The Zone is not required. As long as the host can get his IP address to all clients. -Paul

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>> The patch is intended to address the top issues:- >> 1) Improve AI >> 2) Boosting frame rate >> 3) Game controller null-zone >> 4) Pit lane auto-pilot >> 5) Gamma for track brightness >> 6) Gamma for car brightness >> 7) Rain tires >> 8) Friction levels on the grass >> 9) More precise control over graphics settings >> 10) Assorted bugs >> The good news is that the patch addresses all of these items. > Well, if you get all this done, especially the null zone thing, then >I may just have to go get it. How does this game shape up as an offline >competition sim. The Zone is good but eliminates the prospects of an >international comp. Cheers.

It's a driver problem. When I downloaded the latest Viper driver from http://www.diamondmm.com, I ran CPR before installing the new driver. Major flicker. I installed the driver, no flicker. -Paul

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>>The patch is intended to address the top issues:- >>1) Improve AI >>2) Boosting frame rate >>3) Game controller null-zone >>4) Pit lane auto-pilot >>5) Gamma for track brightness >>6) Gamma for car brightness >>7) Rain tires >>8) Friction levels on the grass >>9) More precise control over graphics settings >>10) Assorted bugs >I hope the patch corrects the flickering problem with Riva 128 cards. At >first I thought it was a driver problem but since I tried some other games >(including "F1 Racing Simulation") which use Direct3D without flicker, I

now >know the problem is in CART. >Bye! >Martin Simard

Dean, I for one appreciate having you on this newsgroup. Its nice to know someone with direct input into what ultimately comes out to the market. Just a quick question. Awhile back I mentioned (requested) a FAQ on how to increase *** and general performance in Windows95 and you thought it was a good idea and said you would pass it along. I havent heard anything since and was wondering where we might stand on that. Thanks, Scott B. Husted [link lost in import: /~sbhusted]

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> Joe, > You_are_correct - there are some features unique to the 3Dfx hardware that > cannot be accessed using DirectX5 - none that are useful to CPR I might add. > However, the next generation of DirectX, I am assured, will address the > double-pass rendering and the other last couple of items. > The performance issue I stand by - why? Because we just spent 3 weeks and > $$$ on doing the glide port > so we know what we're talking about. This is not secondhand info - we did > the numbers. I have the two versions in front of me right now - we did the > port because WE thought it might buy us some performance. It didn't - end of > story (yeah, right). > So I don't expect for one minute for anyone to support/approve or even > believe this data - but so what? We did the work, we have the data, that's > all I need. > We wouldn't have even done the Glide port if we were so set against it. > My job is to make CPR (and Flight Sim and Monster Truck and X, Y and Z tba) > the best Sims they can be - not to make D3D look good if it isn't. > I don't work in the Systems group - I work in the Games group - I run the > Simulations business for Microsoft - if my products stiff because I made bad > technology choices then it's my profitability - and ultimately my head. > There it is - I have been (painfully) honest on this NG so far and I do not > intend to start changing that now. > >>And before anyone posts their MS *** theory <yawn>, go here and > check > >>out a posting that corresponds exactly with what we found - and these guys > >>have no reason to support MS - they develop a competing product to our own > >>Flight Simulator ... > >>[link lost in import] > 14 > >>39978.800457020&hitnum=0 > >>"The patch is indeed reality. It should be on our web site next week. It > >>does not include native glide support. But its not like that would get you > >>vast speed improvements anyway. We've worked hard to get good efficiency > >>with d3d. The biggest thing you can do for your hardware performance is to > >>make sure your driver supports DrawPrimitive. > >>-James Fleming, > >>lead programmer on fu2" > >Since you posted this, I think it's only fair to point out that Andy > >Hollis, the highly respected sim designer/project leader on LongBow2, > >has stated just as emphatically (if not more so) that the LB2 graphics > >quality and speed can not be done via D3D on any current 3D hardware > >(3dfx or otherwise). Only Glide was fast [and feature rich] enough. > >Not suggesting a ***, just pointing out that not all > >programmer's have reached the conclusions you are posting here. Of > >course, Mr. Hollis was referring to graphical quality as well as speed > >- there are several features of the 3dfx card that can only be > >accessed via Glide. A "feature gap", I might point out, that will only > >grow wider in the future if Microsoft doesn't change their stance on > >the issue of supporting hardware geometry acceleration in D3D. > >I'm not saying I boycott D3D games or anything. But I prefer Glide > >games, as they seem generally more reliable, faster, and of higher > >visual quality. > >Joe > >.

I was surprised how well it worked in the UK as well, although I guess it takes some practice - couldn't achieve the same times as stand alone getting used to the change in frame rate. Still very playable though. (Just my excuse for losing!) Tony

> I hope the patch corrects the flickering problem with Riva 128 cards. > At first I thought it was a driver problem but since I tried some other > games (including "F1 Racing Simulation") which use Direct3D > without flicker, I now know the problem is in CART. Which board are you having problems with? I've got the Riva 128 based Diamond Viper 330 both at home (PCI) and at work (AGP), and, after installing the new drivers, the demo is flicker free. I haven't tried it with any other D3D games that I know of... Is ABC's Road to Indy a D3D title? That's the only other new title I have tried recently and I know it doesn't flicker... - Mike. ==================================================== Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"... ====================================================

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> Dan, > The good news is we have achieved between 25 and 50% (or greater) frame rate > improvements for ALL users regardless of 3D card type - or no 3D card at > all. > We did a lot of benchmarking on Glide (that's what we have been doing for > the last 3 weeks) but it didn't buy us very much - you need a really slow > (yes, s-l-o-w) machine to see any difference at all. So TRi found several > other ways to achieve much better improvements - for everyone. > I am sure many of the "3D experts" on this NG will cry foul - but TRi spent > weeks on the Glide version and have benchmarked the two versions of the SAME > game side-by-side. Anyone else who has done this much research and coding in > this area is welcome to offer their data - but the glib "Glide is much > faster than D3D" story does not turn out to be the case. I am sure that > won't satisfy everyone - especially those that love a good MS *** > theory - but that's the reality. > And before anyone posts their MS *** theory <yawn>, go here and check > out a posting that corresponds exactly with what we found - and these guys > have no reason to support MS - they develop a competing product to our own > Flight Simulator ...

It's kind of ridiculous for you to catagorically state that the "Glide is much faster than D3D story" is not the case. I am not at all surprised that it isn't the case for CPR or some other applications, but that's likely for reasons related to the way the 3D engine is designed and/or the way the physics and AI calculations may dominate what's going on and not the graphics. You can't change the fact that D3D is an additional software layer between the application and the hardware and therefore eats CPU cycles. From my recollection of discussions led by Daryll Strauss (the guy who ported Glide to Linux), Glide is mainly written in assembly and is a very thin and highly optimized layer between 3dfx hardware and the application. It is therefore highly effecient and doesn't waste many CPU cycles. It just depends on where the bottlenecks are in the software. I'm not surprised that graphics are not a bottleneck in CPR. They don't look that great IMO. Besides that, there is the issue of extra features that can be supported by a native Glide port versus D3D...I don't know what they are, but according to Andy Hollis (the producer of Longbow2) they are there. -- The Scripps Research Institute http://www.scripps.edu/~jsmith

>FWIW I've had some very good races with both MTM and the CPR demo on >the Zone. Even using dial-up from home here in the UK it was very >playable. I never got it working well at all. Horrible stuttering/jumping of other cars. And I'm less than a hundred miles from Microsoft headquarters. Joe

Yup, that's one of the big disadvantages of D3D all right. It seems even the most exhaustive testing by developers can't eliminate graphical glitches on at least some cards. Joe

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>So the possibility of GL patch is gone, what a disappointment. I was hoping >to see an end to all of the flicker that owners of 3dfx Voodoo Rush cards >have been getting with the D3d. I do recognize that CPR is the only D3D >program that I have with the flicker problem (FS 98, and MotoRacer look >great). So if the flicker is still in CPR and GL patch does not happen, I >can always use another coaster for my coffee table (CPR CD) I was eager to >have a choice, and to make judgements on my own which mode, GL or D3D I >would prefer to run in.

That's a good point, that has been missed on this - Glide games aren't only faster and easier to program, they're also more reliable. I've never had a Glide program fail to run on my Monster3d 3dfx setup (can't say the same for D3D), and never run into the graphical glitches that are fairly common in D3D games. Joe

No offense, but I have EXTREMELY little faith in this promise. For one thing, the "feature gap" not supported by D3D will probably grow as soon as next month, when Voodoo2 boards are released. Microsoft has been extremely slow and unaggresive in updating D3D to compete with Glide. And Microsoft has already stated they will NOT support geometry acceleration in the future, which is almost certainly the next major task the 3d boards will tackle. I believe you are telling the truth about Glide in CPR - but that is one program. For many, many other programs Glide has offered the developers significant speed improvements (and, of course, greatly lowered development costs for both imlpementation and testing). Perhaps they have more advanced graphics engines, and needed those features D3D doesn't support. Or maybe just more experienced Glide programmers who know how to make the API work. Joe

Joe, Microsoft "slow and unaggressive"? Can I quote you on that? ; ) A new version of DirectX has shipped every ~10 months - version 6 coming soon - your faith not withstanding. Sounds pretty aggressive to me ... ? The developers of new hardware work with the DirectX team to get their functionality incorporated - if geometry acceleration is coming up soon (do you know who and when? details please) you can be sure the DirectX guys will want to support it. You are correct that writing to one piece of hardware is faster and cheaper than supporting many. You have a 3dfx card - you are happy. Great! It's a good card. What about those owners of Rendition? Riva 128? The new faster breed of cards coming soon? One day you'll buy a new card - it may not be Voodoo based. Think about it. And the "feature gap" between D3D and custom api's is closing, not opening. Please don't slam us for trying to provide support for as many users systems as possible. p.s. out of curiosity - do you program using any of these api's? >>You_are_correct - there are some features unique to the 3Dfx hardware that >>cannot be accessed using DirectX5 - none that are useful to CPR I might add.

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>>However, the next generation of DirectX, I am assured, will address the >>double-pass rendering and the other last couple of items. >No offense, but I have EXTREMELY little faith in this promise. For one >thing, the "feature gap" not supported by D3D will probably grow as >soon as next month, when Voodoo2 boards are released. Microsoft has >been extremely slow and unaggresive in updating D3D to compete with >Glide. And Microsoft has already stated they will NOT support geometry >acceleration in the future, which is almost certainly the next major >task the 3d boards will tackle. >>The performance issue I stand by - why? Because we just spent 3 weeks and >>$$$ on doing the glide port >>so we know what we're talking about. This is not secondhand info - we did >>the numbers. I have the two versions in front of me right now - we did the >>port because WE thought it might buy us some performance. It didn't - end

of

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>>story (yeah, right). >I believe you are telling the truth about Glide in CPR - but that is >one program. For many, many other programs Glide has offered the >developers significant speed improvements (and, of course, greatly >lowered development costs for both imlpementation and testing). >Perhaps they have more advanced graphics engines, and needed those >features D3D doesn't support. Or maybe just more experienced Glide >programmers who know how to make the API work. >Joe

...snip >>"The patch is indeed reality. It should be on our web site next week. It >>does not include native glide support. But its not like that would get you >>vast speed improvements anyway. We've worked hard to get good efficiency >>with d3d. The biggest thing you can do for your hardware performance is to >>make sure your driver supports DrawPrimitive. Thanks, Makes my choice a bit easier now. Almost ate my words and bought CPR about a week ago anticipating the "patch" and AT THE TIME, the supposed strong possibility of native "glide" support. To tell you the truth, the only reason I passed it up was the high retail price of $54 which was rather shocking since there are currently so many undesirables within the AI and framerate,ect... Guess this is a no-brainer since Microsoft's name usually holds true to atleast $10 to $20 more per similar title vs.s many other respectable and popular software publishers. Another thing which is a bit of a "pain in the a$$" is the endless searching for CERTIFIED drivers for soundcards, video, monitor, ect... just to be sure you are getting the so-called optimum performance in Direct3d. Guess this could be my fault for not shopping smart and making sure I have the latest most popular "leading company brand" hardware in my system, but my P166MMX w/ 32Meg EDO, Mtech R528WP w/ 512PB cache, IMES 12X CDRom, Addonics SoundVision 500, Stealth II, Pure3d.... seems to produce pleasing results in about everything short of about 90% of D3D titles which just don't come close to Glide, OpenGL, RRedline, and Rendition ports. I was still looking forward to CPR in a "fixed" and "true accelerated" state, but it looks like this round UBISOFT'S FORMULA F1 will be the open wheel racer on my system. Ron L. (Please remove the extra letter(s) to respond) Home of the SSC http://www3.pgh.net/~lazer/ For Nascar2 & Winston Cup Fans!

Please read my entire posting - you have just quoted the piece regarding Flight Unlimited 2. >...snip >>>"The patch is indeed reality. It should be on our web site next week. It >>>does not include native glide support. But its not like that would get you >>>vast speed improvements anyway. We've worked hard to get good efficiency >>>with d3d. The biggest thing you can do for your hardware performance is to

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>>>make sure your driver supports DrawPrimitive. >Thanks, Makes my choice a bit easier now. Almost ate my words and >bought CPR about a week ago anticipating the "patch" and AT THE TIME, >the supposed strong possibility of native "glide" support. To tell you >the truth, the only reason I passed it up was the high retail price of >$54 which was rather shocking since there are currently so many >undesirables within the AI and framerate,ect... Guess this is a >no-brainer since Microsoft's name usually holds true to atleast $10 to >$20 more per similar title vs.s many other respectable and popular >software publishers. Another thing which is a bit of a "pain in the >a$$" is the endless searching for CERTIFIED drivers for soundcards, >video, monitor, ect... just to be sure you are getting the so-called >optimum performance in Direct3d. Guess this could be my fault for not >shopping smart and making sure I have the latest most popular "leading >company brand" hardware in my system, but my P166MMX w/ 32Meg EDO, >Mtech R528WP w/ 512PB cache, IMES 12X CDRom, Addonics SoundVision 500, >Stealth II, Pure3d.... seems to produce pleasing results in about >everything short of about 90% of D3D titles which just don't come >close to Glide, OpenGL, RRedline, and Rendition ports. I was still >looking forward to CPR in a "fixed" and "true accelerated" state, but >it looks like this round UBISOFT'S FORMULA F1 will be the open wheel >racer on my system. >Ron L. >(Please remove the extra letter(s) to respond) >Home of the SSC http://www3.pgh.net/~lazer/ >For Nascar2 & Winston Cup Fans!

Good posting Joe. Hopefully you'll see improvements in DirectX6 that you'll like ... And yes, Voodoo2 is a << SCREAMER >>>. CPR will run like a Banshee on it. 100fps anyone? And yes, MS is backing OpenGL too - we are not obsessed with only one solution! Here's some links to info on MS working with SGI ... [link lost in import] And more details on api performance ... [link lost in import] Regards, Dean.

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>>Microsoft "slow and unaggressive"? Can I quote you on that? ; ) >Some of your critics will like that one, eh? ;-) >>A new version of DirectX has shipped every ~10 months - version 6 coming >>soon - your faith not withstanding. >>Sounds pretty aggressive to me ... ? >I wouldn't say it's been ignored, but it also doesn't seem that >Microsoft is as serious about DX as they could be. Note the >still-infuriating "calibration jitters" that Win95 has reading *** >devices on many systems. This is a software problem, as the devices >read perfectly clean in DOS (and it has the same problems for >soundcard joysticks and dedicated speed-adjustable gamecards). These >problems, which really detract from the overall quality of Win95 as a >*** platform, have been there since the first versions of DirectX >and they remain unfixed. When you fix long-outstanding, basic problems >like this I will be much more enthusiastic about DirectX generally and >D3D specifically. >>You have a 3dfx card - you are happy. Great! It's a good card. >>What about those owners of Rendition? Riva 128? The new faster breed of >>cards coming soon? >>One day you'll buy a new card - it may not be Voodoo based. Think about

it.

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>I don't care. I want the BEST *** experience possible, and am >willing to pay for it. Today that usually means Glide games running on >3dfx. If someone else produces a better card (good enough to get >developer API support) I'll buy that card. Though frankly, I see no >one appraoching Voodoo soon. Voodoo1 has been out over a year, is >about to be made obsolete by Voodo2, and the competition is only now >just getting *close* to Voodoo1 quality and speed. Looks like Voodoo >will remain the king of 3d cards for AT LEAST the next year. >Having said all that, I certainly acknowledge that good, quality D3D >games are *possible* - Moto Racer and Jedi Knight come to mind. And if >a game does provide "good enough" graphics through D3D combined with >solid gameplay, I will buy it. Though I'm wishing I hadn't bought >G-Police, which won't run on my system at all. >>And the "feature gap" between D3D and custom api's is closing, not

opening. >Maybe, we'll see. The final feature set of Voodoo2 has yet to be >announced. >>Please don't slam us for trying to provide support for as many users systems

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>>as possible. >Nothing wrong with trying that, it's an admirable goal, I just find >that D3D in it's current state is too much of a compromise. I wish you >had chosen a better, established 3D API such as OpenGL. Speaking of >which, I saw a rumor posted the other day that MS *was* looking at >getting behind Open GL on Win95, but I couldn't find any news about >this - any truth to that? >>p.s. out of curiosity - do you program using any of these api's? >No, not currently (thinking about applying for a job in the games >industry though). >Joe

What do you mean by "cars on rails." Can you be more specific, like "a real Indy car can go through such and such turn at such and such track at 140 mph, but in CPR you can go at xxx mph, which is too fast" The sound you hear from setting the boost above 5 is the pop-off valve. If you had looked at the boost pressure on the display you would have noticed that you already had a maximum of 40 psi, which is the limit. -- Kevin (Remove the "x-" prefix from my address in order to reply via email)

>That's a good point, that has been missed on this - Glide games aren't >only faster and easier to program, they're also more reliable. I've >never had a Glide program fail to run on my Monster3d 3dfx setup >(can't say the same for D3D), and never run into the graphical >glitches that are fairly common in D3D games. On 2 different machines now, the Hercules Stingray 128/3D using the 3DFX Voodoo Rush has been failed to be seen as a 3DFX by software installation programs for Ubisoft F1 and Test Drive 4. This is in spite of the fact that the Glide demos run just fine on them using Glide 4.3. Granted, most Voodoo owners look down on the Rush chipset as some kind of bastard child, but it *IS* a 3DFX chipset and it *IS* supported by Glide drivers, and yet some software doesn't recognize it, even on 2 completely different machines. So please don't make it look like 3DFX is immune from hassles. Randy

>I was still looking forward to CPR in a "fixed" and "true accelerated" state, Do I smell a religion forming here? Is D3D no longer "true" acceleration? Does the church know about this? BURN THE INFIDELS! <G> UbiSoft has a nice sim, but its not a CART sim. Apples & oranges. Randy

Some of your critics will like that one, eh? ;-) I wouldn't say it's been ignored, but it also doesn't seem that Microsoft is as serious about DX as they could be. Note the still-infuriating "calibration jitters" that Win95 has reading *** devices on many systems. This is a software problem, as the devices read perfectly clean in DOS (and it has the same problems for soundcard joysticks and dedicated speed-adjustable gamecards). These problems, which really detract from the overall quality of Win95 as a *** platform, have been there since the first versions of DirectX and they remain unfixed. When you fix long-outstanding, basic problems like this I will be much more enthusiastic about DirectX generally and D3D specifically. I don't care. I want the BEST *** experience possible, and am willing to pay for it. Today that usually means Glide games running on 3dfx. If someone else produces a better card (good enough to get developer API support) I'll buy that card. Though frankly, I see no one appraoching Voodoo soon. Voodoo1 has been out over a year, is about to be made obsolete by Voodo2, and the competition is only now just getting *close* to Voodoo1 quality and speed. Looks like Voodoo will remain the king of 3d cards for AT LEAST the next year. Having said all that, I certainly acknowledge that good, quality D3D games are *possible* - Moto Racer and Jedi Knight come to mind. And if a game does provide "good enough" graphics through D3D combined with solid gameplay, I will buy it. Though I'm wishing I hadn't bought G-Police, which won't run on my system at all. Maybe, we'll see. The final feature set of Voodoo2 has yet to be announced. Nothing wrong with trying that, it's an admirable goal, I just find that D3D in it's current state is too much of a compromise. I wish you had chosen a better, established 3D API such as OpenGL. Speaking of which, I saw a rumor posted the other day that MS *was* looking at getting behind Open GL on Win95, but I couldn't find any news about this - any truth to that? No, not currently (thinking about applying for a job in the games industry though). Joe

Dean, the guy owns a 3DFX ... he's not going to buy anything that's not from them! When you buy a 3DFX, you are sworn to the "code" which says that you will become one of the faithful for which 3DFX can do no wrong, all Voodoos rule, and anyone who doesn't own one is an infidel :) Randy

You've actually done some testing on one then? Or is this just a guestimate? Glad to hear it, that's very good news! Open GL is an excelent API, and will greatly stengthen the Win95 platform for *** and 3d graphics. Thanks for the links. Joe

>wrong, all Voodoos rule, and anyone who doesn't own one is an infidel >:) No you've got it wrong, a man without a 3dfx iss a *commie*, not an infidel. ;-) Joe

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> >One day you'll buy a new card - it may not be Voodoo based. Think about it. > Dean, the guy owns a 3DFX ... he's not going to buy anything that's > not from them! When you buy a 3DFX, you are sworn to the "code" which > says that you will become one of the faithful for which 3DFX can do no > wrong, all Voodoos rule, and anyone who doesn't own one is an infidel > :)

This is nonsense! So you think everyone owning a Voodoo board is a 13 year old nerd religously following a hardware company? Right now it is rather ignorant to buy any other 3D card, and this is purely for technical reasons... l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> >I was still looking forward to CPR in a "fixed" and "true accelerated" state, > Do I smell a religion forming here? Is D3D no longer "true" > acceleration? Does the church know about this? BURN THE INFIDELS! > <G> > > but it looks like this round UBISOFT'S FORMULA F1 will be the open wheel > >racer on my system. > UbiSoft has a nice sim, but its not a CART sim. Apples & oranges.

Yeah, what I would like to see would UbiSoft do a CART sim and TRI do a F1 sim. Then I would own a great F1 sim AND would get a great CART sim next... ;^) l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

>I never got it working well at all. Horrible stuttering/jumping of >other cars. And I'm less than a hundred miles from Microsoft >headquarters. The Zone server is probably located here in Scotland :) Cheers! John

% Joe, % You_are_correct - there are some features unique to the 3Dfx hardware that % cannot be accessed using DirectX5 - none that are useful to CPR I might add. % However, the next generation of DirectX, I am assured, will address the % double-pass rendering and the other last couple of items. % The performance issue I stand by - why? Because we just spent 3 weeks and % $$$ on doing the glide port % so we know what we're talking about. This is not secondhand info - we did % the numbers. I have the two versions in front of me right now - we did the % port because WE thought it might buy us some performance. It didn't - end of % story (yeah, right). % So I don't expect for one minute for anyone to support/approve or even % believe this data - but so what? We did the work, we have the data, that's % all I need. % We wouldn't have even done the Glide port if we were so set against it. % My job is to make CPR (and Flight Sim and Monster Truck and X, Y and Z tba) % the best Sims they can be - not to make D3D look good if it isn't. % I don't work in the Systems group - I work in the Games group - I run the % Simulations business for Microsoft - if my products stiff because I made bad % technology choices then it's my profitability - and ultimately my head. % There it is - I have been (painfully) honest on this NG so far and I do not % intend to start changing that now. I would like to thank you for your presence here in r.a.s. (a somewhat wild and wooly Old West shoot-out zone at times). I also believe you have been honest with the group. At times however, I think you have been too involved in spin control (understandably) and in doing so appear to avoid or dismiss certain problems people have been having with your product. With that said, keep it up. I look forward to your patch in the hopes that the promise seen in CPR can actually be delivered. At times I think it appears that the avid (or sometimes rabid) posters in r.a.s. are out to "poison" the well. But, in truth I think they are looking and striving for the same thing you and your development team are, an excellent CART simulation. Just understand, we are the hardened sim junkies and the "new drug" on the market needs-must be stronger and better than anything we've already pumped into our system. We are finely tuned to what makes or breaks a sim-drug, and as soon as our "systems" detect something amiss we howl like a junkie in withdrawl. Just remember, we really do want your product to be the best it can be, and that is mainly why we complain so much. Thanks again for sticking your neck (and sanity) on the line and contributing here in r.a.s. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>>wrong, all Voodoos rule, and anyone who doesn't own one is an infidel >>:) >No you've got it wrong, a man without a 3dfx iss a *commie*, not an >infidel. ;-) Whatever they're called, they're more to be pitied than scolded... Cheers! John

Does microsoft have any plans to ever fix the probs win95 has with memory such as swapping memory out to disk when not necesary(causing pauses in gameplay)? Win95 sometimes swaps to disk even though it doesnt need to sometimes this is a known bug to advanced users.

Question for the Systems guys not the Games guys - sorry. >Does microsoft have any plans to ever fix the probs win95 has with >memory such as swapping memory out to disk when not necesary(causing >pauses in gameplay)? Win95 sometimes swaps to disk even though it doesnt >need to sometimes this is a known bug to advanced users.

following a hardware company? No to the 13 year old part. Religion knows no age. for technical reasons... Now *this* is nonsense. "purely for technical reasons" you'd buy the fastest board available and right now that's cards like the Riva 128, whose native API *IS* Direct3D, or one of the new Stealths. (And if you really want to get it right you'll go AGP and turn a mild performance improvement into an absolute rout) Of course, all that changes when the Voodoo 2 is finally released at whatever high price point 3DFX will charge, but in terms of "right now" as you put it, 3DFX is no longer king of the hill. The only way you could argue that it is, is if you compare a fast Glide program to a Direct3D program and find the Glide program to win out, but whether its "the right thing" or not, the standard is Direct3D right now, not Glide, and with so many titles coming out supporting Direct3D and only one of the native API's (take your pick), the only SMART choice is to buy the board which is going to have the best chance to run any given game and run it the fastest. That is NOT the current 3DFX Voodoo chipset anymore. To claim otherwise is simply religious. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

>Now *this* is nonsense. "purely for technical reasons" you'd buy the fastest >board available and right now that's cards like the Riva 128, whose native API >*IS* Direct3D, or one of the new Stealths. Yup, what you've written there is nonsense allright. ;-) Sorry, but the NUMBER ONE technical capability of hardware is what software it can run. Furthermore, the RIVA's and Stealths are just *beginning* to catch up to VooDoo1, over a year after it's release. Voodoo2 will kick their asses all over the place for another year. That, combined with the fact that many great games only run on 3dfx cards, makes the original poster's statement exactly right - buying anything other than Voodoo right now is an ignorant choice. I have no sympathy whatsoever for someone who buys a non-3dfx card and then whines that half the games won't run on it. It's not religion, just the basic common sense rules of hardware acquisition. Only if you ignore existing software support (which would be a very ignorant way to choose a piece of hardware). There you go, by your own standards that's obviously 3dfx, if you want to run "any given game". Say, like LongBow2 for example. Or NFS2SE, or any EA Sports title, or JetFighter 3, etc., etc. Getting the point yet? Joe

I was thinking about getting this and even for newgroups and their negative tone, the bad responses surprised me. The demo looks ok, but frame rate is lousy ala monster truck. I have other direct3d games that fly. I am assuming those use native rendition code under d3d. Are there plans to add 3dfx and/or rendition native hooks to improve the rate? I also didn't see tire temp measurements... am I missing something there? I see your list of fixes but being new, I am not sure what some mean... ie I heard that you can't drive in/out of the pits or the pace lap!! Is that what the auto-pilot fix is (getting rid of those?) I am surprised to see a direct response here on a non ms newsgroup, which is great. Especially if the patch is timely. I'll buy it if so. But I'm not falling for buying a game and waiting for the patch that should have been release 1, seems like 1997 was the year for that! Rick

it can run. Furthermore, the RIVA's and Stealths are just *beginning* to catch up to VooDoo1, over a year after it's release.>> Your data is inaccurate. The Voodoo one has been soundly beat by Riva in every benchmark I've seen, and I've seen a bunch. Where is it NOW? Do you have a Voodoo2? Do you know how much one costs? What games use its new capabilities? The ole phrase "voodoo will kick their asses" is the tired old line which betrays you as a blindly loyal 3DFX zealot. They can talk about the Voodoo 3 and you'll just trumpet away. How many games run *only* on 3DFX cards? Can you name some of the top selling games that run only on the 3DFX cards? Take the CGW top 10 in each category. How many of them are 3DFX only? << makes the original poster's statement exactly right - buying anything other than Voodoo right now is an ignorant choice. >> Not if you play NASCAR 2, or if you play SODA, or if you play any other game that doesn't support 3DFX. Sorry, but head to head Voodoo is no longer the technological leader. Voodoo2 will probably be that, but its not out right now. The only ignorance I see being displayed here is the blind 3DFX loyalty that says buy a Voodoo now and lets bury our head in the sand about the fact that there are now faster boards on the market. whines that half the games won't run on it. It's not religion, just the basic common sense rules of hardware acquisition. >> No, its religion. You're deluding yourself if you think there is a sufficiently large # of 3DFX only games to warrant buying one irrespective of any technical advantage another board has over it. way to choose a piece of hardware). Please. As I said, I look forward to seeing your #'s on how many of the top 10 selling PC titles in each category are 3DFX only. "any given game". Say, like LongBow2 for example. Or NFS2SE, or any EA Sports title, or JetFighter 3, etc., etc. Getting the point yet? << Those games run just fine on my Riva 128. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

something kinda like: Gotta disagree here. One of the fundamental mistakes is to purchase hardware based solely upon its specs. You buy the hardware that most effectively lets you run the broadest range of software you want to run. It is a common mistake to buy hardware based on specs, then be limited in the software you can run. 20 years of personal computing and many mistakes have taught me that lesson. Remember the GUS soundcard of a few years ago <g>? One has to look at the software today when buy hardware today. Today, 3Dfx is the winner. 3Dfx can run the hottest software around, such as Longbow 2, NHL98, and several others that are 3Dfx optimized, as well as any D3D software. Will that change to some other card in the future (and what will it be)? Maybe. But the time to buy something else is in the future, when the change has been made, not today. Today the 3Dfx cards are the easy winners. fwiw, jeff lackey

>Your data is inaccurate. The Voodoo one has been soundly beat by Riva in every >benchmark I've seen, and I've seen a bunch. In REAL tests (i.e., running games, not benchmarks) The Riva gas proven to be only slightly faster in D3D. Then again, it achieves this speed by a quality sacrificing, lowering the resolution of textures as they are transferred to the card. At last count, about 40-50. Dozens more in development (hundreds, some people say, but I'm skeptical). LongBow2, Need For Speed 2 SE, NHL 98, Jetfighter 3. That's a list about 2-3 games long. Compared to 40-50 that you can only run with a 3dfx, and dozens more in development. In light of this choosing a non-voodoo card can only be described as ignorant. Speaking of blind ignorance, why do you keep repeating this irrelavent mantra? Given that the speed win of these boards is marginal at best (and usually achieved with a quality sacrifice), and given all these great 3dfx-only games, there is NO other rational choice. Blah blah blah ... you keep saying this as if it has any meaning. If you can't counter an argument with logic, at least have the courage to admit it and take it like a man. Joe

>>Now *this* is nonsense. "purely for technical reasons" you'd buy the fastest >>board available and right now that's cards like the Riva 128, whose native API >Gotta disagree here. One of the fundamental mistakes is to purchase >hardware based solely upon its specs. I agree. However, that's why I put in quotes "purely for technical specs". Thats not the only factor in a decision, but if someone wants to reduce the two boards to that level, Voodoo is no longer king of the hill. You didn't really disagree with what I said. But it doesn't run D3D software all that great, in my opinion. And D3D is the common denominator. The people at nVidia recognized this and made Direct3D *THE* native API for Riva 128. Riva 128 was designed and built FOR Direct3D (If you read their FAQ anyway). I can pretty safely bet that there are more D3D games out there than any native API, so if you have the hottest D3D board, you're not going to lose out. Any publisher today would be nuts not to support D3D, because, technical issues notwithstanding, its the one thing Rendition, nVidia, and 3DFX all run on. Randy

>I can >pretty safely bet that there are more D3D games out there than any >native API, so if you have the hottest D3D board, you're not going to >lose out. You can't run anything that requires 3dFX, but anyone with a 3dFX gets all the D3D games _plus_ the D3D games? I'd call that losing out. Cheers! John

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> >Now *this* is nonsense. "purely for technical reasons" you'd buy the fastest > >board available and right now that's cards like the Riva 128, whose native API > >*IS* Direct3D, or one of the new Stealths. > Yup, what you've written there is nonsense allright. ;-) > Sorry, but the NUMBER ONE technical capability of hardware is what > software it can run. Furthermore, the RIVA's and Stealths are just > *beginning* to catch up to VooDoo1, over a year after it's release. > Voodoo2 will kick their asses all over the place for another year. > That, combined with the fact that many great games only run on 3dfx > cards, makes the original poster's statement exactly right - buying > anything other than Voodoo right now is an ignorant choice.

Thanks, Joe, for explaining what I meant... ;^) I forgot that you have to be very polite and very explicit to be understood in this ng. l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> > Well, if you get all this done, especially the null zone thing, then > >I may just have to go get it. How does this game shape up as an offline > >competition sim. The Zone is good but eliminates the prospects of an > >international comp. Cheers. > FWIW I've had some very good races with both MTM and the CPR demo on > the Zone. Even using dial-up from home here in the UK it was very > playable. > Cheers! > John

Yeah, but against who? I get good performance from people nearby, but typical pings to the U.S. are INXS (RIP Michael Hutchence) of 2000. -- The All-Mighty Lord HOSHUMUNGUS WE, are BORG. YOU, will be ASSIMILATED (if your worthy). RESISTANCE, is FUTILE.

: >> Sorry, but the NUMBER ONE technical capability of hardware is what software : it can run. Furthermore, the RIVA's and Stealths are just *beginning* to catch : up to VooDoo1, over a year after it's release.>> : Your data is inaccurate. The Voodoo one has been soundly beat by Riva in every : benchmark I've seen, and I've seen a bunch. I do have to say, it's interesting how you conveniently chopped the part mentioning the fact you are comparing new cards to something that is a year old. It is ok to compare voodoo2 (early tests) to the precious Riva 128. : >> Voodoo2 will kick their asses all over the place for another year. : Where is it NOW? Do you have a Voodoo2? Do you know how much one costs? What : games use its new capabilities? The ole phrase "voodoo will kick their asses" : is the tired old line which betrays you as a blindly loyal 3DFX zealot. They : can talk about the Voodoo 3 and you'll just trumpet away. Last we heard it was due 1st quarter 98 which isn't that far off and if someone is thinking about buying a 3d card, is it so wrong to mention this and possibly wait until it is out instead of spending the money now on something that will be inferior?

> >Right now it is rather ignorant to buy any other 3D card, and this is purely > for technical reasons... > Now *this* is nonsense. That much I agree with. Sure it is, for a vast number of individual games. Similiarly, other cards/software standards are king of the hill for other individual games. On the contrary, rather than looking at "any given game", one needs to look at the games they personally want to play. Who cares what NHL '98 or CPR looks like if all you want to play is ICR2? Similarly, who cares how ICR2 on Rendition looks if Quake is your taste... Hmm, "to claim other[than what I believe] is simply religious" sounds religious to me. :-) ---Jim

be only slightly faster in D3D. >> Check out: http://www.gamecenter.com/Hardware/Roundup/3dcards2/ss02d.html If a 40% faster frame rate in a game like Terracide (a popular game for Direct3D benchmarking) is just a "slight" increase in speed, I guess its just slightly faster. But 42 fps compared to 30fps is not insignificant. Secondly, if you add AGP to the mix, it becomes an absolute blowout. Is there a 3DFX AGP board out yet? with a 3dfx, >> When I see games I really want to have that ONLY run on a 3DFX, I'll consider buying one. During the last 12-18 months some games have come out that are 3DFX only, but that's changing as more companies are realizing that 3DFX-only is NOT the way to go. Consider that many OEM's such as giants Dell and Gateway, are putting STB Velocity 128's into their systems, and not 3DFX boards. That's a huge market of people who are going to get these boards WITH their systems. Software makers are not ignoring this, and are thus supporting Direct3D. EA and Sierra went different directions. Sierra bet on Rendition, and EA bet on 3DFX (which is why the titles you listed are EA titles). However, even EA is releasing new games with Direct3D support, such as Andretti Racing. They realize that 3DFX only is just going to prevent them from reaching a growing percentage of gamers. A drop in the bucket compared to the Direct3D support out there. ignorant. >> 12 months ago, I'd probably have agreed with you, but today your position is out of step with reality. mantra? Given that the speed win of these boards is marginal at best (and usually achieved with a quality sacrifice), >> As if there are no sacrifices with a 3DFX board? How about 3D acceleration in a window? Higher resolutions than 640x480 which are often either not supported by 3DFX or witness big performance degradation? choice. >> There are plenty of other rational choices. 3DFX got some games during the last year because it was the only really fast card on the block. Now that its got competition and reviews are no longer blindly saying "buy a 3DFX" and large OEM's are shipping out tons of boards based upon different chipsets, its no longer rational to pretend that 3DFX is the only way to go. Besides, most of the competitors for 3DFX are 2d/3d board combos with expansion ports, so if the Voodoo or Voodoo2 are required, that's what the expansion port on those cards is for. Its hardly a dead-end purchase if you can drop a Monster3D in at any time and not lose a bit. After comparing Direct3D games on my STB AGP Velocity 128 to the 3DFX board I have, the 3DFX board now sits on the shelf. can't counter an argument with logic, at least have the courage to admit it and take it like a man. >> Oh...now THERE is a winner of an argument "Take it like a man" (said in deep manly man voice). Get over it. The original post I replied to claimed that the 3DFX was still the performance king and I pointed out that was wrong. Rather than admit I was right about that, suddenly the argument shifts and its "oh, well the Riva 128 only SLIGHTLY wins" (which is also often false), so now we're talking degrees of loss for 3DFX instead of whether or not its the fastest. The reality of the situation is as follows: 1. There are new boards out there that are as fast or faster than the 3DFX. 2. They are shipping in large volume thanks to OEM deals. 3. They support Direct3D and outrun the 3DFX in Direct3D 4. There are more Direct3D games out there, by far, than there are 3DFX only games. 5. The rate of growth of Direct3D growth exceeds that of the growth of 3DFX only games -- by far. 6. Companies which WERE declaring loyalty to 3DFX are now doing Direct3D versions of the same games. 7. The Voodoo 2 is NOT OUT. When it is, it becomes a candidate for this discussion, and not before. 8. The Monster 3D is an add-on board, so its hardly a dead end (or "irrational") to buy a 2D/3D board with an expansion connector in case there's a "gotta have it" 3DFX-only game. 9. Many of the boards that now outperform the 3DFX chipset are also considerably cheaper and add 2D support, support for higher resolutions, 3D acceleration in a window, etc. There's absolutely nothing irrational about passing on the 3DFX chipset and getting one of the faster 2D/3D solutions, at least until Voodoo 2 comes out, at which point it might be worthwhile to switch to that (depending upon its price point, compatibility, etc) Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

religious to me. :-)>> I'm not saying that the board *I* happen to own is the best board. I'm saying that buying a 3DFX is no longer a slam-dunk, and that the people who are looking down their noses at non-3DFX owners are doing so more because of their loyalty to 3DFX than continued technical superiority. I own a Stealth II, a Riva 128, and I have access to a 3DFX board. Right now its the Riva that's in my system because it flat out runs circles around the other two boards. Its also AGP and I'm sure that has something to do with it. I'm not advocating any particular board, or even saying people shouldn't buy a 3DFX. I'm just saying that pretending there is only one reasonable choice in 3D boards is NOT the product of purely rational thought anymore. Maybe a year ago, but not now. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

>buying one. During the last 12-18 months some games have come out that are >3DFX only, but that's changing as more companies are realizing that 3DFX-only >is NOT the way to go. Complete nonsense, and totally contrary to the truth. The best (and largest number) of Glide games have been released in the last two months: LongBow2, NHL98, NBA 98, Need for Speed 2 SE, etc. It's MORE true today than ever, because of the increasing support of the Glide API by the smartest developers (i.e. the ones who want to produce the highest quality software possible). There are not. You keep ignoring the software-support issue, and your conclusion is based in denying the reality of Glide API support. You've provided no rational counter-argument, just this denial of reality - sounds like you're the one with religion. Joe

number) of Glide games have been released in the last two months: LongBow2, NHL98, NBA 98, Need for Speed 2 SE, etc.>> 3 of the 4 you mention are EA titles. I don't know about Longbow. So basically you just keep repeating title names from the same vendor (a vendor which nonetheless made Andretti Racing work with Direct3D and Madden work with DirectX, as does NHL 98) Glide API by the smartest developers (i.e. the ones who want to produce the highest quality software possible).>> ROFL! Lets see...anyone who writes to Glide is "smart". Does that mean that anyone who writes to Direct3D is "dumb"? conclusion is based in denying the reality of Glide API support. You've provided no rational counter-argument, just this denial of reality - sounds like you're the one with religion. >> Sorry, I just don't see it. I see game after game with DirectX or Direct3D support, and only a fraction of them with 3DFX "ONLY" support. You're obviously looking at a different market than I am Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

>3 of the 4 you mention are EA titles. I don't know about Longbow. LongBow2 is probably the best flight simulator ever created. Only available to 3dfx users. There are 35-40 3dfx-only games. I can post the whole list if you're really interested. Joe

Make it 4 for 4. EA also makes LongBow..just checked. Yes I would like the list so I can compare it to what's currently the best selling set of games in each category. Shall I also reply with a complete list of Direct3D games?! :) Btw, Final Reality has a great looking benchmark program that has some game-simulated environments. The Viper 330 and the Elsa board fared very well there, beating the Monster 3D in 3D performance by up to a 40% margin. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

Let me follow up on that some more: Going to EA's site for Longbow 2 you see a FAQ which says: Q: Will you support 3-D hardware acceleration? A: The graphics engine will fully support 3DFX graphics accelerators (compatibility with other accelerators is still being determined). That hardly sounds like its a closed case for 3DFX. Yes, 3DFX is first for EA (they have really latched onto it), but they have NOT closed their minds to other boards, as many 3DFX users have. It won't surprise me at all to see a Direct3D patch up there, and it'll undoubtedly run very fast on the Riva 128's. Go ahead and send me your list of all these exclusive 3DFX games. I'll bet if I visit their web sites, most of them either also offer Direct3D or will be offering it soon as an update. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

Hmm, that's dissapointing. I was a big fan of the original Longbow. Funny, I saw Longbow 2 in the stores today, looked like it was available to all. -- Don Burnette I-65 Racing Dburn on Ten

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>>I can >>pretty safely bet that there are more D3D games out there than any >>native API, so if you have the hottest D3D board, you're not going to >>lose out. >You can't run anything that requires 3dFX, but anyone with a 3dFX gets >all the D3D games _plus_ the D3D games? I'd call that losing out.

The question is how well does it run the games you want to run. If D3D has the games you want, you can run them with a 3DFX, but not nearly as good as say an STB Velocity 128 or a Diamond Viper 330, not to mention the AGP versions. If you want to run almost everything, and don't mind that the performance is going to be less than the best in Direct3D, a 3DFX is a fine choice, but its not the only choice. I go to game site after game site and I see that a lot of the companies that did put out 3DFX specific versions have either delivered or are in the process of delivering a Direct3D version as well, and for some games the Direct3D version precedes or prevents the 3DFX version. Randy

>I do have to say, it's interesting how you conveniently chopped the part >mentioning the fact you are comparing new cards to something that is a >year old. It is ok to compare voodoo2 (early tests) to the precious Riva >128. Show me a Voodoo 2 at retail and then we'll talk. I can show you 4 or 5 Riva 128 boards on the shelves right now. Depends. The Voodoo 2 is likely going to cost over $200 when it ships, compared to the current boards which are far less. Not to mention the fact that you could get a 2D/3D board now and buy a Voodoo 2 for its expansion port early next year if so warranted. That's probably what I'll do. I see no reason to tack a Monster 3D onto the Riva right now. I'd just have to toss it out for the Voodoo 2. Randy

>Complete nonsense, and totally contrary to the truth. The best (and >largest number) of Glide games have been released in the last two >months: LongBow2, NHL98, NBA 98, Need for Speed 2 SE, etc. I can't help noticing you have the same 4 games on the brain, and you always tack an Etc on the end of it. Do you have anything else or is this just a broken record I'm going to hear a lot more of? Randy

The picture quality on the Rendition Verite chips is MUCH better than that of any 3dfx or riva 128 chips!!! Anyone with both can surely attest to this. Loren Team SAVATS

>Make it 4 for 4. EA also makes LongBow..just checked. EA did not in fact make it, Jane's Simulations did, an independent software company (like a lot of EA games, EA just distributes it. The LB2 designers have made it quite clear that LongBow2 could not exist at anything close ot it's current level of quality or speed with any API but Glide. Furthermore, who cares if EA *does* distribute a whole wack of 3dfx games? All the more reason to buy 3dfx - almost every gamer is going to want to play at least one of them, BTW, can you run OpenGL games like Quake 2 on that Riva? I have no interest in such benchmarks, they usually bear very very little resemblance to running real software. Joe

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> >buying one. During the last 12-18 months some games have come out that are > >3DFX only, but that's changing as more companies are realizing that 3DFX-only > >is NOT the way to go. > Complete nonsense, and totally contrary to the truth. The best (and > largest number) of Glide games have been released in the last two > months: LongBow2, NHL98, NBA 98, Need for Speed 2 SE, etc.

...F1RS, just for that sim I'd buy a Voodoo! l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

<snippage> <again> Randy, I currently own an STB LS128 for 2D and a Monster for 3D, do you know how well the Velocity does 2D in comparison to the LS? I saw the Vel at Best Buy and was thinking about maybe getting it and a VooDoo2 when they are released, would this be a good combo? Trev

> Even with D3D sometimes the card isn't compatible (JediKnight, etc..) Can't speak for the STB Riva 128 board, but the Jedi Knight demo looks GREAT on my Viper... it's smooth and beautiful at 800x600x16bpp and that's on a P-133... - Mike. ==================================================== Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"... ====================================================

how well the Velocity does 2D in comparison to the LS? >> There are benchmarks for the 2d performance of this board on www.gamecenter.com, www.gamespot.com, and on a web site called "Final Reality", which makes a really cool benchmark program and evaluates each capability of the product, including 2D. You might find what you're looking for there. I think its plenty fast, but I don't have your LS to compare it to. VooDoo2 when they are released, would this be a good combo? >> I would think so, but it depends upon a few things. First, since my motherboard has only one AGP slot, I'd have the Riva in the AGP slot and the Voodoo 2 in the PCI slot hooked up to the VGA Feature connector of the Riva. If Voodoo 2 comes out and is AGP only, this plan is screwed. I don't think that you can use AGP via the feature connector (I could be wrong). Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

company (like a lot of EA games, EA just distributes it. >> Its still put out under the EA label and EA's been firmly on the 3DFX bandwagon. And where do you find info on LongBow 2? EA's site of course! anything close ot it's current level of quality or speed with any API but Glide.>> And Dean said they got no performance advantage from using Glide. Do you believe everything a vendor tells you? Don't you think that, having invested in Glide, the Longbow team has a reason for dissing all other API's? All the more reason to buy 3dfx - almost every gamer is going to want to play at least one of them, >> I expect to see LB2 come out with Direct3D support soon. Andretti Racing already has it. EA is not going to ignore the fact that, particularly through OEM deals, huge quantities of Riva boards are coming out, and Diamond is grabbing marketshare at the lower end of the scale with the Stealth II and of course the Viper V330. I really don't see EA limiting itself to 3DFX anymore, and their most recent games are showing more and more of that. There are openGL drivers for NT, and OpenGL stuff for Win95 is in development and some alpha of something or another has already shipped out. I'm not in a big hurry for OpenGL. I'd like it (because its pretty well known its better than D3D), but there's not much that uses it right now and Quake 2 is not a high priority game on my list. resemblance to running real software.>> In other words, "I'm not even going to look because my mind is already made up". Go look at the site, Joe. you'll find that 2 of the 3D benchmarks they run very much resemble "real software", as they are complete *** environments, one with mech robots and the other with a Blade-runner style cityscape. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage [link lost in import]

The jury is still out on that one. I've spent some time with it and like it, but as I said, its too early to call. And it runs incredibly fast and looks great in Direct3D, so why should I buy a Voodoo? Until an AGP Voodoo comes out, I'd be willing to put my AGP STB 128 w/ Direct3D against a PCI Voodoo running Glide. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

No. But what this tells me is that for whatever reason MS was not able to program CPR right. I blame the programmers not the API. I believe the other theory that CPR is so dependant on Direct3D that it would be very tough to make a Glide port easily. Plus, how can Rowan make a great Direct3D game out of Flying Corps while MS apparently cannot get it together with CPR? The answer is because Rowan used Direct3D calls which a 3dfx does well. The people programming CPR are apparently clueless on this one. Oh well, personally I would rather see the ramming idiotic AI fixed rather than Glide support. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Randy, the Voodoo2 will be PCI and AGP. AGP is still an "infant" ne need to rush towards it, though you already have, no biggie..; ) Also, if you do get the "AGP" version of the V2, you prolly won't be able to do a "SLI" connection..: ( take care Julian Data ------------------------------------------------------------------ Hungry for NEWSGROUPS??? USE feedME.ORG Read and Post to 30,000 groups through feedME.ORG FREE FREE FREE http://www.feedME.ORG FREE FREE FREE ------------------------------------------------------------------

>Go ahead and send me your list of all these exclusive 3DFX games. Here is a repost of someone's study of all current 3D accelerated games. Makes it quite clear that your beliefs about D3D *** are no where near reality: =======Repost begins:================================ In any case, here were my conclusions (the evaluation accounted for 142 3d accelerated titles, being 116 of these *full* games - the rest were betas, demos, and add-ons): Direct3d is, as expected, the leading API in the market. However, it is not as supported as I expected (slightly more than half of the 3d games rounded up support it - 56,3% if all titles are considered, and 56,9% if only full titles are considered). OpenGL is still just a matter of Quake and Quake II (with the exception of the Bfris demo). Actually, the only other full game that supports OpenGL is Hexen II (there are 4 Quake add-ons in the llist). Despite GLQuake being a heck of a game, and all the promise of so many future GPQuake-a-likes, OpenGL support still is minimal, as far as statistics are concerned (5,6% if all titles are considered, and 2,6% if only full titles are considered). Therefore, native APIs are still responsible for a considerable share of the 3d accelerated market (40,5% of the full games do *not* run under Direct3d or OpenGL, but only under one or more native APIs - statistic that lowers to 38,0% when the non-full titles are considered). Which is bad news for Riva 128 owners, I suppose. As far as native APIs go, 3dfx is the clear winner, offering native Glide support to 43,7% of the 3d accelerated titles (46,6%, if you only consider full titles).Among the 3dfx exclusive titles, one finds: - Jetfighter III - Apache Longbow 2 - F/A 18 Hornet Korea - Extreme *** - Nuclear Strike - Archimedian Dy*** - Uprising - Outlaws - Shadow Warrior - Pandemonium - Pandemonium 2 - Dreams to Reality - Carmageddon (and Splat Pack) - Need for Speed 2 SE - Test Drive 4 - Ignition - NHL 98 - NBA Live 98 - Incubation Joe

>Its still put out under the EA label and EA's been firmly on the 3DFX >bandwagon. And where do you find info on LongBow 2? EA's site of course! Bzzzt, WRONG. And Hollis, highly respect sim designer and LB2 team leader, has been very open about discussing the 3d implementation and choice of 3d APIs on the flight sim newsgroup. You would expect Microsoft to say anything different? Apparently you do, but onlyif the vendor is Microsoft. Don't you think that, having invested in D3D, the MS team has a reason for dissing all other API's? Your expectation will NOT be met. The LB2 developers have made that quite clear. You keep missing the point - EA didn't make these decisions. Independent software developers did. That's why some of their titles have D3D, and some do not. LB2 will NOT have D3D, because it's makers refuse to compromise on quality. They have been quite clear on this point. So Quake 2 is another very popular, high-end you can't run. Ouch! BS. Creating realistic benchmarks is an EXTREMELY advanced "science". It costs HUGE money to do benchmarks properly, and there are about 1,000 mistakes yo can make that totally invalidates "everyday" benchmarks, especially on PC technology where each machine is so different. Joe

actually the Glide quote was from Looking Glass, not Andy.... -Paul

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>>Its still put out under the EA label and EA's been firmly on the 3DFX >>bandwagon. And where do you find info on LongBow 2? EA's site of course! >Bzzzt, WRONG. And Hollis, highly respect sim designer and LB2 team >leader, has been very open about discussing the 3d implementation and >choice of 3d APIs on the flight sim newsgroup. >>And Dean said they got no performance advantage from using Glide. >You would expect Microsoft to say anything different? >>Do you believe everything a vendor tells you? >Apparently you do, but onlyif the vendor is Microsoft. >>Don't you think that, having invested >>in Glide, the Longbow team has a reason for dissing all other API's? >Don't you think that, having invested in D3D, the MS team has a reason >for dissing all other API's? >>I expect to see LB2 come out with Direct3D support soon. >Your expectation will NOT be met. The LB2 developers have made that >quite clear. >>Andretti Racing >>already has it. EA is >You keep missing the point - EA didn't make these decisions. >Independent software developers did. That's why some of their titles >have D3D, and some do not. LB2 will NOT have D3D, because it's makers >refuse to compromise on quality. They have been quite clear on this >point. >>>> BTW, can you run OpenGL games like Quake 2 on that Riva? >>There are openGL drivers for NT, and OpenGL stuff for Win95 is in

development >>and some alpha of something or another has already shipped out. >So Quake 2 is another very popular, high-end you can't run. Ouch! >>up". Go look at the site, Joe. you'll find that 2 of the 3D benchmarks they

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>>run very much resemble "real software", >BS. Creating realistic benchmarks is an EXTREMELY advanced "science". >It costs HUGE money to do benchmarks properly, and there are about >1,000 mistakes yo can make that totally invalidates "everyday" >benchmarks, especially on PC technology where each machine is so >different. >Joe

rush towards it, though you already have, no biggie..; )>> Its not so much that I rushed it but the Dell XPSD300 comes with AGP and an AGP STB Velocity 128. do a "SLI" connection..: ( >> Hm. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

Well, I guess you assume the best about Glide developers and the worst about everyone else. program CPR right. Microsoft did not program CPR. Terminal Reality did. so dependant on Direct3D that it would be very tough to make a Glide port easily.>> I would suggest that if you want programming information concerning CART, you might contact the folks at Terminal Reality, as they coded this one and are closer to the bits & bytes than the guys at Microsoft are (unless I read things wrong). personally I would rather see the ramming idiotic AI fixed rather than Glide support. >> Again, before you presume complete incompetence by TRI, you might contact THEM. Right now, you're making a lot of assumptions about whats true and what's not true. As an engineer myself, if someone were to accuse me indirectly of being incompetent, I'd want them to talk to me first. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

I will reply to this one after I have researched the web sites of the various "exclusives" to see what level of DirectX/Direct3D support they are providing or will be providing. As an example, the developers of Longbow2 are considering other 3D cards right now, according to their own FAQ. That alone should blow a hole in the notion that 3DFX is so *** that these people are 100% committed to it and are equally committed not to support anything else. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage [link lost in import]

Bzzt. RIGHT! I welcome anyone to go to www.ea.com, where they can quickly get to the Longbow pages. And if you look at the web address, its part of ea.com. I didn't say I necessarily believed Dean. Heh heh. If you only knew where I worked... clear. Really? Then why in their FAQ do they state that they are considering other 3D Boards at this time? Independent software developers did. That's why some of their titles have D3D, and some do not. LB2 will NOT have D3D, because it's makers refuse to compromise on quality. They have been quite clear on this point. D3D would be a compromise in quality only based upon which hardware a user had. If the user has a Riva128, its very competitive with Glide and the current generation of 3DFX cards. I can run it, just perhaps not in OpenGL mode. And if I cared, I'd have bought a Monster 3D already. More "I've made up my mind. Don't confuse me with any facts which might contradict my own prejudices". Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage [link lost in import]

>As an example, the developers of Longbow2 are >considering other 3D cards right now, according to their own FAQ. They are investifating other cards, but not through D3D. Your reaching. Today, and for the forseeable future, LongBow2 and games like it will be 3dfx only. Joe

>Bzzt. RIGHT! I welcome anyone to go to www.ea.com, where they can quickly get >to the Longbow pages. And if you look at the web address, its part of ea.com. Did you even read my post? Apparently not, you seem to develop reading comprehension problems whenever facts that don't agree with your preconceived notions are presented. You are looking at the EA web page - marketing information. I've been talking directly to the developer. EA is the DISTRIBUTOR. Not true at all. Andy H was explaining just today how it *wasn't* just a matter of speed, but capabilities the Glide API has that D3D lacks. Even the software-only version of LB2 uses techniques/effects not possible in D3D. That's the whole point - there's dozens of games - several of them "best of breed" - that as of today only run on 3dfx. So we come back to the original inescapable conclusion: buying a non-3dfx board at this point in time is an ignorant puchasing decision. In other words, if one looks at the facts and reality of currently available software, going non-3dfx is simply not logical. Joe

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>>> I saw the Vel at Best Buy and was thinking about maybe getting it and a >VooDoo2 when they are released, would this be a good combo? >I would think so, but it depends upon a few things. First, since my >motherboard has only one AGP slot, I'd have the Riva in the AGP slot and the >Voodoo 2 in the PCI slot hooked up to the VGA Feature connector of the Riva. >If Voodoo 2 comes out and is AGP only, this plan is screwed. I don't think >that you can use AGP via the feature connector (I could be wrong).

As I understand it, the AGP in accordance with Intel specs is not a bus but, as the name implies, a dedicated graphics port, i.e. there will be only one AGPort on mainboards - at least on those boards with Intel chipsets. If the Voodoo 2 is an add-on board too (and I think it is), it wouldn't be very clever if it was released as AGP only. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. wopr"at"stud.uni-sb.de \ There is no "2" in my real e-mail address. Uni des Saarlands \ Sorry for the inconvenience. You know why.

>The question is how well does it run the games you want to run. If >D3D has the games you want, you can run them with a 3DFX, but not >nearly as good as say an STB Velocity 128 or a Diamond Viper 330, not >to mention the AGP versions. "Not nearly as good" hasn't been my experience at all. Cool - if that comes to pass then I'll buy a Riva based card. If that strategy is blown out the water by Voodoo2 I'll buy one of those. The fact is, the best card technically is not necessarily the best card to buy. If GPL is released and happens to be the absolute top sim at that time, I will go with whichever card happens to give the best support to that - if it supports other software I like in addition then that is a bonus. If CPR2 runs on the "Riviera 256" or whatever it may be, and THAT is the ultimate sim, it's a Riviera 256. Perhaps not an industry standard buying technique, but it gets me what I want. Cheers! John

You ask: Why should you buy a Voodoo? While my 3dfx card has provided me with much *** enjoyment over the past year, I don't know or care what you or anyone else buys. If you were satisfied with an EGA card then that would be fine by me. Just as a general comment on many of your posts which are as much trolls as they are indications of a lack of conviction on what you find to be satisfactory. Or maybe you just like to argue.

: >I do have to say, it's interesting how you conveniently chopped the part : >mentioning the fact you are comparing new cards to something that is a : >year old. It is ok to compare voodoo2 (early tests) to the precious Riva : >128. : Show me a Voodoo 2 at retail and then we'll talk. I can show you 4 or : 5 Riva 128 boards on the shelves right now. Well my comment would make more sense if you had quoted farther down. Did you see the recent test results from Brian Hook? Yes, the Riva might be working well for you, but did you not also say you have a PII system? From reading the Riva cards are very cpu dependent. : >Last we heard it was due 1st quarter 98 which isn't that far off and if : >someone is thinking about buying a 3d card, is it so wrong to mention this : >and possibly wait until it is out instead of spending the money now on : >something that will be inferior? : Depends. The Voodoo 2 is likely going to cost over $200 when it : ships, compared to the current boards which are far less. Not to : mention the fact that you could get a 2D/3D board now and buy a Voodoo : 2 for its expansion port early next year if so warranted. That's : probably what I'll do. I see no reason to tack a Monster 3D onto the : Riva right now. I'd just have to toss it out for the Voodoo 2. Yes it's likely to cost over $200 but so did the original Voodoo and look how the price dropped and it dropped quickly. Also, a V2 card is likely to serve someone well for quite some time. I also would not add an M3D onto the Riva card either.

: BTW, can you run OpenGL games like Quake 2 on that Riva? Yes you can, but not nearly as well.

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> >I do have to say, it's interesting how you conveniently chopped the part > >mentioning the fact you are comparing new cards to something that is a > >year old. It is ok to compare voodoo2 (early tests) to the precious Riva > >128. > Show me a Voodoo 2 at retail and then we'll talk. I can show you 4 or > 5 Riva 128 boards on the shelves right now. > Randy

How does the Canopus Pure 3D stack up against the Riva?

board at this point in time is an ignorant puchasing decision. In other words, if one looks at the facts and reality of currently available software, going non-3dfx is simply not logical.>> Sorry, but using the same 4 titles over and over and over and using LongBow as your main point of reference is simply not convincing. Everything I want to play I can play on my Riva 128. Tell me what's illogical about me having a Riva 128? Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

Well, its been mine with both boards. The 3DFX board collects dust and the Riva 128 is in the machine. It simply blows the doors off of the 3DFX card I have, and I'm sure some of that is due to AGP. strategy is blown out the water by Voodoo2 I'll buy one of those. >> I'll probably buy a Voodoo 2 regardless. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

I don't own that the Canopus board so I can't say, but you can go to various benchmark sites (www.gamecenter.com, www.gamespot.com and whatever site Final Reality is at) and see what users have reported or people have tested. I like the Final Reality tests as they build two different game environments (a mech style environment and a blade-runner style environment) and then benchmark those. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

>Sorry, but using the same 4 titles over and over and over and using LongBow as >your main point of reference is simply not convincing. Everything I want to >play I can play on my Riva 128. Did you just get transported back in time a week or something? You seem to have forgotten all about the posts I've sent you since then. I'm not going to answer your same questions over again. Joe

Why back to performance again? That isn't the issue at all. Fact is, with a Rendition and a 3dFX in my machine I can play _anything_ (except of course the illogically titled "Ultimate" Race or whatever it is). With a Riva 128 you can't play accelerated ICR2, N2, SODA, nor any of the Glide only titles. Frankly it doesn't make sense for me to own a Riva 128. I'm sure you and others Riva 128 owners have your own buying reasons which are equally valid, but they don't amount to a hill of beans for me. The Riva 128 could give 300fps in Longbow 2 accompanied by heavenly auras and a hallelujah chorus, but as far as it's in Longbow 2, frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. (Too many old films on TV in the run up to Christmas!). Likewise, if it supports the software I'm interested in. Cheers! John

: >> "Not nearly as good" hasn't been my experience at all. : Well, its been mine with both boards. The 3DFX board collects dust and the : Riva 128 is in the machine. It simply blows the doors off of the 3DFX card I : have, and I'm sure some of that is due to AGP. If I remember you describing your system from a previous post, I think it has more to do with your processor than anything else.

>> I was still looking forward to CPR in a "fixed" and "true accelerated" state, > Do I smell a religion forming here? Is D3D no longer "true" > acceleration? Does the church know about this? BURN THE INFIDELS! > <G> Let me explain a little further. My idea in "true" 3d acceleration is simply when I take for instance ICR2. Non-accelerated may yield say 15-25 fps and look fair but nothing to blow your socks off. Now, I load it with "Rendition" support and see brilliant graphics come alive along with very consistent 30 fps framerates. Now, lets take a more current title ported to a different chipset: UBI F1 on the "Voodoo". I could continue to state further examples: N2, VQuake, GLQuake, TombRaider, NHL 98', JF3, ect... which all just happen to support hdw. acceleration through other obvious means than D3D. Now lets take MTM and CPR both heavily endorsed & published by/through Microsoft and both also being a form of an auto-sim racer using D3D as acceleration support. Hmmm, MTM getting around 20 'ish fps with dips on my P166MMX, 64Meg EDO, Pure3d. CPR getting around 18-30 fps on same system with all extra graphics off including the***pit. My conclusion as to this date, D3D is obviously not yet developed to a point of performance to handle a "racer" at anywhere equal to what can and has been presented by "Rendition" and/or "Glide" support. Just my opinion and I hope the tide turns a bit but I can only present and argue what I have actually experienced so far. True to a point but when the issue I am most frustrated by is getting over the extreme letdown of "fps" consistency and amount in CPR vs.s the gratifying experience I have encountered in UBI F1, the fruit(s) become a much easier choice ;). Ron L. (Please remove the extra letter(s) to respond) Home of the SSC http://www3.pgh.net/~lazer/ For Nascar2 & Winston Cup Fans!

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> Let me explain a little further. My idea in "true" 3d acceleration is > simply when I take for instance ICR2. Non-accelerated may yield say > 15-25 fps and look fair but nothing to blow your socks off. Now, I > load it with "Rendition" support and see brilliant graphics come alive > along with very consistent 30 fps framerates. Now, lets take a more > current title ported to a different chipset: UBI F1 on the "Voodoo". I > could continue to state further examples: N2, VQuake, GLQuake, > TombRaider, NHL 98', JF3, ect... which all just happen to support hdw. > acceleration through other obvious means than D3D. Now lets take MTM > and CPR both heavily endorsed & published by/through Microsoft and > both also being a form of an auto-sim racer using D3D as acceleration > support. Hmmm, MTM getting around 20 'ish fps with dips on my P166MMX, > 64Meg EDO, Pure3d. CPR getting around 18-30 fps on same system with > all extra graphics off including the***pit. My conclusion as to this > date, D3D is obviously not yet developed to a point of performance to > handle a "racer" at anywhere equal to what can and has been presented > by "Rendition" and/or "Glide" support. Just my opinion and I hope the > tide turns a bit but I can only present and argue what I have actually > experienced so far.

Good points about d3d vs Native Ports ... one piece of software that sort of shoots your theory in the foot: MotoRacer. Somenone (Delphine) has cracked the code on d3d programming ...