WHERE IS THE CPR PATCH?????!!!!!!

So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough idea? weeks...months... The longer it takes the more I feel screwed over as a consumer for having to wait so long AFTER I have purchased a game to get the what should have been a completed version from the day it went on sale? Shame on MS and TRI for releasing this game with so many problems and unfinished area. And what was with that ***of the CART team asking so many people to be a beta tester for the patch? That was nothing but a cheap PR move to shut up the people that were really slamming this sim on the newsgroup. Since I agreed to be a so called beta tester, I have not heard a word from them about anything. If I don't see this patch before Christmas then I am going to be very disappointed. Fix the damn AI....better yet make it AI worth talking about. Optimize the FPS, allow users to have different video modes besides 640x480 for accelerated versions. How about 512x384...looks good and runs much better. Get that damn car editor out! I want yellow flags and realistic damage for the single player option!!!!!! And fix that damn AI!!!!!! CPR has great potential to kick some serious butt. It will never happen unless these and many other problems are addressed in a first class manner. Oh did I mention this: FIX THE AI!!!!!! Kas

Kasparov - where did this flame suddenly come from? "... so long AFTER I have purchased a game ..." - the game was released just 2 WEEKS AGO!!! We have always said the patch is slated for a December release - it's only Dec 1st today. TRi are making a build for us this week that, if it passes our acceptance test, will go out to beta testers soon afterwards. If you no longer want to test this then that's fine - we'll remove your name. Email me directly - you know my address - and I'll remove you from the list. And if you want to return the game for a refund that is your free choice. You have been kept in the loop all the way through since the release. If you think this is a "cheap PR move" after all the efforts we have been making to support this game here on ras then so be it. Nothing I can do will convince you. I wonder why the other publishers don't come here any more ... hmmm ...

: So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough : idea? weeks...months... : : Shame on MS and TRI for releasing this game with so many problems and : unfinished area. Wow. Obviously you have a right to complian, but man, where have you been? If you would have even read one post in this group about how bad CPR was you would have saved your money. You remind me of the people that don't watch a race, then read the net and get pissed because somebody didn't use a "spoiler" in the message and they read the results of that same race before they watch it. I'm still waiting for CPR to hit the bargain bin before I fork over my $15. -- -------------------------------------

Kasparov, Why don't you get in a REAL car and take your shitty AI in that tiny brain of yours and drive OVER some of your fellow cry babies on this newsgroup. If you don't like the sim, try this---------get a girlfriend. The sim is being enjoyed by many, many people. The responses and actions by Microsoft and TRI have been quick and professional. I was a Gold winner and have had the game for a month now and can't remember when I've been as impressed by a company's dilligence in it's support of it's product. If I were them, I would of abandoned this newsgroup long ago. Fortunately, there have been many helpful postings, but the majority, and yours, have been a joke. Who the hell are you to rant on at people and make demands. If you don't like it, take it back. Nobody guaranteed you would. That's life. Dave

Congratulations on that well articulated riposte. That United Nations job awaits... The responses by MS/TRI have been quick, but we don't yet know about actions since the results of those haven't yet been seen. Hopefully it's good, but if the patch is scheduled for a December release, it is now December, and the supposed beta-testers haven't yet been contacted then one has to wonder. Will the patch be fully tested? Was the offer to beta-test really genuine? (most people I know who were asked were people who were vocal about their dislike of CPR on the newsgroups, which does force me to wonder if perhaps it was a ruse of some nature? Nothing wrong with that, and I'd do the same myself, but unfortunate if people twig to it). Will it be released in December, and can it address properly everything that was promised? I agree the support has been good, but I must say I don't buy a game because of the support - I would far rather have been impressed by the product itself, and I still await the opportunity to be impressed when the product (finally) reaches the UK and should the patch fix the problems. If you read the adverts or the box the game comes in, there's a fair implication that you are going to like it. Interesting that an entirely different picture can be seen from the newsgroups compared to the reviews compared to the adverts or game box. Anyway, if Dean assures us that the patch will be released in December that's good enough for me. I'm just planning to take cover over on CompuServe if it doesn't attend to all that it is supposed to. Cheers! John

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>Kasparov, >Why don't you get in a REAL car and take your shitty AI in that tiny brain >of yours and drive OVER some of your fellow cry babies on this newsgroup. >If you don't like the sim, try this---------get a girlfriend. > The sim is being enjoyed by many, many people. The responses and actions >by Microsoft and TRI have been quick and professional. I was a Gold winner >and have had the game for a month now and can't remember when I've been as >impressed by a company's dilligence in it's support of it's product. If I >were them, I would of abandoned this newsgroup long ago. Fortunately, there >have been many helpful postings, but the majority, and yours, have been a >joke. >Who the hell are you to rant on at people and make demands. If you don't >like it, take it back. Nobody guaranteed you would. That's life. > Dave >> So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough >> idea? weeks...months...

Dear Lordeth, Forgiveth me for in anger I have judged you harshly. I obeyed thy commandment "thoust shall have a P166 or greater" and yet you still blindeth me to your glorious landscape, at every turn you pusheth me off the path and you keep me bound to the plant of Egypt. I boughteth righteousness and sacrificed many sheep to you - but stilleth you deny me the joy that your 144000 chosen ones have received. Lordeth please forgiveth me and prepare me for your second coming so that I may travel the narrow path and rejoice at seeing you in the clouds.

Listen you idiot, I like to see the game for my opinion not other people's. There have been many times when a bunch of idiots ragged on a game that I felt was really good so I bought it see for myself. I feel I have a right complain since I spent close to 60$ for this game which was only half finished!!!!!!! This is bullshit and how can you argue with that....man you are a sorry SOB. By the way, is this how games are supposed to marketed??? People are supposed to wait until the game reaches the 15$ to purchase it so they feel they got their money's worth? I don't think so. Kas

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>: So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough >: idea? weeks...months... >: >: Shame on MS and TRI for releasing this game with so many problems and >: unfinished area. >Wow. Obviously you have a right to complian, but man, where have you >been? If you would have even read one post in this group about how bad >CPR was you would have saved your money. >You remind me of the people that don't watch a race, then read the net and >get pissed because somebody didn't use a "spoiler" in the message and they >read the results of that same race before they watch it. >I'm still waiting for CPR to hit the bargain bin before I fork over my >$15. >-- >-------------------------------------

Who am I to demand and rant and rave??? I am the consumer who puts the money into these companies pockets!!!! I have a right to complain after spending nearly $60 on this half finished joke. As far as TRI presence on this newsgroup...yes they have been excellent in responding to people's complaints but as afar as I am concerned this whole affair should not even be taking place. This game should not have been released in the state that it is in. Taking people's money and then promising a patch at some point while they are beta testers is not very good marketing. You are just a MS but kisser because you received your gold package. Can you honestly tell me that you are happy with this game? Do you think that it is complete? Do you think that there are only minor problems that really don't affect gameplay much? C'mon man be real! GREAT CUSTOMER SUPPORT IS NOT WHY I PURCHASE A GAME !!!!!! I feel ripped off and I have a right to complain. I just hope that the patch is released real soon and I can start getting my money's worth out of this game because for now it is collecting dust. I do whish to be a beta tester for something that I have already paid for. that is just plain wrong! Kas

Wow, you sure showed him, eh?! ;) Uh...I guess this means a) you like the sim, and b) you don't have a girlfriend? Cheers! Marc

In the words of Yoda "Patience!!" The CART team will release the patch when it is done....from how angry you seem about the current state of the game, I'm amazed that you want them to rush to get it done! When stuff gets rushed, it doesn't end up living up to its full potential. While I agree that CART has some problems, I think if you gave it a chance and approached it again with an open mind, you'd probably enjoy it a little more. I was disappointed with the game when I first played it too...but then I realized that it wasn't because the game was bad...it was because it wasn't exactly what I was expecting. For about half a day, I was like "Man this sucks", but after I had played it some more (and online) I fell in love. YES, the game needs some work, and I'm sure the CART team is working as quickly as they can without sacrificing quality. Thanks for sharing your opinion with us, I always enjoy hearing other people's points of view....but could you please be a little less rude? The people in this newsgroup would respond to the issues you brought up, rather than to the way you flame the CART team and the game. Thanks Mike CART P.R. Playground http://www.msu.edu/user/mcclosk6/cart/cart.htm

>In the words of Yoda >"Patience!!" >The CART team will release the patch when it is done....from how angry you >seem about the current state of the game, I'm amazed that you want them to >rush to get it done! When stuff gets rushed, it doesn't end up living up to >its full potential. This is true, especially when there are serious AI problems that MUST be fixed. Sometimes those are even harder than speeding up the graphics (which is just a matter of work, getting the Glide patch done). Joe

>The responses by MS/TRI have been quick, but we don't yet know about >actions since the results of those haven't yet been seen. Hopefully >it's good, but if the patch is scheduled for a December release, it is >now December, and the supposed beta-testers haven't yet been contacted >then one has to wonder. Dean did mention they were hoping to get the first cut of the patch fromTRI this week. Maybe so, but I *hope* it was more genuine - an attempt to show their harshest critics that they want their feedback and help, and that MS/TRI honestly believes they can satisfy these people. If so that's something I can really respect. Sounds like we'll find out within a week or two, people should be receiving their beta-test versions by then. I'm on that list too, BTW (just hoping the postal strike here in Canada is over before then!). The rumours about a Glide patch give me some confidence that the graphics will be spiffier, but the serious AI problems (e.g., rampant rear-ending) obviously must be fixed too. Joe

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:48:15 -0500, "Kasparov" >So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough >idea? weeks...months... >The longer it takes the more I feel screwed over as a consumer for having to >wait so long AFTER I have purchased a game to get the what should have been >a completed version from the day it went on sale? [whining, crying, ranting snipped] There is a 30 day money back guarantee-- use it. Dan P. _______________ Remove 99 in my address to reply

How the hell am I out of line???? This sim is not finished....IT WAS PLAINLY STATED BY THE PROGRAMMING TEAM...after it was released I might add!!!! The reason why I don't take it back is because I believe there is great potential with this sim like I stated in the original post...uh you must have missed that sentence. My point is I do not like someone taking my money and then giving me a unfinished product that has lots of bugs. I am hoping that the patch puts all this ***to rest. I work in the music business recording and mastering people's original music to be printed on CDs...if I gave people a level of product like CPR is to us, I would out of business in a month. In my line of work you have to be a perfectionist and particular about details and most important of all the finished product has to be FINISHED!!! I guess I can't expect that from the largest goddamn software company in the world. Yes I will admit I am a bit impatient but that does not justify that this sim was released way to early. It is obvious that it has been rushed out because of Christmas....or was it so the public could be beta testers. Now I don't have a problem with testing a program but the CART team should have let the public know that this sim was unfinished and that it might be best to wait till the patch to purchase the game..or better yet, release it when it was done. I am e***d about this game but very upset that they got my money well in advance of me getting a finished product. If you ever felt passionate about anything in your life you would understand. I love autoracing and I love autoracing sims....this was a big letdown for me. And yes, I do have a life....very much so...so don't give me that BS.

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>On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:48:15 -0500, "Kasparov" >>So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough >>idea? weeks...months... >>The longer it takes the more I feel screwed over as a consumer for having

to >>wait so long AFTER I have purchased a game to get the what should have been

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>>a completed version from the day it went on sale? >What a dork... >So tell me, what's keeping you from returning it? If you're so upset, >go get your refund and go back to playing Donkey Kong... >There may be some issues with CPR, but you're way out of line. Your >only saving grace is that this is the place to vent, whether we like >it or not. Too bad I read your post and replied. >Kyle

>>I wonder why the other publishers don't come here any more ... hmmm ... Oh well... :( I understand you feeling. I am one of the only simracer who actually saw this newsgroup transform from a very little place with 5-6 post per day to this grouping of opinions and cons. I still don't know what went into my head a day in 1993 when I and Gerhard Lingenberg started a RFD (request for discussion) into news.groups for a place where people coud discuss about virtual and simulated racing sessions . Heh ! :-) :-( I am with you Randy at 100% . I also realised how great this card was and how some people could bring this chipset into the top. The Velocity is an awesome card, and I hope that more and more people will buy this card if they don't want a 3Dfx card but a 3daccelerated one ! With great respect, May the downforce be with you, Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Fran?ois Mnard, "ymenard" on NROS Team member, Zombie Entreprise Sponsored by AWPSS, http://www.awpss.com/ SimRacing director, AWPSS Official PR, AWPSS Director, The SimRacing Hall-of-Fame Co-director, Light-Speed - *Excuse me for my poor English(I'm French speaking) * -

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:48:15 -0500, "Kasparov" >So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough >idea? weeks...months... >The longer it takes the more I feel screwed over as a consumer for having to >wait so long AFTER I have purchased a game to get the what should have been >a completed version from the day it went on sale? What a dork... So tell me, what's keeping you from returning it? If you're so upset, go get your refund and go back to playing Donkey Kong... There may be some issues with CPR, but you're way out of line. Your only saving grace is that this is the place to vent, whether we like it or not. Too bad I read your post and replied. Kyle

Dean, Stick around. The good outweigh the bad. Just keep this guy off your Christmas list and be nice to the rest of us patient types :) While you're at it, a couple of other notes: 1. Can you do anything to increase the contrast between the track color and the cars? I have never had as difficult a time seeing cars around me as I do in CPR. If it means making the graphics a little more cartoony in terms of the brightness, so be it -- we don't have real-life resolution, and being able to see cars in front and behind you is VERY important. The track is just so dark and the cars are so small you're on top of them before you know they are there. 2. Just WHAT is going on with the Riva 128 board? I know that you guys have said this thing hs driver problems, but it runs other games just fine in Direct3D, including Flight Simulator 98 and Ubi Soft's F1 sim. You guys are the only one that exposes this horrendous flaw in the driver. What gives there? Do you know? And if you DO know, could you either work around it in the patch or call up STB and tell them to get it in gear! :) Cheers, Randy

>How the hell am I out of line???? This sim is not finished....IT WAS PLAINLY >STATED BY THE PROGRAMMING TEAM...after it was released I might add!!!! The >reason why I don't take it back is because I believe there is great >potential with this sim like I stated in the original post...uh you must >have missed that sentence. If you're this angry, take it back for a refund and re-purchase it after everyone here has said how wonderful the patch is. Slamming the people at Microsoft is NOT going to get you what you want. You are so angry because they rushed the product out, and now you are screaming for them to rush the patch! What if they rush the patch and it breaks more than it fixes?! What are you going to scream then? That they should have taken the time to get it right? Regardless of whether you are right or wrong about the timing of the release and the status of the product, its HISTORY now. No one at Microsoft or TR can turn back the clock and do things differently. They are doing the ONLY thing they can do, which is hang out here and listen to what we say (and respond) and have the programmers at TR work as quickly as possible at addressing our concerns. Its amazing how people like you simply can NOT be satisfied. You will scream and *** and moan about how long it takes for something to come out, and then when the developer rushes it out to satisfy demand, the next thing you see is people like you screaming about how it was shipped unfinished, you want a patch to fix everything, and you want it *NOW*! I repeat. Take it back. Life is too short for you to be giving yourself fits over it. I'm sure it will continue to be on sale AFTER its patched. In the meantime, you'll have your money back and hopefully we won't have to listen to any more of your abusive posts. I'm amazed you haven't had a nervous breakdown. What software has been released as a 1.0 that satisfied you in this area? Good. Put on some soft music and relax. Music is your line of work and the realities of your industry are different than the realities of the software industry. For you to try to say that everything should be run the way the music industry is, is complete folly. They are apples and oranges. Let me try again -- take it back if you are unhappy with it. If Microsoft returns your money then your complaint is moot. My guess is you'd rather hold onto it so you can continue to rant and rave here. Oh please. No game is EVER "finished". NASCAR 1 went through the original 1.0 and a couple of updates. Grand Prix 2 sorely needed an update and never got one. IndyCar 2 went through several revisions. Go onto any sports game site and check out the patches, roster updates, AI fixes, multiplayer fixes, etc....I hope you're as zealous in screaming at everyone else as you are Microsoft, or do you simply apply different standards to them. RETURN THE GAME. GET YOUR MONEY BACK AND LAUGH. Sheesh. Yeah, no one else in rec.autos.simulators loves auto racing and is passionate about it. Only you, pal. Randy

First of all I am not angry...just stating my opinions...I repeat opinions. But I am growing tired of the computer game industry releasing games in this manner. No one seems to be acknowledging that I think the game has great potential. However, you are right about nothing changing just because of my ranting and raving....I agree there But man I am not having a fit over this trust me. I never said I wanted the patch to be rushed out. I said if it is not released before Christmas I will be disappointed....I believe there is a difference. No where did I say that I want them to release the patch before it is done...You are not the first one to misunderstand that. Many games have been released at 1.0 that I was happy with. Hell some games were great even in the beta stage. GP2, Nascar 1 and 2, and ICR 2 may have been updated after the releases but hell at least the game was finished for Christ sake when it came out and the AI was well..intelligent. Furthermore I never once ***ed about when this game was going to be released. If anything I was quite surprised when it was released. About a week or two ahead of time....I am patient when it comes to waiting for a game to be released because I believe that games should not be released until they are done. Well this is a trend that is on its way out and that is why I am disappointed. I am going to keep the game and I am going to wait for this patch because I believe in this sim. If the patch does its job then I will be first to congratulate the CPR team and apologize for my complaints....if this patch is a big let down, then I am sure I will not be the only one screaming at that point in time. I remember listening to an realaudio interview with the CART team on the Operation 3dfx website. They talked about this game like it was the the second coming of Christ in the autosim world. They bragged about the AI and the graphics just to name a few...they gave me confidence that I was going to be purchasing a great piece of work. Well this just did not happen like the interview lead you to believe. Kas PS: Thanks for you constructive criticism I do appreciate it....seriously. You were right about a few things...and perhaps over critical with others but so I am about this sim. :) I await the patch....

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> Kasparov - where did this flame suddenly come from? > "... so long AFTER I have purchased a game ..." - the game was released just > 2 WEEKS AGO!!! > We have always said the patch is slated for a December release - it's only > Dec 1st today. > TRi are making a build for us this week that, if it passes our acceptance > test, will go > out to beta testers soon afterwards. > If you no longer want to test this then that's fine - we'll remove your > name. Email me directly > - you know my address - and I'll remove you from the list. > And if you want to return the game for a refund that is your free choice. > You have been kept in the loop all the way through since the release. > If you think this is a "cheap PR move" after all the efforts we have been > making to support > this game here on ras then so be it. Nothing I can do will convince you. > I wonder why the other publishers don't come here any more ... hmmm ... > >So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough > >idea? weeks...months...

[snip -- *** deleted] Dean, I for one am also a little disappointed w/CART in its current incarnation, mostly with Frame Rate and AI. I'm awaiting the GLIDE patch personally (Monster 3d on board) ... but I do recognize that you folks have gone the extra mile to be here and support this title, so I haven't given up on it yet ... Here's hoping that we are all "patched up" real soon ! Doug

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>Kasparov, >Why don't you get in a REAL car and take your shitty AI in that tiny brain >of yours and drive OVER some of your fellow cry babies on this newsgroup. >If you don't like the sim, try this---------get a girlfriend. > The sim is being enjoyed by many, many people. The responses and actions >by Microsoft and TRI have been quick and professional. I was a Gold winner >and have had the game for a month now and can't remember when I've been as >impressed by a company's dilligence in it's support of it's product. If I >were them, I would of abandoned this newsgroup long ago. Fortunately, there >have been many helpful postings, but the majority, and yours, have been a >joke. >Who the hell are you to rant on at people and make demands. If you don't >like it, take it back. Nobody guaranteed you would. That's life. > Dave >> So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough >> idea? weeks...months...

I agree with you Dave 100%. I will gladly wait for a patch, and I am having the Time of my life driving CART right now and I know it will only get better. Keep up the good work CART Team!! The Sandman

>Dean did mention they were hoping to get the first cut of the patch >fromTRI this week. I would say I was looking forward to it, but unless it patches the demo (which I doubt) then I'm afraid it's going to be useless to me since the full game isn't released over here. This is one game I never ordered from the US, since I simply wasn't impressed by many aspects of it (I've since played a friend's copy which he ordered from the US and it confirmed my impression). Still, I do hope that the patch is released soon and addresses the problems, most specifically the AI. Everything else I could probably live with, but the AI makes it totally unplayable IMO. I'd like faster frame-rate, rain tyres fixed, rain grip fixed, yadda, yadda, yadda, but the AI is the killer. I'd guess it's also probably the most difficult thing to patch also. Yes, I'd agree with that, and that was how I received the offer from MS when they asked me. What did spark a little flame was when I exchanged a few e-mails with several other people who had been putting forward negative aspects of CPR on the newsgroup, and found they too had received the same offer. What really made me wonder was when Kas said that he'd never actually received any beta copy, despite the offer and acceptance - that's what made me wonder if it was a damage limitation exercise more than anything else. In any case, why not? I've done that sort of thing myself a number of times in my own job to good effect. I don't know if it was genuine or not, since I was unable to accept the offer. Hah! So if the patch doesn't work we can all have a go at you then? :) Seriously, if you're on the team I know the case will be well made. Give us a good 'un. My feelings also, the AI issues were the main (the only?) thing which rendered the game unplayable. Other things were bad but could be lived with, but AI is the squeaky wheel. Cheers! John Ps - I didn't know you lived in Canada. It must be DAMN cold up there at this time of year. How bad is it? We've got -8 here in Scotland, and I'm already moaning about having to scrape my car twice a day to get to work and back. Nice to know that sim-racing has practical applications in the real world though - I got totally sideway on an ice patch this morning on the way to work, caught and correct the car and continued on my way before I even really realised what was going on! :) I still couldn't describe exactly what I pressed or turned, but it worked. All those sideways moments through Eau Rouge must have done me some good! The frame-rate was pretty excellent as well, although the AI on the highway going to work is AWFUL :)

Gamma correction for cars and tracks (independently) is in the patch. Riva 128 flickering was fixed with a driver update (Diamond?). The problem lies there - the other Riva 128 OEMs need to do the same - we cannot hack at their drivers.

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>>I wonder why the other publishers don't come here any more ... hmmm ... >Dean, >Stick around. The good outweigh the bad. Just keep this guy off your >Christmas list and be nice to the rest of us patient types :) >While you're at it, a couple of other notes: >1. Can you do anything to increase the contrast between the track >color and the cars? I have never had as difficult a time seeing cars >around me as I do in CPR. If it means making the graphics a little >more cartoony in terms of the brightness, so be it -- we don't have >real-life resolution, and being able to see cars in front and behind >you is VERY important. The track is just so dark and the cars are so >small you're on top of them before you know they are there. >2. Just WHAT is going on with the Riva 128 board? I know that you >guys have said this thing hs driver problems, but it runs other games >just fine in Direct3D, including Flight Simulator 98 and Ubi Soft's F1 >sim. You guys are the only one that exposes this horrendous flaw in >the driver. What gives there? Do you know? And if you DO know, could >you either work around it in the patch or call up STB and tell them to >get it in gear! :) >Cheers, >Randy

>Ps - I didn't know you lived in Canada. It must be DAMN cold up there >at this time of year. How bad is it? Fortunately I do not know. ;-) I've lived on the west coast (Vancouver Island) for the last eight years, the one part of Canada that has semi-civilized winters. The last couple days have been sunny and 5-10 degrees (Celcius), dropping down to near zero at night. But that's about as cold as it normally gets here. We're much more likely to get rain than snow in the winter here. We did get a doozy of a snowstorm last year, but that's a once-in-fifty years event. Snow and winter has set in on the rest of the country (I've seen pictures on the news) and it does get very cold - probably ranges from zero to -20 on average, though it can easily drop down to the -30 to -40 range for disturbingly long stretches. Makes me shiver just to think about it! Joe

Geez, Kas, take it easy! So CPR doesn't work right on your computer. These things are bound to happen! Hey, it doesn't work worth a damn on my computer either, but you don't see me flying off the handle. Okay, so MS has released a beta test into production. This is very much in keeping with their marketing department, which has done this on SEVERAL occasions (FS5.0, FS98, Win95, WinNT, shall I go on?). At least MS is getting the patch out in a matter of weeks, instead of former attempts (it took MS fully 7 months to patch FS5.0). Like I said though, if you need someone to blame, write a letter to MS's marketing department. They're the ones pushing this thing out the door half-baked! No programmer in his right mind would send a piece of software with their name all over it out in the state CPR is in! Break out the old copy of Diablo and wait a week until the patch comes out.

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> Listen you idiot, I like to see the game for my opinion not other people's. > There have been many times when a bunch of idiots ragged on a game that I > felt was really good so I bought it see for myself. I feel I have a right > complain since I spent close to 60$ for this game which was only half > finished!!!!!!! This is bullshit and how can you argue with that....man you > are a sorry SOB. By the way, is this how games are supposed to marketed??? > People are supposed to wait until the game reaches the 15$ to purchase it so > they feel they got their money's worth? I don't think so. > Kas > >: So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a rough > >: idea? weeks...months... > >: > >: Shame on MS and TRI for releasing this game with so many problems and > >: unfinished area. > >Wow. Obviously you have a right to complian, but man, where have you > >been? If you would have even read one post in this group about how bad > >CPR was you would have saved your money. > >You remind me of the people that don't watch a race, then read the net and > >get pissed because somebody didn't use a "spoiler" in the message and they > >read the results of that same race before they watch it. > >I'm still waiting for CPR to hit the bargain bin before I fork over my > >$15. > >-- > >-------------------------------------

I would have to say that you are right. I definitely lost my head over this thread. I never intended to start a flame war...hell I didn't really realize my original post was so fired up....I typed it and went to bed. My real whole point of the post was to find out when the patch was expected to be released....I got carried away. Well everyone makes mistakes...I still am disappointed about the current state of the sim but I will control myself better in the future...I kind of surprised myself actually. :) As >Geez, Kas, take it easy! So CPR doesn't work right on your computer. These >things are bound to happen! Hey, it doesn't work worth a damn on my computer >either, but you don't see me flying off the handle. Okay, so MS has released a >beta test into production. This is very much in keeping with their marketing >department, which has done this on SEVERAL occasions (FS5.0, FS98, Win95, WinNT, >shall I go on?). At least MS is getting the patch out in a matter of weeks, >instead of former attempts (it took MS fully 7 months to patch FS5.0). Like I >said though, if you need someone to blame, write a letter to MS's marketing >department. They're the ones pushing this thing out the door half-baked! No >programmer in his right mind would send a piece of software with their name all >over it out in the state CPR is in! Break out the old copy of Diablo and wait a >week until the patch comes out. >> Listen you idiot, I like to see the game for my opinion not other people's. >> There have been many times when a bunch of idiots ragged on a game that I >> felt was really good so I bought it see for myself. I feel I have a right >> complain since I spent close to 60$ for this game which was only half >> finished!!!!!!! This is bullshit and how can you argue with that....man you >> are a sorry SOB. By the way, is this how games are supposed to marketed??? >> People are supposed to wait until the game reaches the 15$ to purchase it so

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>> they feel they got their money's worth? I don't think so. >> Kas >> >: So where the hell is this patch....Anyone from the CART team have a

rough

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>> >: idea? weeks...months... >> >: >> >: Shame on MS and TRI for releasing this game with so many problems and >> >: unfinished area. >> >Wow. Obviously you have a right to complian, but man, where have you >> >been? If you would have even read one post in this group about how bad >> >CPR was you would have saved your money. >> >You remind me of the people that don't watch a race, then read the net

and >> >get pissed because somebody didn't use a "spoiler" in the message and they >> >read the results of that same race before they watch it. >> >I'm still waiting for CPR to hit the bargain bin before I fork over my >> >$15. >> >-- >> >-------------------------------------

Great news! Yes - I can verify that Diamond's current Viper 330 drivers fixed the flicker... (I can only verify this in the demo, but I do know it's fixed in both the AGP version I have at work and the PCI version I have at home...) Oh come on... if you were a real CART fan, you'd say this in proper terms: "we cannot pull a Zanardi." - Mike. ==================================================== Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"... ====================================================

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> No-one can argue that there are some problems with CPR, but since you > are in business for yourself you have to realise that Microsoft cannot > win in this situation. They are in this to make money, we agree on > that? They have a product which they recognise has problems, and it's > coming up to Christmas. Missing the Christmas buying season is > commercial suicide, so they HAVE to release it. If they wait until > after Christmas they also risk bumping into Grand Prix Legends or the > fabled Grand Prix 3 - not healthy for sales. Yes, it should have been > done right, but having recognised that there are problems really there > was nothing else to do. The product being out there, it is then up to > us if we want to buy it.

That's the problem! You defend a software company releasing a half-baked product because of commercial requirements!? Any car producer doing this with a new model will get slaughtered, "Hey, watch that elk!!!!" ;^) l8er ronny -- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Long live El Nino (sp???)...... :-) It's actually sunny in Seattle in December!?!?! -Paul

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>>Ps - I didn't know you lived in Canada. It must be DAMN cold up there >>at this time of year. How bad is it? >Fortunately I do not know. ;-) >I've lived on the west coast (Vancouver Island) for the last eight >years, the one part of Canada that has semi-civilized winters. The >last couple days have been sunny and 5-10 degrees (Celcius), dropping >down to near zero at night. But that's about as cold as it normally >gets here. We're much more likely to get rain than snow in the winter >here. We did get a doozy of a snowstorm last year, but that's a >once-in-fifty years event. >Snow and winter has set in on the rest of the country (I've seen >pictures on the news) and it does get very cold - probably ranges from >zero to -20 on average, though it can easily drop down to the -30 to >-40 range for disturbingly long stretches. Makes me shiver just to >think about it! >Joe

>> we cannot hack at their drivers. >Oh come on... if you were a real CART fan, you'd say this in proper >terms: "we cannot pull a Zanardi." >- Mike. LOL

On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:51:49 -0500, "Kasparov" >It is obvious that it has been rushed out >because of Christmas....or was it so the public could be beta testers. AFAIK you weren't forced to buy the game. If you bought the game without reading a review then you have to accept you are partly to blame for your dissatisfaction. If you read a glowing review and then bought the game in good faith your beef is with the *** review site. No-one can argue that there are some problems with CPR, but since you are in business for yourself you have to realise that Microsoft cannot win in this situation. They are in this to make money, we agree on that? They have a product which they recognise has problems, and it's coming up to Christmas. Missing the Christmas buying season is commercial suicide, so they HAVE to release it. If they wait until after Christmas they also risk bumping into Grand Prix Legends or the fabled Grand Prix 3 - not healthy for sales. Yes, it should have been done right, but having recognised that there are problems really there was nothing else to do. The product being out there, it is then up to us if we want to buy it. The question now is, "will the patch repair the problems and make this the product you expected?". If it does, and in a timely manner, then it's really not too bad. If it doesn't, then some shouting needs to be done. Here too MS/TRI cannot win - give you a patch that doesn't work and they'll be attacked for the bugs, take their time and do it right - they'll be attacked for the delays. Of course it's not right that the game was released with problems, but we've seen that in the past from both Microprose and Papyrus, both of whom had lesser problems but balanced by a longer response time. Knowing that, and seeing the comments here, it's really a case of caveat emptor. You shouldn't have bought it. Cheers! John

>I've lived on the west coast (Vancouver Island) for the last eight >years, the one part of Canada that has semi-civilized winters. Hey, I've been there :) Actually I've been there for about.....oh....30 minutes, stopping over on a flight from Portland to London via Vancouver and Calgary (I think). I was actually visiting Vancouver (WA), which I go to about twice a year. A bit wierd travelling from Vancouver to Vancouver. A friend emigrated there a few years ago, and was _shocked_ at how cold it was. He said he had trouble breathing when he first was over there, as the air was so cold when it hit his throat. Sounds awful. I experienced -25 a few years ago in Norway, and that was waaaaaay too much for me. Scotland doesn't sound so bad all of a sudden! Cheers! John

> First of all I am not angry...just stating my opinions...I repeat >opinions. One thing you should realize is that when you attack a publisher using very insulting tones, you affect everyone else here. After seeing how little companies like Microprose supported GP2 online, I find it to be a welcome change that the reps are here listening and helping out wherever they can. The best thing you can do is be constructive. The only thing you do by being abusive is drive the reps off of Usenet, and then we ALL get support-starved. So please consider the possible consequences of your actions. Finally, your goal is either to vent your anger and frustration, or it is to convince Microsoft to do something other than what they are currently doing. If it is to vent, see the above. If its the latter, angry posts make NO difference. The only thing you'll get from getting all angry and upset is hostility or apathy back. I suggest you try being a LITTLE more constructive and I think you'll find that it works better than being abusive, and you have a much better chance to get what you want. Here's the software industry's dirty secret: Software is NEVER done. It simply approaches a point to where what's undone and what's not working properly becomes sufficiently minor to warrant shipping the product. The TR people could have gone on indefinitely adding features, working on the AI, etc but at a certain point someone made the decision to ship. Obviously, many people here feel they made that call too early. So be it. Lesson learned. But waiting til software is done means you never get any software. You simply do the best you can within the constraints of the schedule you have and try to produce the best product you can. Its quite possible prioritizing some things caused other, important things to be neglected until it was too late to do anything about them for 1.0. You register your opposition to that version by not buying it. Companies DO notice a lack of revenue, and seeing returns coming back to them is a strong message. It costs the retailer and the publisher money to deal with returns. You get all your money back. Welcome to PR-land. Randy

Have you communicated this to STB? I talked to their support staff today and they knew nothing. I also e-mailed them and received a somewhat indignant response wondering why their drivers passed WHQL certification (whatever that is) if they had these kinds of bugs in them. Oh well, the Diamond drivers do not work on the Velocity (unless someone can help me make it work), and so if you guys know what STB and Diamond did wrong in the drivers, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE pick up the phone and let them know so that all the Riva owners can run CART (bear in mind the number of Riva owners is growing FAST, as its now the standard board shipped on every Dell Dimension computer, )as well as Micron) and is also running away with a lot of awards in the reviews). Randy

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> >I've lived on the west coast (Vancouver Island) for the last eight > >years, the one part of Canada that has semi-civilized winters. > Hey, I've been there :) > Actually I've been there for about.....oh....30 minutes, stopping over > on a flight from Portland to London via Vancouver and Calgary (I > think). I was actually visiting Vancouver (WA), which I go to about > twice a year. A bit wierd travelling from Vancouver to Vancouver. > >Snow and winter has set in on the rest of the country (I've seen > >pictures on the news) and it does get very cold - probably ranges from > >zero to -20 on average, though it can easily drop down to the -30 to > >-40 range for disturbingly long stretches. Makes me shiver just to > >think about it! > A friend emigrated there a few years ago, and was _shocked_ at how > cold it was. He said he had trouble breathing when he first was over > there, as the air was so cold when it hit his throat. Sounds awful. I > experienced -25 a few years ago in Norway, and that was waaaaaay too > much for me. Scotland doesn't sound so bad all of a sudden! > Cheers! > John

Hey John Next time you plan to visit Norway, let me know and we can meet for a few(?) beers(or something) and tell some lies about racing. And yes the snow has arrived here in southern Norway as well; damn those low profile tyres don`t have much traction these days :-) Beers and cheers Goy

>>Gamma correction for cars and tracks (independently) is in the patch. >>Riva 128 flickering was fixed with a driver update (Diamond?). The problem >>lies there - the other Riva 128 OEMs need to do the same - we cannot hack at >>their drivers. >Have you communicated this to STB? I talked to their support staff >today and they knew nothing. I own a STB Velocity 128 AGP and have the same problem. I have been in touch with Alf Covey at STB. He hangs around a lot in the comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video newsgroup. The day after he received my e-mail, he downloaded the demo version of CART and recreated the problem there. He put me on his list to notify when the problem is resolved. About two weeks later, Diamond came out with a new version of their drivers (this problem was common to all RIVA based cards) that fixed the problem for Diamond cards. I tried to use the Diamond drivers on my STB but no luck. I wrote this to Alf and he said that since Diamond had fixed it, the fix was part of the base code they both get from the makers of the RIVA chip and that it would be incorporated in the next version of driver released. Since then they have released the certified version of the 1.21 drivers. But, this did not change from the uncertified version of the 1.21. At least not as far as this problem with CART is concerned. Anyway, a STB rep at Comdex said they were coming out with a new version of drivers 'in a few weeks.' I'm still waiting and am tempted to write Alf again to get a status update. If I hear anything more, I'll post it here. He's always been very helpful. Its primarily because of his presence in that video hardware newsgroup that I decided to buy the STB over the Diamond card. Like the Microsoft/Terminal Reality people, I think we should recognise and support those vendors who care enough to be here in spite of those malcontents who choose to abuse the direct line of communication.

Randy, Thanks for not being as crazy as I have been. Your comments have been constructive. I must appologize to the newgroup for my insensitivity. I did not intend for my original post to be so out of hand. I didn't realize that I was speaking in such a insulting tone but you are right. Yes I have become frustrated with the sim only becuase I feel it has great potential. However, my comments were no thought out and on the rude side and I am sorry for the newsgroup and the CART team. I just lost my head and then I lost it even more trying to defend myself. After a couple days of thinking ot over, I realize my mistakes. Once again thanks for not being as rude as I have been. I await the patch and I hope it kicks some butt. I will not blow up again....I promise. These newgroups are too important to me. Kasparov

Damn: Relax

On Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:58:26 +0100, Ronald Stoehr >That's the problem! You defend a software company releasing a half-baked >product because of commercial requirements!? Any car producer doing this >with a new model will get slaughtered, "Hey, watch that elk!!!!" ;^) I don't think Mercedes have to worry about the christmas buying season though Ronnie, and they really were unaware of the instability it seems. As for releasing a half-baked product, you make the same mistake that many people do in assuming that they are doing this in order to provide a great sim. Software companies are here to make money, and while you or I might have waited and released a better product later, commercially that is not an option. We might not like that solution, but that won't make it go away since there is no other option. All we can do is complain, to make it less likely to happen, and to ensure that any projects that do get released like that are patched a.s.a.p. With MS/TRI that seems to be the case, so while I dislike the original product, I have to respect their attitude in responding to the problem, or at least to look like they are responding to the problem. On that subject, I liked the Trabbie advert that came out afterwards. Nice work by those Trabbie marketing guys :) Cheers! John

>Next time you plan to visit Norway, let me know and we can meet for a >few(?) beers(or something) and tell some lies about racing. And yes the >snow has arrived here in southern Norway as well; damn those low profile >tyres don`t have much traction these days :-) Hi Goy, I used to visit Norway about twice per year, since a part of job at that time involved contractual negotiations with various nuclear reactors, I.F.E. at Kjeller near Oslo being one of them. Unfortunately I don't do that anymore - I'm happy I don't have to visit reactors, but sorry I don't get to visit Norway. It's an absolutely top country, and one that I would strongly recommend to anyone. Very picturesque, and amazingly hot in summertime. I'd always planned to take my girlfriend back there for a holiday sometime, so I'll see if I can pack my TSW and a few Scottish beers into my bag without her noticing ;-) Cheers! John PS - Very appropriate ISP! "arctic.no" :)

>somewhat indignant response wondering why their drivers passed WHQL >certification (whatever that is) if they had these kinds of bugs in >them. The guy who used to be head of DirectX (who know writes for Boot magazine) said that almost all 'MS certified' drivers still had at least 10 major bugs in them . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This space intentionally left blank

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> Thanks for not being as crazy as I have been. Your comments have been >constructive. I must appologize to the newgroup for my insensitivity. I >did not intend for my original post to be so out of hand. I didn't realize >that I was speaking in such a insulting tone but you are right. Yes I have >become frustrated with the sim only becuase I feel it has great potential. >However, my comments were no thought out and on the rude side and I am sorry >for the newsgroup and the CART team. I just lost my head and then I lost it >even more trying to defend myself. After a couple days of thinking ot over, >I realize my mistakes. Once again thanks for not being as rude as I have >been. I await the patch and I hope it kicks some butt. I will not blow up >again....I promise. These newgroups are too important to me.

I don't want to turn the group into an AA meeting, but I think this apology warrants an applause. Well done, Kaz! It takes something to realize one went too far, and it takes even more to publicly admit it. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. wopr"at"stud.uni-sb.de \ There is no "2" in my real e-mail address. Uni des Saarlands \ Sorry for the inconvenience. You know why.

> On Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:58:26 +0100, Ronald Stoehr > On that subject, I liked the Trabbie advert that came out afterwards. > Nice work by those Trabbie marketing guys :) I missed it. What medium was the ad? ---Jim

It was here in Europe, either on TV or in the papers (I read an article about the ads, tacked onto the end of an article about the amazing somersaulting baby Merc). The Trabant ad was released on the back of the Mercedes furore, and showed the Trabant succesfully completing the famed "elk test", with the headline "Come and get us Moose!", or something of that nature. Quick work I thought. Even better if they could have showed an upside down baby-Merc in the background, but we're not allowed to do that sort of thing! Cheers! John

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>>I missed it. What medium was the ad? >It was here in Europe, either on TV or in the papers (I read an >article about the ads, tacked onto the end of an article about the >amazing somersaulting baby Merc). >The Trabant ad was released on the back of the Mercedes furore, and >showed the Trabant succesfully completing the famed "elk test", with >the headline "Come and get us Moose!", or something of that nature. >Quick work I thought. Even better if they could have showed an upside >down baby-Merc in the background, but we're not allowed to do that >sort of thing!

John, are you sure this was a bona-fide Trabant ad? I'm asking since I seem to remember that the production of these cars was stopped several years ago. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. wopr"at"stud.uni-sb.de \ There is no "2" in my real e-mail address. Uni des Saarlands \ Sorry for the inconvenience. You know why.

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>No-one can argue that there are some problems with CPR, but since you >are in business for yourself you have to realise that Microsoft cannot >win in this situation. They are in this to make money, we agree on >that? They have a product which they recognise has problems, and it's >coming up to Christmas. Missing the Christmas buying season is >commercial suicide, so they HAVE to release it. If they wait until >after Christmas they also risk bumping into Grand Prix Legends or the >fabled Grand Prix 3 - not healthy for sales. Yes, it should have been >done right, but having recognised that there are problems really there >was nothing else to do. The product being out there, it is then up to >us if we want to buy it.

This certainly is the reality of the situation,but it is still wrong. Microsoft still has the responsibility to release and thus sell us a product which lives up to their advertised hipe,which unfortunately it didn't. I bough the sim after reading the reviews and trying out the demo. Fortunately for me,Comp USA will take back opened software within 30 days for credit or cash if you insist on it ,so I had nothing to loose. And this is the only reason that I bought CPR now. What I found was an inferior product to ICR2. So I returned it to the store as I mentioned ina previous post. I will consider purchasing it again after reading the reviews of the patch and trying out the new demo. But one of the things that I still can't understand is why they aren't addressing the very real problem of no yellow flags.Many have posted to this newsgroup that this is one of the major faults of the sim,yet they are not addressing this problem. This is the catch 22 problem that they caused not us. We are entitled to a product that works as advertised when we purchase it,not after they get a chance to fix it. Especially when they had Icr2 and Nascar2 to use as a benchmark. Yes ICR2 needed a patch to address certain problems,but the sim worked pretty good out of the box,which CPR doesn't do,. Regards, Joel Willstein