I have been lurking in this news group for about 2 years now. Mostly here
to get information on Setups, Patches, Car Sets etc...
Not very often do I let my opinion be known, but I have an urge to let it
be known right now.
I haven't been in here (R.A.S) for a while, and I just checked in to see
what's up, and happened to come across the flames to Micheal Carver and
Papyrus.
When it comes to Racing Sims, I'm ***ed. I have bought almost every
Racing Sim (and yes I have EVERY sim Papyrus has produced) that has ever
come out. I've seen some crappy ones, and I've seen some good ones, and as
far as I'm concerned, not anyone can touch Papyrus when it comes to making
a racing SIM. For that reason, I don't even question a Papyrus SIM when it
becomes available, I just buy it.
For all of you who have a problem with the products not being delivered on
time or not being 100% bug free... Hey! Welcome to the real world. I
too am a developer and let me tell you, it is not an easy thing to estimate
when a product will become avialable with so many unknowns, and changes in
technology. You take your best shot at when it'll be ready, and go ahead
and tell the public, and guess what? Sometimes you don't make it. But 99
times out of 100 I would rather wait and get a better product than have
developers rush and cut corners to deliver inferior product.
And let me ask all you who are doing the complaining... Are you still
playing??? I would take a chance and say that you are, because there are
no better sims out there.
Dean
PAPY RULZES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I fundementally agree with what you are saying. I tend to advocate a
company like Papyrus that generally does a good job with their products.
However, much of the complaining is not unwarranted. Papyrus - like all
other software companies - tend to focus efforts where money can be made -
in leiu of addressing problems and/or limitations with the existing
products. We all know that N2 still lacks several fundemental pieces that
basically make racing 100% races against the artificial cars impossible. I
figure that another small incremental effort is required to make this sim
truly enjoyable. Some intelligence in the AI is probably number 1. This
almost but not quite implementation gets a lot of sim racers very frustrated
and thereby cause them to pursue an outlet - yes - a flame on this
newsgroup. This does not mean that they dislike N2 or other Papyrus
products or that they will never use them or buy them again. It does mean
that these people (paying customers) are very frustrated that these racing
simulations are almost - but not quite finished. I think the voice of these
people should matter since loyalty in ones customer base if very important.
/TomH
Well put my friend.
Lee
>And let me ask all you who are doing the complaining... Are you still
>playing???
No. Got tired of the frame-rate, waiting for 3dfx patches. (SODA I
haven't bought yet, though I will when the 3dfx patch is relased.)
Joe
>I fundementally agree with what you are saying. I tend to advocate a
>company like Papyrus that generally does a good job with their products.
>However, much of the complaining is not unwarranted.
Precisely. And when the "complaining" is not unwarranted (i.e., they
are real, detailed complaints, not generic "It SUX!" mesages) they are
doing a SERVICE to both other gamers (by pressuring for better games)
and to the developer (by telling them what we want). If everyone
listened to these goody-two-shoes who seem to think it's a sin to ever
complain about anything, then nothing would ever improve.
Joe
(snip)
Papyrus - like all
other software companies - tend to focus efforts where money can be made -
(unsnip)
Show me a businessman who doesn't focus efforts where money can be made and
I'll show you a future bankrupt.
--
Bruce.
"I envy people who drink. At least they have something to blame everything
on."
(Oscar Levant)
I am also here mainly for setups, patches, individual cars and websites
that are related to Nascar 2. I read most of the postings articles (good or
bad) that are related Nascar 2 but I am finally going to respond since I am
also in the software industry.
It is true that Nascar 2 does have its bugs but these bugs are NOT stopping
me from enjoying a race. What really gets me is what people consider a bug?
When Winston Cup went to double file restarts and Nascar 2 still had single
file restarts some people were posting this as a bug. This is NOT A BUG.
Just because a product doesn't do what you want it to do it doesn't mean it
is a bug or the product sucks. I have never seen a piece of software that
was bug free or would do everything that I would like it to do, that is why
they have versions which address bugs and enhancements requests. I have
seen some postings that request that you have the ability to drive to
Victory Lane or be able to drive to the garage, I would rather see Papyrus
spend time fixing the current bugs that they do have, instead of adding
these requests.
I have seen postings flaming Papyrus for being late with their release
date, I would rather see the release date pushed back so they can fix the
bugs that they do find.
No matter how much a product is tested, they will never find all the bugs,
due to the fact that it is impossible to replicate every environment out
there.
Papyrus is the best race sim on the market today, I have purchased IndyCar
1& 2 and Nascar 1& 2 and the expansion packs and I am satisfied with the
product. I wait for the patches to come out which address some of the
problems and continue on racing.
I would like to thank some of the employees that work for Papyrus from
helping out with answering some of the questions that are posted in the
newsgroup on there own time. It shows that they care about their product
and what you have to say. I would also like thank the people who have
designed cars, put up track settings, websites, and utilities for Nascar
Racing. It has made the game more enjoyable.
For all the people that claim the product sucks or hate the product I have
some helpful advice for:
1. DONT PLAY IT,
2. Get the original box the product came in and put the software back in
the box and return it. So we don't have to listen to you complain.
3. If you think you can do better, program your own racing sim, but wait
What tracks will we race at? you don't have any of the rights to any of
the tracks
so good luck.
Point taken, score one for Joe and Bruce. I hope that you are right, and
that Papyrus is smart enough to use the constructive feedback that is in
here. And I will make an ammendment to my original post to state: " I
too sometimes get frustrated with some of the problems (mostly AI related),
but hey, I still love it."
Dean
Quoted text (12 lines)
> >I fundementally agree with what you are saying. I tend to advocate a > >company like Papyrus that generally does a good job with their products. > >However, much of the complaining is not unwarranted. > Precisely. And when the "complaining" is not unwarranted (i.e., they > are real, detailed complaints, not generic "It SUX!" mesages) they are > doing a SERVICE to both other gamers (by pressuring for better games) > and to the developer (by telling them what we want). If everyone > listened to these goody-two-shoes who seem to think it's a sin to ever > complain about anything, then nothing would ever improve. > Joe>Point taken, score one for Joe and Bruce. I hope that you are right, and
>that Papyrus is smart enough to use the constructive feedback that is in
>here.
Well, to their credit I think they probably have, and the 3dfx
patches/support will be coming, albeit a bit slowly.
Joe
I've yet to see any "goody two shoes" who think it's wrong to
complain. I have however seen quite a few people that wish folks would
engage their brain before their mouth, and yet mnore people who wish
that people would offer something constructive and in a civil manner.
That's not directed at you, just a general comment. We've seen
developers around here less and less, and that must be due in large
part to the grief that they get. There's nothing wrong with making
your feelings known, but flaming someone for trying to help by
offering a delivery estimate will serve only to make sure they never
try to help in future. Telling a company that a game "sucks" is worse
than useless.
Nothing wrong with complaining when it's warranted, but just try to
imagine that you're sitting in a pub chatting with the guy. Imagine
somebody in that situation telling you that the result of your last
two years effort "sucks"? Why should communicating via usenet be any
different?
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (16 lines)
>I've yet to see any "goody two shoes" who think it's wrong to >complain. I have however seen quite a few people that wish folks would >engage their brain before their mouth, and yet mnore people who wish >that people would offer something constructive and in a civil manner. >That's not directed at you, just a general comment. We've seen >developers around here less and less, and that must be due in large >part to the grief that they get. There's nothing wrong with making >your feelings known, but flaming someone for trying to help by >offering a delivery estimate will serve only to make sure they never >try to help in future. Telling a company that a game "sucks" is worse >than useless. >Nothing wrong with complaining when it's warranted, but just try to >imagine that you're sitting in a pub chatting with the guy. Imagine >somebody in that situation telling you that the result of your last >two years effort "sucks"? Why should communicating via usenet be any >different?>But hardly anyone has been making these kinds of statements about
>Papyrus (maybe one or two kids posts out of thousands - way tamer than
>on most newsgroups).
No "defence" of Papyrus, I was speaking generally - MS/TRI,
Microprose, Psygnosis, whoever. I've seen plenty of "CPR sucks"
messages, which are not only totally useless in terms of giving
information to developers of what they should be fixing, but totally
wrong. It doesn't "suck", just needs some attention is specific areas.
Actually here it is generally more sane than some other newsgroups,
but since I am also participating over on CompuServe in the Sports
Sims forum, I can't help but compare and contrast. This place is
jungle-like compared to the measured comments more common there.
Cheers!
John
Speaking as one of the team who reads each posting to decide what we should
and
should not consider for implementation, it goes without saying that any
posting that
has a clear agenda to discredit a product, publisher or dev team for no
reason other
than taking cheap shots immediately discounts itself from any further
consideration.
I don't suppose anyone who submits a posting entitled "XYZ SUX!" really
cares if
the dev team read their nonsense or not. But if you do want to make a
contribution to
this newsgroup and feel that you are helping to raise the quality bar
further in your
favorite simulation category then a balanced assessment of what you like and
dislike goes a long way to getting your posting printed out and discussed
during
the next team meeting. And acted on.
And to your point about publishers not visiting r.a.s. any more - I can
totally understand
this. It is extremely hard work sometimes*** around here to read the
bizarre
"MS *** theory" threads and cheap shots posted here. It is the few
constructive
postings that keep us coming back - a nugget of insight here can make all
the
difference as we decide what to do next.
Anyway, this posting isn't going to make a bit of difference to the vocal
minority
of generic bashers (I notice the flames have moved on from CPR and onto the
next victim already - they have my sympathy).
But if you wonder why your voice isn't being heard or heeded - think about
your
message.
Quoted text (29 lines)
>> Precisely. And when the "complaining" is not unwarranted (i.e., they >> are real, detailed complaints, not generic "It SUX!" mesages) they are >> doing a SERVICE to both other gamers (by pressuring for better games) >> and to the developer (by telling them what we want). If everyone >> listened to these goody-two-shoes who seem to think it's a sin to ever >> complain about anything, then nothing would ever improve. >I've yet to see any "goody two shoes" who think it's wrong to >complain. I have however seen quite a few people that wish folks would >engage their brain before their mouth, and yet mnore people who wish >that people would offer something constructive and in a civil manner. >That's not directed at you, just a general comment. We've seen >developers around here less and less, and that must be due in large >part to the grief that they get. There's nothing wrong with making >your feelings known, but flaming someone for trying to help by >offering a delivery estimate will serve only to make sure they never >try to help in future. Telling a company that a game "sucks" is worse >than useless. >Nothing wrong with complaining when it's warranted, but just try to >imagine that you're sitting in a pub chatting with the guy. Imagine >somebody in that situation telling you that the result of your last >two years effort "sucks"? Why should communicating via usenet be any >different? >Cheers! >John >.>Actually here it is generally more sane than some other newsgroups,
>but since I am also participating over on CompuServe in the Sports
>Sims forum, I can't help but compare and contrast. This place is
>jungle-like compared to the measured comments more common there.
I don't doubt it, the "civility standards" of CIS have always been
higher than newsgroups. Probably in part because it's more expensive
(at least it used to be) so there's a lot less kids there.
Joe
I agree.
There usually is more of this surrounding the hype (and sometimes
over-expactations?) of new products. I hope you don't let it get to
you. I appreciate your presense and feedback here on this forum.
Joe
I agree - that was my point - hence "like all other software companies". I
am only pointing out that this mentality often frustrates existing
customers who are looking for fixes.
/TomH
On Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:37:04 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)"
>Anyway, this posting isn't going to make a bit of difference to the vocal
>minority of generic bashers (I notice the flames have moved on from CPR
>and onto the next victim already - they have my sympathy).
Yes, I would agree pretty much with what you said. I do however think
it is dangerous to assume that because people move on to another
product that means they are "generic bashers". Eventually pretty much
everything has been said about a product, and a new one comes along
(in this case F1RS and Andretti Racing) to capture people's attention
and with issues for discussion and opinions for exchanging. That in
itself doesn't change anything about, in this case, CPR - only you
guys can do that with the quality of the patch.
Best Regards,
John
