Cart Precision Racing Review

Not "lies", just different experiences from yours. As you can tell from (some!) postings here and other sources, your experience is not necessarily representative of everyone else's. Many people have already bought CPR (it is selling extremely well) and are enjoying it immensely - we are getting lots of positive email to that effect. More "***" users like yourself have pointed problems from your perspective with the game that we are working hard to address in the upcoming patch ASAP. Your opinion and views are valid - that's why we are releasing the patch - but not everyone evaluates a product using the same criteria.

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>This review is such bullshit......it says that the framerates are liquid >smooth among many other lies! >The CART team better get this stuff taken care of soon before word of mouth >does them in. >>[link lost in import]

Another great review! It does a much better job of saying what I've been trying to relay for the past two weeks. The best part is the sim will only get better. DmndDave

Now some people will say I'm biased and there is M$ behind this comment, but for me my P133 with Monster 3D runs fine with all settings turned off except dash and graphics setting to good. Even at this setting the graphics are great. With the patch I hope to turn on some more settings and get even more eye candy. Not everyone who is satisfied with the framerates are running P2 300MhZ machines. Thanks John The APEX [link lost in import: /~joja] >Maybe you are right but the only people that I have seen reporting smooth >framerates here were people with Pentium2 300 MHz machines or overclocked >machines. I have a Pentium classic 200Mhz with a excellent motherboard and >plenty of system memory. I also use a Monster 3d. Getting an average of >9-12 FPS with the***pit on is pretty darn sad with my machine. All my >other games run very smooth including other D3D titles.

>Maybe you are right but the only people that I have seen reporting smooth >framerates here were people with Pentium2 300 MHz machines or overclocked >machines. I have a Pentium classic 200Mhz with a excellent motherboard and >plenty of system memory. I also use a Monster 3d. Getting an average of >9-12 FPS with the***pit on is pretty darn sad with my machine. All my >other games run very smooth including other D3D titles. Well, I have a machine very similar to yours: 200MHz (with mmx though) and a Monster 3D. I get somewhere around 22-28 fps, depending on all the variables. I consider that frame rate to be "reasonably smooth". I play with all graphics options maxed except: mirror set to cars only, sky off, steering wheel off, clipping distance set to 18, graphics quality set to "better". My frame rate is more than double what yours is, even though we have similar machines. There must be a reason for the disparity, although I don't know what it could be. Jim Getzen Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ http://members.home.net/getzen/

Yeah, I loved the way it praised the AI - _very_ objective. For anyone who wants to read a fair and measured review of MS-CART Precision Racing, head to Digital Sportspage and read the review by Randy Magruder. By far the most reasoned and objective review I've read of CART. Most other sites review MS-CART from an arcade perspective, but if you're looking for a sim they tell you nothing. Cheers! John

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:05:02 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)" >>>I fear the people who like the game are under-represented on this forum. >>Hint: that's not a good sign. > The game is selling very well. Not too surprising really; after all Joe Public doesn't want a true sim, he wants something that allows him to pretend to be a Zanardi or Andretti with little effort. But you will find a higher than average proportion of people on r.a.s who do want a true sim. CPR is a very good first attempt and a lot of fun, but unfortunately the demo, at least, doesn't stand up to too much close scrutiny at present. If sales volume is your only measure of what is a good sim then your comment is understandable, but.... Cheers, Richard

> I fear the people who like the game are under-represented on this forum. Dean, perhaps there are many who like the game, but are hesitant to say so for fear of criticism. As usual the critics are always the most vocal, but they are not necessarily the majority. Unfortunately, many of CPR's supporters tend only to say enlightening things like "CART Rocks!". I find the Trial Version entertaining to say the least. I like the feeling of speed, and I'm generally okay with the physics of the game. I agree with what another poster said about CPR feeling more like a go-cart than a race car, but I'm okay with that. CPR has even affected my enjoyment of ICR2, as it's magnified the flaws I've felt about ICR2's handling...now it feels "mushy", particularly at slower speeds. NOTE: I just installed the newly released drivers for my Flash 3D Voodoo card and saw a jump in framerates. With the graphics options I have selected (hardware acceleration on, all detail off, including***pit) I'm now seeing FPS into the 30's, but generally in the high 20's on my P133/64Mb. With the***pit on, the frame counter hangs around 20. Any way you can implement mirrors with the***pit OFF? -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

>It always disturbs me when I see developers going out of their way to >justify/contradict negative feedback. It's the kind of attitude that >prevents real problems from being addressed in the future. >Joe I don't really think that Microsofts goal in participating in this newsgroup is simply to make everyone think their game is the greatest thing since sliced bread. In the postings I've read, they've always kept a level head and attempted to address the questions/problems the author of the post has, even if the author is flaming the hell out of the game. It seems to me that there are lots of "real problems" being addressed by the CART team...I don't remember the last time I've seen a company participate so much in a newsgroup. I for one am glad that they're here. Mike

>I don't really think that Microsofts goal in participating in this newsgroup >is simply to make everyone think their game is the greatest thing since >sliced bread. In the postings I've read, they've always kept a level head >and attempted to address the questions/problems the author of the post has, >even if the author is flaming the hell out of the game. It seems to me that >there are lots of "real problems" being addressed by the CART team...I don't >remember the last time I've seen a company participate so much in a >newsgroup. I for one am glad that they're here. Agreed. Not to mention that *they*are*working*on*a*patch*. Cut them a little slack, and give them credit for being here despite the daily near-hostile and immature postings. Have you noticed that Microprose isn't here answering questions about GP2 and its lack of *any* 3d card support, no multiplayer (not to mention free internet play), no rain, no editors, no chance of future versions or patches, etc.? If the CPR does not satisfy you, and you see no hope for future satisfaction through patches, then say your peace in a polite, constructive, mature manner and go on your way. Many people (myself include) appreciate the sim's strengths, and are having a blast with it. If you want to see CPR become the best sim out there, and if you want other companies to stop lurking in this newsgroup and start participating, treat Dean, Eric, and John as resources, not punching bags. Jim Getzen Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ http://members.home.net/getzen/

I think people on this group will validate the efforts we are making to recognize, reply to and address the issues - I think it is reasonable to say we are not releasing the game and then walking away. And before you say it, expect an announcement on the Monster Truck Madness series shortly - this is also a long-term business for us. Can someone (unconnected with MS) answer Joe's posting? I'm a bit biased ... ; )

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>>"As usual the critics are always the most vocal, but they are not >>necessarily the majority." >>Sums it up nicely. Thanks Neil. >It always disturbs me when I see developers going out of their way to >justify/contradict negative feedback. It's the kind of attitude that >prevents real problems from being addressed in the future. >Joe >.

Maybe you are right but the only people that I have seen reporting smooth framerates here were people with Pentium2 300 MHz machines or overclocked machines. I have a Pentium classic 200Mhz with a excellent motherboard and plenty of system memory. I also use a Monster 3d. Getting an average of 9-12 FPS with the***pit on is pretty darn sad with my machine. All my other games run very smooth including other D3D titles. I apologize for the poor choice of words (lies and bullshit) but I have been very disappointed about this game and that article irritated me further. Though I still think that article has M$ money behind it. As a passionate user of racing sims, I got a bit over emotional about my disappointments....but 54.99 + tax is lot to swallow when your are unhappy....Nevertheless, I hope that the patch gets this game up a few levels. I really want to like this game but in its current state is just not going to happen. Eric

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>Not "lies", just different experiences from yours. >As you can tell from (some!) postings here and other sources, your >experience is not necessarily representative of everyone else's. >Many people have already bought CPR (it is selling extremely well) and are >enjoying it immensely - we are getting lots of positive email to that >effect. >More "***" users like yourself have pointed problems from your >perspective with the game that we are working hard to address in the >upcoming patch ASAP. >Your opinion and views are valid - that's why we are releasing the patch - >but not everyone evaluates a product using the same criteria. >>This review is such bullshit......it says that the framerates are liquid >>smooth among many other lies! >>The CART team better get this stuff taken care of soon before word of

mouth >>does them in. >>>[link lost in import]

As it probably would me, however I don't quite see that going on here. I applaud these guys for their participation and response in this newsgroup. And I ain't even an Indycar man <g> -- Don Burnette Music City Racing

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:17:33 -0500, "Jim Getzen" >Agreed. Not to mention that *they*are*working*on*a*patch*. Cut them a little >slack, and give them credit for being here despite the daily near-hostile >and immature postings. Do note also that a lot of the features apparent in CART _came_ from this newsgroup in the first place - listed here as someone's wish for GP2/ICR2/N2, or posted on a website. Congrats to Microsoft and TRI for taking notice like that, but their presence here isn't new and they knew this group fairly well. Much of the comment here is entirely justified, coming under "constructive criticism" rather than immature comment, and if MS/TRI would rather see "mature" posts like "CART rocks" rather than an obejctive critique it would surprise me. They know the current version isn't perfect, why else do you think they're here. Cheers! John

Yes, but what is the return rate like or is going to be like. Will you tell us those numbers as well. High sales with high returns is not desirable. Edward On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:05:02 -0800, "Dean (CART Team)"

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> The game is selling very well. >>>I fear the people who like the game are under-represented on this forum. >>Hint: that's not a good sign. >>Joe >>.

Yes, this is certainly reasonable, you're right. You guys are out here on the front linesl, and I respect and appreciate that. No, it's cool, I was over the line there I think. I'd like to apologize and withdraw the comments I made about you hiding from negative feedback. That's obviously not true, you guys are here after all, and many other big companies like EA are not. Joe

<HTML> Dean, <P>I have a question about Windows95 performance with sims in general.&nbsp;&nbsp; Ive searched the Microsoft web page and have a ton of Tips and Tricks for improving Windows95 performance..&nbsp;&nbsp; some work, some didn't.&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you or Microsoft have a FAQ or a very good list of items that increase Windows95 performance ???&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Example... letting Windows95 handle virtual memory is a big performance bust... best to set 2.5 X your RAM and the swap file works much better.&nbsp;&nbsp; Just a thought that I thought might be helpful to everyone who uses sims as well as Windows95 and upcoming CPR revisions and sequels. <P>Thanks for being here on R.A.S. - I for one think its a positive instance of self torture&nbsp; =) <P>Thanks again, <P>Scott B. Husted <BR><A HREF="http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted">http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted</A> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I think people on this group will validate the efforts we are making <BR>to recognize, reply to and address the issues - I think it is reasonable <BR>to say we are not releasing the game and then walking away. <P>And before you say it, expect an announcement on the Monster Truck <BR>Madness series shortly - this is also a long-term business for us. <P>Can someone (unconnected with MS) answer Joe's posting? <P>I'm a bit biased ...&nbsp; ;&nbsp; ) <BR>> <BR>>>"As usual the critics are always the most vocal, but they are not <BR>>>necessarily the majority." <BR>> <BR>>>Sums it up nicely. Thanks Neil. <BR>> <BR>>It always disturbs me when I see developers going out of their way to <BR>>justify/contradict negative feedback. It's the kind of attitude that <BR>>prevents real problems from being addressed in the future. <BR>> <BR>>Joe <BR>> <BR>>. <BR>></BLOCKQUOTE> &nbsp;</HTML>

Don't take it too hard, CART Team... Yes, this is a tough crowd, but keep in mind that it is human nature to be more vocal if you dislike something than if you like it... in other words it's A LOT easier to find faults and *** than it is to look for the good in something and heap praise... If you don't believe me, go to any other newsgroup, delete all things negative, and see what you have left... - Mike. ==================================================== Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"... ====================================================

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:44:47 -0500, "Jim Getzen"

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>Well, I have a machine very similar to yours: 200MHz (with mmx though) and a >Monster 3D. I get somewhere around 22-28 fps, depending on all the >variables. I consider that frame rate to be "reasonably smooth". I play with >all graphics options maxed except: mirror set to cars only, sky off, >steering wheel off, clipping distance set to 18, graphics quality set to >"better". >My frame rate is more than double what yours is, even though we have similar >machines. There must be a reason for the disparity, although I don't know >what it could be.

Jim, I think the main difference is that you are prepared to accept the game's shortcomings - that's not meant to be an inflammatory comment, simply that if you like something you will be more prepared to overlook the problems. Michigan I have _12_ fps with smoothing on, dashboard on, everything else set for max frame-rate. Whenever a CC appears on screen it freezes in place for a split-second (some form of texture transfer problem similar to what GLQuake suffered I guess) and then continues. Turning off dashboard ups this frame-rate to 30+, but the game looked awful at that detail level with dashboard on, and with the dashboard off I feel like Superman, zipping around Michigan about two inches off the ground at 200mph+. Our frame-rate discrepancy comes from the draw distance. I have this maxed, being the only way to avoid the bonehead AI, suddenly braking for no apparent reason in the middle of the Michigan backstraight. I could haul the draw distance in, but that means more accidents and an even worse look to the game. With all details on CPR looks reasonably nice, but when you tune it to get a half decent frame-rate it looks a couple of years old - certainly doesn't flatter the 3dFX card which is capable of much better. Cheers! John

<HTML> <BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF"> Dean, <P>Thanks...&nbsp; Ill be awaiting that!!&nbsp; I think it will help and benefit alot of people. <P>Scott B. Husted <BR><A HREF="http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted">http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted</A> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>&nbsp; <P><FONT FACE="Arial"><FONT COLOR="#000000"><FONT SIZE=-1>&nbsp;Excellent idea - I'll ask the Win95 developers to draw up a list and post it here ASAP.</FONT></FONT></FONT> <BR>Dean, <P>I have a question about Windows95 performance with sims in general.&nbsp;&nbsp; Ive searched the Microsoft web page and have a ton of Tips and Tricks for improving Windows95 performance..&nbsp;&nbsp; some work, some didn't.&nbsp;&nbsp; Do you or Microsoft have a FAQ or a very good list of items that increase Windows95 performance ???&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Example... letting Windows95 handle virtual memory is a big performance bust... best to set 2.5 X your RAM and the swap file works much better.&nbsp;&nbsp; Just a thought that I thought might be helpful to everyone who uses sims as well as Windows95 and upcoming CPR revisions and sequels. <P>Thanks for being here on R.A.S. - I for one think its a positive instance of self torture&nbsp; =) <P>Thanks again, <P>Scott B. Husted <BR><A HREF="http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted">http://home.ptd.net/~sbhusted</A> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE = "CITE">I think people on this group will validate the efforts we are making <BR>to recognize, reply to and address the issues - I think it is reasonable <BR>to say we are not releasing the game and then walking away. <P>And before you say it, expect an announcement on the Monster Truck <BR>Madness series shortly - this is also a long-term business for us. <P>Can someone (unconnected with MS) answer Joe's posting? <P>I'm a bit biased ...&nbsp; ;&nbsp; ) <BR>> <BR>>>"As usual the critics are always the most vocal, but they are not <BR>>>necessarily the majority." <BR>> <BR>>>Sums it up nicely. Thanks Neil. <BR>> <BR>>It always disturbs me when I see developers going out of their way to <BR>>justify/contradict negative feedback. It's the kind of attitude that <BR>>prevents real problems from being addressed in the future. <BR>> <BR>>Joe <BR>> <BR>>. <BR>></BLOCKQUOTE> &nbsp; .</BLOCKQUOTE> &nbsp; </BODY> </HTML>

Of course, no one is saying otherwise. What I do dislike is lots of hype about how "xyz" is the ultimate in reality, is going to knock the socks off everything that has gone before, etc and it then turns out to be aimed at the more casual user. CPR is in an awkward position. It's way too involved for the arcade racer but not challenging enough for the serious simmer. I don't really expect this version of CPR to ever be a true sim but there will always be CPR 99 and CPR 2000 <g> Cheers, Richard

Jim, The above is something I've long maintained. Today's sims take an enormous amount of time and resource to develop, and the target market for a pure sim simply appears not to be large enough to justify that sort of expenditure. For that reason you need to have either a "hook" to attract non-sim people to a sim (the phenomenal sales of NASCAR Racing on the back of NASCAR is the best example), or else develop the sim in such a way that it appeals to a wider audience (GP2's extensive training wheels features and, to a lesser extent, NASCAR2's "arcade" mode are examples of this). Can you imagine what fun a slidy "SEGA Rally" style arcade mode would be in Grand Prix Legends? I suspect that as a pure sim the number of people who could drive GPL competitively would be scant, but add in a great damage model, good replays and a nice sideways arcade mode and you've captured many percentage points in magazine reviews, and with it a marked increase in sales as you open doors to otherwise unreachable markets. That aside, for any company who is in the market to make an auto-sim, this (r.a.s.) is an excellent place to be, provided you can take the rough with the smooth, the flames with the flowers. The people here on r.a.s. may not in themselves make up any sort of market at all, but I'd bet that if you can satisfy the people here the sim you will have created will be far better than in would otherwise have been. Cheers! John