Cart Precision Racing : Absolutely No way.

I agree with you. These days game should have a solid 30 FPS easily with a 3dfx card. So far I am pretty happy with CPR in most areas but the framerate in my opinion is terrible. It practically ruins the game from a simulator stand point. I would like to drive with the***pit on but it kills the framerate by at 10 to 12 FPS. This is absolutely terrible!!!! What good is a great physical driving model when the framerate keeps you from obtaining the feeling of speed and control that a solid 30 FPS would deliver? I don't care about a great driving engine if I can't control it accurately due to a choppy 12 to 15 FPS. It is very difficult to make quick and precise steering movements when the frame rate drops below 20. What really scares me is when the full game arrives and you start out in the middle of a 33 card field, the framerate is going to plummet to like 5 FPS at the start of any race or when you are in the middle of a large pack of cars on an oval. How can they let this game be released without addressing this problem? Microsoft just sucks and I am so tired of having no choice because of there Nazi type politics. If MS releases a Glide patch for this game within in the first 6 months of its release I will have much renewed respect for Microsoft but I will not be holding my breath..... If this game suffers badly with the FPS then it going back to the shelve I found it on. I will not accept shitty performance when the standard is 30 FPS now......software developers get with the program....the 3dfx program that is. Perhaps the Voodoo cards, better yet, 2 of them in synch, will get this game running at an acceptable level and we can start having fun and stop wasting time complaining about things that should have been addressed before the games release..... Oh and how about trying to configure you T2 with WIN95...what kind of bullshit is this? How can a OS be so dumb...I mean you can't even make a program be able to set up and calibrate a simple controller without having to go through some major bullshit and newsgroup turn hunts to solve the problem...but that is another story. Later Kas

I agreed with everything I snipped BTW. But you do bring up an interesting point. With 3DFX programs can easily be written for 30fps. With *FAR* superior graphics. Check Jetfighter3 and Flying Corps for a standard. JF3 is DOS and FC is Direct3D, but they make Direct3D calls which only a few cards can support (namely a 3DFX).With this break through in technology there really is no reason for superior graphics & performance on a P5-166 (or even P5-133) with 3DFX. Finally the lower end machines can get in on the action. This is the first time I can remember this being true. My fear is that people who are clueless will think it is appropriate to write crappy Direct3D programs with very poor framerate. If that is what every one tries to push, then I am out of the Computer *** consumer market. It is really as simple as that. I made quite a stink on the flightsim newsgroup about this :-) These mfrs. really have to start getting their collective ***together. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

>Be real mate, Microsoft is never going to support Glide, and why the hell >should they? there are plenty on other native protocols out there other >than the 3DFX. I could make a call for MS to support Power SGL, but its >never going to happen. The fact is that 3dfx is THE 3d hardware standard. That's not going to change anytime soon either. Just as other companies are *struggling* to match current 3dx performance, 3dfx comes out with the Voodoo2 that will blow everything away for another year, just like 3dfx did all last year. Joe

Quoted text (12 lines)

> >The fact is that 3dfx is THE 3d hardware standard. That's not going to > >change anytime soon either. Just as other companies are *struggling* > >to match current 3dx performance, 3dfx comes out with the Voodoo2 that > >will blow everything away for another year, just like 3dfx did all > >last year. > Hey Joe, > First of all, there is no "standard" for 3d hardware!! Yes, 3dFX is the fastest > 3d card out there. > Secondly, if there was a "standard", then why all the "dedicated" ports??

Well, lately all you here is "Native 3Dfx support" and, maybe, "Native Rendition", and that's it!! That's what I call an (evolving) standard... Gee, I'm glad I have both of them 8^) l8er ronny -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Quoted text (8 lines)

>> I do think a true 3dfx version would be better though. >> Brent >I 3DFX version would be nice, but I don't think MS will support it. >Remember, D3D is Microsoft's baby... they want every machine to use D3D. >If they write a 3DFX patch that outperforms their D3D... they would lose >face.

Heh I'm surprised Microsoft didn't make CPR playable only through using Internet Explorer4.0 like their latest trend of making the Gamezone IE4 only. So far CPR has been a disappointment for me mostly due to slow FPS on my P166 Monster3Dfx 32meg RAM system, and crappy control with my T-2 wheel. Seems like the controls give us 2 options, either turn down the sensitivity to eliminate the twitchy weaving at highspeeds, making it hard to have enough wheellock to make the tight corners, or do the opposite and suffer unstable handling on the straights. Really, as a big CART fan, I hope CPR doesn't turn into another X-Car which was promptly returned when the significant control problems were found to be impossible to resolve and no patches were forthcoming. I *want* to like (and thus possibly purchase) CPR, but these two problems are preventing me from enjoying the demo much. hope they get them sorted out before the final. Cheers. --John (who mostly plays GP2, ICR2 and Nascar2+TPTCC Patch) --==Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks.==-- Seattle, Washington USA. | http://www.***tex.com/~jsilva

Quoted text (10 lines)

> >The fact is that 3dfx is THE 3d hardware standard. That's not going to > >change anytime soon either. Just as other companies are *struggling* > >to match current 3dx performance, 3dfx comes out with the Voodoo2 that > >will blow everything away for another year, just like 3dfx did all > >last year. > Hey Joe, > First of all, there is no "standard" for 3d hardware!! Yes, 3dFX is the fastest > 3d card out there.

The way it is looking, 3DFX can easily become the 3D standard in much the same way SoundBlaster became the soundcard standard. You seem to have a problem with the concept. So be it... -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

iF-22? Oh my... I guess you are a flightsim expert or something. iF-22 as a standard for 3d implementation! Hahaha... Oh stop already! Maybe. We are discussing 3DFX implementation. Not simulation difficulty. Are you sure you are keeping up? I meant inferior graphics not superior. Sorry. Nope I just hope they would *PROPERLY* use what is currently available today. i.e. Do not take adequate equipment and relegate to dog-***performance and graphics as in CPR. Yep.. Ubisoft F1 is how a 3D racing simulator ought to be done. You see there is no comparison to CPR and the Ubisoft F1 demo. And if you think the graphics of UBI F1 are worse than CPR we can stop this discussion right here. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

>>The way it is looking, 3DFX can easily become the 3D standard in much >>the same way SoundBlaster became the soundcard standard. You seem >>to have a problem with the concept. So be it... >How so?? It is the natural order of things. F/X YODA VOICE /OFF <g> The computer industry like any other follows the path of least resistence. 3DFX is the most popular card, and has been chosen en masse by the most demanding users. Companies can satisfy these users, and well, by doing direct 3dfx API ports such as Glide. At the same time they make life easier on themselves in two ways: a DRAMATIC reduction in 3D programming time and costs as compared to D3D implementation, and secondly the oppurtunity to produce high end products that will satisfy even the most demanding customers (not to mention reviewers). A few Rendition users are pissed (their horse lost the race) but it's a small minority - compared to the other wins it's obvious which way the smart software companies are going, and that's direct 3dfx ports (no pun intended). Hell, even EA's figured it out! Joe

>On my P133 with Intense 3D 100 Rendition card, using latest Direct X 5 >drivers, 32MB EDO, all graphics sent to minimum or turned off, 8-bit >sound only, etc,etc I am only getting 20ish FPS which I feel is >disappointing. Yes, very disappointing for such a "hyped up" title. Similar results on my system which is a P166MMX, 32MB EDO, Pure 3d (3dfx-Voodoo). Only way I can achieve anything close to playable (and still note frustrating frame-rate dips) is to turn everything off. Agreed again! And until a "Direct 3d" title performs anywhere close to what I can achieve from a Rendition, Glide, ect... it looks like I will be saving a lot of money up in software in the near future since I'm hearing how everything is heading towards windoze and this form of acceleration. Yes, that's the "Hardware Acceleration" via your video card which supports it. There's some things you can do to help this situation such as setting your virtual memory (Julian posted on this), and also what I have found no matter what game I am going to run under W95 (Direct 3d, Rendition, Glide, ect...) is to shut everything down except Explorer - {Hit Ctrl/Alt/Del and see what all is running in the background. I'm not from MS obviously ;), but I can tell you that my 6meg Pure 3d Voodoo doesn't do much in the way of curing these shortcomings of "Direct 3d" even vs.s my Intergraph I3d (Rendition), however, games supporting Glide, OpenGL, and Rendition are absolutely awesome on these cards. IMHO, Microsoft should not have even attempted a "Racing Sim" of this nature without first taking a good look at its beloved Direct 3d and doing some major rewrites to actually allow TRUE acceleration as I experience on just about every other native platform. Ron L. (Please remove the extra letter(s) to respond) Home of the SSC http://www3.pgh.net/~lazer/ For Nascar2 & Winston Cup Fans!

change anytime soon either. Just as other companies are *struggling* to match current 3dx performance, 3dfx comes out with the Voodoo2 that will blow everything away for another year, just like 3dfx did all last year. I challenge your facts on this one. 3DFX is indeed the market leader right now but by no means are they *THE* standard. The Rendition 2x00 series is out and outperforms the 3DFX in Direct3D in real-world tests, and the Redline drivers are to Rendition what Glide is to 3DFX. There is also the PowerVR and other stuff coming down the road. Many of the manufacturers that sell a 3DFX also sell other 3D boards, often Rendition, such as Diamond which sells the Stealth II Rendition v2100 board and the Monster 3D 3DFX board. If 3DFX was "THE" standard, why would Diamond spend any money selling a competing 3D board? The same is true of Hercules, which will be introducing the Thriller 3D with the v2200 in it. Competition is good and by no means has the 3DFX chipset won the war. As far as the Voodoo 2, its out there aways, isn't it? Its not out now, and when it DOES come out its going to cost more than the less expensive Rendition boards, so you'll pay top dollar for your performance increases. I think we'll continue to see healthy competition between 3D vendors, especially now that Rendition have finally responded to the 3DFX success with the new versions of the Rendition chip. I do wish that D3D would be the answer for unifying this from a developer standpoint, but I also recognize that its not there yet, and I would hope that developers like TRI are allowed to pursue non D3D acceleration to get optimal performance. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

Thanks for the good words about the webpage. I have been working *** it. I just have one more thing to say about CART racing. Just wait until you can race up to 8 people on the *** zone. I have raced with 5 people and it was a blast. The other night we raced at Milwaukee and all of us qualified within about .2 seconds of each other! It was a rush to watch the times come up on the Qualifying board after I ran my two laps. The race was a dice the whole way! >>John nice name :-) SNIP>>You might want to check out The APEX at [link lost in import: /~joja/] SNIP

Quoted text (7 lines)

>Thanks for the info and nice Webpage you have up :-) >I did download a couple of the setups you have on your page and they >did indeed make the demo much more enjoyable since I'm not having to >fight the car so much. Turning down the gfx to everything off except dash >and still allowing smoothing also helped, I am now getting about 20+ fps >and things still look pretty decent. That has also improved things.

snip >Cheers. >--John >--==Note: my real e-mail address is below. Delete the asterisks.==-- > Seattle, Washington USA. | http://www.***tex.com/~jsilva

> To those people who are thinking about buying the newly released > "3DFX-killer" cards to improve D3D performance, I suggest you wait. > 3DFX just released the specs for Voodoo2, and glQuake ran 94.8fps And your eyes work at 30fps, so its a bit of overkill show off aint it? ;) -Jody-

>I challenge your facts on this one. 3DFX is indeed the market leader right now > but by no means are they *THE* standard. The Rendition 2x00 series is out and > outperforms the 3DFX in Direct3D in real-world tests, and the Redline drivers > are to Rendition what Glide is to 3DFX. And just as Rendition is FINALLY catching up to the 3dfx of a year ago, Voodoo2 is announced that sets the bar up 2-3 times higher. No doubt about it, 3dfx will be just as *** next year as they were this last one. Again, ALL of which are still struggling to match 3dfx's year-old technology. By the time this stuff is here Voodoo2 will be here as well, kicking their ass all over the place. Joe

Quoted text (12 lines)

>>You are forgetting one thing (or person), Bill Gates. If he has his way >>there will be no "hardware" standards or even API standards that he >>doesn't control. In the past this was easy to get around, thus the >>SoundBlaster standard. But once Bill successfully buries DOS and Win9x, >>the only standards will be dictated by Microsoft (along with Intel, but >>we won't get into *** theories here <g>). This could be a good >>thing, but it won't be. Microsoft's whole intent is to remove >>competition and 3dfx and Glide are the competition. >But how can he do it? The Glide and OpenGL APIs exist. Smart >developers are using them today, and producing superior products with >strong sales.

<snip> Funny coincidence, but yesterday I was setting up an IBM with NT, and today a G2k with Win95... and on both I found the same screensaver- a 3D marquee saying "OpenGL" flipping madly over the place. What is this about?! It is inconcievable than MS is adding that to everyone's system... so why was it on two disparite systems?

Maybe there is a secret society undermining the Microsoft Monopoly and secretly implanting OpenGl on unsuspecting manufacturers ??? Just a though =) Scott B. Husted

We have talked to Rendition and they have a known bug in their new V2 drivers. They are working on a fix. The readme documents known bugs with Stealth drivers. Video drivers are tough. We try to get all the latest boards and test them, and let the manufacturers know when we find problems, but it's up to them to update their drivers. We can't _force_ them to fix their problems... Cheers, John Browne CART Team

Yeah. More precisely, it simply says there are some. :) It doesn't actually document them. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

Voodoo2 is announced that sets the bar up 2-3 times higher. No doubt about it, 3dfx will be just as *** next year as they were this last one. > Maybe, maybe not. There is quite definitely "doubt". By the time this stuff is here Voodoo2 will be here as well, kicking their ass all over the place.> Your fanatical 3DFX loyalty aside, there's a lot more to winning in the marketplace than winning benchmarks, or PowerMacs would be the standard today. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage [link lost in import]

Quoted text (7 lines)

>> To those people who are thinking about buying the newly released >> "3DFX-killer" cards to improve D3D performance, I suggest you wait. >> 3DFX just released the specs for Voodoo2, and glQuake ran 94.8fps >And your eyes work at 30fps, so its a bit of overkill show off aint it? >;) >-Jody-

You are partially right. Of course, Voodoo2 will run the current glide/OpenGL/D3D programs super smooth, but it is also designed to run future games which will have much more graphical details than the current 3D accelerated games. Ok, here's where you are partially wrong. When web pages report that their test ran Quake 30fps, it means that "timedemo" reported "30fps". So, what does this mean? It means that the total frames/elapsed time during the particular Quake demo was 30. Therefore, average frame rate in the particular demo = 30fps. The demo they often use is demo1.dem or demo2.dem. Either way, it reports slightly higher average frame rate than you usually experience in the real net-Quake games. Moreover, since 30fps is "average," it means that the instanious frame rate can go below 30fps. In fact, in the real net-Quake games, the player who has the average frame rate of 30fps running timedemo often experiences his frame rate to drop under 20fps during heavy fights. This is very critical since the higher frame rate during the fights means the better chance of survival. I personally tweak my Quake so that it scores 45fps in timedemo. But you are still right that 94.8fps is indeed an overkill :)

I've always wanted to know more about this. Do you have any data/papers/whatever to support this? From college on (I'm an electrical engineer) I have been told that the human eye is approx 30 frames per second. Thus, the television scan rate of 30 interlaced. Also, movies are less than 30, but they have analog color and so the 'smoothness' is built in. I've never heard anyone say over 30 frames, but I am willing to get educated on this. -Paul

Quoted text (8 lines)

> >And your eyes work at 30fps, so its a bit of overkill show off aint it? > God, this misperception is spreading around the net like a cancer. > Your eyes do NOT work at 30fps. Most people can easily distinguish > frame rates up to 60 fps, and some people (fighter pilots for example) > can go up to 120+ fps. > Joe

Quoted text (12 lines)

>>>You are forgetting one thing (or person), Bill Gates. If he has his way >>>there will be no "hardware" standards or even API standards that he >>>doesn't control. In the past this was easy to get around, thus the >>>SoundBlaster standard. But once Bill successfully buries DOS and Win9x, >>>the only standards will be dictated by Microsoft (along with Intel, but >>>we won't get into *** theories here <g>). This could be a good >>>thing, but it won't be. Microsoft's whole intent is to remove >>>competition and 3dfx and Glide are the competition. >>But how can he do it? The Glide and OpenGL APIs exist. Smart >>developers are using them today, and producing superior products with >>strong sales.

after reading this thread yesterday, I looked in to the Visual C++ documentation that comes with MSVC++, and sure enough, there is a lot of documentation on OpenGL, and even ready-to-compile sample code. I wouldn't say they are pushing it, but it doesn't seem they are at war with it.

>I've always wanted to know more about this. Do you have any >data/papers/whatever to support this? Sorry, Paul, not any more - I studied this stuff years ago in a user interface programming class at university. That's where I would look for such data, people doing user interface reseach (sometimes called "human factors" and "ergonomics"). Maybe I'll poke around the web a bit, it would be nice to get some authoritative sources to conclude this argument once and for all. Joe

>after reading this thread yesterday, I looked in to the Visual C++ >documentation that comes with MSVC++, and sure enough, there is a lot >of documentation on OpenGL, and even ready-to-compile sample code. I >wouldn't say they are pushing it, but it doesn't seem they are at war >with it. That's a good start. If MS is smart they will support it fully, it's the only way to prevent continued 3d programming bleedoff to native APIs like Glide. Joe

Yes to use you example there are more than benchmarks...and its called support. And that besides being faster is where Voodoo is winning the battle...more sims natively support Voodoo. Now Voodoo2 is coming and things look grim indeed for the other 3dcards that are just now reaching Voodoo 1 levels....in benchmarks not support. PAPA DOC

First a program can be the standard in Graphics and not be a "realistic" simulation. Second Jetfighter 3 besides doing a much better job of graphics than either of the programs you have listed also did it for FREE....I did not have to buy another program like I did for that loser EF 2.0....and DONT EVEN GO talking about that piece of shit iF22......hardware acceleration....what a joke. Besides the joke view system, joke pauses...yes there wasnt much funny about iF-22. Jetfighter 3 on the other hand promises to be fun and fun it is....and the graphics are the standard in Jet Sims at the moment. If the graphics are pixelated then obviously you have set it up incorrectly...which almost seems impossible considering how easy it is...to do. But there you go, Im always surprised. Repeat after me...graphics have nothing to do with realism...and if we do go to the realism school of flight sims then lets not mention EF....eh....I know a couple of particular Polygon Flight Sims that have the locks on that..... But Jetfighter 3 does indeed have the lock on graphics... PAPA DOC Pink Flamingo Pilot...<G>

support. And that besides being faster is where Voodoo is winning the battle...more sims natively support Voodoo. >> Sims across the board or just flight sims? What I see is that if you wanted the best cross-section of racing sim support you'd find it to be in Direct3D mode, as opposed to 3DFX only. are just now reaching Voodoo 1 levels....in benchmarks not support. >> reaching? How about surpassing? In the meantime, Voodoo 2 is still not out. If the bleeding edge types want to get the fastest boards at any given time, that might not be the 3DFX. Of course the Voodoo2 will then up the ante and so on. In any event, after trying the Hercules Stingray 3D (6 megs, $250) and the Stealth II (4 megs, $120), I'll keep the Stealth -- its simply faster in Direct3D. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

Just about anyone who has spent 2 minutes in the flightsim Newsgroup. Anyone who does not think so, does not know what they are talking about. In your case I am not surprised. At this point, it does not matter that you do or do not. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Wail is 50-60fps. I get this with my 266 PII,***pit off, some graphics (trackside objects, sky, etc) turned off, music set to 8 bit mono. -- John Browne CART Team >>We have seen some slowdowns with the first generation of Rendition cards. My >>Monster 3D card totally wails in CART. >>Cheers, >>John Browne >>MS CART Team >So you are saying that you get a consistent framerate >of _greater_ than 20FPS in CART with your M3D/D3D? >Funny, mine doesn't do that. Maybe you should define >"WAIL" and tell us what system configuartion and detail >settings you are using. Most of us, here, haven't been >as lucky as you. >>>On my P133 with Intense 3D 100 Rendition card, using latest Direct X 5 >>>drivers, 32MB EDO, all graphics sent to minimum or turned off, 8-bit >>>sound only, etc,etc I am only getting 20ish FPS which I feel is >>>disappointing. >-- >* rrevved at mindspring dot com / (s.p.u.t.u.m.(unit.26)) >* "bob"'s ululating hyena battalion, yggdrasil element

Yes and thats one of the main reasons that in the last 6 months I have spent 0 Dollars on racing sims. So congrats car sim makers. Well done. If they think Im naive enough to buy D3D sims they are hallucinating....especially after iF-22 and the Cart Demo... Yes just now reaching...thats correct. This last month....ooooh wow. Am I impressed...do they honestly think that Im gonna dump a 3dfx Card for a possible 10 to 20% improvement...?? On cards that dont support all the games I play...??? Please...I want speed sure but Im not going out to spend 200.00 on a 10 to 20% improvement...when I can wait and get a 300% improvement from People I know build bad ass cards. 3DFX.. Well my Realvision cost me 149.00 and its very nearly as fast as a Rendition 2100.... and its faster at some items..and it doesnt have all these compatibility problems. Think I will keep my Voodoo. Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...

only.>> You presume wrong. See www.digitalsports.com for my hands on preview. I ran it on both my Rendtion v2100-based Stealth II and 3DFX Rush with no problems. Its Direct3D. quality/speed of "native" 3dfx Glide ports seems higher.>> "Seems"? I hope no one rips for me for not supplying more empirical data after "seems" is used <G> Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

>>>3DFX gives you that since it supports D3D of course, but generally the > quality/speed of "native" 3dfx Glide ports seems higher.>> >"Seems"? I hope no one rips for me for not supplying more empirical data after > "seems" is used <G> Sheesh - can't win around here. ;-) I say "is" I get blasted for claiming too much, try to be fair and say "seems", no good either. Joe

Try a real 3dfx card next time :-) The Stealth II is *NOT* faster in 3D than the Monster 3D. You don't happen to write about video cards do you? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

>Try a real 3dfx card next time :-) The Stealth II is *NOT* faster in 3D than >the Monster 3D. You don't happen to write about video cards do you? Cute. No I don't write about video boards, but after listening how all things 3DFX are godlike and everything else is trash, I think its worth pointing out that Rendition has indeed caught up in real-world performance under Direct3D. Under Glide v. RRedline, who knows. Randy

>Sims across the board or just flight sims? Flight sims, sports games - I presume EA's Andretti Racing will be 3dfx only. 3DFX gives you that since it supports D3D of course, but generally the quality/speed of "native" 3dfx Glide ports seems higher. Joe

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:21:49 -0800, "John Browne" >Wail is 50-60fps. I get this with my 266 PII,***pit off, some graphics >(trackside objects, sky, etc) turned off, music set to 8 bit mono. Heck I get 50-60 fps in ICR2 with everything ON, how's that for progress? Seriously though, don't you think it's a slightly overdemanding sim when it needs a PII _and_ a 3dFX card to achive decent frame-rates with all eye-candy and aural features turned off? It's fine, I'll race it (well, hotlap it), but it's pretty disappointing graphically with all the goodies off. Cheers! John

I thought ICR2 was software limited to 30 FPS as discussed in previous threads? True or false?

>Sheesh - can't win around here. ;-) I say "is" I get blasted for >claiming too much, try to be fair and say "seems", no good either. Consider yourself enlightened... You have discovered *the* basic truth of all of usenet... But, then again, that's just my opinion.......... :-) - Mike. ==================================================== Mike Holthouse - Indianapolis, IN I'm sick of spam!! To e-mail me, remove the "x"... ====================================================

> Sheesh - can't win around here. ;-) I say "is" I get blasted for > claiming too much, try to be fair and say "seems", no good either. > Joe Hi Joe... Yep, you're experiencing the infamous "New Product Feeding Frenzy" on the ras. Happens whenever a new product comes out. Emotions run high, Yay and Nay opinions abound, heated "discussions", this sucks that rules... etc, etc. Give the troops a little more time, and they'll settle down. But until it does, it's tough to get questions answered about "other" sims. Afraid to stick my hand it the water... Andre

Naturally! I'll blast a while with my right hand, switch over to left hand and keep right on blasting... :) <crackle>Napalm strike required, map coordinates Cheers! John

>I thought ICR2 was software limited to 30 FPS as discussed in previous >threads? True or false? In most versions, but in the 3D version you can hit Alt-X for "turbo" mode which gives you the maximum frame-rate possible. Cheers! John