GOT MY CART:PR GOLD TODAY!!!!!

Got home and noticed a package from Fedex on my table.. from Microsoft.. I knew right there it was C:PR.. Would've posted a message to you guys earlier.. but I've been "busy" for the last 2 hours.. If you call racing busy!! Installation went fine, it uses Win95's joystick panel, so that went fine.. runs pretty smooth on my P233MMX 32 megs RAM, 2 meg PCI card.. Looks good too.. Physics model is good with all the driving aids turned off. Sound is MUCH MUCH better than the motorcycle sounds in ICR2. Only complaint that I have so far is that you have no control over your pit stops as far as entering/exiting.. Also, you have to race as one of the CART drivers, ala GP2.. but that's not a big deal.. All in all, a very nice sim.. Well, that answers all the questions I would've asked, but if you have more e-mail me or leave one here and I will do my best to answer them.. Oh yeah, the ANALYSIS feature is AWESOME.. has the real-time graphs for speed, rpms, g's, etc.. while viewing a replay also.. -- Dave Otterness

--------------B86EF6E994F2C79EA957C5FC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cool, I envy you a great deal. Tell us, how does it FEEL? In comparison to the sims we already have played. Did MS really get the feel right? Does it feel like a real racecar? Details, dude, we desire details...

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> Got home and noticed a package from Fedex on my table.. from Microsoft.. > I knew right there it was C:PR.. Would've posted a message to you guys > earlier.. but I've been "busy" for the last 2 hours.. If you call racing > busy!! Installation went fine, it uses Win95's joystick panel, so that > went fine.. runs pretty smooth on my P233MMX 32 megs RAM, 2 meg PCI > card.. Looks good too.. Physics model is good with all the driving aids > turned off. Sound is MUCH MUCH better than the motorcycle sounds in > ICR2. Only complaint that I have so far is that you have no control over > your pit stops as far as entering/exiting.. Also, you have to race as > one of the CART drivers, ala GP2.. but that's not a big deal.. All in > all, a very nice sim.. Well, that answers all the questions I would've > asked, but if you have more e-mail me or leave one here and I will do my > best to answer them.. > Oh yeah, the ANALYSIS feature is AWESOME.. has the real-time graphs for > speed, rpms, g's, etc.. while viewing a replay also.. > -- > Dave Otterness

-- Matt & Audrey Lewis --------------B86EF6E994F2C79EA957C5FC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <HTML> Cool, I envy you a great deal.&nbsp; Tell us, how does it <I>FEEL?</I>&nbsp; In comparison to the sims we already have played.&nbsp; Did MS really get the feel right?&nbsp; Does it feel like a real racecar?&nbsp; Details, dude, we desire details... <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Got home and noticed a package from Fedex on my table.. from Microsoft.. <BR>I knew right there it was C:PR.. Would've posted a message to you guys <BR>earlier.. but I've been "busy" for the last 2 hours.. If you call racing <BR>busy!! Installation went fine, it uses Win95's joystick panel, so that <BR>went fine.. runs pretty smooth on my P233MMX 32 megs RAM, 2 meg PCI <BR>card.. Looks good too.. Physics model is good with all the driving aids <BR>turned off.&nbsp; Sound is MUCH MUCH better than the motorcycle sounds in <BR>ICR2. Only complaint that I have so far is that you have no control over <BR>your pit stops as far as entering/exiting.. Also, you have to race as <BR>one of the CART drivers, ala GP2.. but that's not a&nbsp; big deal.. All in <BR>all, a very nice sim.. Well, that answers all the questions I would've <BR>asked, but if you have more e-mail me or leave one here and I will do my <BR>best to answer them.. <P>Oh yeah, the ANALYSIS feature is AWESOME.. has the real-time graphs for <BR>speed, rpms, g's, etc.. while viewing a replay also.. <P>-- <BR>Dave Otterness &nbsp; <P>-- <BR>Matt &amp; Audrey Lewis <BR>&nbsp;</HTML> --------------B86EF6E994F2C79EA957C5FC--

> Why dont you post pictures whimp if you are going to brag. > -- > Sincerely, > Mark F. Man, you honestly don't have to cry just because you didn't win.. sore loser.. I can picture you now.. Fat little 11 year old sitting on mommy's computer when he's supposed to be taking a nap... -- Dave Otterness

Cool, I envy you a great deal. Tell us, how does it FEEL? In comparison to the sims we already have played. Did MS really get the feel right? Does it feel like a real racecar? Details, dude, we desire details... I'd like to answer that...but first a disclaimer: I own Gp2 and have never played N2 or ICR2, etc. Second, in my book the first and foremost thing that makes a sim a sim and not an arcade game is the physics model. That is, how realistic is it comared to actual driving. Does it make you feel like you are behind the wheel. This has nothing to do with eye candy as owners of F1 by Psygnosis can atest. Given that I can say that I believe CART PR has failed in comparison to GP2. It is not just a question of the two of them being different and one being a matter of taste vs. the other. I would challenge any GP2 person to take CART PR out on a road course and tell me that they feel they have the same degree of control of the car as GP2 with all drivers aids turned off gives you. Cornering is a good example. Try taking a corner a bit too tight at more speed than you should and the game reacts very much like GP2 does when you have steering help on. That is my observation even when I have the game set to professional and ALL driving aids turned off. I fear theat Terminal Reality has dummied the game down by not allowing COMPLETE control of the car. Anyone who has drove GP2 for some time with steering help knows how hard it is to make the adjustment to running without it. It takes time because at first it feels like you are driving on ice. That is what happens with complete control. But with CART, you never get that same feeling. The physics model has taken some of the skill level needed to race at the top level out of the game, much to the games detriment. Here is another example...if you spin out and get turned around, the quickest way to turn back around is to punch it from a dead stop and do an Alex Zanardi doughnut around into the right direction and go. You see real F1 racers do this all the time. Try this in CART. It takes quite an effort to diliberately get the car to spin around. CART has removed this degree of control. In a word, this is UNrealistic. Another thing that makes a sim different from a arcade game is that it incorporates as many of the features of the real event as possible. In this regard, CART gets a mixed score. First of all, lets take yellow flags. At one point at Holmstead, I hit the wall and lost a wheel. I came to a grinding halt at the center of the track. Did that bring out a yellow flag? No. I left the car out there for several minutes and no pace car, no yellow. I eventally was creamed by a AI car. Next, lets try going into the pits. In GP2, when you come to your position in the pit lane, there is someone there and in qualifying, you can watch the times of all of the other drivers on a simulated monitor and accelerate time if you wish to the end of the session to see all of the times. In CART, I have yet to find a way to just sit back in qualifying or practice and watch the times of all of the comeditors from the pit lane like real drivers do. There is no way to accelerate time to see the times you did in practice vs. the rest of the field without actually driving the entire practice to the end. The only option you have is to skip to the next session. You never get to see how you did in THIS session without driving to the end. I could go on and on and I will post more in a future post but for now, my advise is to not rush out and buy CART at first opportunity but read a few more posts here and get a feel for the consensus regarding these issues. This is my opinion only and others are certain to have theirs! If you agree with me that the physics model is the most important aspect of a sim, you may want to try out the demo first before taking the plunge. Frank

Why dont you post pictures whimp if you are going to brag. -- Sincerely, Mark F. Got a site on the Web? Want to promote or Join a Network? Heres your place to go: http://www.webstorage.com/~simgo/ Want to learn NASCAR 2 and/or Icr2 Editing? Well, then come here!: http://www.webstorage.com/~simgo/mypage/ Best Page of The Web!: http://www.aolsucks.com (nospam) >Got home and noticed a package from Fedex on my table.. from Microsoft.. >I knew right there it was C:PR.. Would've posted a message to you guys >earlier.. but I've been "busy" for the last 2 hours.. If you call racing >busy!! Installation went fine, it uses Win95's joystick panel, so that >went fine.. runs pretty smooth on my P233MMX 32 megs RAM, 2 meg PCI >card.. Looks good too.. Physics model is good with all the driving aids >turned off. Sound is MUCH MUCH better than the motorcycle sounds in >ICR2. Only complaint that I have so far is that you have no control over >your pit stops as far as entering/exiting.. Also, you have to race as >one of the CART drivers, ala GP2.. but that's not a big deal.. All in >all, a very nice sim.. Well, that answers all the questions I would've >asked, but if you have more e-mail me or leave one here and I will do my >best to answer them.. >Oh yeah, the ANALYSIS feature is AWESOME.. has the real-time graphs for >speed, rpms, g's, etc.. while viewing a replay also.. >-- >Dave Otterness

-- rest of good post snipped -- I will agree with everything you said (about no yellow flags, viewing qualifying times, etc.) *except* your comments on the physics model. I have extensive time behind the wheel with ICR2, N2, and GP2. I think the driving feel is *right on* for CPR. No offense, but I think your judgement might be a little distorted by your lack of Indycar driving -- you said you haven't driven ICR2. Keep in mind that an Indycar is not the equivalent of an F1 car. For example, Indycars are not nearly as good in road course handling and therefore don't have the same level of control as you are used to. In my book, the physics in CPR are much superior to ICR2, slightly better than N2, and at least equal to GP2. Not perfect, of course, and possibly could still use some tweaking, but impressive nevertheless. Jim Getzen

> But the most disconcerting problem is the AI. At Milwaukee last night in > two different quick races, there were several accidents on the first laps > between the sims and the cars were sloooooooooooooow. I can't figure out > how to speed them up. I encountered this as well at Fontana. I had several encounters with very slowcars. Going full tilt and then come up behind a car and then releaze its hardly moving! Too late! Slam!! I was running a quick race with everything on, except damge, no driving aids, at intermediate level. This brings up a major complaint I have - no spotter! As far as race commentator goes, after awhile I turned that off. I found it more annoying than helpful. Why not a spotter as in N2? Jeff Kerr

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>> Cool, I envy you a great deal. Tell us, how does it FEEL? In >>comparison to the sims we already have played. Did MS really get the feel >>right? Does it feel like a real racecar? Details, dude, we desire >>details... >> I'd like to answer that...but first a disclaimer: I own Gp2 and have >>never played N2 or ICR2, etc. Second, in my book the first and foremost >>thing that makes a sim a sim and not an arcade game is the physics model. >>That is, how realistic is it comared to actual driving. Does it make you >>feel like you are behind the wheel. This has nothing to do with eye candy

as >>owners of F1 by Psygnosis can atest. >> Given that I can say that I believe CART PR has failed in comparison to

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>>GP2. >-- rest of good post snipped -- >I will agree with everything you said (about no yellow flags, viewing >qualifying times, etc.) *except* your comments on the physics model. >I have extensive time behind the wheel with ICR2, N2, and GP2. I think >the driving feel is *right on* for CPR. No offense, but I think your >judgement might be a little distorted by your lack of Indycar driving >-- you said you haven't driven ICR2. Keep in mind that an Indycar is >not the equivalent of an F1 car. For example, Indycars are not nearly >as good in road course handling and therefore don't have the same >level of control as you are used to. >In my book, the physics in CPR are much superior to ICR2, slightly >better than N2, and at least equal to GP2. Not perfect, of course, and >possibly could still use some tweaking, but impressive nevertheless.

OK, your probably right about F1 cars being very different creatures that Indy cars and therefore both are realistic in their physics model. There are other things that need to be implemented in order to be able to consider this a more realistic sim. First off, in GP2, when you cut a chicane there is a black flag that penalises you for ten seconds, ruining your lap time. Last night I was driving at Surfers Paradise. There are two different chicanes on that course that have curbs and grass with cones at the apex. You can gain quite an advantage by completely cutting the corner and running over the cones and grass. As long as your outside wheels keep in contact with the road, there is no penalty or even a decrease in speed to take away from your lap time. You can also use this to pass an AI car with no problem. The cones don't even move, you can drive right through them. In GP2, as in real life, the grass slows you down by a couple of tenths in lap time. Also, in CPR when you have damage turned off, you can glance off the walls at will and suffer very little loss of lap time and minimal loss of speed. Its only when you really loose it and plow into the wall that you really scrub speed. Even with damage off, there should be a much more realistic loss of speed and time when contact is made with anything, walls or opponents. Speaking of AI, at one point on a straight I slowed down from a flat out sixth at 177 mph to fifth and about 140. I was trying to get the cars to pass me and evaluate their responses. Clearly I was opening the door wide to be passed. Yet for them, this wasn't enough. I think in an attempt to emulate and distinguish between different drivers personalities, they have made some drivers reasonably agressive and made the others unrealistically passive to the point of being a joke. I'll add more in a subsequent post.

This will be nice having John around... >Howdy to all you gamers who have eagerly awaited CART Precision Racing. I'm >part of the team at Microsoft that created the product and I'd like to >address some of your issues. [...]

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>: Got home and noticed a package from Fedex on my table.. from Microsoft.. >: I knew right there it was C:PR.. Would've posted a message to you guys >: earlier.. but I've been "busy" for the last 2 hours.. If you call racing >...snip... >Got mine last night too. I agree that this still has some problems. I >think the physics model is very good, but it hard to tell because I can;t >quite figure out how to set up the controls - the steering input settings >are undocumented, and playing with them provided some different levels of >control, but it was hard to tell what exactly was going on. But as for the >poster who said it doesn't feel as "icy" as GP2, he's right, the car just >seems to really stick although I will admit to a certain amount of >careening and spinning =8-). The pit entrance and exit is very unerving >since you arren;t really sure of when you are going to get control of the >car and it looks almost out of control. Autopilot when help is on? >Don't know about that one.

There are two steering control sliders: Speed sensitivity and linearity. Speed sensitivity works like many street cars power steering systems: the steering ratio is reduced as speed is increased. This makes the car less twitchy at high speed. Linearity refers to whether the inputs from the controller are linear; ie whether10% movement in the controller equals a 10% input in steering. In general, you'll find that moving the sliders to the right provides less feel but more "stability" while moving them to the left gives you faster response but the car can get a little twitchy. Please note WRT car feel that the default cars are all mounted with soft compound tires. We did this to help rookies with their first experiences with the sim. Selecting hard compound tires will provide less grip but more wear. When pits are turned on (realism dialog--F3) then the car goes on autopilot at the entrance to the pits and as the car drives out of the pits. Autopilot turns off at pit out; you'll soon find the spot. If you keep your foot on the gas and the car in an appropriate gear for the track, you'll start accelerating as soon as the rev limiter is off. If the AI cars seem too slow, try setting your skill level from Rookie to Intermediate or Pro. I'll have to look into the server issue. I believe it will be setup Real Soon Now.

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>Jury's still out on this one. It looks better than ICR2 and the graphics >are truly great (and the sound made me want to change my underwear) and >they picked up the race weekend paradigm of GP2 which >was very nice, but unless the racing is fun..... >--- >Terry Weiss

Cheers, John Browne Car Racing Sims Program Manager Microsoft Corp.

Why not a spotter as in N2? > Jeff Kerr I remember at one of the Cart races this year one of the announcers said Cart doesn't use spotters. But some of the teams were experimenting with them. Karter

WTF is your problem?Whimp?Brag?Dont you think youd be bragging too if you won? <G>

Howdy to all you gamers who have eagerly awaited CART Precision Racing. I'm part of the team at Microsoft that created the product and I'd like to address some of your issues. Having driven all the serious racing sims out there I can assure you that CPR has the most realistic physics model going. It's the closest thing I've experienced to driving a real racecar, something I do on weekends... Certainly the physics model is not perfect (this is only V1!) but it's darn close and extremely well developed. Let's take some for instances. A common novice mistake in a race car is to enter a corner too fast and then, seeing that he's about to run out of track, crank the wheel to full lock to try to get the car around. I've seen this countless times in beginners on autocross tracks, race tracks, and in CPR. What happens is that the slip angle of the front tires becomes excessively high when the wheel is cranked to full lock and the loses grip. As you probably know, racing tire grip goes up quickly with increasing slip angles, but drops off like a cliff once slip angle exceeds a relatively small amount. The result is understeer; ie the car drives straight off the track. The only time full lock can be used without a high risk of understeer is on extremely slow speed sharp hairpins like you find at Vancouver or the Festival Curve at Portland. Another possibility is that, with ABS turned off, you are locking up the front tires. At this point no steering inputs will have any effect. You can tell if the front tires are locking up by watching them in the***pit view. A useful aid to determine if you are using excessive steering lock is to look at the Pi analysis for your lap. Select steering angle from the drop down and note the corner where you went off. Another common pattern is to get slowed down enough for a tight turn, crank the wheel to full lock, then apply too much throttle too soon. AGain, the slip angle is extreme on the front tires and this time, with throttle application, weight has been shifted from the front to the rear, thus reducing grip. Understeer again results! What race drivers learn to do, and what a REALISTIC sim should reward, is to go in slow and out fast. Of course, really fast drivers go in fast and out fast, but this takes tremendous skill and time to achieve. But you'll find your lap times will drop remarkably if you get your braking done early, turn in smoothly and slowly, then release the car as you get to the apex. You'll find that you use a lot less steering angle, which is what you want. An advanced technique--which is *** both Indy cars and on CPR--is trail braking. Trail braking can help transfer weight to the front end, providing more grip to help get the car turned in quickly. You'll need to experiment with your controller to find out where to position the brake pedal or joystick to get the right amount; on my TM Nascar wheel controller I typically get on the brakes fully, then smoothly release them until the pedal is depressed only about 1/4" inch as I get the car turned in. Then the brakes are fully off and I'm back on the gas. All of the above refers to road (and street) courses. On ovals the problems are different. There are no slow corners on an oval, and the aerodynamic setup is the primary contributor to cornering behavior. Lifting as you enter a corner can cause the car to get loose and spin. If you consistently have this problem, try increasing rear wing and reducing front wing. Turning in much earlier and getting on the gas to keep the rear end planted is also effective. Ovals are tricky! But they're a blast to race on and you'll find that being super smooth will really pay off in improved lap times. Donuts: I cut them all the time. Earlier this week Alex Zanardi was cutting donuts in CPR down at Laguna Seca and loving it. You'll find it easiest if you set the steering ratio to 11 and traction control needs to be off. Try doing them with an outside view; the smoke and tire tracks are cool... I'll be on this list pretty regularly, so if you have questions about CART I'll be happy to answer them. Cheers, Racing Car Sims Program Manager > Cool, I envy you a great deal. Tell us, how does it FEEL? In > comparison to the sims we already have played. Did MS really get the feel

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> right? Does it feel like a real racecar? Details, dude, we desire > details... > I'd like to answer that...but first a disclaimer: I own Gp2 and have > never played N2 or ICR2, etc. Second, in my book the first and foremost > thing that makes a sim a sim and not an arcade game is the physics model. > That is, how realistic is it comared to actual driving. Does it make you > feel like you are behind the wheel. This has nothing to do with eye candy

as > owners of F1 by Psygnosis can atest. > Given that I can say that I believe CART PR has failed in comparison to > GP2. It is not just a question of the two of them being different and one > being a matter of taste vs. the other. I would challenge any GP2 person to > take CART PR out on a road course and tell me that they feel they have the > same degree of control of the car as GP2 with all drivers aids turned off > gives you. Cornering is a good example. Try taking a corner a bit too tight > at more speed than you should and the game reacts very much like GP2 does > when you have steering help on. That is my observation even when I have the > game set to professional and ALL driving aids turned off. I fear theat > Terminal Reality has dummied the game down by not allowing COMPLETE control > of the car. Anyone who has drove GP2 for some time with steering help knows > how hard it is to make the adjustment to running without it. It takes time > because at first it feels like you are driving on ice. That is what happens > with complete control. But with CART, you never get that same feeling. The > physics model has taken some of the skill level needed to race at the top > level out of the game, much to the games detriment. Here is another > example...if you spin out and get turned around, the quickest way to turn > back around is to punch it from a dead stop and do an Alex Zanardi doughnut > around into the right direction and go. You see real F1 racers do this all > the time. Try this in CART. It takes quite an effort to diliberately get the > car to spin around. CART has removed this degree of control. In a word, this > is UNrealistic. > Another thing that makes a sim different from a arcade game is that it > incorporates as many of the features of the real event as possible. In this > regard, CART gets a mixed score. > First of all, lets take yellow flags. At one point at Holmstead, I hit > the wall and lost a wheel. I came to a grinding halt at the center of the > track. Did that bring out a yellow flag? No. I left the car out there for > several minutes and no pace car, no yellow. I eventally was creamed by a AI > car. > Next, lets try going into the pits. In GP2, when you come to your > position in the pit lane, there is someone there and in qualifying, you can > watch the times of all of the other drivers on a simulated monitor and > accelerate time if you wish to the end of the session to see all of the > times. In CART, I have yet to find a way to just sit back in qualifying or > practice and watch the times of all of the comeditors from the pit lane like > real drivers do. There is no way to accelerate time to see the times you > did in practice vs. the rest of the field without actually driving the > entire practice to the end. The only option you have is to skip to the next > session. You never get to see how you did in THIS session without driving to > the end. > I could go on and on and I will post more in a future post but for now, > my advise is to not rush out and buy CART at first opportunity but read a > few more posts here and get a feel for the consensus regarding these issues. > This is my opinion only and others are certain to have theirs! > If you agree with me that the physics model is the most important aspect > of a sim, you may want to try out the demo first before taking the plunge. > Frank

>I remember at one of the Cart races this year one of the announcers said >Cart doesn't use spotters. But some of the teams were experimenting >with them. Thanks for that message... I was wondering about that. I guess some drivers also have their own preferances about using the radio which might factor into any acceptance of spotters.

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> Cool, I envy you a great deal. Tell us, how does it FEEL? In > comparison to the sims we already have played. Did MS really get the feel > right? Does it feel like a real racecar? Details, dude, we desire > details... > I'd like to answer that...but first a disclaimer: I own Gp2 and have > never played N2 or ICR2, etc. Second, in my book the first and foremost > thing that makes a sim a sim and not an arcade game is the physics model. > That is, how realistic is it comared to actual driving. Does it make you > feel like you are behind the wheel. This has nothing to do with eye candy as > owners of F1 by Psygnosis can atest.

[snip]

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> with complete control. But with CART, you never get that same feeling. The > physics model has taken some of the skill level needed to race at the top > level out of the game, much to the games detriment. Here is another > example...if you spin out and get turned around, the quickest way to turn > back around is to punch it from a dead stop and do an Alex Zanardi doughnut > around into the right direction and go. You see real F1 racers do this all > the time. Try this in CART. It takes quite an effort to diliberately get the > car to spin around. CART has removed this degree of control. In a word, this > is UNrealistic.

Sorry, but this is one of the most UNREALISTIC features in GP2: you are always able to do a perfect 180 degree donut! There is almost no real physics calculation involved... On the other hand, I was disappointed that you could not spin the wheels in ICR2 to do a donut. l8er ronny -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

>Agreed, it's always nice to see game developers active on the >newsgroups. I hate the "silent treatment" we get from companies like >EA. After playing the demo, I realize how feeble I am at racing Indy cars. =)

>This will be nice having John around... Agreed, it's always nice to see game developers active on the newsgroups. I hate the "silent treatment" we get from companies like EA. Joe

sorry lier. Aint true -- Sincerely, Mark F. Got a site on the Web? Want to promote or Join a Network? Heres your place to go: http://www.webstorage.com/~simgo/ Want to learn NASCAR 2 and/or Icr2 Editing? Well, then come here!: http://www.webstorage.com/~simgo/mypage/ Best Page of The Web!: http://www.aolsucks.com (nospam) >> Why dont you post pictures whimp if you are going to brag. >> -- >> Sincerely, >> Mark F. >Man, you honestly don't have to cry just because you didn't win.. sore >loser.. I can picture you now.. Fat little 11 year old sitting on >mommy's computer when he's supposed to be taking a nap... >-- >Dave Otterness