Today I went to the IWCCCars site and was rather disappointed to see they
had posted an editorial regarding the updates situation there (and more or
less carrying over into other areas as well).
I do not condone people sending insulting, inflammatory email to web site
operators who perhaps do not meet the standards that the flamer sets out for
them, by any means. But I do feel that if you operate a web site which
provides a service, and if that service is faltering, you do need to have a
thick enough skin to accept a little criticism constructively and stop
falling back on the excuse which I have seen repeatedly and has truly begun
to get under my skin.
That excuse is... "Hey, this is a free site, so you have no right to
complain".
I am not trying to step on anyones toes or upset someone to the extent that
they are going to close down their web site, although I suppose that is a
possibility when I point out something like this... but this needs to be
said. I feel that if someone has made a commitment to do something, the
issue of what it costs is not the point. For example, if you are involved
in little league baseball, as I have been, and you have made a commitment to
coach, do you have the right to say "Hey, I do this for free, so the parents
have no right to complain if I***up"? Can you absolve yourself of all
responsibility for your actions if (and because) you do something on a
volunteer basis?
I am not saying that anyone here owes anyone else anything... if you want to
paint cars or make utilities, thats great, but thats up to you, your
motivation to do so is your own... whether it is because you want such a
feature in YOUR game and having made it work you wish to share it with other
people, or a situation like Dave Noonans, where he saw there was a desire to
get a certain utility and put in the time and commitment to make one and
then market it for some small form of income, or you do it for the
recognition and adoration of everyone who comes to your web site...
Motivation is really not the point here, its a question of taking on
responsibility to do something and then not living up to your own
commitment.
If you have a legitimate reason for not being able to do something, thats
perfectly understandable... if your computer blows up and you lose all your
web site stuff, or you leave on a vacation, or anything like that, hey, we
understand; at least I hope most of us do, the ones with the maturity and
common sense should. But this tiring refrain of "this is free" seems to have
become a mantra for many of the web sites around pertaining to Sim racing,
and frankly its begun to get on my nerves. A little while back I posted a
message saying the level of dedication had gone down at a certain web site,
and I received an email saying that "dedication" had nothing to do with it,
it was for this reason or that reason that the person had something else to
do. Well, if you have something else to do that gives you priority over
working on something for NASCAR 2, that means your level of dedication is
lower for NASCAR 2 than for the other thing. Thats not an insult, its
simply a statement of the obvious, isn't it?
All I hope for is if you are going to do something, you do your best to do
it right. If you are doing your best and it does not go according to plan,
its understandable. But to say something like, hey, I have a real life to,
and this is free anyways, I volunteered, so don't complain... its just
evading the commitment you made. I haven't seen many messages on web sites
saying, "Hey, we are having a little trouble providing what we hoped to,
sorry about that... if you wish to help out email us and we'll see what we
can do." In the days before the Internet became widespread, I ran a BBS,
and as a SysOp I worked hard to make things the best they could be. And
yeah, sometimes I had to put up with people who had no idea how much work
and dedication was involved in making such a system work and that complained
incessantly because THEY did not get what THEY wanted. But if the situation
was one where I screwed up, I always would do my best to correct the problem
and apologize... I would NOT turn around and say, hey, you don't pay for
this, what right have you to complain?
I happen to truly appreciate the IWCCCars project... as well as many other
sites, such as The Pits, Chris Fredericks Racing HQ, Sim ***world, and
others... NASCAR 1 was one of the primary reasons I signed up for Internet
access. I read about the availability of info, utilities, patches, etc., out
here and wanted to be a part of it. I've also tried to make my own small
contributions when I figure out some small piece of data in a track.txt or
make some race logos for ones that are missing. The thing to consider is
that this is a community, a society of sim racers, where hopefully anyone
with the skill will continue to contribute to make the sims better, and
where you will expect to find a small number of people among us who will
simply take and take and complain for no legitimate reason, but you will
also find many people who truly appreciate what the more skilled among us
has done to improve the community. You should expect that the majority that
do appreciate things also will say very little, which is a sad but true fact
of human nature.
Well, I'm getting off the point here... that being that a site being FREE
does not constitute an reason why things aren't getting done. I am not
saying that anyone owes anyone an explanation either, but one is always
appreciated. I would hope that most of us know that you don't HAVE to do
what you do at all, its not your job that we have a right to insist that you
do because we pay your salaries by buying your products or paying taxes...
generally thats pretty clear. Lets just stop falling back on this "I don't
get paid anything for this, so I don't HAVE to do it at all" reasoning... I
would hope you were doing it in the first place because you WANTED to... and
if you want to stop, you are free to do so. Naturally some people are going
to protest if you do, however!
I do want to express a heartfelt thanks to ALL the people who have
contributed to increasing my Sim enjoyment over the years, and I am not
going to single out one or two in particular... I want ANYONE who has ever
contributed anything to know that I, and many others, have always
appreciated the contributions. Anyone who has made a utility or car pcx
file or NASCAR 1 car set or NASCAR 2 car file or track... thank you. You
all know who you are, and you should feel good inside to have contributed.
I'm happy to help out in any way I can, if I have the ability... I always
wish to return the many favours owed to these dedicated people. But if I do
something and I***up, I will NOT make the excuse.. "Hey, I did it for
free, what do you expect?"
ST
Ok, let me preface this by saying this is totally my opinion and I have
no clue if Dave and the rest of the guys would agree with or even would
condone my opinion. That said, he we go...
The main problem is not dedication at all, its just a lack of time to
devote to the support of a game we all love. In a perfect world all the
guys would love to make any and every car for you guys, but obviously
that just isn't possible. The fact that Tony left (no offense to Tony
here) really doesn't mean a whole lot in the whole scheme of things.
More important is the fact that we've lost quite a few other guys for
various reasons. Factor in that I just do Q&A and Dave pretty much just
does the web admin stuff, and you'll see that we're pretty much down to
a skeleton crew. With jobs and other real life occurrences that must
take precedence over this game, we simply don't have the manpower
IWCCCARS once had. That's very unfortunate, even more so b/c it's the
public that ultimately suffers. However, of those of us left we try to
give whatever free time we have to the site no matter how little.
Now this part I'm pretty sure Dave wouldn't agree with, so this really
is just my opinion and I apologize in advance if I step on any toes or
offend anyone associated with the project. There are plenty of other
sites out there to get cars, so If you don't like the way ours is being
run (lack of updates, no enough selection, or whatever) by all means
feel free to look elsewhere. We're doing this as a service to those
people who, like ourselves, love this game. We try our best to give you
the kind of product that we are proud to attach our name to, and
hopefully its one that you want at no cost (despite what you would like
to believe money is a factor). If not, then please don't come ***ing
to me about it. Like I said before, currently we don't have the
resources (mainly man-power and time) to do much about it. Either learn
live with it, find a new site to get your cars from, or go out and try
to do it yourself.
--
Eric T. Busch
Akorn Access, Inc.
http://ebusch.akorn.net
>Today I went to the IWCCCars site and was rather disappointed to see
they
>had posted an editorial regarding the updates situation there (and more
or
>less carrying over into other areas as well)...
<SNIPPED WITH INDUSTRIAL GRADE CHAINSAW>
How long did it take you to type that?? you want to write my essays for
school?
--
Dave Otterness
(Complaints about lack of updates at free sites snipped for your
comfort)
1. You're not getting anywhere near MY kids on the baseball diamond.
2. In this world, there are doers and observers. Guess which one you
are?
3. You're entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is.
LC
"The Maine Racing Pages"
(A Free Nascar2 Site that doesn't get updated that often)
Why are you posting this message so many times? I wouldn't even think about
critisizing someone's website developed to help us racers, at their own
expense of time. The greatest gift anyone can give is time, and those guys
did so very unselfishly, and I am thankful for what they have done.
--
Don Burnette
Tons of snips!
On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 14:01:01 -0400, "SmallTalk"
... a lot about IWCC's editorial.
1) In the real world, work comes ahead of play most of the time. It
has to. The sim sites are a labor of love. Feeding the family comes
first. And some people who don't care about that write some *very*
*** letters to those folks. It's fair for IWCCARS to remind people
of that reality, for some out there don't realize it or care.
2) Doing a car well takes lots more time. As someone else said, there
are other sites. Other sites provide cars that are up faster and
provide greater variations of the cars, including one-shot cars that
were not driven by the "big guys" (esp. re BGN). They provide a
valuable service. Those cars are not usually as detailed and good as
IWCCARS' versions -- though there *are* exceptions once in a blue
moon. (Also, Chris Frederick's site has many cars that I prefer to
IWCCs versions for the WC series... I mix and match their cars
regularly. Both do some really good stuff.)
I think you blasted IWCCARS unfairly. They have their priorities in
order... make it good, and family and work come ahead of games.
Is someone saying that they can do it better??
What kind of fool complains over something that is free?
Sheesh.
--
Have a good one,
Rad
> HUGE SNIPPAGE about lack of frequent updates... >>
To Dave And The Crew At IWCCCARS:
Thanks so much for the cars you unselfishly provide. I for one am
grateful that someone does take their time and skill to paint cars
better than I could ever have the time/skill to. You owe me nothing,
but I owe you a lot of my enjoyment I find in the game of N2. Why,
every now and then, I'll be running along a straight stretch, and I'll
simply admire the cars in my line of vision: How authentic they look,
how much they add to my *** experience... there's that aggravatin'
Dale Jarrett (this guy wins waaay too much for us Pontiac lovers)...
there goes ol' Swervin' Irvin... you get the idea. Just remember, for
each one of us simmers that's a bit too impatient... there's many times
more that are very grateful for your efforts. Thanks again!!!
God Bless,
Andre
Well said, Eric.
Marc
Couldn't have said it any better.
Quoted text (19 lines)
> > HUGE SNIPPAGE about lack of frequent updates... >> > To Dave And The Crew At IWCCCARS: > Thanks so much for the cars you unselfishly provide. I for one am > grateful that someone does take their time and skill to paint cars > better than I could ever have the time/skill to. You owe me nothing, > but I owe you a lot of my enjoyment I find in the game of N2. Why, > every now and then, I'll be running along a straight stretch, and I'll > simply admire the cars in my line of vision: How authentic they look, > how much they add to my *** experience... there's that aggravatin' > Dale Jarrett (this guy wins waaay too much for us Pontiac lovers)... > there goes ol' Swervin' Irvin... you get the idea. Just remember, for > each one of us simmers that's a bit too impatient... there's many times > more that are very grateful for your efforts. Thanks again!!! > God Bless, > Andre<SNIP ... good explaination of why updates have been slow at
IWCCCARS that shouldn't even have been necessary>
Your too kind Eric!!!!
This reminds me of: A few weeks ago, at Jack In The Box, I
gave a "homeless looking" guy a dollar and he obnoxiously
COMPLAINED that it wasn't enough for a whole meal...
Shocked the heck out of me. All I could say was... "Find 2
more dumb suckers like me and you got a whole meal!".
I guess his argument was that since I commited to give then
I should give an amount that he thought was proper.
Mike Radler
Member - Hawaii Ace League http://www.dithots.org/hal
> For example, if you are involved
>in little league baseball, as I have been, and you have made a commitment to
>coach, do you have the right to say "Hey, I do this for free, so the parents
>have no right to complain if I***up"?
I am. Every year I say I'm not going to coach. I'll just help and
enjoy watching my son play. Every year, I get calls from the other
coaches saying "not enough parents have volunteered... yada yada".
Every year, I end up out there when I'd rather be home racing Nascar.
I have told whining parents that I hear the complaints of people who
contribute much clearer than those who just sit back and complain.
I always hope that will get more people helping out but it just usually
gets them to stop talking to me.... and that's ok too ;-)
Are you saying that IWCCCars has the responsibility of
sweating and working for you for free now ??? I wish I had
your lack on conscience... I'd be doing very good today!
Mike Radler
Member - Hawaii Ace League http://www.dithots.org/hal
>Today I went to the IWCCCars site and was rather disappointed to see they
>had posted an editorial regarding the updates situation there (and more or
>less carrying over into other areas as well).
<<<<<< Snippage due to Author's Stuck Send Button>>>>>>>>>>>>
First let me also say that as an IWCC team member the following views are my
own and are not reflective of the others.
I, like most of the SimRacing community, am a Diehard NASCAR fan(atic)
and love these games that Papyrus brought to us. There is nothing like
watching 4 hours of racing at Darlington on ESPN and then with the heart
rate still going, sit down for my turn at the wheel. I love this sport and I
enjoy the people associated with it, be it real or simulated.
But the point I want to say is this, I am the owner of the SimWorld
Online site and also run the NSRA League so I don't spend a whole lot of
time getting to actually race. I spend most of my free time painting cars
for others to enjoy and updating my sites. I have even less time when the
NSRA season is in full swing.
To the guy that wrote the initial post, who naturally did it
anonymously, I want to let you know a little about myself. I work 9pm to 5am
as a K9 Officer with the City Police 4 nights a week, and don't really have
a lot of free time. I balance this with spending time with my 8 year old
Daughter and looking for my third wife(figured I'd throw that in there). Add
to this the numerous times I have been injured at work because of the job I
do, actually I am just getting over a major dog bite to the arm, and you
will see that I don't have much time left.
Now you're wondering "what's you're point", well my "Point" is, I have
been doing the SimRacing thing for a long time and have never once ***ed
or complained about the cost or the unappreciative people or asked for
compensation. I do this because I love it as does anybody else with a
Website devoted to SimRacing. But when I saw your post, I actually wanted to
pull you through the computer screen. So my way to deal with this is to just
say what's on my mind. If you don't like the way a Site is updated or the
content on it, I have 2 words for you, "DON"T GO". Save us all the wasted
bandwidth of your whining posts.
Chris Thompson
SimWorld Online Director
http://www.sim-world.com
NSRA League Director
http://www.sim-world.com
IWCCCARS Design Team Member
[link lost in import]
I have to agree with Chris. I pay money to have my web page up. People dont
appreiciate what we are doing. It is meant for fun but alot of times you
know it isnt. Remember we are doing this for free. I have had emails of
webmasters who are geting together as I'm typing this working on a way to
charge YOU for cars, Utilities, etc! I know you wouldnt want that. So stop
talking all of the jaz and be happy with what you got, it may not last much
longer.
Ty
