TEN and Vaporware

A very good point was brought up about TEN and Nascar2. Nascar2 was packaged with TEN with the promise of a product being out soon OVER a year ago. Both Papyrus and TEN knew they were no where close to having a product, but jumped on the vaporware bandwagon to promote this. A lot of people Signed up for TEN last December on the falsehood that NROS would be out shortly. I have serious reservations about TEN, and Papyrus even when NROS comes out, which we still have no clear date when. Pushing deadlines is fine, and informing people of a product you're developing is also good. It whets the appetite. However, a lot of people were misled into joining TEN almost a year ago for NROS. Papyrus also promoted that NROS would soon be out. Thats ok when it's a product you plan on selling. However, a lot of people are paying money for TEN primarily to play NROS. Making a great sim alone doesn't make you a good company. It means you made a great sim. Misleading people, and selling something that doesn't exist makes you lose credibility. Since N2, Papyrus has yet to release another product, the NROS info all comes from Sean Butcher. But then seeing how Papyrus totally ignored TCP/IP with N2 even though the Internet is huge, and it's how its customers want the game speaks volumes Papyrus is a long way from ID or any other company that knows how to treat it's loyal customers, and who's concern is the quality of its stuff, and the love of creating games. This is obviously a business for the Sierra crew. Just my opinion. Richard ---- Senior System and Database Administrator Premiere Technologies, Inc - http://www.premierecom.com ---- For Internet based racing, visit the IGN: http://www.applink.net/rscott/ign/welcome.htm ---- "There are only two industries on this planet that would use a term like "user" for its customers: the computer industry and the drug cartels."

> > A very good point was brought up about TEN and Nascar2. Nascar2 was > > packaged with TEN with the promise of a product being out soon OVER a > > year ago. > No, it wasn't "OVER" a year ago that N2 was released. Usually I agree with you , Jim, but in this case...I believe you're splitting hairs in the above. I think he's refering to the pre-release marketing, rather than the actual release, but in either case, even though it's been out LESS than a year, you get the point. As for joining TEN specifally for NROS, they (TEN) were offering some great deal (I don't recall what it was, as I didn't join), so many people signed up, expecting to save $$$$ over their standard fees in anticipation of being able to race. Let's face it: the press made it sound like NROS was imminent, and if could sign up and save a few bucks... I don't get the point on this one.... ....or this one, either. Oh, oh, technical talk... :) Obviously, it's a business...but just as obvious is how bigger companies handle product support. Papy "seemed" better about this before they were bought, perhaps that's just "rose-colored" preception, but the general public seems to be in agreement here. Of course, being a smaller company with less releases, you're afforded the luxury of focusing on a couple products, rather than 50 or whatever. ---Sammy Marks

> A very good point was brought up about TEN and Nascar2. Nascar2 was > packaged with TEN with the promise of a product being out soon OVER a > year ago. No, it wasn't "OVER" a year ago that N2 was released. Why join TEN before NROS if that's all you want to play? It sounds like joining a country club that doesn't offer tennis yet and paying dues for a while until they offer tennis. Why not just wait until they offer what you want and then join? I don't see the fault on Papyrus for people deciding to join TEN for reasons that are illogical. Geez, it's been a whole 10 or 11 months and a smallish game company hasn't released a new title? What could possibly be wrong? What God-given right do you claim to get whatever information you desire directly from Papyrus? Papyrus (along with any other company or individual) has a right to decide how to handle its affairs regarding PR. Is there a standard TCP/IP stack for DOS? (I'm not aware of one...) How many (in percentage) of DOS machines support TCP/IP? How many support IPX? That's a pretty telling comparison. N2 is a DOS game. At the time it was released, there was no nice way to tell Win95 to get the hell out of the way and let a real-time game run in real-time. (AFAIK, there still isn't a perfect way.) Of course it's a business. Would you have it any other way? There's nothing stopping anyone from starting a non-"business" game company. Problem is, food, clothes and housing cost money; therefore, talented programmers don't tend to work for free for very long. Game companies without talented developers don't stick around very long. ID is every bit a business; that's how they pay their folk. People love to rail on and on about Sierra and EA as examples of "How not to do X, Y, or Z." Certainly quality titles have come from other companies, but a lot of crappy titles have come from other companies. Sierra and EA have had their hits and their misses. Both are concerned about the quality of their stuff and have employees who love creating games. (I'm sure both have employees that don't care about either as well...) ---Jim

N2 was released in 1996. November I believe. Ten started promoting NROS prior to that. The demo was out over a year ago. Well, why was N2 packaged with TEN and why were all the Papyrus web pages informing people NROS would be out Feb <then Mar, June, etc>. Also, TEN informed people that unless they joined by Dec 31 they would not get the 'preferred' pricing plan. Seeing how NROS was ~Feb-Mar release many joined TEN to get the lower pricing prior to Dec 31. They have had NROS on their page for a long time. Smallish? Seems like Sierra is one of the big dogs. It has nothing to do with a new title. It has to do with people joining an online service and paying good money for vaporware that STILL isn't out. If you bought and paid for a car, and then was told 1/2 the accessories wouldn't be there for another 11 months, wouldn't you be pissed? Same concept. Except software developers are exempt from normal business concepts. At least in your opinion. I'm a PAYING customer you arrogant ass. I pay for Papyrus' existence, as well as everyone else. How do you think Papyrus even exists? I don't demand to know what Papyrus is doing. But when I'm paying for a service, one deserves to know whats going on, right? I guess NROS is only a TEN endeavor, then. Everything about it is coming from TEN. You can run DOS games from Win95 with an Internet connection active. I play N2 while connected to the Internet right now. How many people have an IPX connection at home, vs TCP/IP? Papyrus did what was easier for them, not better for the customer. Perhaps it was a business decision. However, it would be nice to not be lied to and fed vaporware stories. There are also numerous TCP/IP stacks for DOS. The popularity of the Internet has been large long before N2 was released. Nope, but you miss the point of what makes THIS business successful. For a great example look at what Sierra has done to FPS titles. You obviously think software developers and games companies are exempt from common sense rules of business. You can't compare Software development, and especially game programming to other business. The concept is ludicrous. If a normal company had promised a deliverable and had people paying for it a year ahead of time, they'd go out of business. My complaint is of Papyrus and TEN's vaporware trail. Richard ---- Senior System and Database Administrator Premiere Technologies, Inc - http://www.premierecom.com ---- For Internet based racing, visit the IGN: http://www.applink.net/rscott/ign/welcome.htm ---- "There are only two industries on this planet that would use a term like "user" for its customers: the computer industry and the drug cartels."

Big snips coming up... > Obviously, it's a business...but just as obvious is how bigger companies > handle product support. Papy "seemed" better about this before they were > bought, perhaps that's just "rose-colored" preception, but the general > public seems to be in agreement here. Of course, being a smaller company > with less releases, you're afforded the luxury of focusing on a couple > products, rather than 50 or whatever. Yeah, Papy tech support was a LOT better, once you got through. (Papy couldn't afford fancy-pants faxback service, IVRs, and extended customer service hours.) This quality was mostly experience and because the tech support folks were 30 feet or so from the closest Papy engineer, rather than 3 time zones. This is one clear case where even the Papy supporters have to admit that Sierra looked at the numbers and made an pro-MBA type decision, rather than a pro-customer decision. In their defense, they do tech support WAY, WAY cheaper than Papy did, which is why they decided to move it out west. Another factor which was temporary and largely gone is that on the day of the cutover, lots of knowledge was embodied in their Watertown tech support staff, and very little in the Sierra replacements. This has gotten a lot better over time (based solely on hearsay from this group.) ---Jim

There has to come a time, that NRO will become to much of a burden to continue if problems with it are not resolved in a reasonable amount of time. The bean counters at Sierra will start screaming before long to either fix it or forget it. If they have not already. Would love to hear a reply from someone at Papy or Sierra on Ten and NRO, it seems to be too quite for a project that was suppose to be so great. And I speak after $1,200 of phone bills on Hawaii, that my Bean Counter (wife) yelled + WTF is this...

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>Big snips coming up... >> Obviously, it's a business...but just as obvious is how bigger companies >> handle product support. Papy "seemed" better about this before they were >> bought, perhaps that's just "rose-colored" preception, but the general >> public seems to be in agreement here. Of course, being a smaller company >> with less releases, you're afforded the luxury of focusing on a couple >> products, rather than 50 or whatever. >Yeah, Papy tech support was a LOT better, once you got through. (Papy >couldn't afford fancy-pants faxback service, IVRs, and extended >customer service hours.) This quality was mostly experience and >because the tech support folks were 30 feet or so from the closest >Papy engineer, rather than 3 time zones. >This is one clear case where even the Papy supporters have to admit >that Sierra looked at the numbers and made an pro-MBA type decision, >rather than a pro-customer decision. In their defense, they do tech >support WAY, WAY cheaper than Papy did, which is why they decided to >move it out west. >Another factor which was temporary and largely gone is that on the day >of the cutover, lots of knowledge was embodied in their Watertown tech >support staff, and very little in the Sierra replacements. This has >gotten a lot better over time (based solely on hearsay from this >group.) >---Jim

Need help:::::::::( In more ways then one. :| Here's my problem, well when I was born, Sorry wrong problem. Okay, I'm trying to convert Nascar tracks to Indycar2 tracks. I have done everything. When I start the process everything looks good. I see copy file ect. then at the end I get Error patching data file. Help please. or I will be forced to tell my life story. Greg "Pokey" Gash

Hey Hey!!! Is there a league (or few) operating for ICR1? If so, what are the addresses?? What is competition like?? (Competitive times at Australia?) What is required to race? (Besides internet, computer yadda yadda!!) What the hell does "BGN" stand for? (I'm new here!!) Are '97/'98 CART tracks for ICR1 available over the net?? (eg Gateway, Fontana, Homestead, yadda yadda) Thanks!! lee