Competitive against AI?

All, I've owned N2 for about 3 months now and I absoutely love it. I would like to pursue true online racing at some point but at the rate I'm progressing, it's probably not gonna happen anytime real soon. I don't know how many hours the typical N2 guy spends each week, but evidently I'm not spending enough time (I currently only race about 5 hours/week). I usually run about 40 practice laps before a race and then run races at 50% length. 98% is as high as I can raise the AI strength level and still remain somewhat competitive against the cars. At 99%, I get seriously blown away during the race and it's really not any fun. I've downloaded some of the setups from the Web and they've helped out, but at 99% I'm not even a factor. So...how many hours do you guys spend racing/practicing in order to compete at 100% (or higher)? I can't see even contemplating online racing until I get much better. Any suggestions on how to improve are appreciated! Thanks, Dale

% All, % I've owned N2 for about 3 months now and I absoutely love it. I would % like to pursue true online racing at some point but at the rate I'm % progressing, it's probably not gonna happen anytime real soon. I don't % know how many hours the typical N2 guy spends each week, but evidently % I'm not spending enough time (I currently only race about 5 % hours/week). I usually run about 40 practice laps before a race and % then run races at 50% length. % 98% is as high as I can raise the AI strength level and still remain % somewhat competitive against the cars. At 99%, I get seriously blown % away during the race and it's really not any fun. I've downloaded some % of the setups from the Web and they've helped out, but at 99% I'm not % even a factor. So...how many hours do you guys spend racing/practicing % in order to compete at 100% (or higher)? I can't see even contemplating % online racing until I get much better. % Any suggestions on how to improve are appreciated! There are many variables in this equation. First couple deal with "system" performance. Do what you must to get a frame rate that is smooth and consistant. I find that 20 frames per second is a "bare minimum" for racing sims. However, even this rate is a handicap. If you don't have a Rendition video card turn off graphic features until you achieve a good solid frame rate. The more frames per second the better your responses will be the competion and your driving. The next performance issue is input. If you are not using a wheel/pedal combination, get one. This not only translates to a "more" virtual experience, it also improves ones ability to control the car. Depending on the track this can be a major improvement in one's driving abilities. The next step is "human" peformance. This will come in the garage and practice times on the track. One really needs to understand the science of setting up a car for one's own driving style. While many of the setups found on the net are good for starting points, they all are different and will work differently with different driving styles. There are some excellent "setup" tips on the net (I'll let others point out where they lurk). Learn what different changes mean to your driving style. Only change one thing at a time and then practice on the track. Sometimes a change may not translate to an immediate improvement. Yet if one spends some time adapting their driving style to the car's new physics, it "may" actually improve performance. When setting up a car, I find it best to start with a fairly neutral or even a slightly tight setup for starters. This will give one a better sense of the track and the the "pefect" lines. Once you begin to achieve constant lap times, it's time to go to the garage and start tweaking the car. I usually find the first thing to look at is tire temps, make sure the temps are even across the tire (camber and tire pressure). Next I look at changing the front/rear weight balance. This setting highly affects the cars overall speed in the turns. I like to start loosening up the car, but still keeping it towards neutral. Go out to the track and see if you can improve your lap times. Give yourself some time to get used to the new feel of the car. Once you are comfortable with the performance in the turns, start directing your setup attention to the turns entrance. Work until you get a this down, then work on the exit of the turns. Then it's time to go back to the top and look at tire temps, front/rear weight, turn entrance and turn exits. When you have a good comfortable setup it's time to start learning how to drive faster. Practice, Practice, Practice. When working ovals start working on the entrance to turn 1. Find the perfect approach that will get you to the apex in good control. Don't even think about concentrating on anything else until you have entrance down. Next step is to start concentrating on the apex and the exit of the turn. Take the tracks one step at a time and keep working on improving just one aspect of the track at a time. Once you make it around the track, you will usually find it's time to go back to the garage and start tweaking some more. This process may take quite some time for the first few tracks. But as you absorb the setup and learning process, future tracks will become easier and quicker (oh, there will always be a track or two that will always be a challenge for you though). This process may be slow going, but like I said the lessons you learn at the first few tracks will make it a faster process as you progress. One last tip. Drive ahead of yourself. As you are heading down the front straight, vision your approach to the first turn. As you reach the first turn, vision your approach through the apex. As you reach the apex, vision your exit out of turn 2. If you can learn to drive this way lap after lap, you will find your lap times getting smaller and smaller. The other advatange to driving ahead is that you will be able to compensate and plan the attacks on the other drivers on the course when you get down to real racing. In case I forgot, practice, practice, practice... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

says... This is going to sound too short and sweet to be truly helpful, but I hope you can just trust that the magic formula you're looking for is in these five words: To go faster, slow down. Newcomers to NASCAR2 invariably start out trying to go too fast and that just doesn't work against the top 25% of the field (nor, of course, will it work against live online drivers). If your tires are doing anything beyond just barely starting to screetch in the corners, you're going too fast. Believe it or not, you can beat the AI at 100% on every track with the default ACE setups, you just have to learn control instead of speed. There's an extremely fine line between having and not having control in the corners. Mastering this sensitive threshold is the secret to successful racing. To newcomers, that always means slowing down. Usually, it means slowing down a LOT. One of the most effective exercises you can practice that teaches control is to go to a track in Practice mode and do nothing but drive around and around with your left wheels hugging the inside line for the entire time you're on the track. When you're doing this, going fast is NOT as important as keeping your tires glued to the inside line. Obviously, you should progressively try to go faster and faster, but NEVER NEVER NEVER let your tires leave the inside yellow line. You're learning to keep your tires on the yellow line FIRST, and you're learning to go faster SECOND. Remember that priority. The first time you do this, you'll be shocked at how much you have to slow down prior to (and while) entering a turn in order to keep your left tires on the inside yellow line. DO NOT LET YOUR TIRES SCREAM. It will probably feel like you're going WAY to slow compared to how you drive now, but that's the whole point: you're probably driving too fast right now and that's why you're not improving. If you're relatively new to NASCAR and you can't beat the AI at 98%, it's almost guaranteed that the reason is because you're going too fast. Slow down before and while entering the turn, "feather" your throttle through the turn, and find the "sweet spot" near the middle to end of the turn where you can get back on the gas coming out of the turn. Every turn is just a little different and you have to learn each one that you intend to master. Timing is absolutely critical; if you miss the sweet spot, don't make it worse by trying to make something good out of a bad entry. Admit to yourself that you screwed up and the best you can do is get back on your line and learn from whatever mistake caused you to deviate from it. Back off, get your car back under complete control, and then keep going. New drivers consistently try too hard to turn a bad situation into a lucky pass. Just forget it, you might get lucky once or twice in a whole race but much more often than not you're going to end up in a wall, into another car, or at the very least being passed by four or five cars instead of just one or two. In NASCAR, patience is not a virtue -- it's THE virtue. When you screw-up an entry to a turn, all you can do is recover and try to be a little smoother (read: slower) the next time around. If you can't seem to do that, then call your pit crew and tell them to get ready because you're about to have crash after crash after crash. Watch your speedometer closely and learn the maximum safe entry speed for all of the turns on the track you're practicing (Atlanta is an excellent track to start with). After you can consistently drive around the track as fast as possible while keeping your wheels down by the apron lap after lap (I'm talking a few hours of practice per track here), then slowly start moving away from the inside yellow line and start looking for the real racing line that you would use during a race. DO NOT do this after driving the yellow line for only 10-15 minutes. Drive the yellow line for at least TWO full hours, more if possible. None of the time spent down on the yellow line will be wasted. After you start moving up onto the rest of the track, it's absolutely imperative that you don't forget what you learned while you were driving around the yellow line -- don't forget how it felt when you could tell the car was almost starting to slip, but you were still keeping your left tires on the yellow line and your tires were still just barely (I mean BARELY) starting to whine. Don't forget how it felt when you were driving "the line" and you could just tell that you were far enough through a turn to give it the gas again. Don't forget how it felt when you got on the gas too early and you had to back off to keep your tires on the line or to prevent them from screaming. You're doing the same thing now, you're simply doing it a little faster on a new, more forgiving line that you can't necessarily see. Everything else remains the same, and everything you learned on the line still applies. To summarize, it's not really about how MUCH you practice. It's about how EFFECTIVELY you practice. Obviously, the more you practice effectively, the better you'll get, but if you're not practicing correctly, then you can drive for hundreds and hundreds of hours and never get over the 98% AI threshold. If you do what I've described above and if you literally take as much time learning the corners as I've prescribed, you'll be beating 100% AI cars at Atlanta by the end of your first four- or five-hour practice session, guaranteed (or your money back <g>). The thing that will amaze you the most is you'll discover what I said at the beginning of this message is indeed true: To go faster, slow down. When you hit a turn "just right" and pass that ol' number one car to take the checkered flag, you'll be amazed at how smoothly and slowly you were driving when it happened, which is what made the pass possible in the first place. Good luck, Rick

*snip* > 98% is as high as I can raise the AI strength level and still remain > somewhat competitive against the cars. At 99%, I get seriously blown > away during the race and it's really not any fun. I've downloaded *snip*

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> in order to compete at 100% (or higher)? I can't see even > contemplating online racing until I get much better. > Any suggestions on how to improve are appreciated! > Thanks, > Dale

It AI strength all depends on the track really, you should be able to beat the computer at 100% at Talladega ,C***te and Bristol. But will probably fall behind the computer at Atlanta, Sears Point, The Glen. If I can't run with the computer I try to beat it on pit strategy. Even if you are not competative in the race, stick to it, the more laps you get in on a track the better. I have won at every track at 100% using only the default ACE setup. These were 50% to 75% length races, so pit strategy comes into play. Also a lot of the times on the net are one lap wonder speeds. Although the people setting these speeds are amazing. The rest of us will just be *stellar*. Good Luck Remember....PRACTICE....PRACTICE....PRACTICE. -Jody-

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> Path: akron5.neo.lrun.com!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!207.14.113.2!news.alt.net!usenet > Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators > Subject: Competitive against AI? > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:50:23 -0600 > Organization: Altopia Corp. - Usenet Access - http://www.altopia.com > Lines: 23 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) > X-Priority: 3 (Normal) > All, > I've owned N2 for about 3 months now and I absoutely love it. I would > like to pursue true online racing at some point but at the rate I'm > progressing, it's probably not gonna happen anytime real soon. I don't > know how many hours the typical N2 guy spends each week, but evidently > I'm not spending enough time (I currently only race about 5 > hours/week). I usually run about 40 practice laps before a race and > then run races at 50% length. > 98% is as high as I can raise the AI strength level and still remain > somewhat competitive against the cars. At 99%, I get seriously blown > away during the race and it's really not any fun. I've downloaded some > of the setups from the Web and they've helped out, but at 99% I'm not > even a factor. So...how many hours do you guys spend racing/practicing > in order to compete at 100% (or higher)? I can't see even contemplating > online racing until I get much better. > Any suggestions on how to improve are appreciated! > Thanks, > Dale

R: Honestly IMO!! There's a point where you simply hit the wall. There are just people who can see and drive the line better no matter what. When NRO goes online check out the arcade mode races. There you will find a much evener race between greats and not so greats as the line isn't as small to run a wonderful lap. In this mode you will be competitve if you can avoid hitting others... Q.B.M.

this might go without saying for most but just in case, learn to drive without braking help on.

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> All, > I've owned N2 for about 3 months now and I absoutely love it. I would > like to pursue true online racing at some point but at the rate I'm > progressing, it's probably not gonna happen anytime real soon. I don't > know how many hours the typical N2 guy spends each week, but evidently > I'm not spending enough time (I currently only race about 5 > hours/week). I usually run about 40 practice laps before a race and > then run races at 50% length. > 98% is as high as I can raise the AI strength level and still remain > somewhat competitive against the cars. At 99%, I get seriously blown > away during the race and it's really not any fun. I've downloaded some > of the setups from the Web and they've helped out, but at 99% I'm not > even a factor. So...how many hours do you guys spend racing/practicing > in order to compete at 100% (or higher)? I can't see even contemplating > online racing until I get much better. > Any suggestions on how to improve are appreciated! > Thanks, > Dale

I race about 10 hours Mon-Fri and about 5 more hours on the weekend and can currently blow away the field at Talladega at 100% and am usually up front all day at Atlanta, C***te, Bristol and Darlington(I hate this track though). Setups can make a huge difference but so does just taking time to learn the track. Another important factor is just yourself, do you naturally drive good at a track or are you like me on Road Courses, struggling to make every turn?? -- PolePosition#3- IVGA #4882 Visit my pages: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/4578/index.html "If you don't believe, you don't belong." -- Alan Kulwicki's Credo

I've been racing on N1 and N2 and found the line through the corners and consistency is what will make you faster. It is better to have five consistent 45 second laps than to have four 44.9 seconds laps and one 46 second lap. Also, sometimes the Ace setup doesn't fit your driving style. For example, I drive a Monte Carlo and the Ace setup at Dover is so loose I can't even do 4 laps without spinning out, but my friend drives a Ford and says the Ace setup is perfect. Also, the Ace setup at Atlanta only makes me 15th best out of 39 cars. You need to set the car up so it is comfortable for your driving style. Also, learn the track first and then try to work on a setup. I see many posts asking for setups when they really don't know the fastest lines around the track. There are numerous pages on the internet on how to set up a car. Curtis

% says... % > Any suggestions on how to improve are appreciated! % This is going to sound too short and sweet to be truly helpful, but I % hope you can just trust that the magic formula you're looking for is in % these five words: % To go faster, slow down. <excellent lesson snipped> Just a note to say that for first timers, this is an excellent approach! Even if you aren't a first timer, you may find that you can find yourself the edge you need by giving this approach a try. Thanks for the excellent post! -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Try the Beginners Guide to NASCAR2 at www.mindspring.com/~jmbroeder/n2intro.htm

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>All, >I've owned N2 for about 3 months now and I absoutely love it. I would >like to pursue true online racing at some point but at the rate I'm >progressing, it's probably not gonna happen anytime real soon. I don't >know how many hours the typical N2 guy spends each week, but evidently >I'm not spending enough time (I currently only race about 5 >hours/week). I usually run about 40 practice laps before a race and >then run races at 50% length. >98% is as high as I can raise the AI strength level and still remain >somewhat competitive against the cars. At 99%, I get seriously blown >away during the race and it's really not any fun. I've downloaded some >of the setups from the Web and they've helped out, but at 99% I'm not >even a factor. So...how many hours do you guys spend racing/practicing >in order to compete at 100% (or higher)? I can't see even contemplating >online racing until I get much better. >Any suggestions on how to improve are appreciated! >Thanks, >Dale

Very true, start out with a basic setup and try to use differnet lines to fit the setup

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>I've been racing on N1 and N2 and found the line through the corners and >consistency is what will make you faster. It is better to have five >consistent 45 second laps than to have four 44.9 seconds laps and one 46 >second lap. Also, sometimes the Ace setup doesn't fit your driving style. >For example, I drive a Monte Carlo and the Ace setup at Dover is so loose I >can't even do 4 laps without spinning out, but my friend drives a Ford and >says the Ace setup is perfect. Also, the Ace setup at Atlanta only makes >me 15th best out of 39 cars. You need to set the car up so it is >comfortable for your driving style. Also, learn the track first and then >try to work on a setup. I see many posts asking for setups when they >really don't know the fastest lines around the track. There are numerous >pages on the internet on how to set up a car. >Curtis >> Any suggestions on how to improve are appreciated!

Mike, thanks for the detailed response. Your input (as was the email I received) is appreciated. Have to go practice...practice...practice...practice...practice...

Thanks to everyone that's replied to my question! Rick's suggestion to "slow down" sounds like the right approach to getting better. Regards, Dale

Rick, this was one of the most well explained renditions (no pun intended <G>) of this old song I've ever heard! This is very good advice indeed, and Dale would be smart to follow it. I'm a little bit further down the road than Dale and I'm approaching the point where the AI isn't going to be enough challenge soon (below 102% or so), but you have opened my eyes a bit too, and I'm going to follow your program and see if it can speed me up a little....Especially your emphasis of not letting the wheels screetch...I do that a little more than you suggest, so I have to see if I can back out a little more on entry....It's an old saw. "slow down to go faster" but it's true...you need to have faith! Thanks, for a thorough and thought provoking reply to Dale's question.....gotta go practice! Lou B. Rustbucket Racing Wreckless Racing

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> says... > > Any suggestions on how to improve are appreciated! > This is going to sound too short and sweet to be truly helpful, but I > hope you can just trust that the magic formula you're looking for is in > these five words: > To go faster, slow down. > Newcomers to NASCAR2 invariably start out trying to go too fast and that > just doesn't work against the top 25% of the field (nor, of course, will > it work against live online drivers). If your tires are doing anything > beyond just barely starting to screetch in the corners, you're going too > fast. Believe it or not, you can beat the AI at 100% on every track with > the default ACE setups, you just have to learn control instead of speed. > There's an extremely fine line between having and not having control in > the corners. Mastering this sensitive threshold is the secret to > successful racing. To newcomers, that always means slowing down. > Usually, it means slowing down a LOT. > One of the most effective exercises you can practice that teaches control > is to go to a track in Practice mode and do nothing but drive around and > around with your left wheels hugging the inside line for the entire time > you're on the track. When you're doing this, going fast is NOT as > important as keeping your tires glued to the inside line. Obviously, you > should progressively try to go faster and faster, but NEVER NEVER > NEVER let your tires leave the inside yellow line. You're learning to > keep your tires on the yellow line FIRST, and you're learning to go > faster SECOND. Remember that priority. > The first time you do this, you'll be shocked at how much you have to > slow down prior to (and while) entering a turn in order to keep your left > tires on the inside yellow line. DO NOT LET YOUR TIRES SCREAM. It will > probably feel like you're going WAY to slow compared to how you drive > now, but that's the whole point: you're probably driving too fast right > now and that's why you're not improving. If you're relatively new to > NASCAR and you can't beat the AI at 98%, it's almost guaranteed that the > reason is because you're going too fast. > Slow down before and while entering the turn, "feather" your throttle > through the turn, and find the "sweet spot" near the middle to end of the > turn where you can get back on the gas coming out of the turn. Every > turn is just a little different and you have to learn each one that you > intend to master. Timing is absolutely critical; if you miss the sweet > spot, don't make it worse by trying to make something good out of a bad > entry. Admit to yourself that you screwed up and the best you can do > is get back on your line and learn from whatever mistake caused you > to deviate from it. Back off, get your car back under complete control, > and then keep going. New drivers consistently try too hard to turn a bad > situation into a lucky pass. Just forget it, you might get lucky once or > twice in a whole race but much more often than not you're going to end up > in a wall, into another car, or at the very least being passed by four or > five cars instead of just one or two. In NASCAR, patience is not a > virtue -- it's THE virtue. When you screw-up an entry to a turn, all you > can do is recover and try to be a little smoother (read: slower) the next > time around. If you can't seem to do that, then call your pit crew and > tell them to get ready because you're about to have crash after crash > after crash. > Watch your speedometer closely and learn the maximum safe entry speed for > all of the turns on the track you're practicing (Atlanta is an excellent > track to start with). After you can consistently drive around the track > as fast as possible while keeping your wheels down by the apron lap after > lap (I'm talking a few hours of practice per track here), then slowly > start moving away from the inside yellow line and start looking for the > real racing line that you would use during a race. DO NOT do this after > driving the yellow line for only 10-15 minutes. Drive the yellow > line for at least TWO full hours, more if possible. None of the time > spent down on the yellow line will be wasted. > After you start moving up onto the rest of the track, it's absolutely > imperative that you don't forget what you learned while you were driving > around the yellow line -- don't forget how it felt when you could tell > the car was almost starting to slip, but you were still keeping your left > tires on the yellow line and your tires were still just barely (I mean > BARELY) starting to whine. Don't forget how it felt when you were > driving "the line" and you could just tell that you were far enough > through a turn to give it the gas again. Don't forget how it felt when > you got on the gas too early and you had to back off to keep your tires > on the line or to prevent them from screaming. You're doing the same > thing now, you're simply doing it a little faster on a new, more > forgiving line that you can't necessarily see. Everything else remains > the same, and everything you learned on the line still applies. > To summarize, it's not really about how MUCH you practice. It's about > how EFFECTIVELY you practice. Obviously, the more you practice > effectively, the better you'll get, but if you're not practicing > correctly, then you can drive for hundreds and hundreds of hours and > never get over the 98% AI threshold. If you do what I've described above > and if you literally take as much time learning the corners as I've > prescribed, you'll be beating 100% AI cars at Atlanta by the end of your > first four- or five-hour practice session, guaranteed (or your money back > <g>). The thing that will amaze you the most is you'll discover what I > said at the beginning of this message is indeed true: To go faster, slow > down. > When you hit a turn "just right" and pass that ol' number one car to take > the checkered flag, you'll be amazed at how smoothly and slowly you were > driving when it happened, which is what made the pass possible in the > first place. > Good luck, > Rick

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>There are many variables in this equation. ... >The next step is "human" peformance. This will come in the garage and >practice times on the track. One really needs to understand the science >of setting up a car for one's own driving style. ... > Don't even think about concentrating on anything else until you have entrance down. Next step >is to start concentrating on the apex and the exit of the turn. Take >the tracks one step at a time and keep working on improving just one >aspect of the track at a time. ... >Once you make it around the track, you will usually find it's time to go >back to the garage and start tweaking some more. ... >One last tip. Drive ahead of yourself. ... >In case I forgot, practice, practice, practice... >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Very good post, Michael. You can tell you race in real-life. This is EXACTLY how it is when you are racing! Only other thing I would add... CONCENTRATE!

There have defintely been some great posts here. Thought I might add one more spin to it for those that still feel slow down to go faster is a bit ambiguous. Its basically the cars reaction to your actions. Jamming the on the brakes entering the turn is going to upset the car, jumping back on the throttle at the apex, is going to upset the car. We all know that looser is faster but you have to learn to work the throttle and the brakes. The smoother you are, the faster you're going to go and save the tires as well. I practise this by going to the tracks that IMHO require it the most; Richmond and Marty. If you car is loose at Marty, you're going to loop the car coming out of the turns if you dont practise throttle management and just as important, counter steering. Almost like dirt tracking, but you'll find that turning the wheel to the right as you're exiting the turns actually helps to turn left. I found this out by practising <G>. Regards, Bob For setups that smoke the AI at 100% and last a full tank goto; [link lost in import] All BLAPS recorded in the setup files were done using 70 degrees, no wind, Chevy chasis and before lap 10. These are good race setups, not one lap wonders.