Question for Jim Sokoloff!!!!

Jim: What is it with NASCAR and the way it interfaces with control devices??? When I use my standard sound card and its joystick port I run 186's at Michigan, but when I run with my ACM game card I run 188's. The traction seems so much better with the ACM card. When I go back to the Sound Card.. Back to 186's Don Wilshe

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> Jim: > What is it with NASCAR and the way it interfaces with control devices??? > When I use my standard sound card and its joystick port I run 186's at > Michigan, but > when I run with my ACM game card I run 188's. The traction seems so > much better > with the ACM card. When I go back to the Sound Card.. Back to 186's > Don Wilshe

just wondering,,,is this that little 30 dollar card, that a lot of places are discontinuing ? or is there a better one? I have started to buy the acm card several times, but didn't think anything so inexpensive could really help so much :) -- Sit down,Strap in,Shut up,Hang on,Go fast,Turn left,,,Kiss Trophy Girl GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,, Handy^man

> When I use my standard sound card and its joystick port I run 186's at > Michigan, but > when I run with my ACM game card I run 188's. The traction seems so > much better > with the ACM card. When I go back to the Sound Card.. Back to 186's I haven't seen this. Have you tried a blind test to support this? (Had someone else swap the cards and calibrate the controller without your knowledge.) I can assure you there's no "if (Expensive_Control_Card) {traction *= 2 But, a better control calibration could well result in faster lap times. ---Jim

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> > When I use my standard sound card and its joystick port I run 186's > at > > Michigan, but > > when I run with my ACM game card I run 188's. The traction seems so > > much better > > with the ACM card. When I go back to the Sound Card.. Back to 186's > I haven't seen this. Have you tried a blind test to support this? (Had > someone else swap the cards and calibrate the controller without your > knowledge.) > I can assure you there's no "if (Expensive_Control_Card) {traction *= > 2 > }" code in there... :-) > But, a better control calibration could well result in faster lap > times. > ---Jim

Jim: I think the key to fast times might be the RESPONSE TIME of the control card. Some pots are fast and some are slow. The analog would can do some creepy things... Digital control cards could improve it better. There is some thing in the NASCAR CODE that allows one to run faster if you have a great graphics rate and a very fast response on the control side of the system.. Don

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> > Jim: > > What is it with NASCAR and the way it interfaces with control devices??? > > When I use my standard sound card and its joystick port I run 186's at > > Michigan, but > > when I run with my ACM game card I run 188's. The traction seems so > > much better > > with the ACM card. When I go back to the Sound Card.. Back to 186's > > Don Wilshe > just wondering,,,is this that little 30 dollar card, that a lot of > places are discontinuing ? or is there a better one? > I have started to buy the acm card several times, but didn't think > anything so inexpensive could really help so much :) > -- > Sit down,Strap in,Shut up,Hang on,Go fast,Turn left,,,Kiss Trophy Girl > GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,, > Handy^man

Yes, that's the one. It does help. All you have to do is calibrate your wheel and watch the needle jump all over the place without the card, but be very stable with it. What do you think that jumping around does in the game? Dana Bailes

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> > When I use my standard sound card and its joystick port I run 186's at > > Michigan, but > > when I run with my ACM game card I run 188's. The traction seems so > > much better > > with the ACM card. When I go back to the Sound Card.. Back to 186's > I haven't seen this. Have you tried a blind test to support this? (Had > someone else swap the cards and calibrate the controller without your > knowledge.) > I can assure you there's no "if (Expensive_Control_Card) {traction *= 2 > }" code in there... :-) > But, a better control calibration could well result in faster lap times. > ---Jim

Jim, I DID a balanced statistical experiment comparing my times with a T2 hooked to an AWE32 and then to a CH products gamecard 3. The population differences were significant and my lap times were better. I won't bore you with the math :-) A dedicated controller card does indeed help with faster systems. I bought the CH because Don recommended it. Even Pappy HIGHLY recommends using a dedicated card with the sim. Regards, Harry

Could the sound card skip or miss some opportunities to sample your input? Could the fancy sound card somehow sample with a higher frequency? Inquiring minds need to know...

<MAJOR snippage> Any of you guys know of a place I can pick up one of the little ACM cards? Like a web site or something? Thanks... Andre

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> > > Jim: > > > What is it with NASCAR and the way it interfaces with control devices??? > > > When I use my standard sound card and its joystick port I run 186's at > > > Michigan, but > > > when I run with my ACM game card I run 188's. The traction seems so > > > much better > > > with the ACM card. When I go back to the Sound Card.. Back to 186's > > > Don Wilshe > > just wondering,,,is this that little 30 dollar card, that a lot of > > places are discontinuing ? or is there a better one? > > I have started to buy the acm card several times, but didn't think > > anything so inexpensive could really help so much :) > > -- > > Sit down,Strap in,Shut up,Hang on,Go fast,Turn left,,,Kiss Trophy Girl > > GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,, > > Handy^man > Yes, that's the one. It does help. All you have to do is calibrate > your wheel and watch the needle jump all over the place without the > card, but be very stable with it. What do you think that jumping around > does in the game? > Dana Bailes

yeah, that "jumping around" really costs on lap times, I imagine... <writing on his weekend "to do" list> Get Acm Game card Practice practice practice :) thanks :) -- Sit down,Strap in,Shut up,Hang on,Go fast,Turn left,,,Kiss Trophy Girl GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,, Handy^man

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> > > Jim: > > > What is it with NASCAR and the way it interfaces with control devices??? > > > When I use my standard sound card and its joystick port I run 186's at > > > Michigan, but > > > when I run with my ACM game card I run 188's. The traction seems so > > > much better > > > with the ACM card. When I go back to the Sound Card.. Back to 186's > > > Don Wilshe > > just wondering,,,is this that little 30 dollar card, that a lot of > > places are discontinuing ? or is there a better one? > > I have started to buy the acm card several times, but didn't think > > anything so inexpensive could really help so much :) > > -- > > Sit down,Strap in,Shut up,Hang on,Go fast,Turn left,,,Kiss Trophy Girl > > GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,, > > Handy^man > Yes, that's the one. It does help. All you have to do is calibrate > your wheel and watch the needle jump all over the place without the > card, but be very stable with it. What do you think that jumping around > does in the game? > Dana Bailes

Dana, Hypothetical number for discussion purposes. Without an ACM card. Range: 500-1500 With an ACM card. Range: 100-300 Lets assume we are talking about a T2 with 270 degrees of turn lock to lock. It also has I believe a 10" diameter wheel. circumference of the wheel is 31.42" We can only use 3/4 of the rotation, so any given point on the wheel can move a total of 23.56" Given your resolution range is 200 units, each unit represents ~1/8" of movement. With a range of 1000 units each unit represents ~1/40" of movement. At some point it is overkill. As long at the ACM is more then 5x as stable (in this example) then without the ACM, it doesn't help control the vehicle and better. It however may be more Win95 friendly. Lord knows Win95 itself doesn't reciprocate. mykey

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> > > When I use my standard sound card and its joystick port I run 186's > > at > > > Michigan, but > > > when I run with my ACM game card I run 188's. The traction seems so > > > much better > > > with the ACM card. When I go back to the Sound Card.. Back to 186's > > I haven't seen this. Have you tried a blind test to support this? (Had > > someone else swap the cards and calibrate the controller without your > > knowledge.) > > I can assure you there's no "if (Expensive_Control_Card) {traction *= > > 2 > > }" code in there... :-) > > But, a better control calibration could well result in faster lap > > times. > > ---Jim > Jim: > I think the key to fast times might be the RESPONSE TIME of the > control card. Some pots are fast and some are slow. The analog > would can do some creepy things... Digital control cards could > improve it better. There is some thing in the NASCAR CODE > that allows one to run faster if you have a great graphics rate and > a very fast response on the control side of the system..

No, it's just you! If the fps are high and the joystick port responds to your input in a more precise rate you are able to drive more precise -> your lap times get better. In ICR2 I always had better lap times in VGA than SVGA, until I got my Rendition card 8^). l8er ronny -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:38:25 -0700, Lonnie Andre Ming

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><MAJOR snippage> >> > just wondering,,,is this that little 30 dollar card, that a lot of >> > places are discontinuing ? >> Yes, that's the one. It does help. >Any of you guys know of a place I can pick up one of the little ACM >cards? Like a web site or something? >Thanks... >Andre

check out the TM web site. Also if you have a software etc in a mall, they usually have them, although they charge waaaay tooo much. Good luck Dave Henrie #99 The Pits Touring Car Championship

% Hypothetical number for discussion purposes. % Without an ACM card. Range: 500-1500 % With an ACM card. Range: 100-300 % Lets assume we are talking about a T2 with 270 degrees of turn lock to % lock. % It also has I believe a 10" diameter wheel. % circumference of the wheel is 31.42" % We can only use 3/4 of the rotation, so any given point on the wheel can % move a total of 23.56" % Given your resolution range is 200 units, each unit represents ~1/8" of % movement. % With a range of 1000 units each unit represents ~1/40" of movement. % At some point it is overkill. % As long at the ACM is more then 5x as stable (in this example) then % without the ACM, it doesn't help control the vehicle and better. % It however may be more Win95 friendly. Lord knows Win95 itself doesn't % reciprocate. Nice theory, but it doesn't work in the real ***/sim world. Why, because the software doesn't work that way. I think the original spec for the PC gameport called for a range of 0-300. Alot of the software still uses this spec when polling the gameport. However, quality programs like Papyrus' sims and GP2 try to compensate for this with their routines. That is why many people haven't seen a need for a dedicated game card if they are using a quality programmed sim. But, there is still a downside. The faster the PC the wider the range reported by a non-adjustable gameport card. The higher the range the less "exact" the reading will be. For the sims to take a range of 0-1000 it must "massage" it back down to a range somewhere along 0-300. Therefore the readings are either "averaged" or some of them are simply tossed out. Again, if the joystick routine is written well, the results can be fairly well translated. However, the results are not an accurate sampling of the human's input with the wheel or pedals. That's where a speed adjustable gamecard comes into play. I basically only use my gameport for top notch sims (NASCAR/NASCAR2, ICR1/ICR2, GP1/GP2). So for years I never saw the need to get a dedicated gamecard. But after upgrading my P5-90 to a P5-166 with a faster motherboard, I began to see a need for dedicated gamecard. I got Thrustmaster's ACM card and did find I had better control of my car in NASCAR2/ICR2/GP2. Was it enough to turn me into a Jeff Gordon from a Dave Marcis? Nope, but it was enough to give me the precision I needed to gain an edge over my previous times. I also found that it was less frustrating when pushing the envelope of the car's abilities. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

So what you are saying is the ACM helps out if the software "sucks"? Actually the bios (atleast those in my computers), and probably other early joystick methods considers a reading above ~512 to be a timeout and reports a 0. N2 has a few different ways of reading the Joystick. The Pentium method which uses the RTSCD (sp) which reports the exact clock cycles. Another method which appears to use the timer normally used for the onboard speaker. and finally a call to the Bios. If your Win95 joystick drivers aren't proper it's possible to end up using the bios. I ran into that problem trying to help a friend. Why? Less "exact" only applies if the (noise level)/range without the ACM is larger than for with the ACM. Again, if your reading bounces back and forth between some point plus or minus 1 unit with a range of 200 units, and mine bounces back and forth between some point plus or minus 5 units with a range of 1000 units then we have the SAME "exactness" I agree it needs to be massaged, just not to the 0-300, I would think something more like 0-100% but a unit may not represent 1%. It may be a 0.25% units. The other word for "massage" would be scaled. Just because they are massaged doesn't mean that have to be averaged, or Tossed. Averaging, or "tossing" implies lowering the effective sample rate. ??? If you put your throttle at 75%, doesn't your method conclude you are effectivly at 75% (or 225 in your 0-300 range). I would get a reading of 1250 in my range of 500-1500. I've got a P5-166, a rendition, and a SB16. My range is actually something like 300-1300 for the wheel. The needle bounces about 1-2 units plus or minus. The factor that is unknown (to us mear mortals) is the resolution of the physics model. How many unique steering wheel positions are there considered for programs like N1, N2, ICR2, etc. If they happen to scale into a floating point number, the more resolution of the controller the better. If you read what Thrustmasters gives as reasons for why the ACM helps it has to do with problems related to inferior hardware. i.e. heat problems. *IF* ACM helps out for N2, ICR2, etc, it's not because of the range of the joystick, but because of the Military spec parts used. Each week I improve over my previous times. But this is due to Setup adjustments, and seat time. When we can finally get a decient online race, we will get a new target to shoot for. Fast enough to keep close without burning up the tires hoping to pass when the other's cars fade. > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

A lot of probably very correct stuff snipped The only thing I can add here is; I`m currently testing an ACM-card to try and solve my GP1+CHPedals probs in Win95(Thanks to all of you who replied by mail and to this group), and I have to say that I can drive much smoooother now, not faster at the moment, because none of my setups is any good anymore, they`re not bad, but if you get different reactions from a certain input you need to adjust you setups and/or your driving, but I have to say that I can drive more consistent now, it doesn`t show up at tracks like Watkins Glen but at Long Beach(yes I`m in the TPTCC) I can keep the car off the walls with just inches to spare while driving flat out, so I guess this would help at ovals too. So to all my competitors in the TPTCC, look out, I won`t be faster, but much more consistent :-) And to those who are wondering; no I still can`t get the blasted things to work in Win95, so I will not be racing at Kali yet :-( Beers and cheers Goy

Hello fellow TPTCCer... I'll have to check the web site, but I'm betting your above me....:) Dave Henrie #99 The Pits Touring Car Championship

> The factor that is unknown (to us mear mortals) is the resolution of the > physics model. > How many unique steering wheel positions are there considered for > programs like N1, N2, ICR2, etc. As many as you have calibration values in your joystick. (In other words, the internal domain of the physics' tire slip angle model exceeds the domain of joystick input values. Integer math already has more range than current controllers, at least for Papy sims. (But you're right, floating point has even more excess range...) ---Jim

> The factor that is unknown (to us mear mortals) is the resolution of the > physics model. How many unique steering wheel positions are there > considered for programs like N1, N2, ICR2, etc. > If they happen to scale into a floating point number, the more > resolution of the controller the better. 1024, until GPL which I suspect is using a float. Charlie Heath / Papyrus