BUYER BEWARE

Lately, I've been getting all e***d about the possibilities before me, and been trying to decide on various upgrades for my PBell P75. Today, I stopped by three computer shops to inquire about this and that... and I've learned there's two very important phrases that those of us that want more from our computers had better learn, and learn well: 1. Proprietory System 2. Open Archetecture The first phrase is BAD NEWS for owners of PBell, Acer, etc (essentially any system bought from a department store). Basically it means that these systems ARE upgradable (for the most part) IF you use the mfg's parts. That is, if I want to upgrade just one item in my PB... then I must use a PB product. Plus, most "proprietory systems" use integrated cards that WILL NOT allow "outside" add-ons etc. Example: Most PB modems are part of the sound card. So... forget bringing that 122 kazillion baud modem card home and installing it. Sheez... even my lousy tower CASE can't be reused... it's "dedicated" to fit PB Boards! No problem you say? Just buy a PB mainboard "upgrade"? Sure... spend $900 for a PB board that would only cost $250 for a machine that uses the "open archetecture" format. No thanks. Needless to say, that pulls the plug on my PBell upgrade. Now I've got to decide if the time has come to lay out some serious $$$ to have my own system built USING THE "OPEN ARCHETECTURE" format... or continue to sit and let all the neat stuff pass me by. I will NEVER again buy a "proprietory system"... I don't give a rip whose name is on it. And I urge you to investigate for yourselves BEFORE your next purchase. announced that they are being forced to start loping off "low end" modem users. "We" are tying up too much bandwidth with our "slow" modems. First to go are 14.4 baud users (me). Pitty the fools of us that are using "propietory systems" when we can no longer access the net and are told by our ISP that we must go buy a faster modem... only to discover we can't use it in our system! Bummed... Andre

<SNIP> Not necessarily.... You can use BOTH in the computer at the same time if you have an open COM port. (OK, I don't mean you have both modems connected to the ph line at the same time... just in the comp.) Sheez... even my Yip. S.O.L. ...and it sucks! From experience I can tell you what I did. My Pack Hell was just that- HELL to upgrade. I DID put an AMD 5x86 133 in it, which helped it considerably. You can change CPU's, but with PB motherboards it MIGHT require a little soldering work to actually get the new CPU up to full speed. It seems PB doesn't always use all the jumpers that SHOULD be on the board! ...Then there is the BIOS prob..... A new Hard drive should be easily installed. I have a Maxtor 2.1 gig and that install went fairly easy. Video card... In a Pack Bell... hmmmmm good luck. I actually got an Intense 3D to work BUT it meant NOT following PB's instructions on jumpers.... My final thought was to 'salvage' the usable parts (Both hard drives, modem/soundcard, CD ROM, Floppy, Monitor, Keyboard, mouse...) and get a new motherboard (I got an inexpensive BIOSTAR), I got a MiniTower from a friend, although you should be able to find one CHEAP ($50 or less) at a computer show or check Computer Shopper Mag. I bought a Cyrix P 150+ and promptly overclocked it to be a 166+. I then put it all together with no problem. I've since added a 33.6 modem and still have my old Aztech/PB modem soundcard installed. I still use the older modem for my voice mail and faxing. ...getting to the point: There are a lot of pieces that you can use from your PB should you decide to upgrade. And these pieces will perform just as well (or better) in your new system. Check http://www.pricewatch.com for some deals on upgrades. The MB/Cyrix 166+ and 200+ combos are VERY inexpensive now.Even the Intel CPU's are cheaper than just a few months back. I never had a problem with my AMD 5x86 133 and I've seen mainly good reports on the K6.... I'm happy with my system as is.... but those K6's are looking mighy inviting!!! ;o) Good Luck, Alan http://www.kiva.net/~akh/simshop.html <SNIP>

Seriously consider going with a custom built system from either Dell or Micron. I recently ordered a Dell p233 mmx system through their website, was able to specify all the hardware components, and had it within 7 days. I have been extememly satisfied with their customer service, very helpful folks. A friend of mine ordered a Micron about the same time as I did, he also got the p233 mmx, and has had similar results. I compared ordering the components and building it myself, and really could not have saved enough money to worry about. I know what you mean about the PB system, I had a PB p-90 before this. Even if you just got a 166 or 200 mmx, you'd see a major performance increase with the 66 mhz bus speed versus the 60 mhz bus speed of your Pb. Also specify 512kb external or level 2 cache, your system probably has 256 kb, another big perfomance booster. Good luck, Don Burnette snip snip snip

Dude, dont get your panties in a wad. I have a PB 2220, and just because the modem and sound card are built onto the motherboard doesnt mean you cant upgrade. I have added both a 56K modem and a Screamin 3D video card to my system. All ya have to do is disable the your older peripherals in the control panel/device manager window. Just click on whatever peripheral you want to disable, then click on properties, then where it says "disable hardware" or whatever.....just check the box. That's it! I have had my PB 200MMX since April of this year and have been very happy with it.....contrary to popular belief. And you can get PB's and other "department store" computers usually cheaper than ordering one and paying shipping.

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> Lately, I've been getting all e***d about the possibilities before me, > and been trying to decide on various upgrades for my PBell P75. Today, I > stopped by three computer shops to inquire about this and that... and > I've learned there's two very important phrases that those of us that > want more from our computers had better learn, and learn well: > 1. Proprietory System > 2. Open Archetecture > The first phrase is BAD NEWS for owners of PBell, Acer, etc (essentially > any system bought from a department store). Basically it means that > these systems ARE upgradable (for the most part) IF you use the mfg's > parts. That is, if I want to upgrade just one item in my PB... then I > must use a PB product. Plus, most "proprietory systems" use integrated > cards that WILL NOT allow "outside" add-ons etc. Example: Most PB > modems are part of the sound card. So... forget bringing that 122 > kazillion baud modem card home and installing it. Sheez... even my > lousy tower CASE can't be reused... it's "dedicated" to fit PB Boards! > No problem you say? Just buy a PB mainboard "upgrade"? Sure... spend > $900 for a PB board that would only cost $250 for a machine that uses > the "open archetecture" format. No thanks. > Needless to say, that pulls the plug on my PBell upgrade. Now I've got > to decide if the time has come to lay out some serious $$$ to have my > own system built USING THE "OPEN ARCHETECTURE" format... or continue to > sit and let all the neat stuff pass me by. I will NEVER again buy a > "proprietory system"... I don't give a rip whose name is on it. And I > urge you to investigate for yourselves BEFORE your next purchase. > announced that they are being forced to start loping off "low end" modem > users. "We" are tying up too much bandwidth with our "slow" modems. > First to go are 14.4 baud users (me). Pitty the fools of us that are > using "propietory systems" when we can no longer access the net and are > told by our ISP that we must go buy a faster modem... only to discover > we can't use it in our system! > Bummed... > Andre

Actually the other-way around. Competition is high, and mail order outlets generally pay far less overhead. You can find a mail order P-II/266 ($2495.00 or less) for the price of a dept. store 200MMX, and get "more goodies" to boot (pun intended). Cheers! Marc

blah, blah, blah. I don't get it. The PB machines have standard expansion slots. You can cheerfully plug in any brand Z modem into one of those slots and use it. You may wish to disable the built-in modem and it's attachment to COM2, or you may not. This is hardly a unique to-PB phenomenon. My Hewlett Packard pavilion also has integrated S3 video that I can't disable, apparently; it's putting me off of buying a rendition card, since I'm not positive I can use it. Similarly, the HP has an integrated sound/joystick card. I wouldn't *expect* to be able to drop a new 3rd-party motherboard in and have it fit. If I wanted to expand, I'd think about buying a new minitower with a new motherboard, and reuse the peripherals. But frankly, by the time you do all of that, you might as well buy whatever you can on this years refurb/old-model market for $800. Last time I looked, this bought you a 200Mhz pentium with a 2G drive, 28.8 modem, and at least 16M of memory, put together with a warranty. And if you do this, you have your old machine to give to your nephew when you want to blow him away with a net game to show him how it is done. -dB -- "It's hard to find a black cat in a dark room. | David Brower

Uh.....my department store 200MMX was $1599

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> Lately, I've been getting all e***d about the possibilities before me, > and been trying to decide on various upgrades for my PBell P75. Today, I > stopped by three computer shops to inquire about this and that... and > I've learned there's two very important phrases that those of us that > want more from our computers had better learn, and learn well: > 1. Proprietory System > 2. Open Archetecture

<blah blah blah SNIP> Here's a reply I recieved from PBell when I asked the same question.. --- "Dear Packard Bell Customer - Packard Bell computers are designed to be upgraded with industry standard components. This includes modems, sound cards and video cards. However, we do not maintain a list of hardware which is compatible with your computer. Also, we are not able to recommend changes or upgrades for you to make to the computer. We would suggest that you consult with your local computer dealer or contact the other manufactures regarding other products which you may add to your system. We can provide specific information concerning upgrading your RAM, CPU, video memory, or BIOS. On the PB680 motherboard there is no way to disable the on-board video either by jumpers or CMOS setup. It may be possible to disable the on-board video in Windows 95 by going to Start, Settings, System, Device Manager, Display Adapter, Properties and remove the check mark from Original Configuration...." --- I haven't tried installing a new video card yet.. but as soon as I find one that I like and can afford I will probably try to put it in.. and if it doesn't work, take it back, it's that simple.. -- Dave Otterness

But you can't play N2 on it tonight. :) Actually, here's my take: 1) Mail order is usually cheaper than most mass-outlet stores, or more features, or both. But the price gap drops (sometimes to nothing) with some mail order companies. I can get more in pure components (CPU, video, memory, HD, modem and SW) at my local stores than at Dell, for example. 2) With mass--market PCs, always watch for upgradability if that matters to you -- meaning if you have the know-how to upgrade. PB is the worst to upgrade, by far (though a modem upgrade is pretty easy even in a PB). But all 3 desktops is my office are store-bought mass-market PCs (of necessity -- my business means we can't be down long). The two DEC computers are as upgradable as any system, and my Toshiba Infinia only slightly less so (the architecture is no problem; the lack of free IRQs is a much bigger one). 3) The video in most mass-market PCs isn't going to cut it for high-end gamers.

I have an Axcel 833CD (100mzh). Installed an Screamer3D with no problems using the unmarking Original Configuration. It still shows up on the Device Manager, but as "disabled in hardware" Also have added a new sound card and modem with no problems too. Just don't see why so many people have problems, other than about 75% of problems that do exist for both hardware and software - people don't read their manuals. Still waiting for this question "How do I start NASCAR2?" or maybe "How do I install NASCAR2?"

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> Lately, I've been getting all e***d about the possibilities before me, > and been trying to decide on various upgrades for my PBell P75. Today, I > stopped by three computer shops to inquire about this and that... and > I've learned there's two very important phrases that those of us that > want more from our computers had better learn, and learn well: > 1. Proprietory System > 2. Open Archetecture

this is a lesson to all. you learn the first time after you buy the absolute worst computer on the market: packard bell. one out of every 5 out of the box does not work. they use the cheapest components they can. they charge too much. they attract first time buyers because usually the first time buyer doesn't look at computer mags and realize what better systems they can get through mail order. do yourself a favor and dump that system and upgrade to a new system through mail order (micron, dell, gateway are good) or build your own system. just my thoughts, john

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCC9F2.62C9EB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I upgraded to the ATI XPRESSION+ PC2TV. All I had to do was install it and the old video (card) was disabled automatically. There is no need to disable it yourself. I have had no problems with the card or system. By the way, I like my PB and would recommend it to anybody. Just MY thoughts. -- Blake > Lately, I've been getting all e***d about the possibilities before me, > and been trying to decide on various upgrades for my PBell P75. Today, I > stopped by three computer shops to inquire about this and that... and > I've learned there's two very important phrases that those of us that > want more from our computers had better learn, and learn well: > 1. Proprietory System > 2. Open Archetecture this is a lesson to all. you learn the first time after you buy the absolute worst computer on the market: packard bell. one out of every 5 out of the box does not work. they use the cheapest components they can. they charge too much. they attract first time buyers because usually the first time buyer doesn't look at computer mags and realize what better systems they can get through mail order. do yourself a favor and dump that system and upgrade to a new system through mail order (micron, dell, gateway are good) or build your own system. just my thoughts, john ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCC9F2.62C9EB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> <HTML> <HEAD> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1008.3"' name=3DGENERATOR> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff> <P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;I upgraded to the = ATI XPRESSION+=20 PC2TV.&nbsp; All I had to do was install it and the&nbsp; old video = (card) was=20 disabled automatically.&nbsp; There is no need to disable it = yourself.&nbsp; I=20 have had no problems with the card or system.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>By the way, I like my PB = and would=20 recommend it to anybody.&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> <P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Just <STRONG>MY=20 </STRONG>thoughts.</FONT> <P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>--=20 getting all=20 e***d about the possibilities before me,<BR>&gt; and been trying to = decide on=20 various upgrades for my PBell P75. Today, I<BR>&gt; stopped by three = computer=20 shops to inquire about this and that... and<BR>&gt; I've learned there's = two=20 very important phrases that those of us that<BR>&gt; want more from our=20 computers had better learn, and learn well:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 1. = Proprietory=20 System<BR>&gt; 2. Open Archetecture<BR><BR>this is a lesson to = all.&nbsp; you=20 learn the first time after you buy the<BR>absolute worst computer on the = market:=20 packard bell.&nbsp; one out of every 5<BR>out of the box does not = work.&nbsp;=20 they use the cheapest components they<BR>can.&nbsp; they charge too = much.&nbsp;=20 they attract first time buyers because<BR>usually the first time buyer = doesn't=20 look at computer mags and realize<BR>what better systems they can get = through=20 mail order.&nbsp; do yourself a<BR>favor and dump that system and = upgrade to a=20 new system through mail<BR>order (micron, dell, gateway are good) or = build your=20 own system.<BR><BR>just my thoughts,<BR><BR>john</FONT></BODY></HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BCC9F2.62C9EB40--

writes Agreed 100%, I got burned the same way with my first computer. Never again. As for their helpline and onsite warranty they are both an absolute joke. -- Sean Black

I've configured with a number of computers over the years including AST'sand Compaq with integrated sound or video and the AST's did allow you to just drop in a new video card. The integrated sound in the compaq was switchable in the bios (if I remember right). If all else failed surely you could use the device manger in Win95 to disable the device in the original configuration? Brian

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>This is hardly a unique to-PB phenomenon. My Hewlett Packard pavilion >also has integrated S3 video that I can't disable, apparently; it's >putting me off of buying a rendition card, since I'm not positive I >can use it. Similarly, the HP has an integrated sound/joystick card. >I wouldn't *expect* to be able to drop a new 3rd-party motherboard in >and have it fit. If I wanted to expand, I'd think about buying a new >minitower with a new motherboard, and reuse the peripherals. >But frankly, by the time you do all of that, you might as well buy >whatever you can on this years refurb/old-model market for $800. Last >time I looked, this bought you a 200Mhz pentium with a 2G drive, 28.8 >modem, and at least 16M of memory, put together with a warranty. >And if you do this, you have your old machine to give to your nephew >when you want to blow him away with a net game to show him how it is >done. >-dB >-- >"It's hard to find a black cat in a dark room. | David Brower