GTR feel

Well I have fiddled with dxtweak as my windows calibration seemed a bit off according to the GTR controller screens (my throttle would go from nothing to half way in an instance). Played around a bit with GTR controller settings. Updated the settings a little cos it understeered so hideously and reduced the g-force effect as per the posts here. However, it still feels like it only has two wheels in the middle of the car. I seem to have no feel under braking and no clue when I have locked up (surely the engine note should tell me when the rears are locked). I still have this lack of throttle response. I lift and the engine seems to carry on spinning the wheels - which I have noticed since F1-2000. It simply doesn't feel right. Yes I am a GPLer but I have switched between all the major players from Papy, Crammond, Ubisoft throughout the years. N1, 2 & 3 always felt a bit dodgy for a road track racer and I get a similar lack of feel from the EA series and now GTR. Judging by the accolades from real drivers I feel I am missing something. Perhaps it is because I do not use FF and EA/GTR rely upon FF to provide the feel rather than through graphics and sound engines? The Papy titles date back to pre FF, whereas the EA ones and especially GTR FF is becoming the norm. Any advice would be welcome. I use a TM Formula/Nascar Pro (old I know but I prefer it to the Momo!) Thanks Tony

On Tue, 11 May 2004 09:22:17 GMT, "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Judging by the accolades from real drivers I feel I am missing something. >Perhaps it is because I do not use FF and EA/GTR rely upon FF to provide the >feel rather than through graphics and sound engines? Hm. I don't use force feedback and I find it as exhilerating/rewarding to drive as n2003. Granted it's hard to get an overly thorough impression from 2 cars and 1 track, but it feels pretty damn good to me. Jason

On Tue, 11 May 2004 09:22:17 GMT, "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Well I have fiddled with dxtweak as my windows calibration seemed a bit off >according to the GTR controller screens (my throttle would go from nothing >to half way in an instance). Played around a bit with GTR controller >settings. Updated the settings a little cos it understeered so hideously and >reduced the g-force effect as per the posts here. > >However, it still feels like it only has two wheels in the middle of the >car. I seem to have no feel under braking and no clue when I have locked up >(surely the engine note should tell me when the rears are locked). > >I still have this lack of throttle response. I lift and the engine seems to >carry on spinning the wheels - which I have noticed since F1-2000. > >It simply doesn't feel right. Yes I am a GPLer but I have switched between >all the major players from Papy, Crammond, Ubisoft throughout the years. N1, >2 & 3 always felt a bit dodgy for a road track racer and I get a similar >lack of feel from the EA series and now GTR. > >Judging by the accolades from real drivers I feel I am missing something. >Perhaps it is because I do not use FF and EA/GTR rely upon FF to provide the >feel rather than through graphics and sound engines? > >The Papy titles date back to pre FF, whereas the EA ones and especially GTR >FF is becoming the norm. > >Any advice would be welcome. I use a TM Formula/Nascar Pro (old I know but I >prefer it to the Momo!)

I personally have the feeling that at least on some machine's GTR has problems with controller lag. When I turn my physical wheel quickly from one side to the other, the virtual wheel on the screen has problems to keep up with the movement. It's at least 0.5 seconds slower. As a result the car feels disconnected, it doesn't respond quick enough. I might aswell play NASCAR! (The horror.... :-P) Maybe you've the same problem? Cheers! Remco

Remco, Controller lag has always been a prob w. ISI sims. For that matter, with most sims but Papy's. (EA's NfS series, for example; or almost all rally/street racing sims.) It's most annoying w. F1 sims, because the RW cars are preternaturally responsive (some might say hypersensitive). "Remco Moedt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Tue, 11 May 2004 09:22:17 GMT, "Tony Rickard" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >Well I have fiddled with dxtweak as my windows calibration seemed a bitoff > >according to the GTR controller screens (my throttle would go fromnothing > >to half way in an instance). Played around a bit with GTR controller > >settings. Updated the settings a little cos it understeered so hideouslyand > >reduced the g-force effect as per the posts here. > > > >However, it still feels like it only has two wheels in the middle of the > >car. I seem to have no feel under braking and no clue when I have lockedup > >(surely the engine note should tell me when the rears are locked). > > > >I still have this lack of throttle response. I lift and the engine seemsto > >carry on spinning the wheels - which I have noticed since F1-2000. > > > >It simply doesn't feel right. Yes I am a GPLer but I have switchedbetween > >all the major players from Papy, Crammond, Ubisoft throughout the years.N1, > >2 & 3 always felt a bit dodgy for a road track racer and I get a similar > >lack of feel from the EA series and now GTR. > > > >Judging by the accolades from real drivers I feel I am missing something. > >Perhaps it is because I do not use FF and EA/GTR rely upon FF to providethe > >feel rather than through graphics and sound engines? > > > >The Papy titles date back to pre FF, whereas the EA ones and especiallyGTR > >FF is becoming the norm. > > > >Any advice would be welcome. I use a TM Formula/Nascar Pro (old I knowbut I

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> >prefer it to the Momo!) > > I personally have the feeling that at least on some machine's GTR has > problems with controller lag. When I turn my physical wheel quickly > from one side to the other, the virtual wheel on the screen has > problems to keep up with the movement. It's at least 0.5 seconds > slower. > > As a result the car feels disconnected, it doesn't respond quick > enough. I might aswell play NASCAR! (The horror.... :-P) > > Maybe you've the same problem? > > > Cheers! > > Remco > > >

"Remco Moedt" wrote: > I personally have the feeling that at least on some machine's GTR has > problems with controller lag. When I turn my physical wheel quickly > from one side to the other, the virtual wheel on the screen has > problems to keep up with the movement. It's at least 0.5 seconds > slower. I'll try that test. Sounds about right though. > As a result the car feels disconnected, it doesn't respond quick > enough. I might aswell play NASCAR! (The horror.... :-P) Yes and yes! > Maybe you've the same problem? It seems that way. It is not that I don't want to like GTR. It should represent the future for sims. Yet personally I just can't take to the feel of any sim based on the EA core engine and no matter how good the graphics sound and complexity of physics being modelled unless I can find a fix for the controller feel on my PC I will mourn the demise of Papy even more :( Cheers Tony

Have a look at your 3d settings for your graphics card and make sure that it doesn't render a lot of frames ahead. I guess you could try turning on vertical sync? I kind of believe that it should do something like 0 frames rendered ahead. Just a longshot, but easy to try out anyway. :) "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Lv2oc.126$[email hidden]...

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> > "Remco Moedt" wrote: > > > I personally have the feeling that at least on some machine's GTR has > > problems with controller lag. When I turn my physical wheel quickly > > from one side to the other, the virtual wheel on the screen has > > problems to keep up with the movement. It's at least 0.5 seconds > > slower. > > I'll try that test. Sounds about right though. > > > As a result the car feels disconnected, it doesn't respond quick > > enough. I might aswell play NASCAR! (The horror.... :-P) > > Yes and yes! > > > Maybe you've the same problem? > > It seems that way. It is not that I don't want to like GTR. It should > represent the future for sims. Yet personally I just can't take to the

feel

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> of any sim based on the EA core engine and no matter how good the graphics > sound and complexity of physics being modelled unless I can find a fix for > the controller feel on my PC I will mourn the demise of Papy even more :( > > Cheers > Tony > >

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Lv2oc.126$[email hidden]:

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> > "Remco Moedt" wrote: > >> I personally have the feeling that at least on some machine's GTR has >> problems with controller lag. When I turn my physical wheel quickly >> from one side to the other, the virtual wheel on the screen has >> problems to keep up with the movement. It's at least 0.5 seconds >> slower. > > I'll try that test. Sounds about right though. > >> As a result the car feels disconnected, it doesn't respond quick >> enough. I might aswell play NASCAR! (The horror.... :-P) > > Yes and yes! > >> Maybe you've the same problem? > > It seems that way. It is not that I don't want to like GTR. It should > represent the future for sims. Yet personally I just can't take to the > feel of any sim based on the EA core engine and no matter how good the > graphics sound and complexity of physics being modelled unless I can > find a fix for the controller feel on my PC I will mourn the demise of > Papy even more :( > > Cheers > Tony > > >

Unless you get that controller cured, you won't be enjoying any of the ISI sims. I always had a world of similar troubles with my old TM Pro Dig2. Using dxtweek2 try doubling the range of the pedals. Keep the center point in the center of the new range and test ingame. If the pedals are still not moving til halfway, try adjusting the center value up or down and retest. Keep playing with the center value until you get something close to a smooth report ingame at the calibration screen. dh

"Dave Henrie" wrote:

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> Unless you get that controller cured, you won't be enjoying any of > the ISI sims. I always had a world of similar troubles with my old TM > Pro Dig2. > Using dxtweek2 try doubling the range of the pedals. Keep the center > point in the center of the new range and test ingame. If the pedals are > still not moving til halfway, try adjusting the center value up or down > and retest. Keep playing with the center value until you get something > close to a smooth report ingame at the calibration screen.

I have already dxtweak2'd it and the controller looks ok in GTR. It did cure some of my problems with the throttle but not the perceieved lag nor poor "feel" factor. Cheers Tony

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Y65oc.265$[email hidden]: > I have already dxtweak2'd it and the controller looks ok in GTR. It > did cure some of my problems with the throttle but not the perceieved > lag nor poor "feel" factor. > > Cheers > Tony I either am not observant enough or clever enough to notice the controller lag...HOWEVER...there are several well known lads here who have complained about the same thing so I will agree that it exists at least with some hardware configurations. I don't know if anyone has figured out a cure. dh

"Dave Henrie" wrote: > I either am not observant enough or clever enough to notice the > controller lag...HOWEVER...there are several well known lads here who have > complained about the same thing so I will agree that it exists at least > with some hardware configurations. > I don't know if anyone has figured out a cure. I think it is variable by PC & controller config. There are enough people on here I would trust who find GTR control to be fine and others who seem to have my problem. This is one area along with multiplayer that only Papy seem to have mastered. Controller calibration, multiple axes and variance of PCs and controllers all seem to be work out of the box with Papy sims, without needing to adjust a seemingly infinite number of parameters.

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Mb6oc.339$[email hidden]... > "Dave Henrie" wrote: > > > I either am not observant enough or clever enough to notice the > > controller lag...HOWEVER...there are several well known lads here whohave > > complained about the same thing so I will agree that it exists at least > > with some hardware configurations. > > I don't know if anyone has figured out a cure. > > I think it is variable by PC & controller config. There are enough peopleon

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> here I would trust who find GTR control to be fine and others who seem to > have my problem. > > This is one area along with multiplayer that only Papy seem to have > mastered. Controller calibration, multiple axes and variance of PCs and > controllers all seem to be work out of the box with Papy sims, without > needing to adjust a seemingly infinite number of parameters. >

Have you tweaked the center values for the relevant axes in your PLR file? With my old LWF/CH setup, the center value needs to be at 1.0 for the pedal axes to get full travel. I'd guess either 0.0 or 1.0 is what you'd need. No lag here, fwiw. Non FF wheel through my SBAudigy's gameport w/98SE. BTW; it seems odd that no one appears to have noticed the low-speed steering lock override cutoff speed (used for increasing lock to get out of the pits) in the GTR Press Demo is set at 50 m/s. That's 180kph! That papy-like option came into being after F1C with NT, and is set at 20m/s in NT'04. Haven't had the chance to try a lower number in GTR yet, but if it's actually working then it's affecting the steering lock in a number of places around Spa. It's in the Driving Aids stanza of the PLR file.

"Steve Blankenship" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Have you tweaked the center values for the relevant axes in your PLR file? > With my old LWF/CH setup, the center value needs to be at 1.0 for thepedal > axes to get full travel. I'd guess either 0.0 or 1.0 is what you'd need. > No lag here, fwiw. Non FF wheel through my SBAudigy's gameport w/98SE. > > BTW; it seems odd that no one appears to have noticed the low-speedsteering > lock override cutoff speed (used for increasing lock to get out of thepits) > in the GTR Press Demo is set at 50 m/s. That's 180kph! That papy-like > option came into being after F1C with NT, and is set at 20m/s in NT'04. > Haven't had the chance to try a lower number in GTR yet, but if it's > actually working then it's affecting the steering lock in a number ofplaces > around Spa. It's in the Driving Aids stanza of the PLR file. I agree with Steve. Axis [00, 00] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 X Axis [00, 00] Sensitivity="0.35377" Axis [00, 00] Center="0.50000" // 0.0=min, 0.5=center, 1.0=max (use to correct centering or split-axis issues) Axis [00, 01] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 Y Axis [00, 01] Sensitivity="0.49528" Axis [00, 01] Center="1.00000" Axis [00, 02] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 Z Axis [00, 02] Sensitivity="0.50000" Axis [00, 02] Center="1.00000" I had to change my plr file in F1C to these settings to get full throttle and brake response for my Ferrari FF wheel. Int he GTR demo, they were already set to these values. Try either .5 or 1.0 and see what happens. Also, I remember I had to restart the game once before the settings took effect. For some reason, they didn't work the first time I fired up the game after making the changes. David G Fisher

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Mb6oc.339$[email hidden]... > "Dave Henrie" wrote: > > > I either am not observant enough or clever enough to notice the > > controller lag...HOWEVER...there are several well known lads here whohave > > complained about the same thing so I will agree that it exists at least > > with some hardware configurations. > > I don't know if anyone has figured out a cure. > > I think it is variable by PC & controller config. There are enough peopleon

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> here I would trust who find GTR control to be fine and others who seem to > have my problem. > > This is one area along with multiplayer that only Papy seem to have > mastered. Controller calibration, multiple axes and variance of PCs and > controllers all seem to be work out of the box with Papy sims, without > needing to adjust a seemingly infinite number of parameters.

Not for me. About a third of the time, N2003 doesn't see my wheel when I start the game. Also, the BIG problem with N2003 is that whether you struggle or excel at a particular track is often dependent on what kind of wheel/steering pot you have. This was confirmed to me here at ras by someone (name might of been Pat) who worked at Papyrus. He said he and others there would swap pots in and out of their wheels depending on what track they were racing. I know that my wheel seems much better suited to F1C/GTR than N2003. What I have to do to with my wheel in N2003 to succeed in no way resembles the wheel action I see from the real NASCAR drivers on television. They look like they are on a Sunday drive in an old Cadillac in comparison. I'm almost definitely going to use some steering assistance in N2003 from here on out. It actually feels like a car instead of a piece of s**t when I do. :-o If I were you, I'd go on Ebay and buy a ff wheel. I just bought a MS ff wheel (with the red grips) for 60$ (including shipping) just in case my Ferrari wheel goes bad someday. I really can't imagine driving these sims without ff. David G Fisher

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<dX0oc.43$[email hidden]>...

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> Well I have fiddled with dxtweak as my windows calibration seemed a bit off > according to the GTR controller screens (my throttle would go from nothing > to half way in an instance). Played around a bit with GTR controller > settings. Updated the settings a little cos it understeered so hideously and > reduced the g-force effect as per the posts here. > > However, it still feels like it only has two wheels in the middle of the > car. I seem to have no feel under braking and no clue when I have locked up > (surely the engine note should tell me when the rears are locked). > > I still have this lack of throttle response. I lift and the engine seems to > carry on spinning the wheels - which I have noticed since F1-2000. > > It simply doesn't feel right. Yes I am a GPLer but I have switched between > all the major players from Papy, Crammond, Ubisoft throughout the years. N1, > 2 & 3 always felt a bit dodgy for a road track racer and I get a similar > lack of feel from the EA series and now GTR. > > Judging by the accolades from real drivers I feel I am missing something. > Perhaps it is because I do not use FF and EA/GTR rely upon FF to provide the > feel rather than through graphics and sound engines? > > The Papy titles date back to pre FF, whereas the EA ones and especially GTR > FF is becoming the norm. > > Any advice would be welcome. I use a TM Formula/Nascar Pro (old I know but I > prefer it to the Momo!) > > Thanks > Tony

IIRC there was a tweak that helped some folks w/F1C/2K - Set "Moving Steering Wheel=0" in the .PLR file. I don't know what it changes, but the steering wheel on the screen still moved, but the control response was better. What framerate are you running? I also understand that the ISI engine links the controller input/physics calcs to framerate, so if you aren't keeping a reasonable FPS then overall responsiveness suffers. I'm not seeing a lag w/my ActLabs FF, but then again I am dreadfully slow ;). I have caught the tail stepping out a number of times, and corrected with a very quick countersteer, so I don't think I'm actually getting lag. Maybe this is the reason so many people think you can't do power-oversteer w/o spinning? Kendt

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>BTW; it seems odd that no one appears to have noticed the low-speed steering >lock override cutoff speed (used for increasing lock to get out of the pits) >in the GTR Press Demo is set at 50 m/s. That's 180kph! That papy-like >option came into being after F1C with NT, and is set at 20m/s in NT'04. >Haven't had the chance to try a lower number in GTR yet, but if it's >actually working then it's affecting the steering lock in a number of places >around Spa. It's in the Driving Aids stanza of the PLR file. >

Even if I had noticed it, it wouldn't have mattered. I have the 'speed sensitive steering' set to zero in the options. I'm guessing that's the relevant setting. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

>Not for me. About a third of the time, N2003 doesn't see my wheel when I >start the game. The only times I've seen that happen is if I'm moving the wheel when I start up the game. Don't know why that would screw it up, though. Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

"EldredP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > >BTW; it seems odd that no one appears to have noticed the low-speedsteering > >lock override cutoff speed (used for increasing lock to get out of thepits) > >in the GTR Press Demo is set at 50 m/s. That's 180kph! That papy-like > >option came into being after F1C with NT, and is set at 20m/s in NT'04. > >Haven't had the chance to try a lower number in GTR yet, but if it's > >actually working then it's affecting the steering lock in a number ofplaces > >around Spa. It's in the Driving Aids stanza of the PLR file. > > > > Even if I had noticed it, it wouldn't have mattered. I have the 'speed > sensitive steering' set to zero in the options. I'm guessing that's the > relevant setting. Actually, that's different. That basically reduces the effect of your inputs at the wheel as you go faster, and is at its greatest effect at top speed, whatever amount you set it at above zero (which I also have it set to). The steer ratio speed thingy increases the amount of steering lock for low-speed maneuvering in the pits, ala Papy's steer ratio hack in their core.ini files. Papy's ended at about 60mph if memory servers, and they just gave you an on/off switch for it, where ISI allows you to set the speed at which it's phased out/cut off. At 0.0, it's always off, where by default in the GTR demo it doesn't cut off until 111mph, which seems a bit high to me. NT shuts it off at about 45mph. MGI had a very similar setup in Nascar Heat as well. Very tweakable, but also lots of variables in the mix when people are talking about physics and response from the sim. Different controllers and controller setups can make it hard to compare apples to apples. Think I'll shut if off and see how getting out of the pits feels, and La Source as well. SB

>Actually, that's different. That basically reduces the effect of your >inputs at the wheel as you go faster, and is at its greatest effect at top >speed, whatever amount you set it at above zero (which I also have it set >to). The steer ratio speed thingy increases the amount of steering lock for >low-speed maneuvering in the pits, ala Papy's steer ratio hack in their >core.ini files. Oh, I thought it was the same thing. Nevermind... Eldred -- http://www.umich.edu/~epickett Screamers League IICC League GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80 Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71 Hist. +82.34 MoH:na N2k3 rank:in progress Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro US East

"David G Fisher" wrote: > If I were you, I'd go on Ebay and buy a ff wheel. I just bought a MS ff > wheel (with the red grips) for 60$ (including shipping) just in case my > Ferrari wheel goes bad someday. I really can't imagine driving these sims > without ff. I do have an FF wheel - I used a Guillemot Ferrari wheel for about a year, then a Momo for 6 months or so. I probably did my least amount of sim racing during this period. I decided I had lost some of the desire. My old TM Formula Pro was knackered but I tried it again and loved the feel of sim racing all over again so I bought two brand new ones on eBay for next to nothing. I am enjoying sim racing more than ever now. I think it is simply the way I learnt sim racing and relate it to real driving. I started back with Indy 500 and then F1GP. ICR was the first sim that I felt had a really good feel. The graphics and sound provided the only cues to what was going on. With Indy 500 I originally had no sound so relied on graphics alone. My wheel for many years with ICR, N1 and ICR2 was a modified flight sim yoke with a Mountney wheel bolted on to the column. It had no resistance at all. Later when I tried wheel with strong resistance it felt wrong because to opposite lock the resistance of the wheel was the same as turning when it should be much lighter. The TM Formula/Nascar pro had the right amount of resistance to equate to that required to turn a steering mechanism without the added resistance of cornering which is then wrong when on the limit. FF just doesn't relate the feel to me as much as the graphics and sound. I don't "need" FF to provide the input and anyway I find the input distracting and frankly wrong in relation to anything I have felt in a real car. However, I can quite understand how someone developing sim racing feel through FF would use that as a primary source of input. Hence I also find any kind of head moving simulation off putting as my cue for the actions of the car are based upon the outside world moving against a fixed point on screen. Again if FF was my cue I could probably adapt more readily to this. Similarly using look left or right whilst driving usually has a consistent crashing result! In conclusion I believe we relate sims to RL driving in different ways, hence what works for some doesn't for others. I do not believe there are any right or wrong ways nor best sims. At the end of the day it is the enjoyment factor that counts be it GPL, F1C, NR2003, NFS or GT3 (and anything else!) Whilst I have praised Papy for their feel I would add that Ubisoft sims also gave me a good feel. F1RS was mave fave sim before GPL came along. F1RC felt pretty good but fell down in other areas. If you have read this far thank you for your patience :) Cheers Tony

"Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:5jvoc.1969$[email hidden]... > "David G Fisher" wrote: > Hence I also find any kind of head moving simulation off putting as my cue > for the actions of the car are based upon the outside world moving againsta > fixed point on screen. I don't like front /back G-force head movement, and especially the cockpit wobble in N2003. As long as I have my seatbelt on, my head moves in conjunction with my real car's cockpit. It doesn't float in space in a set position while the cockpit dances around me. I do though use the 'look into the turn' feature in F1C. I didn't think I would use it for long when I first tried it, but I've ended up setting it to 100%. I'm not sure what the problem is with your setup that's causing you to have trouble enjoying GTR/F1C. I suggested a different wheel, but if you've tried it with various wheels, then maybe it is something you just need to get used to. I've enver had the kind of experience with any sim that you've described though. David G Fisher

"David G Fisher" wrote: > I'm not sure what the problem is with your setup that's causing you tohave > trouble enjoying GTR/F1C. I suggested a different wheel, but if you'vetried > it with various wheels, then maybe it is something you just need to getused > to. I've enver had the kind of experience with any sim that you'vedescribed > though. It is curious though maybe it is just an old dog and new tricks thing...