More on Microsofts Forza Motorsport

More info... http://www.xbox.com/en-US/forza/themakers2.htm about physics model: ----------------------------------------------------------- Greenawalt: Forza Motorsport is a pure simulation engine wrapped in an accessible motorsport-based game world. With realistic assists, fantastic tactile control, and player feedback, gamers will be able to pick up and play. However, because of the depth of the physics, the player can continue to learn about the car and travel the path of mastery as a racing car driver. Every car is a new experience. Weight and friction transition realistically, allowing great racers to express themselves through their driving. Meanwhile, we've employed realistic traction and anti-spin assists that will allow inexperienced drivers to compete and be successful. Our tire and suspension model is extremely realistic. We partnered with Toyo tires to get real-world data on production and race tires to model in the game. Our tire model exhibits pressure, wear, heat, and load sensitivity. Tire friction is also affected by the rubber groove and marbles on the road. We worked with an engineer from Ferrari's F1 program to completely simulate real-world suspensions. When configured to simulate a double "A" arm suspension, the track decreases as the suspension compresses and negative camber is introduced. In turn, the camber and weight affect the tire heat and thus pressure. Most consoles simply do not have the power to compute what we're computing for the physics and still render a game. ----------------------------------------------------------- influences: ----------------------------------------------------------- Xbox.com: Were there any racing games that inspired your team? If so, what were they? Greenawalt: Obviously, the GT series has been a huge influence on this team. Personally speaking, the original Gran Turismo was the only reason I bought my first console. Without that game, several of us probably wouldn't have become involved in this industry. Polyphony has created a great series. I'm sure many will see the influence of SEGA's classic Ferrari 355 coin-op game in our E3 presentation. We have a 355 machine with a triple-screen set up in the lobby of our office. The art lead and I still love to play the old Sportcar GT game for the PC. It was a great blend of simulation and accessible fun. It also had really cool cars and real-world tracks. A few team members participate in PC online racing sim leagues for Papyrus' Grand Prix Legends and NASCAR Racing 2003. These games have a small, but fanatical following. Some of these communities have created third-party telemetry and replay analyzer programs as well as huge content mod packs. Recently, one of my buddies showed me an online league based on a version of F1 2004 that was mod-ed to have FIA GT and ALMS cars and tracks. That looked pretty fun . but extremely challenging. These hard-core communities are a better source of inspiration than any game could be. ----------------------------------------------------------- about AI: ----------------------------------------------------------- Xbox.com: Realistic artificial intelligence seems difficult to achieve in games. How is the development team ensuring the quality of the single-player experience? Greenawalt: Everyone talks about A.I. in racing games. Rather than spitting out features, let me simply frame our approach and let you draw your own conclusions. You know when I was saying that we've assembled a team of all-stars? I wasn't kidding. We actually have several high-level developers working on our A.I. alone. Our main A.I. developer is new to games, but incredibly experienced in A.I. He's a PhD A.I. developer from Microsoft's research division. In the past, he's worked on robots and learning A.I. systems. He's teaming with our research division in Cambridge, England, to approach A.I. from a completely different angle. It's really cool to see a group approaching this problem from a completely new angle. Rather than giving the A.I. different car physics, a predestined spline, and random seed to mix it up, these guys are creating thinking A.I. that drive Forza Motorsport's remarkably complex physics engine. Even our A.I. difficulty levels are based on learning artificial intelligence. Lower-difficulty A.I. makes human-like mistakes, such as late braking and late apex-ing. It's sort of hypnotic to watch the A.I. learn. I'll tune a new car and give it over to the developer to train the A.I. driver. The A.I. driver then takes over the car and starts putting together laps. The laps get better and better as the A.I. tests out the new car's limits. After a couple of laps, the A.I. is putting together really fast times in the exact same car physics the player drives. What's even more amazing is that the A.I. doesn't have to relearn on other tracks. It just applies what it knows about the car's abilities and starts churning out hot-laps on the new track. If you don't work in this industry, you might not understand how unprecedented this is. Every other racing game I've seen has used slightly different physics and predestined splines for the A.I. The artificial intelligence in Forza Motorsport is truly intelligent. ----------------------------------------------------------- damage: ----------------------------------------------------------- Xbox.com: How will physics and damage modeling affect gameplay? Greenawalt: The on-track experience is a simulation. However, we have customizable levels of difficulty, in the form of damage, assists, and opponent skill, that allow you to alter your experience. Forza Motorsport features performance-affecting damage. However, realistic damage can be extremely punishing. Therefore, we've integrated damage into the difficulty system. You can play with fully simulated damage, limited damage, or simply cosmetic damage. Challenging yourself will increase the rewards for winning. With the difficulty settings at default, I expect most players to be able to pick up and play the game successfully. Meanwhile, they are encouraged and armed to grow their racing skills. ----------------------------------------------------------- customization: ----------------------------------------------------------- Xbox.com: To what extent will players be able to customize their vehicles? Greenawalt: The upgrades fall into three buckets: appearance upgrades, performance upgrades, and performance tuning. The cars, from more than 60 manufacturers, include some hot sport compact cars like the Dodge SRT4 and Nissan 350Z. We've licensed real-world body kits for the hot tuner cars. These are the appearance upgrades. Based on the number of kits we've created, we have several billion possible visual car permutations. Of course, we are a simulator, so each of these kits has weight and aero components to them as well. We also have an extremely powerful paint job editor. This editor allows you to place decals and vinyl primitives all over the car. You're not limited to specific shapes and locations, so you can go ahead and freestyle. As for tuning and performance upgrades, let's just say, you've never been able to do the level of tuning available in Forza Motorsport-ignition timing, boost pressure, fuel ratio, not to mention the standard tire pressure, camber, caster, toe, gear ratios . In the upgrade category, Forza Motorsport includes everything you need to transform your stock performance car into an absolute track monster. And, of course, all of the parts are based directly on real-world upgrades you'd find on the track, from cat-bypass and cat-back exhaust to centrifugal superchargers, large surface area intercoolers, cold air intake, and triple-plate clutch.-----------------------------------------------------------

Chad Sparks wrote: > More info... > > http://www.xbox.com/en-US/forza/themakers2.htm > I think we're the only ones excited about this title. A year ago, it appeared as if sim racing was on it's way to becoming extinct. Now we have GTR and Microsoft undertaking projects that can only be described as "sim" in nature. Microsoft may or may not live up to it's promise, but at least they're acknowledging the genre. Sony/Polyphony has made some damn good attempts, but their AI is the worst in the business (perhaps). I only hope that FM approaches what's promised! And on a side note, have the West brothers finished modeling their 1967 Lotus motor home yet?

Wow. Let's just hope they can deliver everything they are talking about. "Chad Sparks" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hOxoc.34291$iy5.23266@okepread05... > More info... > > http://www.xbox.com/en-US/forza/themakers2.htm > > >

"Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Wow. Let's just hope they can deliver everything they are talking about. > >Not to change the subject (but I just did :)), but I've been running against some of your times with RS2 on XBox Live. Now you must counter. :) There are so many real winners on XBox Live that it is hard to race online. As soon as I get the headset on and hear this limited vocabulary (if you know what I mean), I'm completely bummed. Obviously the thing to do is to get a few of us-- the more the merrier-- and just go for it. RS2 is a fun game and at least for me getting used to using a controller instead of a wheel has been rough. But I'm starting to get the hang of it. I started off working through the Amateur career and am now sloughing through the Pro mode. Getting better as I go. The game is pretty exhilarating. Maybe I'll see you online in the near future. Alanb

Guys, check out these amazing shots (3 screens). WOW! http://www.e3insider.com/photos/photoPax/large/DSC_0018.jpg http://xrl.us/b2xg

Chad Sparks wrote:

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> Guys, check out these amazing shots (3 screens). WOW! > > http://www.e3insider.com/photos/photoPax/large/DSC_0018.jpg > > http://xrl.us/b2xg > >

Judging by the pics.... Will I need to buy two additional Xbox's to get that 3 screen setup? It really looks like they have an xbox cluster! My fingers are itching to play this thing.

Whoops, forgot that Live keeps a record of everything. I expect the times weren't that good, I'm still learning the game and still in the slow cars. But then it sounds like you are in the same boat. I'll check out your times when I get a chance. It's hard for me to find the time during the week to get on Live but I think I will probably be able to get on Friday and Saturday late. Most of my times are probably from single player, since I can squeeze a single player race into a few minutes but once I'm on Live I like to stay on for a while. As far as the Live players go, I have found a lot of good guys. If you run into a bad race just jump and go somewhere else. Every time you have a good race with someone say something friendly to them and then add them to your friends list. Odds are that they are looking for clean racers too and will be glad to add you to their list. After a while you will have a large list of trustworthy players and you will be able to find clean races fairly easily. The last time I was on Live there were six guys from my friends list on in various racing games, and that's out of a total of only 20 or so people on my list. In the last month or so I haven't had any problems finding at least one of them on every time I try. Another quickie tip: bookmark this site - http://www.xbox.com/en-us/live/mylive/friends.htm?level1=mylive&level2=friends&level3=friendslist You will have to set up a login to use it but once you have it you can see your friends list from your computer. That way you can check it without having to start up the Xbox, TV, hifi, etc. and you can see which friends are on and what game they are playing. Big time saver. "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rTzoc.36054$536.6633566@attbi_s03... > > > > Not to change the subject (but I just did :)), but I've been runningagainst > some of your times with RS2 on XBox Live. Now you must counter. :) > > There are so many real winners on XBox Live that it is hard to raceonline. > As soon as I get the headset on and hear this limited vocabulary (if you > know what I mean), I'm completely bummed. > > Obviously the thing to do is to get a few of us-- the more the merrier-- and > just go for it. RS2 is a fun game and at least for me getting used tousing > a controller instead of a wheel has been rough. But I'm starting to getthe

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> hang of it. > > I started off working through the Amateur career and am now sloughing > through the Pro mode. Getting better as I go. The game is pretty > exhilarating. > > Maybe I'll see you online in the near future. > > Alanb > >

> > Another quickie tip: bookmark this site - >http://www.xbox.com/en-us/live/mylive/friends.htm?level1=mylive&level2=friends&level3=friendslist

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> You will have to set up a login to use it but once you have it you can see > your friends list from your computer. That way you can check it without > having to start up the Xbox, TV, hifi, etc. and you can see which friends > are on and what game they are playing. Big time saver. > > >

Thanks for the link. I know there are clean racers (and speakers) on Live. I just haven't spent a lot of time looking for them. :) Alanb

Yes, you will. It requires 3 Xbox's. But hey, if you're harcore... ;) "Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Chad Sparks wrote: > > > Guys, check out these amazing shots (3 screens). WOW! > > > > http://www.e3insider.com/photos/photoPax/large/DSC_0018.jpg > > > > http://xrl.us/b2xg > > > > > > Judging by the pics.... Will I need to buy two additional Xbox's to get > that 3 screen setup? It really looks like they have an xbox cluster! > My fingers are itching to play this thing.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 20:16:13 -0500, "Chad Sparks" <[email hidden]> wrote: >Guys, check out these amazing shots (3 screens). WOW! > >http://www.e3insider.com/photos/photoPax/large/DSC_0018.jpg Cute large plasma's. Now if only they had this platform underneath. ;-) http://www.racer.nl/temp/orlando1.jpg http://www.racer.nl/temp/orlando2.jpg (requires either 1 PC with Parhelia or better 3 or more PC's) Ruud van Gaal Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/ Pencil art : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

<Snip, marketing rubbish> Sounds like gran tourismo to me. That also had 'super realistic physics'

"Dan Leach" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > <Snip, marketing rubbish> > Sounds like gran tourismo to me. That also had 'super realistic physics' >True, but no AI to speak of. I was (and to a certain extent, still am) a huge GT fan. I played GT1 & 2 till the cows came home, but after hearing that GT3 still had no AI... well I never bothered buying a PS2 to play it. So if this game actually has raceable AI (I don't play online so AI is very important to me in any sim I buy), then I guess I'll be buying myself an XBox. I'd really pumped about this game! I'd be more than happy if this game is a GT3 with good AI. Lately I've been thinking of finally getting a console, and until I heard about this game, it seemed that I would be buying a PS2, but I'll wait to see what FM has to offer.

Fatbob wrote: > I'd really pumped about this game! I'd be more than happy if this > game is a GT3 with good AI. Lately I've been thinking of finally > getting a console, and until I heard about this game, it seemed that > I would be buying a PS2, but I'll wait to see what FM has to offer. Even if Forza ends up being about the same as GT3 on that front, it'd probably be worth it to go for the XBox over the PS2. The XBox controller, like the Dreamcast's before it, is very well suited to racing games. With the PS2, you basically have to use the right analog stick for gas and brake to get any usable analog control, and by doing so, you lose all ability to hit both at the same time. I also find that people tend to have the stick slightly to the right or left instead of straight up and down, so you often don't get full braking or throttle even if you think you do. The triggers on the XBox controller have a pretty long throw, are easy to regulate, and are the console equivalent to split-axis on a pedal set. 'Course, you could always snag an old Dreamcast and a copy of F355 challenge ;)

Or just buy the 900-degree Logitech wheel designed specifically to work with GT4. "Swervo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Fatbob wrote: > > > I'd really pumped about this game! I'd be more than happy if this > > game is a GT3 with good AI. Lately I've been thinking of finally > > getting a console, and until I heard about this game, it seemed that > > I would be buying a PS2, but I'll wait to see what FM has to offer. > > Even if Forza ends up being about the same as GT3 on that front, it'd > probably be worth it to go for the XBox over the PS2. The XBox > controller, like the Dreamcast's before it, is very well suited to > racing games. With the PS2, you basically have to use the right analog > stick for gas and brake to get any usable analog control, and by doing > so, you lose all ability to hit both at the same time. I also find > that people tend to have the stick slightly to the right or left instead > of straight up and down, so you often don't get full braking or throttle > even if you think you do. The triggers on the XBox controller have a > pretty long throw, are easy to regulate, and are the console equivalent > to split-axis on a pedal set. > > 'Course, you could always snag an old Dreamcast and a copy of F355 > challenge ;) > > >

"Steve Smith" wrote: > Or just buy the 900-degree Logitech wheel designed specifically to workwith > GT4. Heck, my road car doesn't go round 900 degrees - what are we simulating here the West's transporter?

900 degrees is 2.5 turns lock-to-lock. That's not unusual for a road car. In fact, just flipping at random through the latest Road & Track, I see the VW R32 is 2.5, the Carrera GT is 2.6, and in their sedan comparo all the cars are between 2.8 and 3.4. So 900 degrees really should still feel quite sporty in comparison to any real car. "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:C69pc.3908$[email hidden]... > > Heck, my road car doesn't go round 900 degrees - what are we simulatinghere > the West's transporter? > >

My friend Michael Hausknecht, who used to be a regular around here and in the VROC leagues, has raced both RW bikes and RW single-seaters, and he said the biggest difference he noticed between the real and simulated worlds was, "Tiny hand movements." When asked what he meant, he said sim racers were used to generating huge amounts of yaw by flicking the wheel just a few degrees (or, in the case of the Early Aliens, even tinier joystick movements), whereas you're always crossing arms in Barber Dodge and even shuffling the wheel thru yer hands in street cars on road courses. Personally, I believe small wheel movements feel both natural and appropriate for sims and that the 900-degree wheel won't gain much traction. (The prob is that there are few decent wheels for console racing, altho the PS--and maybe the PS3--will accept most functions of USB wheels. Maybe MS will resurrect an Xbox version of their Sidewinder wheel, which was pretty decent except for the dinky pedals. If they're all THAT interested in cross-platform interoperability, maybe THEY would be willing to attach USB devices to the Xbox 2.) "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > 900 degrees is 2.5 turns lock-to-lock. That's not unusual for a road car. > In fact, just flipping at random through the latest Road & Track, I seethe > VW R32 is 2.5, the Carrera GT is 2.6, and in their sedan comparo all the > cars are between 2.8 and 3.4. So 900 degrees really should still feelquite

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> sporty in comparison to any real car. > > > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:C69pc.3908$[email hidden]... > > > > Heck, my road car doesn't go round 900 degrees - what are we simulating > here > > the West's transporter? > > > > > >

Even more... "Things change dramatically, however, when you factor in the intensive Xbox Live support Microsoft has planned here. Let's say, for example, that you start a single-player career. In Forza you start out by choosing a region (the U.S., Europe, or Japan) to set up home base in. Your selection affects the cars you'll have access to, since not every model is readily available in every part of the world. What if you want a ride that you can't get, then? One answer: go on Live, look for someone with that car available for sale or trade, and work out a deal. Easy." http://www.1up.com/article2/0,2053,1590319,00.asp

"Haqsau" wrote:

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> > Heck, my road car doesn't go round 900 degrees - what are we simulating > > here the West's transporter? > 900 degrees is 2.5 turns lock-to-lock. That's not unusual for a road car. > In fact, just flipping at random through the latest Road & Track, I see > the VW R32 is 2.5, the Carrera GT is 2.6, and in their sedan comparo all > the cars are between 2.8 and 3.4. So 900 degrees really should still feel > quite sporty in comparison to any real car.

I guess i am just used to my Alfa 156 which has 2.1 turns lock to lock whilst the more sporting variant GTA is only 1.75. I was demonstrating to my daughter who is learning to drive in cars with over 3 turns whatever and steering "correctly" by pushing and pulling how in the Alfa except for parking I can pretty much keep my hands in the same place on the wheel through the turns, even mini roundabouts. The only times I can recall drivers piling lock on in race track conditions is when they have gone off on the grass and got really sideways. Similiarly in rally sims. It sounds a clever device though and presumably will be adjustable to use a value in between a standard wheel and its full 900 degrees? Cheers Tony

Fair enough, and of course if I'm not mistaken single seaters are typically only one turn lock to lock. The 900 degree wheel is a perfectly good simulation of a typical street legal car, but not necessarily a good simulation of a purpose built sports or race car. That's why I'm not really that interested in the wheel myself, most of my PC sims are racing sims, not production car sims. But I think that for the purpose for which it was made - for GT4, which models a lot of low performance production cars in addition to the more sporty ones - it is a great idea. "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:n_lpc.78$[email hidden]... > > I guess i am just used to my Alfa 156 which has 2.1 turns lock to lock > whilst the more sporting variant GTA is only 1.75. > > I was demonstrating to my daughter who is learning to drive in cars with > over 3 turns whatever and steering "correctly" by pushing and pulling howin > the Alfa except for parking I can pretty much keep my hands in the same > place on the wheel through the turns, even mini roundabouts. > > The only times I can recall drivers piling lock on in race trackconditions > is when they have gone off on the grass and got really sideways.Similiarly > in rally sims. > > It sounds a clever device though and presumably will be adjustable to usea

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> value in between a standard wheel and its full 900 degrees? > > Cheers > Tony > > > >

"Haqsau" wrote:

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> Fair enough, and of course if I'm not mistaken single seaters are > typically only one turn lock to lock. The 900 degree wheel is a > perfectly good simulation of a typical street legal car, but not > necessarily a good simulation of a purpose built sports or race car. > That's why I'm not really that interested in the wheel myself, most > of my PC sims are racing sims, not production car sims. But I think > that for the purpose for which it was made - for GT4, which models a > lot of low performance production cars in addition to the more sporty > ones - it is a great idea.

I agree it is a good idea, just 900 degrees seems a lot, but I take your point on the cars GT4 will simulate. It would have been good for the guy I let have a go on my system some while ago, not used to the limited travel of a sim wheel who managed to force it past the stops on about three occasions. I never offered it again! Cheers Tony

I bought a Momo Racing for just such occasions :) "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FXppc.247$[email hidden]... > It would have been good for the guy I let have a go on my system somewhile

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> ago, not used to the limited travel of a sim wheel who managed to force it > past the stops on about three occasions. I never offered it again! > > Cheers > Tony > > > >

Chad Sparks wrote:

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> Even more... > > "Things change dramatically, however, when you factor in the intensive Xbox > Live support Microsoft has planned here. Let's say, for example, that you > start a single-player career. In Forza you start out by choosing a region > (the U.S., Europe, or Japan) to set up home base in. Your selection affects > the cars you'll have access to, since not every model is readily available > in every part of the world. What if you want a ride that you can't get, > then? One answer: go on Live, look for someone with that car available for > sale or trade, and work out a deal. Easy." > > > http://www.1up.com/article2/0,2053,1590319,00.asp

Now that's a feature that I do NOT care for at all. The appeal of GT is that I can drive the cars that aren't available in the US.

Name another Xbox wheel in the same league (quality-wise) as the Momo for the PC. "Haqsau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Fair enough, and of course if I'm not mistaken single seaters aretypically > only one turn lock to lock. The 900 degree wheel is a perfectly good > simulation of a typical street legal car, but not necessarily a good > simulation of a purpose built sports or race car. That's why I'm notreally > that interested in the wheel myself, most of my PC sims are racing sims,not

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> production car sims. But I think that for the purpose for which it was > made - for GT4, which models a lot of low performance production cars in > addition to the more sporty ones - it is a great idea. > > > "Tony Rickard" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:n_lpc.78$[email hidden]... > > > > I guess i am just used to my Alfa 156 which has 2.1 turns lock to lock > > whilst the more sporting variant GTA is only 1.75. > > > > I was demonstrating to my daughter who is learning to drive in cars with > > over 3 turns whatever and steering "correctly" by pushing and pulling

how

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> in > > the Alfa except for parking I can pretty much keep my hands in the same > > place on the wheel through the turns, even mini roundabouts. > > > > The only times I can recall drivers piling lock on in race track > conditions > > is when they have gone off on the grass and got really sideways. > Similiarly > > in rally sims. > > > > It sounds a clever device though and presumably will be adjustable to

use

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> a > > value in between a standard wheel and its full 900 degrees? > > > > Cheers > > Tony > > > > > > > > > >