Outrageous patent!!! Can this be true?

Over my dead body! -- Mr. H.R. Bradshaw(Deceased) Head Minister, Ministry of Silly Walks *Is your life in a rut? Then head down to your local silly walks recruiter today.* Join now and we will send you a free Sh***y.

this pearl of wisdom... Don't know if it's the same thing, but someone sent out a press release a few years ago stating they had a patent on something that sounded similar to this, and that they were looking for royalties from Sierra, LucasArts and other big players in the adventure game biz. Never heard about it again until now. -- -------------------------------- editor - computer games strategy plus | www.cdmag.com "In the arts, the critic is the only independent source of information. The rest is advertising." -Pauline Kael "...professional critics make me sick. " - Ernest Hemingway

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> Legner) let slip how they felt about Outrageous patent!!! Can this be > true?: > >Outrageous patent!!! > This is the most craziest thing I heard since Lockheed F-22 > copyright crap. What next, No one can use CDs? > I sware, we are all becoming sue happy.

Actually, if companies didn't pay Sony/Phillips their liscensing fees... that might happen. -- When replying via email, make sure you remove the "spam" first. "And Lo, I created life one... frame... at... a... time... And on the seventh frame... I REALIZED I HAD 8,633 more to go!" La Musique Petite Challenge and the DORK page (Dearmad's Official Raytracing Krud) are at: http://www.europa.com/~dearmad

I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635). This patent covers things like "playing video sequences of people or animals by selection made by the player of the video game" (not the correct words, but something like that). That means that Encarta and Cinemania, for example, are illegal in the USA. You could find A LOT of other games that could be looked at as illegal. They seem to have begun with Apogee asking them to stop doing everything they do. I guess they didn't have the guts to send a letter to Bill Gates and asking him to stop all multimedia/video/FMV production. This sounds crazy. My girlfriend is a patent attorney and she says that this sounds very strange as it is not a technical invention. If you could get a patent like this you could get one for milking a cow (not a new way of milking a cow thanks to new technique but just the idea of milking a cow). This is weird! Well, I guess you Americans will have to do without games in the future :-) /Michael

>I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635). >This patent covers things like "playing video sequences of people >or animals by selection made by the player of the video game" (not >the correct words, but something like that). Is it talking about a specific method of how to do this, or is it as general as it seems? You'd be suprised at how many frivilous patents are out there. e.g. (True scenario, but with specifics removed) the company I work for patented process A, which is followed by process B which we also patented, now we are being sued by another company, a competitor, that actually patented that process B follows process A. Sick stuff - everyone out for the easy buck rather than earning it in a fair competative market. aka, I'll sue you because I can't compete with you, it must obviously be somebody's fault except for mine.

> This patent covers things like "playing video sequences of people > or animals by selection made by the player of the video game" (not > the correct words, but something like that). Only in America, where the legal system is glad to suffer fools. -- PGP public key at a keyserver near you. 1024/1024 DSS/DH 0354ECE4 1538 RSA 8193DA4F

writes: >> This patent covers things like "playing video sequences of people >> or animals by selection made by the player of the video game" (not >> the correct words, but something like that). >Only in America, where the legal system is glad to suffer fools. What did you expect from the country that is home to the most lawyers in the world? Where you can buy books on how to exploit tax loopholes? Where politicians are regarded as being lower on the food chain then the ebola virus? Only in America. BTW, I am an American, so let's not start an "America Sucks" thread, Okay? >-- >PGP public key at a keyserver near you. >1024/1024 DSS/DH 0354ECE4 > 1538 RSA 8193DA4F -- Mr. H.R. Bradshaw(Deceased) Head Minister, Ministry of Silly Walks *Is your life in a rut? Then head down to your local silly walks recruiter today.* Join now and we will send you a free Sh***y.

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> (Michael Legner) writes: > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635). > >This patent covers things like "playing video sequences of people > >or animals by selection made by the player of the video game" (not > >the correct words, but something like that). > >That means that Encarta and Cinemania, for example, are illegal > >in the USA. You could find A LOT of other games that could be > >looked at as illegal. They seem to have begun with Apogee asking > >them to stop doing everything they do. I guess they didn't have > >the guts to send a letter to Bill Gates and asking him to stop > >all multimedia/video/FMV production. > >This sounds crazy. My girlfriend is a patent attorney and she says > >that this sounds very strange as it is not a technical invention. > >If you could get a patent like this you could get one for milking > >a cow (not a new way of milking a cow thanks to new technique but > >just the idea of milking a cow). This is weird! > >Well, I guess you Americans will have to do without games in the > >future :-) > Over my dead body!

Well, I'm sure we could arrange a patent for that too. Cat. ;)

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> >You can read the digest of the patent at the interesting > >http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ site. It seems to describe a dedicated > >sports videogame that showed prerecorded video clips in response to > >controller input. I wonder what storage medium they planned to use back > >then, videotape? Think of the blazing fun as the VCR spends 2 minutes > >rewinding and cueing up a 5-second clip! > Laser disc. That game with the cartoon guy running around in the > dungeon came out sometime in the mid-80's. What was the name of it? > The sequel was "Space Ace."

I think (?) the game is Dragon's Lair, that you are speaking of,,,and yes, there was quite a delay in the video sequences compared to today's standards, but it was Top of Line at the time. I remember it cost a dollar to play it :) -- Sit down,,Strap in,,Shut up,,Hang on,,Go fast,,Turn left,,Kiss Trophy Girl GGGGGGgoooo #3,,,31,,,28,,,94,,,6,,,5,,,18,,,8,,, Handy^man

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> this pearl of wisdom... > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635). > Don't know if it's the same thing, but someone sent out a press release a > few years ago stating they had a patent on something that sounded similar > to this, and that they were looking for royalties from Sierra, LucasArts > and other big players in the adventure game biz. > Never heard about it again until now. > -- > -------------------------------- > editor - computer games strategy plus | www.cdmag.com

Pretty laughable, isn't it? Someone obviously just got some courage up and decided to try and make a few bucks in a settlement. Most ridiculous patent claim I've ever heard. Trying to patent a "method" of motion capture could, of course, be legitimate. But trying to "patent" a style of presentation or a medium itself -- puh-lease... Sheesh, should be counter-sued for initiating "frivolous and vexatious" lawsuit. Desslock RPG Therapy Column: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg Special "Ultima Online" Phase 1 Report: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg/rpgspecial.html

Here's the meat of the primary patent claim: "A video game, comprising video recording means for visual reproduction and eventual play-back of a plurality of separable action events performed by living beings which remain as originally recorded when played back..." This would seem to apply to games like WIng Commander III & IV, where different videos are played based on what the player chooses to do. However, I don't see how it could apply to things like Quake or Duke Nukem, because it doesn't involve "events performed by living beings". This sounds a little like a typical patent vulture scheme. There are law firms, primarily centered in New York, who buy up patents like this one, usually from inventors or small companies that have run into financial troubles. Then they send out letters to every company they can dig up that might have a product remotely resembling the patent claim, threatening legal action if they don't agree to pay a license. They price the license so that it's cheaper to settle it than fight it in court. Given that a simple patent infringement case can cost well over $100,000, more if it goes to appeal, you can see how a law firm might rack up over a million dollars off a patent that they paid a few thousand dollars for. Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html-ssi Late Night Series: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

You can read the digest of the patent at the interesting http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ site. It seems to describe a dedicated sports videogame that showed prerecorded video clips in response to controller input. I wonder what storage medium they planned to use back then, videotape? Think of the blazing fun as the VCR spends 2 minutes rewinding and cueing up a 5-second clip! Charles Tyson For email replies, delete all "X"s from my address

>> This patent covers things like "playing video sequences of people >> or animals by selection made by the player of the video game" (not >> the correct words, but something like that). >Only in America, where the legal system is glad to suffer fools. We really need loser pays here (or how about loser's lawyer pays). The lawyers aren't the fools it is the judges and legislators that are fools I mean class action cases where the lawyers get millions and the clients each get a $0.50 coupon are all too common. ___________ Adam Littman / ^ \ /__\__/___\__/__\ / \( ) ( )/ \ \ /\ o /\ / \ / \( )/ \ / "Four minutes twenty-two seconds, \/____\_/____\/ Baldric, you owe me a groat" \ \ / --Blackadder \ / \ / ---------

Laser disc. That game with the cartoon guy running around in the dungeon came out sometime in the mid-80's. What was the name of it? The sequel was "Space Ace."

a bottle washed ashore containing the following desperate message from Dragon's Lair! Patrick _____________________________________________________________________ "Rest assured that my decisions always have in mind the ultimate good. I shall now ask you some test questions, as a security measure." _____________________________________________________________________ *Disclaimer*: These are my own opinions and do not necessarily reflect those of the Central Intelligence Agency.

> > this pearl of wisdom... > > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter > > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635). <snip> I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to hear a lawyer's opinion on this case. Surely there are a few in this group that could comment on how serious or ridiculous this lawsuit really is. I know that sometimes "the law" doesn't agree with common sense, and I hope that this is not one of those times. J. Smith

When was ebola added to the food chain BTW?<g>

>You can read the digest of the patent at the interesting >http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ seems to describe a dedicated >sports videogame that showed prerecorded video clips in response to >controller input. I wonder what storage medium they planned to use back >then, videotape? Think of the blazing fun as the VCR spends 2 minutes >rewinding and cueing up a 5-second clip! I've checked this out, and it seems to be a patent for a *** *system* featuring *unaltered* prerecorded clips. I believe this means that any computer games would be exempt if they do any dithering with the images, such as building a scene from a series of overlapping black-background stillshots. Personally I would think that it would also be impossible to sue a company showing taped cutscenes or even something like Wing Commander 4's real taped menuing system because it doesn't seem to fit the patent. I also wonder whether this patent would extend into the computer industry since the patent appears to be for hardware and method, and he obviously couldn't patent the computer. As for how easily it could be done, I remember a couple of video games appearing around that time called "Cobra Command" and "Dragon's Lair" which were obviously cartoonized but featured the same system (except using taped cartoons rather than taped live action). There could at times be noticeable delay for the videodisk (or whatever) read and display, but most of the time it was smooth. Why? The game follows a preprogrammed plotline; any deviation results in a "failure". The only time you need to show something you know you're not gonna have "at hand" is during a failure - and you can take a few seconds to show, for example, Dirk the Daring getting a sword stuffed through his guts (Dragon's Lair) because this doesn't require any joystick response. The rest can be taped (and played) in a series. For example, Dragon's Lair probably looked like a series of: <scenario intro> <cut 1> <cut 2> <cut 3> ... <cut N> <finale> <death 1> <death 2> ... <death M> As you can see, the scenario could be played as "keep doing a linear read until he screws up whereupon you jump to a death scene". Disclaimer: I'm not a patent lawyer, so if you're really interested, I'm sure a patent lawyer can be found who would be perfectly willing to answer your questions, for the right price. Michael Lewchuk

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> > > this pearl of wisdom... > > > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter > > > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635). > <snip> > I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to hear a lawyer's > opinion on this case. Surely there are a few in this group that could > comment on how serious or ridiculous this lawsuit really is. I know > that sometimes "the law" doesn't agree with common sense, and I hope > that this is not one of those times.

Uh, you've already heard such an opinion -- in my post which you responded to but deleted the substance! looks completely without merit, for the reasons given in my prior post. Desslock -- Desslock's Diablo Guide, Final Edition (2.3 - MS-Word), at Game Drek:http://www.pathcom.com/~kenl/ddig.htm Weekly RPG Therapy Column: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg Special "Ultima Online" Phase 1 Report: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg/rpgspecial.html

When it started eating people up.

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> > >You can read the digest of the patent at the interesting > > >http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ site. It seems to describe a dedicated > > >sports videogame that showed prerecorded video clips in response to > > >controller input. I wonder what storage medium they planned to use back > > >then, videotape? Think of the blazing fun as the VCR spends 2 minutes > > >rewinding and cueing up a 5-second clip! > > Laser disc. That game with the cartoon guy running around in the > > dungeon came out sometime in the mid-80's. What was the name of it? > > The sequel was "Space Ace." > I think (?) the game is Dragon's Lair, that you are speaking of,,,and > yes, there was > quite a delay in the video sequences compared to today's standards, but > it was Top of Line at the time. I remember it cost a dollar to play it > :)

So doesn't Drahgons Lair pre-date the patent making in it invalid? -- Do you think I am a megalomaniac ? Just give me a ZX81, and I'll control the world !

: > : > this pearl of wisdom... : > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter : > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635). : > : > Don't know if it's the same thing, but someone sent out a press release a : > few years ago stating they had a patent on something that sounded similar : > to this, and that they were looking for royalties from Sierra, LucasArts : > and other big players in the adventure game biz. : > : > Never heard about it again until now. : Pretty laughable, isn't it? : Someone obviously just got some courage up and decided to try and make a : few bucks in a settlement. : Most ridiculous patent claim I've ever heard. : Trying to patent a "method" of motion capture could, of course, be : legitimate. But trying to "patent" a style of presentation or a medium : itself -- puh-lease... : Sheesh, should be counter-sued for initiating "frivolous and vexatious" : lawsuit. Jeez. We definitely need looze pays to eliminate this settlement/sue at the drop of a hat mentality. -Terry -------

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> > > > this pearl of wisdom... > > > > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter > > > > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635). > > <snip> > > I don't know about the rest of you, but I would like to hear a lawyer's > > opinion on this case. Surely there are a few in this group that could > > comment on how serious or ridiculous this lawsuit really is. I know > > that sometimes "the law" doesn't agree with common sense, and I hope > > that this is not one of those times. > Uh, you've already heard such an opinion -- in my post which you > responded to but deleted the substance! > looks completely without merit, for the reasons given in my prior post. > Desslock > -- > Desslock's Diablo Guide, Final Edition (2.3 - MS-Word), at Game > Drek:[link lost in import: /~kenl/ddig.htm] > Weekly RPG Therapy Column: [link lost in import] > Special "Ultima Online" Phase 1 Report: > [link lost in import]

From what I've read of the patent, it seems as if the patent covered any live or lifelike material used in a video game on any media. The problem with the patent, is it seems to cover games and types of games which were already made before the patent existed. The early to mid eighties had a large number of laserdisk games, many of which resembled the rail shooters of today (like Rebel ***), and others were interactive moovies (Dragon's Lair, and Space Ace). There were likely some live action laserdisk games also. Also, on the Atari ST/Amiga platforms, there were games which used well rendered characters, like Barbarian, Dungeon Master/Chaos strikes Back, Oliterator, etc, most of which came out before the patent. I think if the patent is upheld, I'll try to patent the paper clip, or toilet paper.

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> : > > : > this pearl of wisdom... > : > >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter > : > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635). > : > > : > Don't know if it's the same thing, but someone sent out a press release a > : > few years ago stating they had a patent on something that sounded similar > : > to this, and that they were looking for royalties from Sierra, LucasArts > : > and other big players in the adventure game biz. > : > > : > Never heard about it again until now. > : Pretty laughable, isn't it? > : Someone obviously just got some courage up and decided to try and make a > : few bucks in a settlement. > : Most ridiculous patent claim I've ever heard. > : Trying to patent a "method" of motion capture could, of course, be > : legitimate. But trying to "patent" a style of presentation or a medium > : itself -- puh-lease... > : Sheesh, should be counter-sued for initiating "frivolous and vexatious" > : lawsuit. > Jeez. We definitely need looze pays to eliminate > this settlement/sue at the drop of a hat mentality. > -Terry > -------

The worst thing about this, is that it's Apogee being sued over Duke Nukem, which as far as I can tell, uses no live footage, and it not overly realistic looking (more comic book presentation). Dragon's lair could be considered more realistic for it used 24 frames per second (the duke movies I beleive used only 15 fps) and likely used 24bit color (duke only used 8bit). Also, there were seveal laserdisk games at the time which used live footage. Also, rail shooters (similar to Rebel ***) came out in around '83, on the heals of Dragon's Lair and Space Ace. There was also a beutiful futuristic racing game which used texture mapped polygons (may have been pre-rendered, but it was hard to tell) which I enjoyed (may have been called Star Rider or something like that. Video capture boards were already an established accessory for the 8 and 16 bit systems by '85 (they weren't real time, but you could always frame capture from a laserdisk player or decent VCR). I guess if there are valid parts of the patent in which the person is making money from, filing this lawsuit could endanger the entire patent. I don't know too much about patent laws, but common sence suggests that this patent will stand up in court about as well as a Quake marine gatting his head blown off with a quad-rocket.

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> From what I've read of the patent, it seems as if the patent covered any > live or lifelike material used in a video game on any media. The > problem with the patent, is it seems to cover games and types of games > which were already made before the patent existed. The early to mid > eighties had a large number of laserdisk games, many of which resembled > the rail shooters of today (like Rebel ***), and others were > interactive moovies (Dragon's Lair, and Space Ace). There were likely > some live action laserdisk games also. Also, on the Atari ST/Amiga > platforms, there were games which used well rendered characters, like > Barbarian, Dungeon Master/Chaos strikes Back, Oliterator, etc, most of > which came out before the patent. I think if the patent is upheld, I'll > try to patent the paper clip, or toilet paper.

What this proves is that these companies can't make money just off games anymore, so they have to stoop to supplementing their income by suing other companes. Remember when Apogee was the 'big company on the net' producing game after game after game? Those days seem now to be just a distant memory. ToR

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> : Pretty laughable, isn't it? > : Someone obviously just got some courage up and decided to try and make a > : few bucks in a settlement. > : Most ridiculous patent claim I've ever heard. > : Trying to patent a "method" of motion capture could, of course, be > : legitimate. But trying to "patent" a style of presentation or a medium > : itself -- puh-lease... > : Sheesh, should be counter-sued for initiating "frivolous and vexatious" > : lawsuit. > Jeez. We definitely need looze pays to eliminate > this settlement/sue at the drop of a hat mentality.

Actually in Canada, the loser does pay the "winner's" legal costs -- it's a good rule, in my opinion, as it prevents cases which don't have much prospect of success from being initiated. "contingency fees" are also prohibited (or more regulated) in Canada -- prevents, uh, dishonorable lawyers from taking on cases which will likely lose but which are potentially so lucrative that the lawyer "gives it a shot" Desslock -- Desslock's Diablo Guide, Final Edition (2.3 - MS-Word), at Game Drek:http://www.pathcom.com/~kenl/ddig.htm Weekly RPG Therapy Column: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg Special "Ultima Online" Phase 1 Report: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg/rpgspecial.html

But why did he wait all these years to make any legal claims? People have been making games that go against he supposed patent for years, and he just saying stuff now? >> > >You can read the digest of the patent at the interesting >> > >http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ site. It seems to describe a dedicated >> > >sports videogame that showed prerecorded video clips in response to >> > >controller input. I wonder what storage medium they planned to use back

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>> > >then, videotape? Think of the blazing fun as the VCR spends 2 minutes >> > >rewinding and cueing up a 5-second clip! >> > Laser disc. That game with the cartoon guy running around in the >> > dungeon came out sometime in the mid-80's. What was the name of it? >> > The sequel was "Space Ace." >> I think (?) the game is Dragon's Lair, that you are speaking of,,,and >> yes, there was >> quite a delay in the video sequences compared to today's standards, but >> it was Top of Line at the time. I remember it cost a dollar to play it >> :) >So doesn't Drahgons Lair pre-date the patent making in it invalid? >-- >Do you think I am a megalomaniac ? > Just give me a ZX81, and I'll control the world !

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> What this proves is that these companies can't make money > just off games anymore, so they have to stoop to supplementing > their income by suing other companes. > Remember when Apogee was the 'big company on the net' > producing game after game after game? Those days seem now > to be just a distant memory. > ToR

Uh, I apologize if I misunderstood your post, but it sounds as if you are blaming Apogee for the lawsuit (supplementing their income...) -- Apogee is actually the one being sued. I don't think the patent owner has been publicly identified yet, so we don't know if the owner even is a game company. Desslock -- Desslock's Diablo Guide, Final Edition (2.3 - MS-Word), at Game Drek:http://www.pathcom.com/~kenl/ddig.htm Weekly RPG Therapy Column: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg Special "Ultima Online" Phase 1 Report: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg/rpgspecial.html

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>From what I've read of the patent, it seems as if the patent covered any >live or lifelike material used in a video game on any media. The >problem with the patent, is it seems to cover games and types of games >which were already made before the patent existed. The early to mid >eighties had a large number of laserdisk games, many of which resembled >the rail shooters of today (like Rebel ***), and others were >interactive moovies (Dragon's Lair, and Space Ace). There were likely >some live action laserdisk games also. Also, on the Atari ST/Amiga >platforms, there were games which used well rendered characters, like >Barbarian, Dungeon Master/Chaos strikes Back, Oliterator, etc, most of >which came out before the patent. I think if the patent is upheld, I'll >try to patent the paper clip, or toilet paper.

And even before those games, live human actors were used to create the data for graphical images in a number of Commodore-64 games. Epyx' Summer Games was one, and there was a C64 golf game (can't remember the name offhand) that was an early user of this method. Joe McGinn ====================================================== Author of Inside LotusScript, available September 1997 [link lost in import] ======================================================

: > : > What this proves is that these companies can't make money : > just off games anymore, so they have to stoop to supplementing : > their income by suing other companes. : > : > Remember when Apogee was the 'big company on the net' : > producing game after game after game? Those days seem now : > to be just a distant memory. : > : > ToR : : Uh, I apologize if I misunderstood your post, but it sounds as if you : are blaming Apogee for the lawsuit (supplementing their income...) -- : Apogee is actually the one being sued. I don't think the patent owner : has been publicly identified yet, so we don't know if the owner even is : a game company. : : Desslock Actually, the patent owner has been identified - you can read all the info on www.stomped.com's august 12th news (which is now in the news archives) if you care! :) And you don't have to apologize for misunderstanding what is obviously a non-clued individual... Steve

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>> From what I've read of the patent, it seems as if the patent covered any >> live or lifelike material used in a video game on any media. The >> problem with the patent, is it seems to cover games and types of games >> which were already made before the patent existed. The early to mid >> eighties had a large number of laserdisk games, many of which resembled >> the rail shooters of today (like Rebel ***), and others were >> interactive moovies (Dragon's Lair, and Space Ace). There were likely >> some live action laserdisk games also. Also, on the Atari ST/Amiga >> platforms, there were games which used well rendered characters, like >> Barbarian, Dungeon Master/Chaos strikes Back, Oliterator, etc, most of >> which came out before the patent. I think if the patent is upheld, I'll >> try to patent the paper clip, or toilet paper. >What this proves is that these companies can't make money >just off games anymore, so they have to stoop to supplementing >their income by suing other companes. >Remember when Apogee was the 'big company on the net' >producing game after game after game? Those days seem now >to be just a distant memory.

Pardon? :) -- Joe Siegler Apogee Software, Ltd. [link lost in import]

stuff removed

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> > : Sheesh, should be counter-sued for initiating "frivolous and vexatious" > > : lawsuit. > > Jeez. We definitely need looze pays to eliminate > > this settlement/sue at the drop of a hat mentality. > Actually in Canada, the loser does pay the "winner's" legal costs -- > it's a good rule, in my opinion, as it prevents cases which don't have > much prospect of success from being initiated.

Of course this also tends to discourage legitimate suits against wealthier individuals/organizations. For instance: Why would a private environmental group risk a suit against a large petrochemical firm? Assuming the suit were justified, the potential risk of having to pay many millions of dollars in legal fees if they lose (and that can happen when you go head to head with a large corporation) would be sufficient to disuade most suits. So only those people who can afford representation up front are to have access to legal redress? I think most of us would agree that predatory legal practices should be discouraged, but in this case the law would also prohibit (or regulate) more magnanimous ones as well. There are very good arguments on both sides of this issue. While the extreme litigiousness of the U.S. is testimony to weaknesses in our tort system, I think Canada's 'solutions' to these problems are weighted in favor of those people and organizations with more wealth. regards, Christopher Wilson

I'm not a patent attorney, but I do have a few. As part of the process you are supposed to do a search for prior art, so IMO you are right in that this will put the patent in a very bad position due to this omission. By prior art, it is not just patented prior art, it can be anywhere or anybodys' including your own. If for instance ID disclosed in a magazine interview how it was done before the patent was granted, SOL. There is a lot of sillyness patented, for instance IIRC the game Asteroids patented rocks flying off the screen on one side & reappearing on the other. I'm not sure if the patent was granted for Scramble, but the 'ship' flying over the top of a side scrolling screen was also patented. Q: What do Fredricks of Hollywood & Howard Hughes have in common? A: They both have patents granted for wire reinforce bras Rick

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> writes: >|> Actually in Canada, the loser does pay the "winner's" legal costs -- >|> it's a good rule, in my opinion, as it prevents cases which don't have >|> much prospect of success from being initiated. >Hopefully the court limits the amount, though. Otherwise if I think I >am going to win when you sue me and I am feeling vidicative I could hire >1000 lawyers and bankrupt you when you lose.

You pays your money and you takes your chances :-) Of course if you lose the 1k lawyers will boil you in oil. ___________ Adam Littman / ^ \ /__\__/___\__/__\ / \( ) ( )/ \ \ /\ o /\ / \ / \( )/ \ / "Four minutes twenty-two seconds, \/____\_/____\/ Baldric, you owe me a groat" \ \ / --Blackadder \ / \ / ---------

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>stuff removed >> > : Sheesh, should be counter-sued for initiating "frivolous and vexatious" >> > : lawsuit. >> > Jeez. We definitely need looze pays to eliminate >> > this settlement/sue at the drop of a hat mentality. >> Actually in Canada, the loser does pay the "winner's" legal costs -- >> it's a good rule, in my opinion, as it prevents cases which don't have >> much prospect of success from being initiated. >Of course this also tends to discourage legitimate suits against wealthier >individuals/organizations. For instance: Why would a private environmental >group risk a suit against a large petrochemical firm? Assuming the suit were >justified, the potential risk of having to pay many millions of dollars in >legal fees if they lose (and that can happen when you go head to head with a >large corporation) would be sufficient to disuade most suits. >> "contingency fees" are also prohibited (or more regulated) in Canada -- >> prevents, uh, dishonorable lawyers from taking on cases which will >> likely lose but which are potentially so lucrative that the lawyer >> "gives it a shot" >So only those people who can afford representation up front are to have access >to legal redress? >I think most of us would agree that predatory legal practices should be >discouraged, but in this case the law would also prohibit (or regulate) more >magnanimous ones as well.

Contingency fees where the lawyer gets paid his normal hourly rates (or twice them) are one thing but in a lot of class action suits lawyers are getting 100 times what they could from a client who could afford them up front. Look at the tobacco vultures (I mean lawyers). They stand to collect billions for a few person years work. A common class action result is the lawyer gets millions and the clients each get a coupon.

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>There are very good arguments on both sides of this issue. While the extreme >litigiousness of the U.S. is testimony to weaknesses in our tort system, I >think Canada's 'solutions' to these problems are weighted in favor of those >people and organizations with more wealth. >regards, >Christopher Wilson

___________ Adam Littman / ^ \ /__\__/___\__/__\ / \( ) ( )/ \ \ /\ o /\ / \ / \( )/ \ / "Four minutes twenty-two seconds, \/____\_/____\/ Baldric, you owe me a groat" \ \ / --Blackadder \ / \ / ---------

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> stuff removed > > > : Sheesh, should be counter-sued for initiating "frivolous and vexatious" > > > : lawsuit. > > > Jeez. We definitely need looze pays to eliminate > > > this settlement/sue at the drop of a hat mentality. > > Actually in Canada, the loser does pay the "winner's" legal costs -- > > it's a good rule, in my opinion, as it prevents cases which don't have > > much prospect of success from being initiated. > Of course this also tends to discourage legitimate suits against wealthier > individuals/organizations. For instance: Why would a private environmental > group risk a suit against a large petrochemical firm? Assuming the suit were > justified, the potential risk of having to pay many millions of dollars in > legal fees if they lose (and that can happen when you go head to head with a > large corporation) would be sufficient to disuade most suits.

<snip> I think a better solution to the paying of legal fees, is to require the looser to pay the amount that they payed in legal fees to the winner. This means if you loose a case with a cheap lawyer, you'll only have to pay what you payed the cheap lawyer to the winner. If you are a corporation with a vast legal team, and you loose to someone with the cheap lawyer, then they get a nice pile from just the legal proceeds. This would prevent the possibility of a person being bankruped for life by suing a lege corporation..

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> >> > Jeez. We definitely need looze pays to eliminate > >> > this settlement/sue at the drop of a hat mentality. > >> Actually in Canada, the loser does pay the "winner's" legal costs -- > >> it's a good rule, in my opinion, as it prevents cases which don't have > >> much prospect of success from being initiated. > >Of course this also tends to discourage legitimate suits against wealthier > >individuals/organizations. For instance: Why would a private environmental > >group risk a suit against a large petrochemical firm? Assuming the suit were > >justified, the potential risk of having to pay many millions of dollars in > >legal fees if they lose (and that can happen when you go head to head with a > >large corporation) would be sufficient to disuade most suits.

Well, there are safeguards. You are not usually entitled to be compensated for your lawyer's "actual" fees (although they can be awarded in exceptional circumstances) - you just get fees which are "appropriate" based upon a court tariff. And if one side in a case initiates motions which lack merit (merely initiated to cause delays and up fees), the court can award costs of that motion to the other side (regardless of who wins the final case). And to take the example you've given, suits for "environmental" violations should be brought by government agencies, and not really resolved by private suits. And -even if- such a suit was initiated, and the "big corporation" (not necessarily evil, by the way!) won, the court still has the discretion to award the private environmental group "costs", and require the corporation to pay -- if the court feels the litigation was worth bringing, even though it didn't win on its merits. And if the case "wasn't worth bringing", then why shouldn't the corporation receive costs? Just because you are a large corporation doesn't mean that you should have to accept being harrassed by lawsuits lacking merit. Yes, I believe "contingency fees" are legal everywhere in Canada, provided that the lawyers are only entitled to receive "their normal fees" as a result of successful litigation. So even people who couldn't normally afford lawyers are likely to be able to initiate a case which has a lot of merit. What has in the past been prohibited, however, are lawyers getting a "percentage" of the judgment, without having regard to their actual work on the file "fees". Desslock -- Desslock's Diablo Guide, Final Edition (2.3 - MS-Word), at Game Drek:http://www.pathcom.com/~kenl/ddig.htm Weekly RPG Therapy Column: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg Special "Ultima Online" Phase 1 Report: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg/rpgspecial.html

Oy, I jumped into this thread late. Just what is this patent about? -- ********PsychoKick******** "I don't like to fling mud. You *Mad Animator in Training* get dirt on your hands and you ************************** lose a lot of ground." -Ravi Zacherias

That sounds right. A few years ago on a long drive I found a stand-up version of this game (not as much fun as the sit-down, or actually 'kneel-down', I guess, version) at a truck stop while driving in Ohio, but it didn't work. At one point in the game, Sinistar floated by... I think the backdrop/track was pregenerated but the bikes and some other things (like Sinistar) were sprites. Hey, does anyone remember "Cube Quest"? Traveled around the vertices of cubes and the like, each one was a different tunnel -- some psychedelic (screaming skulls, warp stars), some bizarre (jungles, caves, and so on). Backdrop streamed from a laserdisc and sprites overlaid on it. --r. -- why so full of sorrow, no tomorrow?

interesting info. reminds me of a groundless class action suit brought against my company that was organized by a lawyer in new york. fyi, there are 1 or 2 *** lawyers in new york that own 1 share of every public company in this country, and when the stock price takes a small dip, they go into vulture mode. it cost us over $10 million to settle. many of you out there paid for this jerk's greed in higher computer prices.

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> >I just read at www.pcme.com that some attorney has sent a letter > >to Apogee about a patent from 1987 (US Patent 4,662,635). > >This patent covers things like "playing video sequences of people > >or animals by selection made by the player of the video game" (not > >the correct words, but something like that). > >That means that Encarta and Cinemania, for example, are illegal > >in the USA. You could find A LOT of other games that could be > >looked at as illegal. They seem to have begun with Apogee asking > >them to stop doing everything they do. I guess they didn't have > >the guts to send a letter to Bill Gates and asking him to stop > >all multimedia/video/FMV production. > Here's the meat of the primary patent claim: > "A video game, comprising video recording means for visual reproduction

and > eventual play-back of a plurality of separable action events performed by > living beings which remain as originally recorded when played back..." > This would seem to apply to games like WIng Commander III & IV, where > different videos are played based on what the player chooses to do. > However, I don't see how it could apply to things like Quake or Duke Nukem, > because it doesn't involve "events performed by living beings". > This sounds a little like a typical patent vulture scheme. There are law > firms, primarily centered in New York, who buy up patents like this one, > usually from inventors or small companies that have run into financial > troubles. Then they send out letters to every company they can dig up that

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> might have a product remotely resembling the patent claim, threatening > legal action if they don't agree to pay a license. They price the license > so that it's cheaper to settle it than fight it in court. Given that a > simple patent infringement case can cost well over $100,000, more if it > goes to appeal, you can see how a law firm might rack up over a million > dollars off a patent that they paid a few thousand dollars for. > Dave Sparks > IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars/index.html-ssi > Late Night Series: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html