Jeff Krosnoff at Toronto

did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner? how did his car get off the ground? Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view of 8. That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a second death this year

He touched wheel to wheel with Stefan Johansson I think

I can't remember the corner # although it is the first corner coming off the backstretch and I had seats along there. It was a horrible thing and I will NOT ever be proud to say that I was at a race where a driver and/or a track worker lost their lives! His car got off the ground because he touched wheels with another car I can't remember for sure. I don't beleive it had anything to do with the configuration of the corner because it wouldn't have happened if the wheels hadn't touched. Although I do not beleive this to be the problem they have reconfigured that corner for this years race. I will be attending this years race once again and I myself will be praying that an incident like this will not happen again! Alex Raceman on EFNet

> did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner? No...he was on the straight on Lakeshore Boulevard, near the mid point. If anything he was approaching Turn 3. Turn 8 is a 90 degree right hander which doesn't see a lot of accidents other than a little bumping. A great deal of debate can go on as to exactly how it happened, but my take on it is that he was tapped by Stefan Johannsen (sp?) while doing about 170 mph. His car lifted and turned into the catch fence on the north side of the track. A concrete pole and a tree were involved in slowing him down very suddenly, and his head may have hit one of them. Well, the closest thing to a hairpin at Toronto is Turn 3, and I understand that the approach to the turn, or at least emergency access to the area has been changed (improved?) somewhat. I can tell you on Friday after I see the track. The biggest problem here is that they keep the racing on one side of the six-lane Lakeshore Blvd. It would be much better if they could run it down the centre of the six lanes, thus keeping things like trees and utility poles away from the track, but I think that the crown of the road makes it impossible. Hopefully we'll have a safe race this year. -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA My REAL email address is: ICQ# 1315725

> did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner? The accident happened at the approach to turn three, just at the underpass. His wheels touched Stefan Johannsen's, sending him into an airborn spin just before heavy braking would have been applied. The***pit ***ly struck one of the concrete underpass supports during the spin. -- God Bless, Steve (remove the <remove this> from my address when replying via e-mail)

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>>did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner? >>how did his car get off the ground? >>Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to >>tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due >>to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on >>untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view >>of 8. >>That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a >>second death this year > I can't remember the corner # although it is the first corner coming off >the backstretch and I had seats along there. It was a horrible thing and I >will NOT ever be proud to say that I was at a race where a driver and/or a >track worker lost their lives! His car got off the ground because he

touched >wheels with another car I can't remember for sure. I don't beleive it had >anything to do with the configuration of the corner because it wouldn't have >happened if the wheels hadn't touched. Although I do not beleive this to be >the problem they have reconfigured that corner for this years race. I will >be attending this years race once again and I myself will be praying that an >incident like this will not happen again! >Alex >Raceman on EFNet They were going 3 wide.......

Hi William, The accident happened at turn three, at the end of the long straight. Krosnoff touched the right rear wheel of Stefan Johansson's car under braking, and was launched high over the wall to the right, unfortunately clipping marshall Gary Avrin (who also perished), somersaulting along the debris fence before colliding with a tree. The car disintegrated on contact. In my view the accident was more a case of a tragic coming together between two open-wheeled cars, whenever there is wheel contact between open-wheeled cars, there is the chance one will become airborne. That's what happened here. Additionally, the incident happened soon after a full-course yellow, when a pack of cars were running together tightly bunched. Commentators and journalists routinely talk of crashes being 'horrific'. Krosnoff's was one which unfortunately did merit the word. Mark 'Damon' Gill "Only rock can save us now!" http://gillcomp.demon.co.uk/damon.htm O==-O\

I remember watching the race and remember the accident. Man, I gotta say it was one of most gruesome accidents I've seen. I believe that when Jeff got airborne, the fence was what got him into the spin. I remember the front spoiler practically taking the corner worker's head off. Then the car got severly damaged when it hit the side of the underpass. The car came out of the underpass in many small pieces, and I couldn't make out the drivers***pit. I'm just wondering if a bar around each wheel will prevent the many accidents when tires touch on these cars. Not fenders, but bars covering the front and back of each wheel. The rule would be that the bars would have to be the same height on all cars. I've seen these things work on go karts and save them from flips. just a thought, MARK

This is a classic example of why i turn to NASCAR... I certain;y don't wish to make light of the subject...the deaths were terrible and unnecessary...it is so sad the way the racing community has lost such great drivers in recent years....all in the name of speed. NASCAR racers may not reach teh dizzying speeds of F1 or Indy cars all the time....but put two Cup cars in that scenario..and all that happens is a small wreck and a few bumps and bruises.... How many people have died driver a car WITH fenders in recent years...as opposed to those without? Keep the fenders on'em and let'em run. TrenT -- Driver of the #15 Cincinnati Bengals Pontiac Track CHampionship Racing Series Admin N2STRS NSRA-S Division DamN The Man!!! SAVE THE WINSTON Sponsorship!!! CatchMeIfU.........................Can

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>> did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner? >The accident happened at the approach to turn three, just at the >underpass. >> how did his car get off the ground? >His wheels touched Stefan Johannsen's, sending him into an airborn spin >just before heavy braking would have been applied. The***pit >***ly struck one of the concrete underpass supports during the spin.

Are you sure it was an underpass support? My memory tells me it was a concrete or steel light pole. Not that it makes much difference, whatever it was should not have been outside the catch fence. Race safe all, Roy A. Beck

OK, off the top of my head for the last 15 years: Winston Cup: 1984 - Terry Schoonover 1987 - Bruce Jacobi (in coma since 1983) 1989 - Grant Adcox 1990 - J.D. McDuffie 1994 - Neil Bonnett 1994 - Rodney Orr 1997 - Rick Baldwin (in coma since 1987) Busch Grand National: some extremely obscure driver was killed at one of the short tracks (Hickory?) about 4 years ago. 1993 - Clifford Allison Goody's Dash: 1995 - Russell Phillips You might as well throw in ARCA (years approximate): 1987 - Tracy Read 1990 - Joe Young 1991 - Slick Johnson 1992 - Joe Booher 1994 - Chris Gherke Also, Jim Robinson died about a year or so after a Winston West crash in the late 1980's, and Butch Lindley also lingered in a coma for about 2 years after a (Slim Jim All Pro?) crash around 1987. Compare this to the major/minor open wheel series: CART/IndyCar: 1982 - Gordon Smiley, Jim Hickman 1992 - Jovy Marcelo 1996 - Jeff Krosnoff IRL: 1996 - Scott Brayton F1: 1982 - Gilles Villeneuve, Riccardo Paletti 1986 - Elio de Angelis 1994 - Roland Ratzenberger, Ayrton Senna F3(?): The names of Marco Campos and Paul Warwick come to mind, circa 1993-94. Also, I'm overlooking a Japanese driver whose name eludes me (an overall Daytona 24 Hrs. winner) killed in a Japanese F3000 crash around 1995. In other words, fenders and closed***pits do NOT necessarily equal more safety! Earl

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> He touched wheel to wheel with Stefan Johansson I think > >did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner? > >how did his car get off the ground? > >Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to > >tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due > >to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on > >untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view > >of 8. > >That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a > >second death this year

From what i saw there was no problem with the track the problem was a Light Pole. When the car was in the air going along the catch fencing near the end of the straight it hit a light pole, from memory the pole was either in front of fencing or fencing was wrapped around the pole. Mat.

Not sure if this is really rec.autos.simulators kinda subject but ... As I remember it was approaching the braking area at the end of the back straight. I believe Stefen Johanson moved across on Krosnoff .. their wheels touch and K was fliipped. A bit of racing bad luck I guess. Cheers, Craig ****************************************************************************** http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports Member of Christian Auto Racing Evangelism - CARE http://www.netusa1.net/~carroll/care.htm ******************************************************************************

No, it is not just you. I don't really keep up with the IRL, but I think someone got hurt and ended up in the hospital at every race. Not something that I can say about any other series..

They were three wide..the guy in the middle did not see Krosnoff, pulled down onto him..wheels touched, other side touchewd the wall, and he took off like a plane..sailed head long into catch fence, I think killing him instantly....Pretty bad wreck, and I have not watched to many indy Car races since then... Oh..is it just me..or is IRL race dangerous to the head?? Damn..what...ten..15 head injuries..hmmmmmm Justin

> Also, I'm overlooking a Japanese driver whose name eludes me (an overall > Daytona 24 Hrs. winner) killed in a Japanese F3000 crash around 1995. His name is Hitoshi Ogawa.He won Proto Type Car Race at Monza. The Japanese driver who won Daytona 24Hrs. is Toshio Suzuki. Hideki Uematsu

It was a tree. I have it on tape. This is also a reason that they laid a memorial at that tree. They'll probably talk about it at the race this weekend.

On Tue, 15 Jul 1997 18:57:44 -0400, TrenT Castanavaras >How many people have died driver a car WITH fenders in recent years...as >opposed to those without? In the last two years I can think of two. Nemacheck (sp) in a super truck and someone in a race in 1996 in a Busch race.

-snip- I think Schumacher and a few others talked about this in F1 last year, but the feeling was that at the speeds the cars go, the bars couldn't be strong enough for protecting anything more than a very light tap (which probably wouldn't launch a car anyway. Mark 'Damon' Gill "Only rock can save us now!" http://gillcomp.demon.co.uk/damon.htm O==-O\

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> >> did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner? > >The accident happened at the approach to turn three, just at the > >underpass. > >> how did his car get off the ground? > >His wheels touched Stefan Johannsen's, sending him into an airborn > spin > >just before heavy braking would have been applied. The***pit > >***ly struck one of the concrete underpass supports during the > spin. > Are you sure it was an underpass support? My memory tells me it was a > concrete or steel light pole. Not that it makes much difference, > whatever it was should not have been outside the catch fence. > Race safe all, > Roy A. Beck

The tree that Krosnoff hit was not outside the fence, there was no fence at that point on the track, although fencing has been added this year. Dan Arnold

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> >This is a classic example of why i turn to NASCAR... I certain;y > don't > >wish to make light of the subject...the deaths were terrible and > >unnecessary...it is so sad the way the racing community has lost such > >great drivers in recent years....all in the name of speed. NASCAR > racers > >may not reach teh dizzying speeds of F1 or Indy cars all the > time....but > >put two Cup cars in that scenario..and all that happens is a small > wreck > >and a few bumps and bruises....

I hate to be the one to tell you, but NASCAR began as an open wheel racing series, and it's most exciting series is open wheel, "By the grace of God, and 700 Horsepower..." is the motto of the Featherlite Modified Tour, the modifieds competed in the first Nascar sanctioned race, on the beach in Daytona, they modified the cars, by taking off the fenders, and have provided us with great racing since then. and John Nemecheck in the Craftsman Truck Series this year.also a few short track drivers died in the Northeast last year, don't remember any names, but I know one of them had a heart attack during the race, at Thompson in CT. Someone said something about bars to prevent wheel to wheel contact, they are called Nerf bars on the modifieds, Nascar already thought of that. Racing is not always safe, drivers know that, but it's a craving for speed and competition, our ***. If ya can't take the danger, dont race. Dan Arnold #13 ISTRS

: did Krosnoff die at the no. 8 corner? : how did his car get off the ground? : Does anybody else here question the saftey of turn 8 at toronto? way to : tight, with hairpin trun going in at 175+ with short braking zone (due : to high downforce setting). Whats more, you can't see what is going on : untill the last minute because trun 7 is high speed and blocks the view : of 8. : That corner needs a serious design overhall IMO. I don't want to see a : second death this year That tradegy had nothing to do with the design of the track. As a matter of fact the design of the track saved the large number of spectators who were in the area, from flying debris. The truth is the accident happened because a lot of cars were battling for a limited space; Jeff, was unfortunately squeezed out, and on these street courses there is nowhere for the cars to go. -- Dennis

Yes, I'm not a regular Indy viewer but this one I did see. The first I saw was a few cars rolling to a halt and the rear of a car lying on the tarmac. Then I saw a moncoque and went :"Oh my God...." The replay was really horrendous. The crashes of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna also are etched into my mind for eternity. But as to what can be done about cars getting airborne in Indy and F-1, the fender options MIGHT look good, but this could also lead to many a blown tyre. Especially at the start, as someone bumping into another could force the fender onto the wheel, and the ffender would then carve away on the trye, leading to a blowout later on. "Fellas, stoke me a clipper, I'll be back for Christmas." "It's sharper than a page of Oscar Wilde whitticisms rolled into a point, sprinkled with lemon juice and stuck into someone's eye." Ace Rimmer, Red Dwarf VII Herbert Ackermans.