Grrr... Why So Greedy With The ICR2 - N2 Converter??

Why make people PAY for a full version??? I hope somebody brings out a free one. Could Some anonymous person post the full thing? Please Dont email Me with it

> Why make people PAY for a full version??? I looked at the site with the ICR2-N2 converter the other day and the gentleman that made it said that he makes you pay for it for liability reasons. My question is if he is making money from the thing isn't he more liable? Nathan Woods

>>Why make people PAY for a full version??? I hope somebody brings out >>a free one. Could Some anonymous person post the full thing? >>Please Dont email Me with it >It's no different than asking someone to walk into a store and rip off >a few items to hand to you on the way out. Exactly. Frankly I'm amazed at the el-CHEAPO attitude of many in this forum. They seem to badly want this program, that someone put a lot of work into, but they don't want to pay the price. That's fine but don't whine about it for God's sake! Whe the hell said every programmer out there who builds an addon has to be an unpaid, uncompensated slave for all the losers to cheap to pay for a product they want? Joe

This just isn't true. He is not creating tracks, banners, graphics etc. He is just converting tracks supplied by Papyrus and presumably already come with appropriate copyrights, aggreements etc. There is only copyright risks if the program creates new banners etc. which might require the authorization of the company which owns any logos etc. being represented. In this case, no such thing is occuring. Why is this such a big deal ? Gerhard's convertors never received such legal scrutiny. /THansen

On Mon, 19 May 1997 16:06:42 -0500, Gary Woods Family

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>> Why make people PAY for a full version??? >I looked at the site with the ICR2-N2 converter the other day and the >gentleman that made it said that he makes you pay for it for liability >reasons. My question is if he is making money from the thing isn't he >more liable? > Nathan Woods

I posted earlier on this subject. Keep in mind I'm not an attorney and do not offer the following as legal advice (I SURE could charge for that in a few months). Papyrus/Sierra, and the individual track owners hold respective intellectual property rights to their products. It seems to me that by manipulating Sierra code, he is infringing their copyright. Further, he is definitely infringing the IP rights that the track owners have. IP protection involves the right to EXCLUDE. This means that Sierra and the respective track owners have the right not to have their tracks converted. Now, whether a company will come after you depends on a lot of things, including whether you make any money on it. A company like Sierra is much more likely to come after someone who's charging for this converter than someone who is not. The reasons should be obvious. Now, the fact that Dave created this converter also gives him IP protection in his program (this means others can't distribute or sell it), but Sierra's copyright means he can't sell his product without their permission (usually in the form of a license). If there are any ATTORNEYS out there that have a better understanding of this issue, feel free to correct me, but this is my understanding of the situation from my schooling to date.

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>On Mon, 19 May 1997 16:06:42 -0500, Gary Woods Family >>> Why make people PAY for a full version??? >>I looked at the site with the ICR2-N2 converter the other day and the >>gentleman that made it said that he makes you pay for it for liability >>reasons. My question is if he is making money from the thing isn't he >>more liable? >> Nathan Woods >I posted earlier on this subject. Keep in mind I'm not an attorney and >do not offer the following as legal advice (I SURE could charge for >that in a few months). Papyrus/Sierra, and the individual track owners >hold respective intellectual property rights to their products. It >seems to me that by manipulating Sierra code, he is infringing their >copyright. Further, he is definitely infringing the IP rights that the >track owners have. IP protection involves the right to EXCLUDE. This >means that Sierra and the respective track owners have the right not >to have their tracks converted. Now, whether a company will come after >you depends on a lot of things, including whether you make any money >on it. A company like Sierra is much more likely to come after someone >who's charging for this converter than someone who is not. The reasons >should be obvious. Now, the fact that Dave created this converter also >gives him IP protection in his program (this means others can't >distribute or sell it), but Sierra's copyright means he can't sell his >product without their permission (usually in the form of a license). >If there are any ATTORNEYS out there that have a better understanding >of this issue, feel free to correct me, but this is my understanding >of the situation from my schooling to date.

I'm no attorney, but I deal a lot in intellectual property issues, and have reviewed numerous contracts involved in IP licensing. Caveat emptor. You point out a valid issue, which is that the licenses for the various track likenesses, logos and trademarks were likely issued for a specific product, namely ICR2. By converting the tracks for use in N2, the license that Papyrus executed is probably being violated. However, neither Mr. Noonan, nor any user of his converter program are a direct party to these agreements, and unless the ICR2 user license is written very carefully, it is unlikely that converting the tracks for use with N2 is excluded. Another grey area: I assume that the converter must make a copy of the copyrighted material in the track and place it in the N2 directory. This is in itself might be a violation of the user agreement, depending on how it is worded. The fact that Mr. Noonan may or may not be making money on the converter has absolutely no bearing on the case, other than deciding how damages might be awarded. In the eyes of the law, whether you sell it or give it away, copyright infringement is still copyright infringement. With regard to Mr. Noonan's request for compensation, he is certainly within his right to do so. However, as a shareware author myself once, I can tell you he won't be retiring on the income. If he's really lucky, he might pay back some of the $500 or so he spent on the compiler he used to write the program. But I seriously doubt it. As to those of you who have complained about the registration fee, that probably irks me more than anything else. How many of you volunteer your time to do things to help the racing sim community? It's funny that the people who do volunteer the most (Michael and Marc, for example) are also the first to defend Mr. Noonan's right to charge for his program. Dave Sparks IWCCCARS Project: http://www.theuspits.com/iwcccars Late Night League: http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html Hawaii Handle: davids

[Much legal speculation cut] : > If there are any ATTORNEYS out there that have a better understanding : > of this issue, feel free to correct me, but this is my understanding : > of the situation from my schooling to date. : : This just isn't true. He is not creating tracks, banners, graphics etc. : He is just converting tracks supplied : by Papyrus and presumably already come with appropriate copyrights, : aggreements etc. There is : only copyright risks if the program creates new banners etc. which might : require the authorization of : the company which owns any logos etc. being represented. In this case, no : such thing is occuring. : : Why is this such a big deal ? Gerhard's convertors never received such : legal scrutiny. : : /THansen : Does anyone out there >>BUT<< attorneys really care? I think that the attorneys are the problem to begin with. Too damn many of them! -Dirt-

I know something he may not have thought about by charging for the converter. If he makes money has he tought about having to pay taxes for the money he makes. I don't know the laws where he lives but you can get in trouble if you make over a certain amount and don't file it. If he has figured on this then if he still wants to make money off it then good for him. All the power to him.....

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>Hi, > Your right man!! Hey I'm a webmaster and I'm thinking to buy >it from the guy then convert all the indy tracks, and make them look >more 3D then I'm going to post them on my site. I just got one >problem!! I got the win 95 verson of ICR2 and I wont work (I used the >free verson to test it out)!!! Yah this guy has worked his ass off to >make it but the reason I have a page is to provide other people with >happiness!! If there anyone out there that has ICR2 for DOS and they >wont mind if I get a copy of the tracks will you please contact me!!! >Thnax and C'ya later!! >--Jaguar/Light Speed >>Why make people PAY for a full version??? I hope somebody brings out >>a free one. Could Some anonymous person post the full thing? >>Please Dont email Me with it

If there anyone out there that has ICR2 for DOS and they Jag I'm surprised at you thats Piracy. Hey I'm a webmaster and I'm thinking to buy I can remember when Papyrus contacted you and told you that you had to take My tracks off your page as well as Alex's. Then You E-mailed me wanting to know why I hadn't told you that you were in trouble of copyright infringement. Actually I assumed that you already knew that but in any case you do now. I honestly dont think you want to post tracks to you page and have to deal with that again. When Papyrus aksed me to take my tracks off my page I complied with theyre wishes and gave them my word to never post another track on my page. I intend to stick by that and If you dont then be prepared to reap the whirlwind. Skarekrow http://www.mindspring.com/~skarekrw

I looked at the site with the ICR2-N2 converter the other day and the gentleman that made it said that he makes you pay for it for liability reasons. My question is if he is making money from the thing isn't he more liable? Nathan Woods < That sounds like major league BS to me. I would think Sierra would be much more likely to care since he is making money, but they probably don't really care anyways. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Jason Nichols-Commissioner SportSim Football League: http://www.shreve.net/~taylorj/Football/ SSFL Information Center: http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

What, are you having some kind of track pirating party or something?? And you wonder why people with track editing tools don't want to give those tools to others...