N2 patch

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> You know I have to wonder how much testing was done to N2 before it was > pushed out the door? I have to compare it to the fact that I76 (though not > a real sim) has been out for less than a month and a patch is already > availible, while we all have been waiting for a N2 patch since December. > Maybe Activision did some testing before, during, & after the release to > come up with such a quick patch. Now if they would just hurry with that 3D3 > patch!!!

It seems to me that Papyrus employees are "dropping like flies" (programmers - the Rendition dude, now Jim S) so I have to wonder if this whole NRO/patch deal will EVER come to be a reality. I'm not a cynic or skeptic by heart but it seems like a company would at LEAST keep their most faithful customers SOMEWHAT a*** of upcoming enhancements. The majority of Papyrus customers are ***s but IMO, we've been treated like punk-kids who will buy a product regardless of customer service! As someone who spent years in a supervisory/customer service environment, I have to say Papyrus fails MISERABLY in this department!!! If you intend to flame me, please be gentle - I'm really very sensitive about what people think of me! :-) John Parker "Bogart" on Hawaii Links LS Tour Member #475

You know I have to wonder how much testing was done to N2 before it was pushed out the door? I have to compare it to the fact that I76 (though not a real sim) has been out for less than a month and a patch is already availible, while we all have been waiting for a N2 patch since December. Maybe Activision did some testing before, during, & after the release to come up with such a quick patch. Now if they would just hurry with that 3D3 patch!!!

done to N2 before it was > pushed out the door? I have to compare it to the fact that I76 (though not > a real sim) has been out for less than a month and a patch is already > availible, while we all have been waiting for a N2 patch since December. > Maybe Activision did some testing before, during, & after the release to > come up with such a quick patch. Now if they would just hurry with that 3D3 > patch!!! It seems to me that Papyrus employees are "dropping like flies" (programmers - the Rendition dude, now Jim S) so I have to wonder if this whole NRO/patch deal will EVER come to be a reality. I'm not a cynic or skeptic by heart but it seems like a company would at LEAST keep their most faithful customers SOMEWHAT a*** of upcoming enhancements. The majority of Papyrus customers are ***s but IMO, we've been treated like punk-kids who will buy a product regardless of customer service! As someone who spent years in a supervisory/customer service environment, I have to say Papyrus fails MISERABLY in this department!!! If you intend to flame me, please be gentle - I'm really very sensitive about what people think of me! :-) John Parker "Bogart" on Hawaii Links LS Tour Member #475 < With the EXCEPTION of Jim S. who is extremely helpful, you have a good point, but it's not Papyrus where this attitude is coming from. The whole scenario of $ierra buying a small company who cares about the gamers and then ruining it with their cold as ice corporate arttitude has been played out before with Dynamix. Just ask anybody who has versions of their football games back to the glorious Dynamix days......... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------- Jason Nichols Commissioner SportSim Football League http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

"Dropping like flies" is pretty strong for what I have seen of Papyrus' turnover in the past couple of years. The reality is that there is such a demand for software developers now that just about anyone can switch jobs, get a pay raise and an opportunity to do something new and interesting. Losing a couple of people is pretty normal for just about any corporation. As for the delay in the patch, I do agree that this is a long time coming. However, keep in mind that Adam L. from Papyrus state early on that adding the save game option was difficult to do after the fact. Most N2 users want this feature and Papy has heard the outcry and decided to do it (at least that is the rumor). I think most of us would rather wait and get this in there and get most of the bugs fixed as apposed to getting a half baked patch that doesn't fix the serious problems. That said, I would agree that 6 months is probably the max that is reasonable to wait for any patch. I know that the commercial software industry would not accept a patch that took this long. /THansen

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> > It seems to me that Papyrus employees are "dropping like flies" > > (programmers - the Rendition dude, now Jim S) so I have to wonder if > > this whole NRO/patch deal will EVER come to be a reality. > "Dropping like flies" is pretty strong for what I have seen of Papyrus' > turnover in the past couple of years. The reality is that there is such a > demand for software developers now that just about anyone can switch jobs, > get a pay raise and an opportunity to do something new and interesting. > Losing a couple of people is pretty normal for just about any corporation. > As for the delay in the patch, I do agree that this is a long time coming. > However, keep in mind that Adam L. from Papyrus state early on that adding > the save game option was difficult to do after the fact. Most N2 users > want this feature and Papy has heard the outcry and decided to do it (at > least that is the rumor). I think most of us would rather wait and get > this in there and get most of the bugs fixed as apposed to getting a half > baked patch that doesn't fix the serious problems. That said, I would > agree that 6 months is probably the max that is reasonable to wait for any > patch. I know that the commercial software industry would not accept a > patch that took this long. > /THansen

Tom, yes "dropping like flies" may have been a BIT strong, but it IS true that those that have left / are leaving are VERY crucial to the operation - hence, no anti-aliasing for N2. Also the 6 month "deadline" is quickly approaching. Myself, I wish they would have sent out a patch fixing gameplay problems IMMEDIATLY -- what is the use of having a saved game option when you can't finish a long race due to getting rammed in the pits anyhow!!!! As always, just my opinion and they are like noses - we all have one! -- John Parker "Bogart" on Hawaii Links LS Tour Member #475 x

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> You know I have to wonder how much testing was done to N2 before it was > pushed out the door? I have to compare it to the fact that I76 (though not > a real sim) has been out for less than a month and a patch is already > availible, while we all have been waiting for a N2 patch since December. > Maybe Activision did some testing before, during, & after the release to > come up with such a quick patch. Now if they would just hurry with that 3D3 > patch!!!

Keep in mind that the testing procedures for the N2 patch must run parallel to the testing of the NRO system and work succesfully in BOTH environments. With NRO not yet officially implemented, one would suspect the production of a patch to be a tedious and time consuming process. David T.

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> done to N2 before it was > pushed out the door? I have to compare it to > the fact that I76 (though not > a real sim) has been out for less than a > month and a patch is already > availible, while we all have been waiting > for a N2 patch since December. > Maybe Activision did some testing before, > during, & after the release to > come up with such a quick patch. Now if > they would just hurry with that 3D3 > patch!!! > It seems to me that Papyrus employees are "dropping like flies" > (programmers - the Rendition dude, now Jim S) so I have to wonder if this > whole NRO/patch deal will EVER come to be a reality. I'm not a cynic or > skeptic by heart but it seems like a company would at LEAST keep their > most faithful customers SOMEWHAT a*** of upcoming enhancements. The > majority of Papyrus customers are ***s but IMO, we've been treated like > punk-kids who will buy a product regardless of customer service! As > someone who spent years in a supervisory/customer service environment, I > have to say Papyrus fails MISERABLY in this department!!! > If you intend to flame me, please be gentle - I'm really very sensitive > about what people think of me! :-) > John Parker > "Bogart" on Hawaii Links LS Tour Member #475 < > With the EXCEPTION of Jim S. who is extremely helpful, you have a good > point, but it's not Papyrus where this attitude is coming from. The > whole scenario of $ierra buying a small company who cares about the gamers > and then ruining it with their cold as ice corporate arttitude has been > played out before with Dynamix. Just ask anybody who has versions of > their football games back to the glorious Dynamix days......... > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------- > Jason Nichols > Commissioner > SportSim Football League > http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------

You are right! It seems that the customer service problem DID occur after Sierra's aquisition of Papyrus - in fact there were numerous occasions when Papyrus tech dudes helped me out tremendously when Hawaii debuted! John Parker "Bogart" on Hawaii Links LS Tour Member #475 x x

John is right and I noticed those "Defenders of Papy " are fading fast As i said before If there was a patch coming you SHOULD have heard something by now instead of NOTHING. Who for example is the person to ask about the patch from papyus does anybody know? I don't think so. Some of you can defend papyrus for doing and saying nothing but that exactly what you got, NOTHING. And I for one feel that If I in good faith buy a product that the manufacturer knows needs repair I should get SOME feedback as to now those repairs are coming along. Or I just might think this is one of those TAKE THE MONEY AND RUN companies. I hope I'm wrong. And the only thing that would change my opion IS A PATCH not more BS from those PAPY Wannabees

Think about what you just wrote!

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> It seems to me that Papyrus employees are "dropping like flies" >(programmers - the Rendition dude, now Jim S) so I have to wonder if this >whole NRO/patch deal will EVER come to be a reality. I'm not a cynic or >skeptic by heart but it seems like a company would at LEAST keep their >most faithful customers SOMEWHAT a*** of upcoming enhancements. The >majority of Papyrus customers are ***s but IMO, we've been treated like >punk-kids who will buy a product regardless of customer service! As >someone who spent years in a supervisory/customer service environment, I >have to say Papyrus fails MISERABLY in this department!!!

John - I can assure you that "The Patch" is in process, as I've been doing most of the engineering work on it. It has taken longer than I'd like, but that has mostly been because it has attempted to address more problems than we originally planned to deal with and some of the issues (such as the WIN-95/OEM joystick problem) didn't become clear until well into the new year. I'd have to personally concur with you in concern for losing quality people at Papyrus; some really talented people have left for various reasons. However, there are also a lot of talented people still here, including nearly all of the artists, and about five out of six of the engineers who worked on the _original_ NASCAR. With regard to announcements of upcoming enhancements - after some previous premature announcements related to upcoming patches which resulted in bad publicity in various online forums, Papyrus's managers have requested that employees not speculate publicly on dates for patch or product releases. Patches don't face the same sort of deadline pressures that a product release does - and that is both a good thing and a bad thing for ya'll. Its a good thing because it means bugs are much more likely to be discovered and fixed; its a bad thing because it means its ok if the patch ships next week, next month, or next quarter. So - you've got my word that a patch is coming, and we're doing our best to fix as many things possible while also trying to get it out to ya'll as soon as we can, but I can't tell you exactly when or exactly what it will fix. OK? Charlie Heath Papyrus

: You know I have to wonder how much testing was done to N2 before it was : pushed out the door? I have to compare it to the fact that I76 (though not : a real sim) has been out for less than a month and a patch is already : availible, while we all have been waiting for a N2 patch since December. : Maybe Activision did some testing before, during, & after the release to : come up with such a quick patch. Now if they would just hurry with that 3D3 : patch!!! And if I remember correctly there were empty I76 boxes in the stores around August last year saying it was to be released in October 1996. They sat on the product until they could get it close, but still released it even though they knew the patch was to soon follow. M***of the story: You can't win. Wait for the product to be "finished" and still need a patch! Get the product early and wait longer for a patch. If Papy can get their patch out within the next month the "timing" would be the same as the I76 planned release/patch schedule. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I'm still thinking!

True Michael, But I don't think I76 was hyped as much as say N2! If I remember correctly N2 was supposed to be out the summer of 96' (I could be wrong) instead it was delayed and delayed and then rushed out the door as a defective product(I can't finish a 100% race cause some AI hits me while I'm pitting, that is a serious bug!!!)so they could make their money and run!. You can't tell me the Papyrus/Sierra didn't know about this bug(and the others). I can handle the Atlanta Pit problems and the flipping cars at Martinsville but this being hit while in the pits is a serious problem that should have been patched a week after N2's release. Anyway I sound like I'm starting to rail Papyrus so I should settle down and state that yes, I76 was delayed, and yes it wasn't completely bug free when released(what software is?) but it seems that Activision has takin' the time and effort to fix whatever the problems that are occurring in I76 in a speedy fashion! N2 on the other hand is a great sim that was loaded with faults! The little faults could have been handled with a patch down the road, but to totally ignore the major bugs in the game and basically have people buy a BETA copy for 20-40 bucks is ridiculous! Do you really think Papyrus tested N2 at all? I don't think so. All the patch ideas are coming from people who have bought the BETA and posted their comments here in RAS!!! I'm winded!! Hopping of the soap box now! Take it easy!

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> And if I remember correctly there were empty I76 boxes in the stores > around August last year saying it was to be released in October 1996. > They sat on the product until they could get it close, but still > released it even though they knew the patch was to soon follow. > M***of the story: You can't win. Wait for the product to be > "finished" and still need a patch! Get the product early and wait > longer for a patch. If Papy can get their patch out within the next > month the "timing" would be the same as the I76 planned release/patch > schedule. > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Charlie, thanks for taking your time to answer. It is because of individuals, like yourself, that go "above and beyond the call of duty" that I have ANY patience for your company. I know that you and many others put much time, effort and pride into your work and I, for one, DO appreciate it! Hopefully customer relations will improve at Sierra/Papyrus because of employees like you! Thanks again! -- John Parker "Bogart" on Hawaii Links LS Tour Member #475

It took a DANG long time to get the v1.21 patch for N1 out (the 1.1 and 1.2 didnt fix THAT much, so I genrrally disregard em...). So this isnt something NEW to expect it to take a while. Nuff said. Mike Frazer Mike Frazer #11 American Airlines/STP/MBNA Ford, IGN Prime Time Motorsports

>Think about what you just wrote! Thanks.. I thought it was just me :)

Any chance that this patch might be included with a track pack quite similar to how N1 got its patch 1.2 to us. From hearing that it (the patch) won't be available until June, it seems that this could be a logical solution (yes/no??). Just a thought... Bruce

If you would settle down long enough, you might see that Charlie has posted something about it. Updating you guys only sometimes gets everyone fired up about a release....and then flaming starts when the patch is not done in the expected time...case in point. I don't think anyone was 100% happy with the initial release but I still get alot of enjoyment from N2. Sure, I would of liked to had a patch by now too but there are just other things going on that delayed the patch. hmmmm Brian Tate

You are right. That is a major bug. It should have been fixed almost immediately. I wonder, if there was a bug where we couldn't get fuel on a 100% race, would we have to wait 5 months for a patch? (Yes, it is frustrating after racing for 2 hours and getting hit going into the pit). N2 was released for Christma$. I know, I know, a patch is on the way. No one has a clue when. (1 week 1 month, 6 months???) I hate to complain about such a great game. In a way, I'm glad the patch is not out yet, I still find it hard to tear myself away from the game.