To Jim Sokoloff -Historical SIM

Hi Jim, What inspired you and your team to create a sim based on cars out of the '60s? Don't you think the "state of the art" appeals more to the "vast" market of *** fanatics(usually kids) more than something so far into the past? I'm sure from all the enjoyment ive gotten from past Papy sims that it will be a step above as far as realism, but I will be reluctant to spend too much time with outdated cars. I think that kids nowadays are lured towards technology and can relate with race cars of this decade. Any opinions? I cant believe I havent seen any posts asking this question. -David Gary-

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:20:23 -0500, David Gary >What inspired you and your team to create a sim based >on cars out of the '60s? That's a fair question. Read on. The sixties Formula One cars were UNBELIEVABLE. What those guys were willing to do to get those cars with insane horsepower to weight (and horsepower to grip) ratios amazes me. Our games (with the possible exceptions of Sony NASCAR) have never really appealed to the "kid" market. I believe that our average user is older than I am. Having driven some proof-of-concept version of Grand Prix Legends (I don't know if this the "real" title, but it's the working title), I can say that this game will astound the true racing sim fan. Around the time development began, we couldn't get the rights to modern-day F1, and judged that the new physics model being developed would be most applicable to 60's F1. The designer had already been to an open wheel school at Skip Barber, so convinced a group of us to go to Skip's racing school in open wheel formula cars, and we walked away convinced that this was the thing to do. Yes, these cars are "outdated," but the driving experience will of course be second to none (at the time of release), and I really believe that this game will set the next "level" of driving sim. (The mere fact that the cars are outdated is somewhat a good thing IMO; this game is all about driving and car setup. The tires are small and managing the grip is all-important. You have abundant brakes and horsepower, but you have to constantly be "on top of" the car, lest you experience the literal "flip side" of the new 3d physics. Steering is done as much with your feet as with your hands...Man, This is GREAT!) I really think that this is a product that the demo will sell units. (The demo is months and months and months away, as the game isn't shipping for over a year, but when the demo comes out, download it and give it maybe 5 hours to get accustomed to it. If you like the idea, but don't like the 60's F1 cars, wait a few more months for another product using that same basic game engine... Personally, I'm going to get all the practice I can once GPL ships so that when the next product ships, that I won't be "behind the curve" anymore than I usually am...) ---Jim Sokoloff

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:20:23 -0500, David Gary >What inspired you and your team to create a sim based >on cars out of the '60s? That's a fair question. Read on. > Don't you think the "state of the art" >appeals more to the "vast" market of *** fanatics(usually kids) more >than something so far into the past? The sixties Formula One cars were UNBELIEVABLE. What those guys were willing to do to get those cars with insane horsepower to weight (and horsepower to grip) ratios amazes me. Our games (with the possible exceptions of Sony NASCAR) have never really appealed to the "kid" market. I believe that our average user is older than I am. > I'm sure from all the enjoyment ive >gotten from past Papy sims that it will be a step above as far as >realism, but I will be reluctant to spend too much time with outdated >cars. I think that kids nowadays are lured towards technology and can >relate with race cars of this decade. Any opinions? I cant believe I >havent seen any posts asking this question. Having driven some proof-of-concept version of Grand Prix Legends (I don't know if this the "real" title, but it's the working title), I can say that this game will astound the true racing sim fan. Around the time development began, we couldn't get the rights to modern-day F1, and judged that the new physics model being developed would be most applicable to 60's F1. The designer had already been to an open wheel school at Skip Barber, so convinced a group of us to go to Skip's racing school in open wheel formula cars, and we walked away convinced that this was the thing to do. Yes, these cars are "outdated," but the driving experience will of course be second to none (at the time of release), and I really believe that this game will set the next "level" of driving sim. (The mere fact that the cars are outdated is somewhat a good thing IMO; this game is all about driving and car setup. The tires are small and managing the grip is all-important. You have abundant brakes and horsepower, but you have to constantly be "on top of" the car, lest you experience the literal "flip side" of the new 3d physics. Steering is done as much with your feet as with your hands...Man, This is GREAT!) I really think that this is a product that the demo will sell units. (The demo is months and months and months away, as the game isn't shipping for over a year, but when the demo comes out, download it and give it maybe 5 hours to get accustomed to it. If you like the idea, but don't like the 60's F1 cars, wait a few more months for another product using that same basic game engine... Personally, I'm going to get all the practice I can once GPL ships so that when the next product ships, that I won't be "behind the curve" anymore than I usually am...) ---Jim Sokoloff Hi, As a forty something sort of person, who loves racing sims, I am extremely e***d about this project. Keep Us Posted. Thanks, George P.S. Try to remember 3DFX support :>}

Jim,

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>I really think that this is a product that the demo will sell units. >(The demo is months and months and months away, as the game isn't >shipping for over a year, >[...] >wait a few more months for another >product using that same basic game engine... Personally, I'm going to >get all the practice I can once GPL ships so that when the next >product ships, that I won't be "behind the curve" anymore than I >usually am...)

You forgot to mention if this product will also be available for Mac. Simultaneous release? Hybrid CD? Herwig --------------------------------------------------------------------- ## Herwig Henseler Tel: 0441/9722-222 ## Universitaet Oldenburg Fax: 0441/9722-202 ## Escherweg 2 ## D-26121 Oldenburg ## ## http://www-is.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/personal/hh.html ## Life is a heuristic guided depth-first search without backtracking

Have you ever SEEN an F1 race around this era? I've seen some on TV, and the cars are great! They are FAST, fishtailing thru the corners, catching air over humps, with no wings for downforce anywhere! These are true racing machines, from a time when racing drivers really risked everything. I'm psyc'd about papy doing an historical sim like this. It's a niche that few have tried, and I look forward to a company dedicated to racing sims putting this one out. BTW- the only bad thing I can thing about an historical racing sim like this is, how do you make car sets for other years? :)

< Lot's of great stuff snipped...> Sounds great! I can't wait! But why the hell won't you give us a release date! (Just kidding ;-) ) Keith

Hi Jim, Sorry for the thread drift, but do you guys have any plans to do a motorcycle sim? Joe

snip snip Jim.. I think the legends idea is great...it would be even greater if someday...(I understand it takes a "lemon" of a long time to bring a game to market.) We would see a legends of NASCAR version... I would love to fly around dega in a Winged Dodge Daytona! Or how about a Matador??? ;) David -- ::::::::#########::::::::::David Burton aka Vetteracer :########################::http://www.rust.net/~daland ########################:::"You have to first finish, :::::::#########:::::::::::before finishing first" << MOTOR CITY FAST DRAFT RACING - Teamate: Tim Daley <<<<

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:20:23 -0500, David Gary >Hi Jim, >What inspired you and your team to create a sim based >on cars out of the '60s? Don't you think the "state of the art" >appeals more to the "vast" market of *** fanatics(usually kids) more >than something so far into the past? <...> From my point of view, a sim of an historical period of racing isn't very interesting. Most of my interest in simming is in getting a real feel for the tracks that I'll watch on TV that year actually being raced. From my point of view, I need an update every two years or so, because the tracks change and new ones are added, old ones deleted, and I don't even much care to race those old tracks anymore. F1's Hungaroring, NASCAR's N. Wilkesboro, Indy's Indianapolis- who needs 'em now! ;> I miss all three of them, but I have no interest in simming on them now. I think that one of the great advantages motor sports have over all other sports is that they can be simulated on a computer such that someone at home can actually experience a little (at least visually and in terms of braking/steering) of what the driver does. SHow me a basketball, baseball, football, hockey, golf or even bowling sim that can actually do that. They all give you something else, but racing on a computer can look awfully much like exactly what you see on television from an onboard camera-> Psygnosis' F1 takes the award for that presently, I think. It's AI sucks, however.

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> On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:20:23 -0500, David Gary > >What inspired you and your team to create a sim based > >on cars out of the '60s? > That's a fair question. Read on. > > Don't you think the "state of the art" > >appeals more to the "vast" market of *** fanatics(usually kids) more > >than something so far into the past? > The sixties Formula One cars were UNBELIEVABLE. What those guys were > willing to do to get those cars with insane horsepower to weight (and > horsepower to grip) ratios amazes me. Our games (with the possible > exceptions of Sony NASCAR) have never really appealed to the "kid" > market. I believe that our average user is older than I am. > > I'm sure from all the enjoyment ive > >gotten from past Papy sims that it will be a step above as far as > >realism, but I will be reluctant to spend too much time with outdated > >cars. I think that kids nowadays are lured towards technology and can > >relate with race cars of this decade. Any opinions? I cant believe I > >havent seen any posts asking this question. > Having driven some proof-of-concept version of Grand Prix Legends (I > don't know if this the "real" title, but it's the working title), I > can say that this game will astound the true racing sim fan. Around > the time development began, we couldn't get the rights to modern-day > F1, and judged that the new physics model being developed would be > most applicable to 60's F1. The designer had already been to an open > wheel school at Skip Barber, so convinced a group of us to go to > Skip's racing school in open wheel formula cars, and we walked away > convinced that this was the thing to do. > Yes, these cars are "outdated," but the driving experience will of > course be second to none (at the time of release), and I really > believe that this game will set the next "level" of driving sim. (The > mere fact that the cars are outdated is somewhat a good thing IMO; > this game is all about driving and car setup. The tires are small and > managing the grip is all-important. You have abundant brakes and > horsepower, but you have to constantly be "on top of" the car, lest > you experience the literal "flip side" of the new 3d physics. Steering > is done as much with your feet as with your hands...Man, This is > GREAT!) > I really think that this is a product that the demo will sell units. > (The demo is months and months and months away, as the game isn't > shipping for over a year, but when the demo comes out, download it and > give it maybe 5 hours to get accustomed to it. If you like the idea, > but don't like the 60's F1 cars, wait a few more months for another > product using that same basic game engine... Personally, I'm going to > get all the practice I can once GPL ships so that when the next > product ships, that I won't be "behind the curve" anymore than I > usually am...) > ---Jim Sokoloff

What are the system requirements going to be? I have not heard anything about this.

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> Hi Jim, > What inspired you and your team to create a sim based > on cars out of the '60s? Don't you think the "state of the art" > appeals more to the "vast" market of *** fanatics(usually kids) more > than something so far into the past? I'm sure from all the enjoyment ive > gotten from past Papy sims that it will be a step above as far as > realism, but I will be reluctant to spend too much time with outdated > cars. I think that kids nowadays are lured towards technology and can > relate with race cars of this decade. Any opinions? I cant believe I > havent seen any posts asking this question. > -David Gary-

I'm in my twenties (still a kid, I refues to grow up) and I enjoy vintage racing. It is much cheaper to see and more often they resemble cars that you could have purchased at that time. This is not the case with the legends sim, but I would love to see this. I have been hoping for a vintage racing sim for sometime, preferably sports car but formula one will work. Nothing beats the sound of a potent chevy engine going down a straight at 6000+ revs. That's just my two cents worth. I am happy to see that they are going back to the time when drivers actually drove cars than the computers.

<snip> I agree, I think this is a great idea for a sim. You only have to follow all the dewey-eyed reminiscing that goes on in r.a.s.F1 to see the potential response to a game like this. Its also a big chance for Papyrus to get much wider recognition in the sim community - there are a hell of a lot of people (me included) that haven't played ICR or Nascar but who would be interested in a sim like this. I would guess that such a project will be a real challenge (in terms of modelling the physics and the tracks). As you say, you have to really get to grips with the ways the cars are so "nervous" - so much movement to try and accurately capture. With all the downforce in modern racing cars never get airborne, but I guess they will in this sim! On the subject of modelling the tracks, has anything been finalised as to which tracks will be included? I've seen Monza and Zandvoort mentioned, but what about others? Surely not the full length Nurburgring? (Please, please, please!...) Alan Head Screamer 2 homepages: http://www.feature.demon.co.uk/games.htm -----------------------------------------

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> On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:20:23 -0500, David Gary > >What inspired you and your team to create a sim based > >on cars out of the '60s? > That's a fair question. Read on..... > ---Jim Sokoloff

Thanks for the reply Jim. I will be waiting patiently for the demo. please consider the "camera" network.(utility to place camera at certain custom places around the track) and also the "floating" camera movement.(Where it mirrors "real" camera man movements, instead of a "pivot" point on the car at all times in replay mode. It would increase the realism when watching the replay. I'm certainly not a programmer, so I dont know how hard it would be to code, but from what ive been told it shouldnt be to hard if "designed" in the early stages. Of course this is just a suggestion to make Papy sims only THAT much better as you guys are "hands down numro uno"! Maybe I just like watching myself drive around on the track too much!(g) me! me! me! me!(LOL) Thanks again! "8>} -David Gary-

NO NO NO what Next product!! Talk about leading us on , man this is gonna kill me trying to think of what would use the physics model of a 60's F1 car I could only hope for Can-Am cars but since you reffered the game might be better for the kid who likes technology it must be Rally or GTS-1 cars or WSC. Im sure modern F1 and CART cars are out of the equation unfortunatly. Im so glad you guys are making the car models so you have to "drive" them. Its like the old slot car sets before the magnets, you couldnt just slam the accel the whole way ariund the track you actually had to drive em. Jim can you at least say if the Next product will be open wheel or not?

Hi Jim I want this sim bad. Only kidding I can wait until 98 :-) After all I haven't got to the pinnacle in NCR2 or ICR2 yet. Here's hoping it will include the 180 (yes 180) turn Old Nurburgring. I would buy the sim if it only included that track. Yes it does predate me by five years, but hell what a lot of fun it will be driving a car that slides and has an excess of power. -- Glenn Beaumaris ----------------- "I Believe in God-After All Helen Hunt exists" HELEN HUNT: COOL "The day I got to hand over my tank top to the stunt woman on Twister." UNCOOL "Any TV series that has a Very Special Episode." -----------------

To tell you the truth, I don't think there are a lot of kids (up to 14) that are racing auto simulators in a ratio to ***s in a serious fation. As for *** agers most of them really enjoy hot rod, 67 mustang type cars more than the new cars. Yeah the vast majority of the *** market probably are kids, but I also think that most of the simulator type peole are in thier ***s twenties and older. The only think I see as a problem with this sim is that there's just a bunch of road couses. :( David Gary wrote

<snip> _Just_ a bunch of road courses?? You won't say that if it includes (as I think it will) Zandvoort, Spa Francorchamps, the old Watkins Glen, etc. I don't really want to fall into a "road courses are better than ovals" debate, but are you aware that the full-length Spa had a lap record of 160mph in these cars (over an 11km track) and the drivers were flat out for about 90% of the race? Sounds pretty similar to a lot of the ovals. Alan Head ????????? Berger to Engineer, Oz GP '97: Engineer: Gerhard, push, push, push. Ferrari have to do another stop. I repeat, push, push, push, Michael has to do another stop. Berger: Thank you very much, I am already on the fuc*ing limit. --------------------------------------------------------------------

>What are the system requirements going to be? I have not heard anything >about this. The game is over a year from release. I can't guess what the profile of the hardware market will look like a year from now, and neither can our marketing folks... ---Jim Sokoloff

<a lot of cool info clipped; has my stamp of approval ;> Wouldn't be Can-Am by any chance? Any hints? :) Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?

>Nothing beats the sound of a potent chevy engine going down a straight >at 6000+ revs. Except the sound of Ferrari's classic V-12 at 16,000+ rpm........ Unbelievable!!!!

> >Nothing beats the sound of a potent chevy engine going down a straight > >at 6000+ revs. > Except the sound of Ferrari's classic V-12 at 16,000+ rpm........ > Unbelievable!!!! That maybe true, but the places around here that have "vintage racing" only have the v-8 ferraris (Bob Norwood in his 288GTO and some of his other toys). The closest place near me for vintage racing allow all cars run no matter the age. Makes it interesting though.

Jim, It would be great if this new sim (and any future ones) had an inbuilt way of determining whether anyone had altered any of the car / driver abilities. It's good to have these facilities & editing options, and I'd hate to lose them, but I would dearly like to be involved in offline racing leagues where everyone plays on equal terms, and where results can be easily verified. Just a thought. Perhaps you could throw the idea in at the Papy office. All the best, Keith Windsor, UK (PS I'm already waiting in line for the 'Legends' sim, and the 'future product' you mentioned!!)

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>> >Nothing beats the sound of a potent chevy engine going down a straight >> >at 6000+ revs. >> Except the sound of Ferrari's classic V-12 at 16,000+ rpm........ >> Unbelievable!!!! >That maybe true, but the places around here that have "vintage racing" >only have the v-8 ferraris (Bob Norwood in his 288GTO and some of his >other toys). The closest place near me for vintage racing allow all >cars run no matter the age. Makes it interesting though.

myself i prefer the sound of the classic Formula 5000 Lolas and Trojans of the early 1970s - there are about 3/4 running in historic racing in the UK - something else !

>>Except the sound of Ferrari's classic V-12 at 16,000+ rpm........ >You mean nowadays, right John?? I'm sorry, if that was a joke it went over my head :-) These days Ferrari are using their V-10, as are Sauber. No V-12s on the grid anymore. The vrooooom, VROOOOOOOM, BOOOOOM! sounds you mean? ;-) Cheers! John

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> >>Except the sound of Ferrari's classic V-12 at 16,000+ rpm........ > >You mean nowadays, right John?? > I'm sorry, if that was a joke it went over my head :-) These days > Ferrari are using their V-10, as are Sauber. No V-12s on the grid > anymore.

<snip!> IMHO, i _don't_ think it was meant as a joke. If i'm not to far off here the "old" i.e. classic V12 Ferraris didn't rev. anywhere near 16.000 rpm. I think they didn't reach the 15K "bracket" before 1989 when 3.5 litres engines replaced the previous "turbo-era". Hence "nowadays". -- Ed_ - Norway "Early on, the cars were getting faster and faster. And with good reason: everybody was cheating." - Richard Petty

Ferrari used V-12 engines LONG after 1989 though...... Cheers! John

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>Jim, >It would be great if this new sim (and any future ones) had an inbuilt way >of determining whether anyone had altered any of the car / driver >abilities. It's good to have these facilities & editing options, and I'd >hate to lose them, but I would dearly like to be involved in offline racing >leagues where everyone plays on equal terms, and where results can be >easily verified. >Just a thought. Perhaps you could throw the idea in at the Papy office.

Already been thrown around a bit ...

: Ferrari used V-12 engines LONG after 1989 though...... Yea, but NOT to 16,000 rpm. That is an incredible number for an rpm figure.

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------------7B2B2A6E25620 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii <HTML><BODY> <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>On 2 Apr 1997 17:23:55 GMT, &quot;Edwin Solheim&quot; <BR> <BR><I>&gt;IMHO, i _don't_ think it was meant as a joke. If i'm not to far off here</I> <BR><I>&gt;the &quot;old&quot; i.e. classic V12 Ferraris didn't rev. anywhere near 16.000 rpm.</I> <BR><I>&gt;</I> <BR><I>&gt;I think they didn't reach the 15K &quot;bracket&quot; before 1989 when 3.5 litres</I> <BR><I>&gt;engines replaced the previous &quot;turbo-era&quot;. Hence &quot;nowadays&quot;.</I> <BR> <BR>Ferrari used V-12 engines LONG after 1989 though...... <BR> <BR>Cheers! <BR>John </BLOCKQUOTE> &nbsp;The latest V12 engines Ferrari used in F1 before they switched to V10's last year was reving up to 17 000+ rpm. This may not be what was originally referred to as old classic V12's though :&nbsp; ) <BR> <BR>Torgeir, Norway <BR> </BODY> </HTML> ------------7B2B2A6E25620 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Torgeir Foss Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="nsmailQA.TMP" Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="nsmailQA.TMP" BEGIN:VCARD FN:Torgeir Foss N:Foss;Torgeir TEL;HOME:90919984 X-MOZILLA-HTML:T END:VCARD ------------7B2B2A6E25620--

>: Ferrari used V-12 engines LONG after 1989 though...... >Yea, but NOT to 16,000 rpm. That is an incredible number for an rpm >figure. You're kidding right? 16,000rpm is a pretty common figure in F1 these days in normal use - actually engines have survived being revved much higher than that accidentally due to missed shifts in the older days or semi-auto gearbox glitches. Cheers! John

: >Yea, but NOT to 16,000 rpm. That is an incredible number for an rpm : >figure. : You're kidding right? 16,000rpm is a pretty common figure in F1 these : days in normal use - actually engines have survived being revved much : higher than that accidentally due to missed shifts in the older days : or semi-auto gearbox glitches. Yes, they rev modern F1 engines to 16,000 rpm. Even to 18,000 rpm in some cases. And yes they even RACE these engines at 16,000 rpm on a regular basis (17 times a year, plus all that testing). I'm talking older models. BEFORE they thought 16,000 rpm would be a regular figure, and in fact, be a crippling number if you are unable to obtain it. Yes, if you miss a shift and over-rev the engine it will survive, MAYBE. But John, they did not RACE engines in the old days to 16,000 rpm. Read the thread header. It says Historical SIM. It means in the 60's. I can assure you that not too many engines turned 16,000 rpm in those days, let alone over 10,000 rpm. This is really a useless discussion, though. It's supposed to be about the Historical SIM. Just thought I'd through in my 2 cents. Guess I didn't expect to get interest on it. ;) Oh, and here's another staggering figure. A Dremel tool turns at around 25,000 rpm. Now THAT is a high number, John, which even you can admit.;)

With pneumatic valves and all the lightweight alloys used in F1 engines it is actually quite easy to reach very high RPM figures. Renault admit openly that their latest V10 reaches 17000+ RPM. It's quite possible that the Ferrari V12 used last year could reach even higher figures. -- Geoff Schuler ------------------------------------------------------------------ Each + marks 1 Spammer whose Internet access has been cancelled as a result of my complaints to their ISP. You have been warned! + + + ------------------------------------------------------------------

and judged that the new physics model being developed would be Jim, I quess you could say that I'm of the older generation that grew up on 60 & 70s F1,Can-Am,& Trans-Am series. You dead right about having to use your feet as well as your hands to drive those race cars. There weren't very many ground effects other than the start of wings to give the cars down force,and the smaller dia, tires didn't really help to get the power to the road. Yet the racing was real close,much closer than you see today. In certain respects,F1 was much more interesting back then. It was common for F1 drivers to race in Can-Am,and even in Trans-Am. I personally would love to see a simm devoted to the all time horse power champions;Can-Am cars. Reguards, Joel Willstein

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> On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:20:23 -0500, David Gary > >What inspired you and your team to create a sim based > >on cars out of the '60s? > That's a fair question. Read on. > > Don't you think the "state of the art" > >appeals more to the "vast" market of *** fanatics(usually kids) more > >than something so far into the past? > The sixties Formula One cars were UNBELIEVABLE. What those guys were > willing to do to get those cars with insane horsepower to weight (and > horsepower to grip) ratios amazes me. Our games (with the possible > exceptions of Sony NASCAR) have never really appealed to the "kid" > market. I believe that our average user is older than I am.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jim, I believe your assumptions are accurate! Old guys (like myself!) dreamed of stuff like this when we were kids, now it has become a reality. We're also the ones that have some cash to spend on hardware and software! Besides, kids enjoy more arcade type games with lots of "crash and burn" effects. I teach in a high school, and I've had the opportunity to engage in many discussions on the subject with my students. My conclusions are therefore, fact-based and in all probability, representative of most ***age selections. It seems that they're not much interested in car setups and the like, unless they're really interested in the sport of auto racing. However, this has been rare in my experiences with them. One of my dreams as an "old guy", has been of a racing sim that featured the old SCCA racing days. Weekend battles between M.G.'s, Triumphs, Austin Healeys, etc., at places like Limerock or Watkins Glen. Possibly this could be a sequel to GPL..if all goes well! Hopefully, this will be the case. My gut feelings are in favor of a positive outcome. Cheers -- Lew Wiegand "The only difference between a man and a boy, is the price of his toys"

>But John, they did not RACE engines in the old days to 16,000 rpm. Read >the thread header. It says Historical SIM. It means in the 60's. I can >assure you that not too many engines turned 16,000 rpm in those days, let >alone over 10,000 rpm. Doug, who's talking about "Historical sims"? I referred to the "classic Ferrari", which for me is the V-12s which followed the turbo era. At 29 years old I'm pretty unlikely to remember the Ferraris of the '60's now am I?! Now the Ferrari I referred to did rev to 16,000 as I (correctly) stated, and I enjoyed this at many Grands Prix during the early 90's (watching it being beaten by Senna :) !!!). No problem with "admitting" to anything here Doug :-) Cheers! John

>Hi Jim, >Sorry for the thread drift, but do you guys have any plans to do a >motorcycle sim? Now that would be something. To date there has never been a good sim made yet. Imagine power sliding a NSR500 at Jerez... Shane Lansky Hobart,Tasmania Australia

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>>Hi Jim, >>Sorry for the thread drift, but do you guys have any plans to do a >>motorcycle sim? >Now that would be something. To date there has never been a good sim >made yet. Imagine power sliding a NSR500 at Jerez... >Shane Lansky >Hobart,Tasmania >Australia

The problem with a motorcycle sim is, what controller do you use for realism? I think the sim would get boring rather quickly.

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>>Hi Jim, >>Sorry for the thread drift, but do you guys have any plans to do a >>motorcycle sim? >Now that would be something. To date there has never been a good sim >made yet. Imagine power sliding a NSR500 at Jerez...

It'd also be interesting to compare a Papyrus Jerez with a Microprose Jerez... -- Dave Bowers

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>Besides, kids enjoy more arcade type games with lots of "crash and burn" >effects. I teach in a high school, and I've had the opportunity to >engage in many discussions on the subject with my students. My >conclusions are therefore, fact-based and in all probability, >representative of most ***age selections. It seems that they're not >much interested in car setups and the like, unless they're really >interested in the sport of auto racing. However, this has been rare in >my experiences with them.

you are very in tune with us teannagers. I've been enjoying auto racing since I was 8, so I was way ahead of my time (still so, at the age of 18) in mechanical knowledge. My first exposure? In Hong Kong, they broadcast the Macow Grand Prix every year that I can remember! Back then, all there was to watch was F3, showroom stock, and 250cc bikes, but it was still a blast. When I got into computers in '91 (12 years old), I looked for anything racing. There were no real sims back then (I kicked a** in Test Drive 2 :)), but as soon as I heard about Indycar Racing, I asked my Dad to upgrade my 286 to a 486. Since then, Papyrus has been keeping me racing! Anyways, some of my friends at school are into cars and computers and they've tried the Papyrus sims. They had no idea how to setup the cars. (part of the reason is the lack of literature in pirated games. I bought all my sims, BTW) They enjoy driving backwards, wipping out the field, and spectacular crashes. And they're proud to do 56 seconds at Long Beach in ICR1. I mentioned my 52.5, and they decided that it was all because of my ability to setup the car. How little they know about driving.... Gregory Fung Vancouver, B.C., Canada

16 here and I have been a racing fan since I was a young'n (2 1/2). My bro was going t races since he was 11 months old. Me? I buy a simulation for the just that. Not for an arcade game. I love N2 and I think that, with a few dixes, it could be a heckuva game. Undoubtedly it is the best one out there right now. Yall did a great job on it. What I DONT like is the commercialism Sierra has brought to Papyrus. They advertise a game with so much hype that you HAVE to get it out early and this is, in effect, what happens (a buggy game). Papy was doing fine on thier own Jim. Why'd they sell? Mike Frazer

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>>Besides, kids enjoy more arcade type games with lots of "crash and burn" >>effects. I teach in a high school, and I've had the opportunity to >>engage in many discussions on the subject with my students. My >>conclusions are therefore, fact-based and in all probability, >>representative of most ***age selections. It seems that they're not >>much interested in car setups and the like, unless they're really >>interested in the sport of auto racing. However, this has been rare in >>my experiences with them. >you are very in tune with us teannagers. I've been enjoying auto racing >since I was 8, so I was way ahead of my time (still so, at the age of 18) in >mechanical knowledge. My first exposure? In Hong Kong, they broadcast the >Macow Grand Prix every year that I can remember! Back then, all there was >to watch was F3, showroom stock, and 250cc bikes, but it was still a blast. >When I got into computers in '91 (12 years old), I looked for anything >racing. There were no real sims back then (I kicked a** in Test Drive 2 >:)), but as soon as I heard about Indycar Racing, I asked my Dad to upgrade >my 286 to a 486. Since then, Papyrus has been keeping me racing! >Anyways, some of my friends at school are into cars and computers and >they've tried the Papyrus sims. They had no idea how to setup the cars. >(part of the reason is the lack of literature in pirated games. I bought >all my sims, BTW) They enjoy driving backwards, wipping out the field, and >spectacular crashes. And they're proud to do 56 seconds at Long Beach in >ICR1. I mentioned my 52.5, and they decided that it was all because of my >ability to setup the car. How little they know about driving.... >Gregory Fung >Vancouver, B.C., Canada

Mike Frazer #11 American Airlines/STP/MBNA Ford, IGN Prime Time Motorsports