Realistic Heal-Toe?

Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe experience in Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trail brake". Also, that is relatively affordable... TIA, Dan

Dan <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<cB1Cc.66$[email hidden]>... > Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe experience in > Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, > clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trail brake". > Also, that is relatively affordable... I do this with my Act-Labs pedals and shifter. I also did it with TM NASCAR/F1 Pro pedals and T2 pedals modded to be clutch before I got the Act-Labs pedals. I'm not as fast as I was when I ran sequential shifting and clutch help, but I enjoy it more - which is what it's all about :) There are a few 3 pedal setups available and "affordable" is relative :) Regards, Mark Davison www.v8thunder.com

"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cB1Cc.66$[email hidden]... > Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe experience in > Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, > clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trail brake". Isn't it "brake, clutch-in, neutral, clutch out, blip throttle while braking, clutch in, gear in, clutch out, trail brake" in order to be realistic? Doesn't NASCAR racecars have an oldstyle gearbox as opposed to the semiautomatic stuff in WRC for example? In NASCAR 2003 you of course have to shift like you describe if you use a paddle shifter. A friend of mine has a BRD Speed 7 set which he drives just like you describe it, and he's just won our league. ;) Personally I'm faster with my trusty logitech MOMO pedals. I guess it's all up to what one are used to.

"Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:cB1Cc.66$[email hidden]... > > Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe experience in > > Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, > > clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trail brake". > > Isn't it "brake, clutch-in, neutral, clutch out, blip throttle while > braking, clutch in, gear in, clutch out, trail brake" in order to be > realistic? > Doesn't NASCAR racecars have an oldstyle gearbox as opposed to the > semiautomatic stuff in WRC for example? > > In NASCAR 2003 you of course have to shift like you describe if you use a > paddle shifter. > A friend of mine has a BRD Speed 7 set which he drives just like you > describe it, and he's just won our league. ;) > > Personally I'm faster with my trusty logitech MOMO pedals. I guess it's

all > up to what one are used to. > > I`ve got a set of BRD speed 7 pedals with the clutch... and there great...... alot of money i know....

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:56:19 +0200, "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:cB1Cc.66$[email hidden]... >> Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe experience in >> Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, >> clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trail brake". > >Isn't it "brake, clutch-in, neutral, clutch out, blip throttle while >braking, clutch in, gear in, clutch out, trail brake" in order to be >realistic?

Well, no. That's double-declutching which is used on non-synchromesh gearboxes. On gearboxes with syncromeshes it's not really that meaningful to double-declutch, if you're nottrying to save on the brass rings that is. :) Unsynchronised gearboxes should be pretty rare ever since the mid-sixties, except for american "big-rigs" and motorbike(and sequential) gearboxes. You still have to blip the throttle(heal-toe) to match the revs of the engine to that of the new gear for smooth downshifts.

"Magnus Svensson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:56:19 +0200, "Carl Ribbegaardh" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > >"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:cB1Cc.66$[email hidden]... > >> Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe experiencein > >> Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, > >> clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trailbrake".

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> > > >Isn't it "brake, clutch-in, neutral, clutch out, blip throttle while > >braking, clutch in, gear in, clutch out, trail brake" in order to be > >realistic? > > Well, no. That's double-declutching which is used on non-synchromesh > gearboxes. On gearboxes with syncromeshes it's not really that > meaningful to double-declutch, if you're nottrying to save on the > brass rings that is. :) Unsynchronised gearboxes should be pretty rare > ever since the mid-sixties, except for american "big-rigs" and > motorbike(and sequential) gearboxes. > > You still have to blip the throttle(heal-toe) to match the revs of the > engine to that of the new gear for smooth downshifts. >

I thought the Jerico WC4-4 was non synchro? I think the Van Diemen Fords also are using non synchro gearboxes. On the other hand I've read that it should be possible to just slam the gears in even on downshift, using a Jerico box, but I guess clutching and revmatching is better if it's possible. On the other hand I'm just a computer geek, and have never driven an unsynced box. I have to settle with double-clutching my toyota corolla ;)

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:53:15 +0200, "Carl Ribbegaardh" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"Magnus Svensson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:56:19 +0200, "Carl Ribbegaardh" >> <[email hidden]> wrote: >> >> >"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> >news:cB1Cc.66$[email hidden]... >> >> Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe experience >in >> >> Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, >> >> clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trail >brake". >> > >> >Isn't it "brake, clutch-in, neutral, clutch out, blip throttle while >> >braking, clutch in, gear in, clutch out, trail brake" in order to be >> >realistic? >> >> Well, no. That's double-declutching which is used on non-synchromesh >> gearboxes. On gearboxes with syncromeshes it's not really that >> meaningful to double-declutch, if you're nottrying to save on the >> brass rings that is. :) Unsynchronised gearboxes should be pretty rare >> ever since the mid-sixties, except for american "big-rigs" and >> motorbike(and sequential) gearboxes. >> >> You still have to blip the throttle(heal-toe) to match the revs of the >> engine to that of the new gear for smooth downshifts. >> > >I thought the Jerico WC4-4 was non synchro? I think the Van Diemen Fords >also are using non synchro gearboxes. >On the other hand I've read that it should be possible to just slam the >gears in even on downshift, using a Jerico box, but I guess clutching and >revmatching is better if it's possible.

I checked it out, I had absolutely no idea what those tanks actually were using, but it(Jerico WC) seems to use dog-rings, which is a sort of syncromesh which makes the cogs set in certain positions so you actually just jam into next gear without engaging the clutch with a lift of throttle(or ignition-cutout) on upshifts. On downshifts however you must(well, should... it can be done otherwise) use the clutch. But double-declutching isn't necessary. The revmatching also isn't for the functioning of the gearbox primarily, it's so you don't upset the car by spinning up the engine with your rear tyres.

go find the Juan Pablo Montoya Jeff Gordon swap. watch JPM downshift in the 24 car, he is left foot braking, and blips the accel as he pushes the gear lever through neutral. you dont need to clutch in with the current nascar gearboxes on upshift or downshift. you just, you know, lift and shift. pez "Magnus Svensson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:53:15 +0200, "Carl Ribbegaardh" > <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > >"Magnus Svensson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >news:[email hidden]... > >> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:56:19 +0200, "Carl Ribbegaardh" > >> <[email hidden]> wrote: > >> > >> >"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> >news:cB1Cc.66$[email hidden]... > >> >> Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe

experience

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> >in > >> >> Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, > >> >> clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trail > >brake". > >> > > >> >Isn't it "brake, clutch-in, neutral, clutch out, blip throttle while > >> >braking, clutch in, gear in, clutch out, trail brake" in order to be > >> >realistic? > >> > >> Well, no. That's double-declutching which is used on non-synchromesh > >> gearboxes. On gearboxes with syncromeshes it's not really that > >> meaningful to double-declutch, if you're nottrying to save on the > >> brass rings that is. :) Unsynchronised gearboxes should be pretty rare > >> ever since the mid-sixties, except for american "big-rigs" and > >> motorbike(and sequential) gearboxes. > >> > >> You still have to blip the throttle(heal-toe) to match the revs of the > >> engine to that of the new gear for smooth downshifts. > >> > > > >I thought the Jerico WC4-4 was non synchro? I think the Van Diemen Fords > >also are using non synchro gearboxes. > >On the other hand I've read that it should be possible to just slam the > >gears in even on downshift, using a Jerico box, but I guess clutching and > >revmatching is better if it's possible. > > I checked it out, I had absolutely no idea what those tanks actually > were using, but it(Jerico WC) seems to use dog-rings, which is a sort > of syncromesh which makes the cogs set in certain positions so you > actually just jam into next gear without engaging the clutch with a > lift of throttle(or ignition-cutout) on upshifts. On downshifts > however you must(well, should... it can be done otherwise) use the > clutch. But double-declutching isn't necessary. > > The revmatching also isn't for the functioning of the gearbox > primarily, it's so you don't upset the car by spinning up the engine > with your rear tyres. > >

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:09:19 +0100, "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> >> I checked it out, I had absolutely no idea what those tanks actually >> were using, but it(Jerico WC) seems to use dog-rings, which is a sort >> of syncromesh which makes the cogs set in certain positions so you >> actually just jam into next gear without engaging the clutch with a >> lift of throttle(or ignition-cutout) on upshifts. On downshifts >> however you must(well, should... it can be done otherwise) use the >> clutch. But double-declutching isn't necessary. >> >> The revmatching also isn't for the functioning of the gearbox >> primarily, it's so you don't upset the car by spinning up the engine >> with your rear tyres. >> >> > >go find the Juan Pablo Montoya Jeff Gordon swap. > >watch JPM downshift in the 24 car, he is left foot braking, and blips the >accel as he pushes the gear lever through neutral. > >you dont need to clutch in with the current nascar gearboxes on upshift or >downshift. > >you just, you know, lift and shift.

Nice, I know it can be done that way(that's why I put in the caveat above), but I didn't know if they did it in practice. Jacques Villeneuve claimed he did it aswell during his Toyota Atlantic days and when he drove a Lotus 72.

I think you were ok until the last sentence LOL -Larry "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cB1Cc.66$[email hidden]...

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> Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe experience in > Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, > clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trail brake". > Also, that is relatively affordable... > > TIA, > Dan

one option is to buy 2 wheels and then just put your pedals next to each other. cheap pez "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:BPECc.6572$rf7.2081@lakeread02...

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> I think you were ok until the last sentence LOL > > -Larry > > "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:cB1Cc.66$[email hidden]... > > Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe experience in > > Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, > > clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trail brake". > > Also, that is relatively affordable... > > > > TIA, > > Dan > >

That's an interesting concept I've never thought of! I have two older MSFFW's. I might play around with that idea. It's a shame the PS connector is on the wheel though :( -Larry "Pez" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:M0KCc.21151$[email hidden]...

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> one option is to buy 2 wheels and then just put your pedals next to each > other. > > cheap > > pez > > "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:BPECc.6572$rf7.2081@lakeread02... > > I think you were ok until the last sentence LOL > > > > -Larry > > > > "Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:cB1Cc.66$[email hidden]... > > > Are there any pedal sets that provide a realistic heel-toe experience

in > > > Toca Race Driver 2 and Nascar 2003? That is heel-toe as in "brake, > > > clutch-in, blip throttle while braking, shift, clutch out, trailbrake".

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> > > Also, that is relatively affordable... > > > > > > TIA, > > > Dan > > > > > >

Hi Dan, You are not going to find much in the way of "realistic" in any type of "gaming" controls you would buy from a computer store or retail game controller manufacturer. I assume that's what you mean by "relatively affordable?" Even the so called "spendy" units from BRD, Redline and others, don't offer much more realism, just metal (instead of plastic) and some improved life-span, mechanically. If you want totally realistic racing controls for your sim racing, then you have to use real-world racing controls (wheels and pedals). Here's a video of a lap at Watkins Glen in sim control pedals made from Wildwood pedals....similar to those used in most Cup cars these days (most teams are making their pedals themselves now). This video is from my Cup cockpit simulator. www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/wg_lap.avi By the way, I don't actually drive my cup car as I do in this video. I did it for this video because one of our coaching clients wanted a look at true sports-car-style heel and toe footwork. Cup car tranny's don't require clutching either up or down, though many drivers do clutch when shifting up through the gears....more of a "confidence/timing" thing than anything else. Almost all of them now are left foot braking on the road courses. Take care, Tom

would you mind if i repost this over at sierras n2004 forum? if youd like me to take it down, no problem. pez "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Jy7Ec.196101$Ly.13988@attbi_s01...

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> Hi Dan, > > You are not going to find much in the way of "realistic" in any type of > "gaming" controls you would buy from a computer store or retail game > controller manufacturer. I assume that's what you mean by "relatively > affordable?" > > Even the so called "spendy" units from BRD, Redline and others, don't

offer > much more realism, just metal (instead of plastic) and some improved > life-span, mechanically. > > If you want totally realistic racing controls for your sim racing, thenyou

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> have to use real-world racing controls (wheels and pedals). > > Here's a video of a lap at Watkins Glen in sim control pedals made from > Wildwood pedals....similar to those used in most Cup cars these days (most > teams are making their pedals themselves now). This video is from my Cup > cockpit simulator. > > www.pabst-racing.com/webscreens/wg_lap.avi > > By the way, I don't actually drive my cup car as I do in this video. I

did > it for this video because one of our coaching clients wanted a look attrue > sports-car-style heel and toe footwork. Cup car tranny's don't require > clutching either up or down, though many drivers do clutch when shiftingup > through the gears....more of a "confidence/timing" thing than anythingelse.

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> Almost all of them now are left foot braking on the road courses. > > Take care, > > Tom > >

Hi Pez, I assume you mean "repost the link to the video?" Don't know that the text of the post would be appropriate to repost...kind of out of context, you know? I hadn't planned on leaving it up on my website for more than a few days (until this r.a.s. string died out). But I will leave it up for a couple weeks if you post it at Sierra. The file is taking up bandwidth un-necessarily on my website, otherwise I'd leave it there permanently. I only wanted to show Dan and others who read this string that realistic heel-toe braking techniques were possible with simulators if real-world hardware was used for the controls. I've had real-world stock car and GT sports car drivers in that same simulator, and within a few laps of driving they essentially heel-toe just as I am doing in that video. It's a very rapid adaptation because the pedals are similar to almost to an exact degree, to what they find in their real race cars. We just recently built a set of pedals for a Toyota Atlantic race car, and the entire pedal system mimics those of a real Atlantic car (Swift) exactly. Even the brake, which only moves a 1/4 inch total (at 400lbs foot pressure on the pedal) at the tip of the pedal face......but rotates the pot almost 270 degrees! We are working on a braking system right now that uses "pressure sensors" rather than potentiometers, that will work even better! Keep in mind, this stuff is not being built for the hobby level online sim racer. The pedals in that video would cost about $3500 if we sold them as "retail." The Atlantic pedals cost us over $6,000 to build... at our costs. That means they'd have to sell for around $10K.....as you can see this, is not something for the average sim racer. But it does show what is possible....and what everyone can strive for in terms of realism for their racing controls. Regards, Tom

Cheers Tom, impressive stuff (the driving and the pedals!) Do cars with Dog boxes require you to always heel and toe and clutch when downshifting? I used to race cars that had the hewland ld200 box on them and they seemed to not mind upshifting just with a lift of the throttle (no clutch) but we had it drummed into us to heel/toe and clutch on downshifts (i was told that id destroy that box if i tried to GPL it!). Is it harmfull to the gearbox in a car with a dog box not to clutch on downshifts and to use the same method that the nsacar drivers use with their jericos (and as such the same method most pc racers use) ? what about sequential boxes as used in gt cars (for example). Clutch or no clutch, or does it really depend on how tough the gearbox is? what allows for no clutch use in a jerico (a dog box) but would require it in something like the hewland ld200 (another dog box)? cheers! Ive also found this link to Mike Vergers (current ASCAR racer, former ARCA, and one of my former instructors at silverstone) heel and toeing a Radical around. http://www.radicalsportscars.com/gallery/mv_feet.mpg pez "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aRoEc.1777$Oq2.272@attbi_s52... > Hi Pez, > > I assume you mean "repost the link to the video?" Don't know that thetext

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> of the post would be appropriate to repost...kind of out of context, you > know? > > I hadn't planned on leaving it up on my website for more than a few days > (until this r.a.s. string died out). But I will leave it up for a couple > weeks if you post it at Sierra. The file is taking up bandwidth > un-necessarily on my website, otherwise I'd leave it there permanently. > > I only wanted to show Dan and others who read this string that realistic > heel-toe braking techniques were possible with simulators if real-world > hardware was used for the controls. I've had real-world stock car and GT > sports car drivers in that same simulator, and within a few laps of

driving > they essentially heel-toe just as I am doing in that video. It's a very > rapid adaptation because the pedals are similar to almost to an exact > degree, to what they find in their real race cars. > > We just recently built a set of pedals for a Toyota Atlantic race car, and > the entire pedal system mimics those of a real Atlantic car (Swift)exactly.

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> Even the brake, which only moves a 1/4 inch total (at 400lbs foot pressure > on the pedal) at the tip of the pedal face......but rotates the pot almost > 270 degrees! We are working on a braking system right now that uses > "pressure sensors" rather than potentiometers, that will work even better! > > Keep in mind, this stuff is not being built for the hobby level online sim > racer. The pedals in that video would cost about $3500 if we sold them as > "retail." The Atlantic pedals cost us over $6,000 to build... at our

costs.

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> That means they'd have to sell for around $10K.....as you can see this, is > not something for the average sim racer. But it does show what is > possible....and what everyone can strive for in terms of realism for their > racing controls. > > Regards, > > Tom > >

Just got a great email from the guys at Hewland explaining some stuff that i think would be beneficial to all in this community. Gear box usage http://www.porazinski.plus.com/ pez "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aRoEc.1777$Oq2.272@attbi_s52... > Hi Pez, > > I assume you mean "repost the link to the video?" Don't know that thetext

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> of the post would be appropriate to repost...kind of out of context, you > know? > > I hadn't planned on leaving it up on my website for more than a few days > (until this r.a.s. string died out). But I will leave it up for a couple > weeks if you post it at Sierra. The file is taking up bandwidth > un-necessarily on my website, otherwise I'd leave it there permanently. > > I only wanted to show Dan and others who read this string that realistic > heel-toe braking techniques were possible with simulators if real-world > hardware was used for the controls. I've had real-world stock car and GT > sports car drivers in that same simulator, and within a few laps of

driving > they essentially heel-toe just as I am doing in that video. It's a very > rapid adaptation because the pedals are similar to almost to an exact > degree, to what they find in their real race cars. > > We just recently built a set of pedals for a Toyota Atlantic race car, and > the entire pedal system mimics those of a real Atlantic car (Swift)exactly.

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> Even the brake, which only moves a 1/4 inch total (at 400lbs foot pressure > on the pedal) at the tip of the pedal face......but rotates the pot almost > 270 degrees! We are working on a braking system right now that uses > "pressure sensors" rather than potentiometers, that will work even better! > > Keep in mind, this stuff is not being built for the hobby level online sim > racer. The pedals in that video would cost about $3500 if we sold them as > "retail." The Atlantic pedals cost us over $6,000 to build... at our

costs.

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> That means they'd have to sell for around $10K.....as you can see this, is > not something for the average sim racer. But it does show what is > possible....and what everyone can strive for in terms of realism for their > racing controls. > > Regards, > > Tom > >

Hi Tom, hows about this (and sorry for trying to post it AGAIN! - i just think it would eliminate the need for dodgy user customisable steering options that should really be garage tweaks, not UI tweaks - a standard for a software programmable wheel would do the trick) this is something im trying to propagate to get people to ask for more than just momos for racing games... Well, ive not had any response to the mails ive sent to simbin yet, but i think this is something that would help advance our hobby a little. realistic wheels (sounds simple!) heres a copy of the posts ive made: Hello, My names Alex Porazinski, ive been discussing steering wheels for racing games with Manuel Daskalos (tech advisor on Papyrus' NASCAR Racing 2003) and he told me that the steering lock on NASCAR racing cars steering wheels is dictated by the relationship between the steering ratio and the maximum steering angle available on the front wheels (which is dictated usually by the suspension or wheel well itself), so the max lock never really changes, what changes is the amount of rotation available on the steering wheel (at least this is how it appears on NASCAR nextel cup stock cars with geared steering), ie. the steering speed. I sent an email to the guys at Ball Racing Developments ( http://www.interactiveracing.com ) who are currently developing a new force feedback controller, and i was wondering whether they could build a locking mechanism into the wheel that could be software controlled, so that its set depending on your steering ratio set in the garage of the racing sim. Tim Ball sent back a reply indicating that a software controlled locking mechanism could be implemented. Would it be possible to do this with GTR? vids look great so far and im aware of the great things you guys did with the f1 series mods. If SimBin (a company that seems dedicated not only to the casual sim market but also to the hardcore, as are Ball Racing Developments) could tie up with a company like BRD to develop this kindof simulation steering wheel, then we'd all be 'one step closer to the ultimate racing experience'. The current MSFF and Logitech wheels are nice enough, but we (the hardcore) would love to have realistic wheels (which we dont have). Race cars have different amount of lock available to them depending on many things, and having multiple cars in a sim like GTR (which is looking great btw) would provide an excellent opportunity to not only adjust the steering wheel lock based on your garage 'wheel lock' setting, but also from car to car. Itd be great to jump into a single seater in a sim and have the wheel be told by the software what range of motion to allow (which from experience isnt that much), and then jump into a GT car with the same wheel and voila, more lock because the software has told the wheel where the stops need to come in. Maybe you and BRD could discuss this matter? I think (if my understanding is correct in all of this) that the above described concept would take us sim fans to almost completely realistic steering input devices, whadya think? sorry if it all sounds like a ramble, but its just an idea ive had running through my head for a while. Best Regards, Alex Porazinski : What im asking for is software locking for the BRD wheel thats activated in the game depending on your car and car suspension settings (as in real life). Id assume this will take people like Simbin talking to BRD to get it working. im fed up with 270 deg wheels, and the 900degree wheel that logitech has out is nice, but its still a fair way from 'realistic'. whadya think? As for realistic shifting techniques, you dont need the clutch according to Hewland (the gearbox manufacturer of choice in GT racing) see http://www.porazinski.plus.com for the email i got back from them So, my requests (in order of preference and what i believe to be importance) 1. Realistic Steering for all cars modelled - Sim Wheels that are told by the software how many degrees of lock they have. If im driving a Fiat Seicento in a race game i want my wheel to go around 4 times from lock to lock, adding as much angle to the fronts as my real car does (yep, i drive one!), then if i jump into another car (say a formula car) i want the 360degs or so and the limited steering circle. Then into a Lister, etc etc. What i dont want is 270degree limits, or 900limits that have to be tailored by the users - the technology is there to have the wheel be told by the software what the car is and how many degrees it should have on it. I dont want Low Speed Steering Hacks, and no linearity slider for the requested wheel. 2. Realistic Shifting - Force Feedback shifters that only go into gear if youve done it properly (see the lengthly post ive made above!). 3. Realistic brake pedals - A force feedback brake would be nice, but as ive said, it would only help in judging brake wear. pez "Tom Pabst" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:aRoEc.1777$Oq2.272@attbi_s52... > Hi Pez, > > I assume you mean "repost the link to the video?" Don't know that thetext

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> of the post would be appropriate to repost...kind of out of context, you > know? > > I hadn't planned on leaving it up on my website for more than a few days > (until this r.a.s. string died out). But I will leave it up for a couple > weeks if you post it at Sierra. The file is taking up bandwidth > un-necessarily on my website, otherwise I'd leave it there permanently. > > I only wanted to show Dan and others who read this string that realistic > heel-toe braking techniques were possible with simulators if real-world > hardware was used for the controls. I've had real-world stock car and GT > sports car drivers in that same simulator, and within a few laps of

driving > they essentially heel-toe just as I am doing in that video. It's a very > rapid adaptation because the pedals are similar to almost to an exact > degree, to what they find in their real race cars. > > We just recently built a set of pedals for a Toyota Atlantic race car, and > the entire pedal system mimics those of a real Atlantic car (Swift)exactly.

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> Even the brake, which only moves a 1/4 inch total (at 400lbs foot pressure > on the pedal) at the tip of the pedal face......but rotates the pot almost > 270 degrees! We are working on a braking system right now that uses > "pressure sensors" rather than potentiometers, that will work even better! > > Keep in mind, this stuff is not being built for the hobby level online sim > racer. The pedals in that video would cost about $3500 if we sold them as > "retail." The Atlantic pedals cost us over $6,000 to build... at our

costs.

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> That means they'd have to sell for around $10K.....as you can see this, is > not something for the average sim racer. But it does show what is > possible....and what everyone can strive for in terms of realism for their > racing controls. > > Regards, > > Tom > >