Black Flagging in NCR2

I've noticed that only the human opponents can be black flagged during pace laps in NCR2. Like when I qualify first and let the guy behind me overtake, when we go green he will not do a stop/go penalty. BTW, I got NCR2 and ICR2 bundeled together for 30 UPK which was rather smart, in *** Megastore... TkT

On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 18:12:49 +0000, Tekno Tom >I've noticed that only the human opponents can be black flagged during >pace laps in NCR2. Like when I qualify first and let the guy behind me >overtake, when we go green he will not do a stop/go penalty. That is correct. In real WCup racing, if you gave up your position in the same way, the car behind you would not be black flagged... (Drivers are free to voluntarily give up their position.) (That's not to say that we always do the right thing with the AI cars and flags, but in this case, our behavior does actually match the behavior of timing & scoring at a Winston Cup event...) ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

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> >I've noticed that only the human opponents can be black flagged during > >pace laps in NCR2. Like when I qualify first and let the guy behind me > >overtake, when we go green he will not do a stop/go penalty. > >BTW, I got NCR2 and ICR2 bundeled together for 30 UPK which was rather > >smart, in *** Megastore... > >TkT > This makes sense... imagine if they COULD be black flagged. All you > would have to do is let yourself fall from the front of the grid > to the back during a pace lap and ALL the other cars would incur > a black flag! The only way around this (short of some very smart > AI routines to determine whether cars in a pace procession are > liable for black flags) would be to force all computer cars > following a human in a pace procession to slow up with him, which > would look pretty ridiculous - especially if you were to come to > a complete halt! > Fraser

Unless I am mistaken they do that. I have noticed if I stop they stop.

Also in REAL winston cup, if you pass on the inside BEFORE the start/finish line you will be black flagged. NASCAR1 & NASCAR2 missed this one. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Payton W. Snider II homepage: http://www.aonline.com/~sniderp Thought of the day: A goal is a dream with a deadline. > On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 18:12:49 +0000, Tekno Tom > That is correct. In real WCup racing, if you gave up your position in > the same way, the car behind you would not be black flagged... > (Drivers are free to voluntarily give up their position.) > (That's not to say that we always do the right thing with the AI cars > and flags, but in this case, our behavior does actually match the > behavior of timing & scoring at a Winston Cup event...) > ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

On 8 Jan 1997 05:41:37 GMT, "Payton W. Snider II" >Also in REAL winston cup, if you pass on the inside BEFORE the start/finish >line you will be black flagged. NASCAR1 & NASCAR2 missed this one. That was always my understanding of the rule as well, but in carefully reading the 1996 rulebook, it appears that this is explicitly stated for the initial start of the race (to begin lap 1), but the wording for a restart was something to the effect of "racing shall resume immediately upon display of the green flag." (I don't have a rulebook at home) I tend to think that the de facto rule is what you've stated above, though the rulebook seems to suggest otherwise for restarts. And you are correct, we do not enforce the distinction between passing on the left and the right. ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

This makes sense... imagine if they COULD be black flagged. All you would have to do is let yourself fall from the front of the grid to the back during a pace lap and ALL the other cars would incur a black flag! The only way around this (short of some very smart AI routines to determine whether cars in a pace procession are liable for black flags) would be to force all computer cars following a human in a pace procession to slow up with him, which would look pretty ridiculous - especially if you were to come to a complete halt! Fraser

Just another one of those simple things to implement that got overlooked. I think NCR6 is scheduled to have this. David Martin

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> On 8 Jan 1997 05:41:37 GMT, "Payton W. Snider II" > >Also in REAL winston cup, if you pass on the inside BEFORE the start/finish > >line you will be black flagged. NASCAR1 & NASCAR2 missed this one. > That was always my understanding of the rule as well, but in carefully > reading the 1996 rulebook, it appears that this is explicitly stated > for the initial start of the race (to begin lap 1), but the wording > for a restart was something to the effect of "racing shall resume > immediately upon display of the green flag." (I don't have a rulebook > at home) > I tend to think that the de facto rule is what you've stated above, > though the rulebook seems to suggest otherwise for restarts. > And you are correct, we do not enforce the distinction between passing > on the left and the right. > ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Since the first official lap does not begin until cars cross the S/F line for the first time under green, no passing should be allowed at all on the initial start until you have passed the S/F line. This means no passing on the right or the left. I think we would all agree that it would be hard for any software company to keep up with the changing rules of a sport that they are simulating, however, rules are made to prevent unfair advantages given to any particular participant and to ensure that competition continue in an organized manner. If Papyrus can't predict what a rule will be or if they can't decide how to implement a rule, they should decide upon something that fulfills the basic function of a rule. In this case, Papyrus should implement code that penalizes any car that passes before the S/F line at the beginning of a race, and penalizes any car that times the restart so as to pass several cars easily. This second problem would be difficult but I believe a solution is possible. David Martin

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> > On 8 Jan 1997 05:41:37 GMT, "Payton W. Snider II" > > >Also in REAL winston cup, if you pass on the inside BEFORE the start/finish > > >line you will be black flagged. NASCAR1 & NASCAR2 missed this one. > > That was always my understanding of the rule as well, but in carefully > > reading the 1996 rulebook, it appears that this is explicitly stated > > for the initial start of the race (to begin lap 1), but the wording > > for a restart was something to the effect of "racing shall resume > > immediately upon display of the green flag." (I don't have a rulebook > > at home) > > I tend to think that the de facto rule is what you've stated above, > > though the rulebook seems to suggest otherwise for restarts. > > And you are correct, we do not enforce the distinction between passing > > on the left and the right. > > ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus > Since the first official lap does not begin until cars cross the S/F > line for the first time under green, no passing should be allowed at all > on the initial start until you have passed the S/F line. This means no > passing on the right or the left. > I think we would all agree that it would be hard for any software > company to keep up with the changing rules of a sport that they are > simulating, however, rules are made to prevent unfair advantages given > to any particular participant and to ensure that competition continue in > an organized manner. If Papyrus can't predict what a rule will be or if > they can't decide how to implement a rule, they should decide upon > something that fulfills the basic function of a rule. In this case, > Papyrus should implement code that penalizes any car that passes before > the S/F line at the beginning of a race, and penalizes any car that > times the restart so as to pass several cars easily. This second > problem would be difficult but I believe a solution is possible. > David Martin

Or people could just try to play fair...yeah, that's the ticket!