Due to lack of SAVE GAME--I have returned N2

Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra, You have created highly sophisticated products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your customer base is a group of unsophisticated morons with the attention span of Beavis and Butthead. I for one have spent literally countless hundreds of hours with NASCAR Racing 1. The feature which allowed that was the save game feature. For some inexplicable reason, something which was already in place and worked just fine, if a bit unrealisticly, was simply dropped from what otherwise is a marvelous second effort in NASCAR 2. It was not, however, marvelous enough to prevent me from returning the product for a refund and going back to the original NASCAR Racing. While the graphics and internal physics of NASCAR 2 are clearly superior, for me, they do not outweigh the lack of the save game features of the original. I have read that some people think of them as 'cheat features'. I myself do not use them as such, and frankly, so what if they are???? After purchasing the product, the customer can use it as he sees fit! It's his game! He can play it the way he wants too! As you know, to setup and test a car, qualify, and run a race at 100% length, is a monumental task if done seriuosly. It requires a bare minumum of six hours. Eight to twelve is not out of line to a real fanatic. Why have you taken the time to create such involved car setup capabilities and then for all intents and purposes, eliminated the ability of the user to truly make use of them?!? On a purely logical note, What about power failures? I make a habit of saving in progress races every 100 laps just to prevent any really annoying surprises. Granted, not overly realistic, but on the otherhand, it is just a game and ever since the time I was in second at C***te in the 600 with 17 laps to go with the skill level at 105% and trading paint with Marlin for the lead when the power went out without any previous saves going back to qualifying.....well, you get the picture. The biggest question here is why eliminate it? It was avaliable in the original NASCAR Racing. Microproses GRAND PRIX 2 is easily as complex and sophisticated (probably more so) as NASCAR 2 and it has a very simple and basic save feature that can be used at any time and picks up the race exactly as it was running when saved! So why the neglect of such an important and yet basic feature? Again, I can only assume it is because some of the powers that be at Papyrus and Sierra think of NASCAR Racing fans as nothing more than advanced Nintendo and Sega players who don't have the desire or attention span to utilize such a mundane or archaic and ergo, useless feature. So, after giving it a fair trial run, I have returned NASCAR 2 for a full refund to my retailer. He told me I was not the first at his store to do so based on the lack of this very feature. I will instantly repurchase it if a patch is issued correcting this incredibly glaring defect. In the meantime, I will be content with the original or other companies products. A disappointed customer, Rick West

I don't understand your logic. Wouldn't it be better to continue to practice qualifying and running shorter races in anticipation of the patch than to just quit using what you admit is a superior sim. You can still run the 100% races on N1 -- Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA RaceTime utility program for Nascar1/Indycar2. http://www.metronet.com/~cstuart/

Who said anything about Papyrus planning a patch for this problem? :( Earl

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>Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra, > You have created highly sophisticated >products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your >customer base is a group of unsophisticated morons with the attention >span of Beavis and Butthead. I for one have spent literally countless >hundreds of hours with NASCAR Racing 1. The feature which allowed that >was the save game feature. For some inexplicable reason, something which >was already in place and worked just fine, if a bit unrealisticly, was >simply dropped from what otherwise is a marvelous second effort in >NASCAR 2. It was not, however, marvelous enough to prevent me from >returning the product for a refund and going back to the original NASCAR >Racing. While the graphics and internal physics of NASCAR 2 are clearly >superior, for me, they do not outweigh the lack of the save game >features of the original. I have read that some people think of them as >'cheat features'. I myself do not use them as such, and frankly, so what >if they are???? After purchasing the product, the customer can use it as >he sees fit! It's his game! He can play it the way he wants too! > As you know, to setup and test a car, qualify, and run a race >at 100% length, is a monumental task if done seriuosly. It requires a >bare minumum of six hours. Eight to twelve is not out of line to a real >fanatic. Why have you taken the time to create such involved car setup >capabilities and then for all intents and purposes, eliminated the >ability of the user to truly make use of them?!? > On a purely logical note, What about power failures? I make a >habit of saving in progress races every 100 laps just to prevent any >really annoying surprises. Granted, not overly realistic, but on the >otherhand, it is just a game and ever since the time I was in second at >C***te in the 600 with 17 laps to go with the skill level at 105% and >trading paint with Marlin for the lead when the power went out >without any previous saves going back to qualifying.....well, you get >the picture. > The biggest question here is why eliminate it? It was avaliable >in the original NASCAR Racing. Microproses GRAND PRIX 2 is easily as >complex and sophisticated (probably more so) as NASCAR 2 and it has a >very simple and basic save feature that can be used at any time and >picks up the race exactly as it was running when saved! So why the >neglect of such an important and yet basic feature? Again, I can only >assume it is because some of the powers that be at Papyrus and Sierra >think of NASCAR Racing fans as nothing more than advanced Nintendo and >Sega players who don't have the desire or attention span to utilize such >a mundane or archaic and ergo, useless feature. > So, after giving it a fair trial run, I have returned NASCAR 2 >for a full refund to my retailer. He told me I was not the first at his >store to do so based on the lack of this very feature. I will instantly >repurchase it if a patch is issued correcting this incredibly glaring >defect. In the meantime, I will be content with the original or other >companies products. > A disappointed customer, > Rick West

Your absolutly right!!! But if you and others notice Sierra-Papy don't want any negative feedback, just your money. If you read the rules for customer support the say "We won't accept negative feedback" My e-mail was returned (unopened) What support!!!!!

>Your absolutly right!!! But if you and others notice Sierra-Papy don't >want any negative feedback, just your money. If you read the rules for >customer support the say "We won't accept negative feedback" >My e-mail was returned (unopened) What support!!!!! Where exactly does it say this? ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus, wondering what I've been doing here for the last month (I guess "not" accepting negative feedback...)

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> Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra, > You have created highly sophisticated > products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your > customer base is a group of unsophisticated morons with the attention > span of Beavis and Butthead. I for one have spent literally countless > hundreds of hours with NASCAR Racing 1. The feature which allowed that > was the save game feature. For some inexplicable reason, something which > was already in place and worked just fine, if a bit unrealisticly, was > simply dropped from what otherwise is a marvelous second effort in > NASCAR 2. It was not, however, marvelous enough to prevent me from > returning the product for a refund and going back to the original NASCAR > Racing. While the graphics and internal physics of NASCAR 2 are clearly > superior, for me, they do not outweigh the lack of the save game > features of the original. I have read that some people think of them as > 'cheat features'. I myself do not use them as such, and frankly, so what > if they are???? After purchasing the product, the customer can use it as > he sees fit! It's his game! He can play it the way he wants too! > As you know, to setup and test a car, qualify, and run a race > at 100% length, is a monumental task if done seriuosly. It requires a > bare minumum of six hours. Eight to twelve is not out of line to a real > fanatic. Why have you taken the time to create such involved car setup > capabilities and then for all intents and purposes, eliminated the > ability of the user to truly make use of them?!? > On a purely logical note, What about power failures? I make a > habit of saving in progress races every 100 laps just to prevent any > really annoying surprises. Granted, not overly realistic, but on the > otherhand, it is just a game and ever since the time I was in second at > C***te in the 600 with 17 laps to go with the skill level at 105% and > trading paint with Marlin for the lead when the power went out > without any previous saves going back to qualifying.....well, you get > the picture. > The biggest question here is why eliminate it? It was avaliable > in the original NASCAR Racing. Microproses GRAND PRIX 2 is easily as > complex and sophisticated (probably more so) as NASCAR 2 and it has a > very simple and basic save feature that can be used at any time and > picks up the race exactly as it was running when saved! So why the > neglect of such an important and yet basic feature? Again, I can only > assume it is because some of the powers that be at Papyrus and Sierra > think of NASCAR Racing fans as nothing more than advanced Nintendo and > Sega players who don't have the desire or attention span to utilize such > a mundane or archaic and ergo, useless feature. > So, after giving it a fair trial run, I have returned NASCAR 2 > for a full refund to my retailer. He told me I was not the first at his > store to do so based on the lack of this very feature. I will instantly > repurchase it if a patch is issued correcting this incredibly glaring > defect. In the meantime, I will be content with the original or other > companies products. > A disappointed customer, > Rick West

Rick definitely has a point, but what I think he is missing is that Sierra obviously sees nascar2 as an online racing adventure. Bear with me on my long winded theory: instead of pricing the game at 40-50 dollars (Nascar1) it is easily found for $30 (direct from Sierra/Best Buy/CompUsa), but the customer is eventually going to be spending $10 per month in online racing charges, therefore turning what was a 40-50 dollar revenue producer (Nascar1) into a $120 per year revenue producer (Nascar2). You the customer doesn't need a save race option when you are racing online. Even the folks who are not completely fanatical, like me, will try the online service because it will be fun, their will be no AI bugs of cars going 500 mph in reverse, it will just be rumbums like me causing an accident or two while enjoying a race. PP Small

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> > Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra, > > You have created highly sophisticated > > products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your > > customer base is a group of unsophisticated morons with the attention > > span of Beavis and Butthead. I for one have spent literally countless > > hundreds of hours with NASCAR Racing 1. The feature which allowed that > > was the save game feature. For some inexplicable reason, something which > > was already in place and worked just fine, if a bit unrealisticly, was > > simply dropped from what otherwise is a marvelous second effort in > > NASCAR 2. It was not, however, marvelous enough to prevent me from > > returning the product for a refund and going back to the original NASCAR > > Racing. While the graphics and internal physics of NASCAR 2 are clearly > > superior, for me, they do not outweigh the lack of the save game > > features of the original. I have read that some people think of them as > > 'cheat features'. I myself do not use them as such, and frankly, so what > > if they are???? After purchasing the product, the customer can use it as > > he sees fit! It's his game! He can play it the way he wants too! > > As you know, to setup and test a car, qualify, and run a race > > at 100% length, is a monumental task if done seriuosly. It requires a > > bare minumum of six hours. Eight to twelve is not out of line to a real > > fanatic. Why have you taken the time to create such involved car setup > > capabilities and then for all intents and purposes, eliminated the > > ability of the user to truly make use of them?!? > > On a purely logical note, What about power failures? I make a > > habit of saving in progress races every 100 laps just to prevent any > > really annoying surprises. Granted, not overly realistic, but on the > > otherhand, it is just a game and ever since the time I was in second at > > C***te in the 600 with 17 laps to go with the skill level at 105% and > > trading paint with Marlin for the lead when the power went out > > without any previous saves going back to qualifying.....well, you get > > the picture. > > The biggest question here is why eliminate it? It was avaliable > > in the original NASCAR Racing. Microproses GRAND PRIX 2 is easily as > > complex and sophisticated (probably more so) as NASCAR 2 and it has a > > very simple and basic save feature that can be used at any time and > > picks up the race exactly as it was running when saved! So why the > > neglect of such an important and yet basic feature? Again, I can only > > assume it is because some of the powers that be at Papyrus and Sierra > > think of NASCAR Racing fans as nothing more than advanced Nintendo and > > Sega players who don't have the desire or attention span to utilize such > > a mundane or archaic and ergo, useless feature. > > So, after giving it a fair trial run, I have returned NASCAR 2 > > for a full refund to my retailer. He told me I was not the first at his > > store to do so based on the lack of this very feature. I will instantly > > repurchase it if a patch is issued correcting this incredibly glaring > > defect. In the meantime, I will be content with the original or other > > companies products. > > A disappointed customer, > > Rick West > Rick definitely has a point, but what I think he is missing is that > Sierra obviously sees nascar2 as an online racing adventure. Bear with > me on my long winded theory: instead of pricing the game at 40-50 > dollars (Nascar1) it is easily found for $30 (direct from Sierra/Best > Buy/CompUsa), but the customer is eventually going to be spending $10 > per month in online racing charges, therefore turning what was a 40-50 > dollar revenue producer (Nascar1) into a $120 per year revenue producer > (Nascar2). You the customer doesn't need a save race option when you > are racing online. Even the folks who are not completely fanatical, > like me, will try the online service because it will be fun, their will > be no AI bugs of cars going 500 mph in reverse, it will just be rumbums > like me causing an accident or two while enjoying a race. PP Small

P.P, A very good point and well taken! You are probably onto something with that line of thinking. I readily admit it had not occured to me. However, despite the validity of your thoughts, they still don't explain the basic original question.....Why drop something useful thats already in place? As GRAND PRIX 2 proves, it certainly isn't because it can't be done. Rick

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> On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 09:54:46 -0800, P P Small > >> Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra, > >> You have created highly sophisticated > >> products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your > >> customer base is a group of unsophisticated morons with the attention > >> span of Beavis and Butthead. I for one have spent literally countless > >> hundreds of hours.... > <snip excellent points made and repeated elsewhere in this thread > which I agree with> > >Rick definitely has a point, but what I think he is missing is that > >Sierra obviously sees nascar2 as an online racing adventure. Bear with > >me on my long winded theory: instead of pricing the game at 40-50 > >dollars (Nascar1) it is easily found for $30 (direct from Sierra/Best > >Buy/CompUsa), but the customer is eventually going to be spending $10 > >per month in online racing charges, therefore turning what was a 40-50 > >dollar revenue producer (Nascar1) into a $120 per year revenue producer > >(Nascar2). You the customer doesn't need a save race option when you > >are racing online. Even the folks who are not completely fanatical, > >like me, will try the online service because it will be fun, their will > >be no AI bugs of cars going 500 mph in reverse, it will just be rumbums > >like me causing an accident or two while enjoying a race. PP Small > So why don't they advertise it as an on-line game. This may be 'seen' > as an on-line game but the reviews and advertising I have seen don't > make this apparent. > Why is it as expensive, if not more so at ukp of 44.95, as other NON > internet games.. Sure I picked it up at 34.95 ukp and that's the > refund I expect when I take my copy back because of the lack of save > game feature. I too cannot afford the real time needed to take on a > 100% race - thank god for GP2 and its excellent save game feature. > Maybe someone somewhere is selling it cheaper but your argument > doesn't hold water if the recommended retail price is your 40 -50 > dollars (and the brits 70 -90 dollars!) unless you accept that > Papyrus do want to charge as much as possible without caring about > on-line costs. > I missed the comments about the lack of a save game and its only now > that I have bought the game and returned to this group that I > appreciate my folly.

Although a save game feature that PROPERLY works (NASCAR 1's didn't, and neither does GP2) would be a nice thing to have, I find it hard to believe that anyone would actually return this game solely on account of that feature not being implemented. Why not just run shorter races? I always found it difficult to re-establish a rhythm around the track, when picking up a previously saved race. And the argument about saving between sessions doesn't wash for me. If I can devise a good qualifying setup on Monday night, all I have to do is save it to disk, load it on the car and qualify on Saturday, when I have time for a race. Qualifying takes all of five minutes, and then I'm off to race; Why do people insist that they have to practice for an hour, qualify, warmup and then do a full length race, all the while developing setups, but yet be able to save the whole shebang somewhere in the middle? I know people have lives, jobs, family, etc., so do I. I simply run shorter races (long enough for pit stops, short enough to fit family schedules) during the week. When the family goes to bed on Saturday night, I rip off a full length jobber in one sitting, and feel much better about the whole thing. Hey, a save race feature would be nice, but it's not the end of the NASCAR world as we know it folks! And hey, don't even get me started about GP2- the game with the suckola frame rate, three-year old cars that all handle the same, regardless of manufacturer, canned spins and the like. Let's see...hackers have made new car sets, since you can't do that in the GP2 game; they've made new***pits, since the cartoonish one that comes in the game looks very unauthentic, they've made countless other utilities that make me wonder- what EXACTLY did microprose do? Quit yer whinin', shut up and race, go fast, turn left.

> >Your absolutly right!!! But if you and others notice Sierra-Papy don't > >want any negative feedback, just your money. If you read the rules for > >customer support the say "We won't accept negative feedback" > >My e-mail was returned (unopened) What support!!!!! > Where exactly does it say this? Well forget that stuff. What about a fix for the save game "feature".

On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 13:27:19 -0500, Buffalo >However, despite the validity of your thoughts, they still don't >explain the basic original question.....Why drop something useful thats >already in place? NASCAR 2 is a substantially different code-base than NASCAR 1. Some portions were moved intact from NASCAR 1, many parts were re-written. The save game in N1 was not easy to move over, nor did it work particularly well to begin with, and for time constraints, that feature was removed. Now that we've seen how many people liked and depended on the N1 save game feature, we will probably change our tune to suit our customers. ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

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> On Mon, 06 Jan 1997 13:27:19 -0500, Buffalo > >However, despite the validity of your thoughts, they still don't > >explain the basic original question.....Why drop something useful > >thats already in place? > NASCAR 2 is a substantially different code-base than NASCAR 1. Some > portions were moved intact from NASCAR 1, many parts were re-written. > The save game in N1 was not easy to move over, nor did it work > particularly well to begin with, and for time constraints, that > feature was removed. > Now that we've seen how many people liked and depended on the N1 save > game feature, we will probably change our tune to suit our customers. > ---Jim Sokoloff, Papyrus

Jim, Thank-you very much for your rapid, informative, and above all, honest reply. I myself have had nothing but praise for Papryus tech support since the initial release of ICR some 3+ years ago now. On the 3 or 4 occasions I have had over the years to talk with Papryus people directly, they have been nothing short of superb. They have even been more than happy to discuss some of the deeper delvings I have made past the basics. That is something VERY few software design companies will do. The one thing you didn't actually say, however, was; Is Papryus definitely planning on issuing a 'Save Game' patch in the near future for NASCAR 2? Your final paragraph certainly leads me to believe you will, but a firm yea or nay would be a real feather in your cap given the generally negative current attitude regarding N2's initial release version. As you know, I for one will rejoice at such a disclosure. P.P Small made a very astute observation regarding the probability of N2 being designed primarily for the advent of online racing, but I'm willing to bet that there are still currently more stand alone users of the product and those users require a 'Save Game' feature to make the game whorthwhile. Again, my thanks for your reply and here's to getting another one asap with a definite answer to the much asked question! Patch? Appreciativley, Rick West

On Sun, 05 Jan 1997 17:26:50 -0500, Buffalo >Open letter to Papyrus/Sierra, > You have created highly sophisticated >products in your NASCAR Racing games. Unfortunately, your assuming your ----Snippo... Geez. If you all read this news group then you all must realise why the NO-SAVE feature was not in the released version. Fair go to the poor ***s who spent hours on end getting this product out before Xmas. You all know there will be a patch out fixing this. They have tried to make everyone happy but oh know the wingers are still complaining. They need a week or two holiday to you know. With negative feed back like that I would not reply to E-Mail either as they try to explain what is happening and what will happen in the future. IT WILL BE FIXED AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Give them a break and a fair go. Jeez if it was not for men like them we would not have these sims. Look at pitsop 2 and now look at what we got. GP2, Nascar2 do have a few problems but they will be fixed so be patient. Shane Lansky Hobart,Tasmania Australia

> The one thing you didn't actually say, however, was; Is Papryus >definitely planning on issuing a 'Save Game' patch in the near future >for NASCAR 2? Your final paragraph certainly leads me to believe you >will, but a firm yea or nay would be a real feather in your cap given >the generally negative current attitude regarding N2's initial release >version. I'm looking into patching NASCAR II to add save game; I can't promise it can be done until I can accurately estimate how much work it would take to do it, pass that information back to management, and get an OK to do the work. It is a high priority item, but it is also a high risk and high cost item, so please don't shoot anybody if we're not able to deliver it. Charlie Heath Papyrus

SHANE: REPLY: Shane were not asking for heads were simply stating things how we feel. If a person is returning the game because of no save then don't you think this is the stuff Papy wants? Your really trying to talk the guy who returned it to change his mind and how he feels. Papy wants to make the majority happy and this guy is simply stating why he wasn't satisfied. Papy can take that data and figure if it's relevant or not and go from there. But both parties have the rights to do what they do and neither (with the save) is particularly wrong. Were not wishing bad things on the programmers. Q.B.M.

Papyrus should of had the save game feature in the game from day 1. And it was poor planning not to do so....And now your saying it might be too expensive to "Add it now". Sounds like good old fashion high up management BS to me. Thank you Jeff Hedges

I agree here. They really are trying to to just cover up a*** which it seems they do not have the skill to correct. Yes I know this isn't a constructive comment but I still feel the frustration even after obtaining my refund.

>I agree here. They really are trying to to just cover up a*** which >it seems they do not have the skill to correct. >Yes I know this isn't a constructive comment but I still feel the >frustration even after obtaining my refund. Once again proving, you just can't please some people. You write the game they asked for, brought it out within two weeks of its proposed release date (compare that to GP2), reply to questions in this forum (but they don't like the answers), give people their money back if they're not satisfied, and, yes, they *still* flame you. Amazing... Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?

If we want a save game feature, we want a save game feature, so there.