Serious racers steer toward high-end equipment

http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/ If you gonna race, check out this article. DW

http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/ If you gonna race, check out this article. DW

Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... ---- According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said ---- The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically claims that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive. I know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved, not try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the bets hardware to even win. "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rf6Lc.52650$[email hidden]... >http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/

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> > If you gonna race, check out this article. > > DW > > >

It's interesting so many hardcore racing gamers eschew force feedback. Maybe they are more interested in winning than having fun. I wouldn't want to actually play without force feedback. When it's implemented well, it really draws me into the game- a regular wheel just seems dead to me. Of course, I rarely play online (when I do, it's usually a rally game or Dirt Track Racing 2). When force feedback isn't implemented well- when it's cheesy vibration (like Rallisport Challenge), it's almost always a game killer. I've had a Logitech MOMO for almost 2 years (the USB version that uses the gear motor), and it's been fairly sturdy, too- and I never noticed any accuracy problems. At 100 dollars, I don't consider it cheap (for me), I pitty console gamers with their PS2 Logitech wheels. It costs the same, but is nothing but a regular Logitech Force Feedback wheel (that's what I use on my PS2), plus a few buttons. The feel is cheap- you can play with it but it doesn't feel as good to hold, and the pedals suck. Still, it does help make Gran Turismo 3 bearable (it's darn near unwinnable without it). I really would like to try a force feedback wheel one of these days that has a belt motor in it, to see how it's different.

So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with a joystick, he beat people with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels. _____ Steve "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights, do they work?" Schooner wrote:

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> Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > ---- > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > ----

In article <rf6Lc.52650$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/ > > If you gonna race, check out this article. > > DW > Why didn't you tell them that pancaking the right side against the wall would make you faster because the car prvides an aerodynamically improved head-on profile? Wouldn't that be better than spending hundreds of dollars on a new wheel?

In article <KM6Lc.35676$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > ---- > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > ---- > > The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically claims > that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive. I > know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a > joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved, not > try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the bets > hardware to even win.

I had been racing with a TM Nascar Pro analog up until April of this year. My on-track performance was (IMHO) mediocre at best. I bought an ECCI wheel and I've won three league races in four months, and when I didn't win, I was in the top 5. What's more, I stopped using driving aids (I was using steering assistance set to about 15%), and I started driving in the cockpit again. The only thing that's changed is my wheel/pedals. I thing having better equipment is a factor, and anyone that says different is pretty close to being clueless. I have never used forcefeedback, so I can't really comment about how realistic it is (or is not).

John, can't make much sense of your post. You say you got a new wheel and pedals, stopped using aids, started using cockpit view and started winning. Then next sentence you say the ONLY thing that changed was the new wheel and pedals. I'm not doubting that a good wheel will help over a sloppy, poor one but there are a lot of other factors involved as well. Things as minor is the seating angle, angel if the wheel and pedals etc can have a big a factor as the hardware itself IMHO. I've lowered my seat for example a half an inch and find things much more comfortable and thus easier to race. There are many cheap wheels that are junk, and many that are good, same as for expensive wheels but in the end a $1000+ wheel isn't what wins races. You can call people clueless if you like for believing otherwise. "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> In article <KM6Lc.35676$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > > > ---- > > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel > > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do

is > > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > > ---- > > > > The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basicallyclaims > > that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.I > > know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels usinga > > joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved,not > > try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires thebets

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> > hardware to even win. > > I had been racing with a TM Nascar Pro analog up until April of this > year. My on-track performance was (IMHO) mediocre at best. I bought an > ECCI wheel and I've won three league races in four months, and when I > didn't win, I was in the top 5. What's more, I stopped using driving > aids (I was using steering assistance set to about 15%), and I started > driving in the cockpit again. The only thing that's changed is my > wheel/pedals. > > I thing having better equipment is a factor, and anyone that says > different is pretty close to being clueless. I have never used > forcefeedback, so I can't really comment about how realistic it is (or > is not). > >

I have to agree. A fast driver with crap equipment will ALWAYS beat a standard driver with a �1000 dollar rig.

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> Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > ---- > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > ---- > > The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically

claims > that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.I > know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a > joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved,not > try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires thebets > hardware to even win. >

A big point that is being missed is that typically anyone that buys high end equipment be it for sim racing or anything else is probably dedicating themselves more to their hobby than the casual person with more off the shelf components. If your going to spend over $1000 for a wheel I'd suspect you have plans to make a lot of use of it. Because of this these same people are probably also putting a lot more time into practice and setups than the others. This IMHO is what makes them better. The better hardware will help for sure as it is nicer to use and stands up over time better, but it is not going to make a poor racer and great one. In the end its ability,practice, and dedication that makes one better, not how much you've spent, especially if it collects dust most of the time. "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with ajoystick, he beat people

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> with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels. > > _____ > > Steve > > "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights,

do they work?"

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> > > > > > Schooner wrote: > > Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > > > ---- > > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel > > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do

is > > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > > ----

There's a point were the equipment is going to be a limiting factor. A very cheap wheel that gives poor steering accuracy and has lousy pedals, to the point that it's hard to modulate them, is going to affect lap times, even in a skilled drivers hands. However there are some decent consumer grade "plastic" wheels that do have good steering accuracy and adequate pedals. Going from adequate midrange wheels to a high end wheel might feel better but it's not going to dramatically improve laptimes and certainly it's not going to instantly teach a poor driver good driving technique. The article gives the impression that there is no middle ground and you must have the most expensive gear to win. And even more outrageous, it suggests that expensive gear will make a lousy driver a winner. Ken Dan Leach wrote:

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> I have to agree. A fast driver with crap equipment will ALWAYS beat a > standard driver with a £1000 dollar rig. > >>Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... >> >>---- >>According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers >>Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel >>will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is >>slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said >>---- >> >>The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically > > claims > >>that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive. > > I > >>know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a >>joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved, > > not > >>try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the > > bets > >>hardware to even win. >> > > >

What a bunch of BS.. I remember (way back when) running in an GPL F2 League when a guy I only recall as "Jake" SMOKED us on a regular basis using a JOYSTICK!! I especially like the way it compares gamers to real drivers at the end of the ad for ECCI, Thomas, and Ball.., like one has anything to do with the other... sorry there article author, but if you think it does go hop in a car at Bondurant's. Talent is talent. Thinking you "know the right lines to take" from steering a picture on a computer screen won't do squat for you in a 2000 lb car.. except possibly make you humble. G Patricks

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>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:13:43 GMT, "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote: >http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/ > >If you gonna race, check out this article. > >DW > >

I agree that someone driving with a POS thats spiking, out of calibration, has bad POTs, etc. with do better with ANYTHING that sends a good signal, but that doesn't mean that you need a 1000 +/- wheel to get a clean signal out. Trust me, there are guys out there playing with joysticks that can beat the pants off you... Sign me "clueless".. lol

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>On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:19:12 GMT, John Simmons <[email hidden]> wrote: >In article <KM6Lc.35676$[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] says... >> Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... >> >> ---- >> According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers >> Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel >> will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is >> slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said >> ---- >> >> The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically claims >> that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive. I >> know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a >> joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved, not >> try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the bets >> hardware to even win. > >I had been racing with a TM Nascar Pro analog up until April of this >year. My on-track performance was (IMHO) mediocre at best. I bought an >ECCI wheel and I've won three league races in four months, and when I >didn't win, I was in the top 5. What's more, I stopped using driving >aids (I was using steering assistance set to about 15%), and I started >driving in the cockpit again. The only thing that's changed is my >wheel/pedals. > >I thing having better equipment is a factor, and anyone that says >different is pretty close to being clueless. I have never used >forcefeedback, so I can't really comment about how realistic it is (or >is not). >

Some of you all would bitch if they were going to hang ya with a new rope... Icer wrote: > What a bunch of BS.. I remember (way back when) running in an GPL F2 > League when a guy I only recall as "Jake" SMOKED us on a regular basis >SNIP

"Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with ajoystick, he beat people > with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels. Just imagine how bad he could have smoked them witha wheel and pedals setup. :) MadDAWG

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > > So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with a joystick, he beat people > with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels. > When I used to race GPL on my AMD K6-2 300, with very mediocre graphics and performance, with a joystick it was just a matter of toning down the settings in order to get a better frame rate. Now that I have an AMD 2500+ with a reasonable graphics engine and plenty of RAM, plus a decent Thrustmaster Ferrari wheel, and can run GPL at a pretty high end settings, yet I can't get close to my abilities with that joystick. Admittedly I don't race anywhere near as much as I used to and this has a major influence on my abilities, but this isn't the first time I've heard this needing a high-end rig being spouted about when it comes to beating the opposition. I saw an AMD rep. saying exactly the same when talking about games with 64-bit processing. Surely it's just another means to influence people into paying out for upgrades, etc.

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> _____ > > Steve > > "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights, do they work?" > > > > > > Schooner wrote: > > Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > > > ---- > > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel > > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is > > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > > ---- >

-- Pete Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before sending me an email

> There are many cheap wheels that are junk, and many that are good, same as > for expensive wheels but in the end a $1000+ wheel isn't what wins races. > You can call people clueless if you like for believing otherwise. Hardware can play a huge part, but I don't think cost is what makes or brakes the results. Its more of a comfort level. Using myself for example. I started running N2 with the old standby T2 wheel. After years of use it finaly gave out and I moved up to a Logitech Wingman FF (which I usally ran without the FF turned on). This was also around the time N4 came out. After the LWFF took a dive I replaced it with a red MOMO. I have basicly sucked in the group of friends I race with ever since. I blamed this on the higher level of physics in N4, NR2002 and NR2003 and myself not being able to get a handle on them. When Microsoft stopped making their Sidewinder wheel I saw it for $40 at CompUSA so I picked one up for my second computer that I put together for when friends come over. After trying it the Momo is now the backup, and I'm doing much better. Like John I even feel comfortable enough to run in cockpit view again. So while my $40 wheel does debunk the theory that high dollar setups make you better, it does prove (to me anyway) that hardware does play a huge part in how well a person can do. While I have no doubt that some people can kick tail with a joystick or even a keyboard a quality piece of equippment has never hurt no one. If a person is in this for the long haul spending the bucks on a TSW or other high end model can be worth t just for the wear out factor. With what I have spent on the two Logitechs, and the Microsoft wheel I could have bought a TSW and I'm sure it would still be going strong. MadDAWG

He's in the "Press", it's his job to make something out of nothing. Mitch "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KM6Lc.35676$[email hidden]...

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> Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > ---- > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > ---- > > The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically

claims > that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.I > know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a > joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved,not > try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires thebets

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> hardware to even win. > > > "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:rf6Lc.52650$[email hidden]... > > >

http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/

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> > > > If you gonna race, check out this article. > > > > DW > > > > > > > >

"Hardware can play a huge part, but I don't think cost is what makes or brakes the results. Its more of a comfort level." Agreed. Its comfort and familiarity with your complete setup. Racing is about practice and consistency. I'm not arguing that good hardware is worth the price in most cases, I just didn't care for the way the article and some of the quotes of the "elite" seemed to imply that expensive hardware is what made the difference and was the only way to win. "MadDAWG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > There are many cheap wheels that are junk, and many that are good, sameas > > for expensive wheels but in the end a $1000+ wheel isn't what winsraces.

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> > You can call people clueless if you like for believing otherwise. > > > Hardware can play a huge part, but I don't think cost is what makes or > brakes the results. Its more of a comfort level. > > Using myself for example. I started running N2 with the old standby T2 > wheel. After years of use it finaly gave out and I moved up to a Logitech > Wingman FF (which I usally ran without the FF turned on). This was also > around the time N4 came out. After the LWFF took a dive I replaced it

with

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> a red MOMO. I have basicly sucked in the group of friends I race with ever > since. I blamed this on the higher level of physics in N4, NR2002 and > NR2003 and myself not being able to get a handle on them. When Microsoft > stopped making their Sidewinder wheel I saw it for $40 at CompUSA so I > picked one up for my second computer that I put together for when friends > come over. After trying it the Momo is now the backup, and I'm doing much > better. Like John I even feel comfortable enough to run in cockpit view > again. So while my $40 wheel does debunk the theory that high dollar

setups > make you better, it does prove (to me anyway) that hardware does play ahuge > part in how well a person can do. > > While I have no doubt that some people can kick tail with a joystick oreven > a keyboard a quality piece of equippment has never hurt no one. If aperson > is in this for the long haul spending the bucks on a TSW or other high end > model can be worth t just for the wear out factor. With what I have spent > on the two Logitechs, and the Microsoft wheel I could have bought a TSWand > I'm sure it would still be going strong. > > MadDAWG > >

Funny, I dont recall Brian Grauss being very fast a few years back. Maybe his new wheel did help :-) Mitch "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rf6Lc.52650$[email hidden]... >http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/

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> > If you gonna race, check out this article. > > DW > > >

Ahh, overpriced boutique wheels that don't even have force feedback. Sure it's easier to hold a line while going over bumps when the wheel doesn't move on you. Isnt' as fun, but anything to shave that extra .1 right.. I can understand the fact that they at least use better quality potentiometers, but even the most expensive military spec pot I've bought has been under $20. Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rf6Lc.52650$[email hidden]... >http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/

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> > If you gonna race, check out this article. > > DW > > >

Perhaps we should arrange a test of wheel vs. joystick? I would be interested in the result. I used a CH Flightstick Pro for Cart,Nascar,ICR2 and had very competitive times. Went to a wheel with GPL and never looked back "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:KM6Lc.35676$[email hidden]...

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> Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > ---- > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > ---- > > The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically

claims > that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive.I > know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using a > joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved,not > try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires thebets

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> hardware to even win. > > > "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:rf6Lc.52650$[email hidden]... > > >

http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/

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> > > > If you gonna race, check out this article. > > > > DW > > > > > > > >

I don't argue that a wheel is better. I use a wheel and wouldn't consider a joystick. Again the point I was making is how the article seems to imply you need to spend $1000 to be competitive. Do people actually believe statements such as "even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig"? If by cheap they mean junk and with poor calibration and sloppy then yes, but some of the cheaper wheels such as the MS Sidewinder (never used one myself) stand up well competitively. I have nothing against the high end wheels, they are great but its how the article presents them is all. I feel it may keep many from joining the sport if they find out they need a high end wheel to even have a chance against the "elite" drivers. "Tiny Lund" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Perhaps we should arrange a test of wheel vs. joystick? I would be > interested in the result. I used a CH Flightstick Pro for Cart,Nascar,ICR2 > and had very competitive times. Went to a wheel with GPL and never looked > back > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:KM6Lc.35676$[email hidden]... > > Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > > > ---- > > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel > > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do

is

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> > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > > ---- > > > > The article is certainly not what I had hoped/expected. It basically > claims > > that unless you buy high end equipment your not going to be competitive. > I > > know drivers that have beaten those with the most expensive wheels using

a

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> > joystick. The article should have just explained the variety involved, > not > > try and make sim racing out to be an expensive sport that requires the > bets > > hardware to even win. > > > > > > "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:rf6Lc.52650$[email hidden]... > > > > > >

http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/

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> > > > > > If you gonna race, check out this article. > > > > > > DW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Hey guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a joystick wielding Wolfgang Woeger that smoked everyone's ass when GPL first came out? -- See ya in the pits, Dean I have a terrible memory. In fact my memory's so bad I can't remember how long it's been since I've forgotten anything. "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > > So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with a joystick, he beat people > with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels. > > _____ > > Steve > > "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights, do they work?" > > > > > > Schooner wrote: > > Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > > > ---- > > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel > > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do is > > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > > ---- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.721 / Virus Database: 477 - Release Date: 7/16/2004

In article <EhdLc.54023$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Hey guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a joystick wielding > Wolfgang Woeger that smoked everyone's ass when GPL first came out? > Yeah, he smoked 'most' people's ass, though I believe he used a combination of joystick to steer and pedals for acceleration and braking. He wasn't the only joystick racer, though. I'm sure there were others. I was one such GPL, joystick racer who managed to get to -52 in GPLrank a couple of years back, but desperately wanted to migrate over to using a wheel and pedals for the immersion factor. I ain't as good with the wheel, but enjoy it just as much. :) -- Pete Ives Remove ALL_STRESS before sending me an email

Good point Schooner.. dw "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oC7Lc.35687$[email hidden]... > A big point that is being missed is that typically anyone that buys highend > equipment be it for sim racing or anything else is probably dedicating > themselves more to their hobby than the casual person with more off the > shelf components. If your going to spend over $1000 for a wheel I'dsuspect > you have plans to make a lot of use of it. Because of this these same > people are probably also putting a lot more time into practice and setups > than the others. This IMHO is what makes them better. The betterhardware > will help for sure as it is nicer to use and stands up over time better,but > it is not going to make a poor racer and great one. In the end its > ability,practice, and dedication that makes one better, not how muchyou've

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> spent, especially if it collects dust most of the time. > > "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with a > joystick, he beat people > > with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels. > > > > _____ > > > > Steve > > > > "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights, > do they work?" > > > > > > > > > > > > Schooner wrote: > > > Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > > > > > ---- > > > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > > > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap

wheel

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> > > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do > is > > > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > > > ---- > > >

In article <mm7Lc.35684$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> John, can't make much sense of your post. You say you got a new wheel and > pedals, stopped using aids, started using cockpit view and started winning. > Then next sentence you say the ONLY thing that changed was the new wheel and > pedals. > > I'm not doubting that a good wheel will help over a sloppy, poor one but > there are a lot of other factors involved as well. Things as minor is the > seating angle, angel if the wheel and pedals etc can have a big a factor as > the hardware itself IMHO. I've lowered my seat for example a half an inch > and find things much more comfortable and thus easier to race. > > There are many cheap wheels that are junk, and many that are good, same as > for expensive wheels but in the end a $1000+ wheel isn't what wins races. > You can call people clueless if you like for believing otherwise. >

I'll go slower. Despite adding difficulty by not using the roof view or driving aids, my driving has improved. These are two things I could not do with the TM simply because it was a) old, and b) not what I would call well built to begin with. Calibration was a almost a joke. With the ECCI, calibrations are rock solid and the wheel is smooth as glass. The ECCI enabled me to drive better because the wheel is better.

He won a BRD wheel so we will be able to see how he compares with a decent wheel in the upcoming season. At the moment he says he is slower with a wheel but Im sure it will change. _____ Steve "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights, do they work?" Tiny Lund wrote:

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> Perhaps we should arrange a test of wheel vs. joystick? I would be > interested in the result. I used a CH Flightstick Pro for Cart,Nascar,ICR2 > and had very competitive times. Went to a wheel with GPL and never looked > back > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:KM6Lc.35676$[email hidden]...

In article <A1bLc.35739$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

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> "Hardware can play a huge part, but I don't think cost is what makes or > brakes the results. Its more of a comfort level." > > Agreed. Its comfort and familiarity with your complete setup. Racing is > about practice and consistency. > I'm not arguing that good hardware is worth the price in most cases, I just > didn't care for the way the article and some of the quotes of the "elite" > seemed to imply that expensive hardware is what made the difference and was > the only way to win. >

I certainly wouldn't call myself an "elite" driver. I simply had more disposable income at the time, so I spent it on something the majority of the sim-racing public wouldn't even consider. Sure, I could bought one of the plastic wheels again, but when you can afford top-of-the-line stuff, you buy it. It's the American way. BTW, ECCI currently has a 5-6 week backlog of orders.

"simply because it was a) old, and b) not what I would call well built to begin with. Calibration was a almost a joke. With " Well yes if any wheel has calibration issues and is not well built its going to be a problem. Kinda like saying I had an old 1960s VW bug and I bought a new Ferrari and I was faster. There is no way that the ECCI calibrates better than any other well made wheel, be it cheap or expensive. Pots are pots. Some wheels are just built like junk and wear out. Again I'm sure the ECCI is a nice setup and worth the money but any decent wheel would have been an improvement. The point is that using a $1000 is not all it takes to become a fast driver. I'm sure there are lots of high end wheels being used by some very poor drivers. Much like the most expensive golf clubs don't make you better. "Despite adding difficulty by not using the roof view or driving aids, my driving has improved." Well as to this "adding difficulty" that is a item for another discussion, as I have seen these issues argued both ways so I don't see it being a big advantage or disadvantage. I'd be willing to bet it is due to having a better wheel and in turn putting more time into racing than it is just a matter of an ECCI wheel making you faster all on its own. In the end if it makes you faster and makes you enjoy racing more that is all that matters :-) Hobbies are suppose to cost money. "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <mm7Lc.35684$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > John, can't make much sense of your post. You say you got a new wheeland > > pedals, stopped using aids, started using cockpit view and startedwinning. > > Then next sentence you say the ONLY thing that changed was the new wheeland > > pedals. > > > > I'm not doubting that a good wheel will help over a sloppy, poor one but > > there are a lot of other factors involved as well. Things as minor isthe > > seating angle, angel if the wheel and pedals etc can have a big a factoras > > the hardware itself IMHO. I've lowered my seat for example a half aninch > > and find things much more comfortable and thus easier to race. > > > > There are many cheap wheels that are junk, and many that are good, sameas > > for expensive wheels but in the end a $1000+ wheel isn't what winsraces.

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> > You can call people clueless if you like for believing otherwise. > > > > I'll go slower. Despite adding difficulty by not using the roof view or > driving aids, my driving has improved. These are two things I could not > do with the TM simply because it was a) old, and b) not what I would > call well built to begin with. Calibration was a almost a joke. With > the ECCI, calibrations are rock solid and the wheel is smooth as glass. > > The ECCI enabled me to drive better because the wheel is better.

Mike Beauchamp wrote: > Ahh, overpriced boutique wheels that don't even have force feedback. Sure > it's easier to hold a line while going over bumps when the wheel doesn't > move on you. Isnt' as fun, but anything to shave that extra .1 right.. > > There's a certain percentage of sim racers that think "I'm slower when using FF, so FF must suck". Which I find to be a very poor conclusion. Introducing FF into a sim should not make an individual quicker, but it should make the experience more realistic. Lap times and realism do not necessarily go hand in hand. I'm not saying that current FF technology is accurate, but I do believe that it's closer to the real thing than racing without.

Don Wilshe <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rf6Lc.52650$[email hidden]... >http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_towa rd_high_end_equipment/ > > If you gonna race, check out this article. > > DW Lol, more deceit, eh Don ? > > >

http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_towa rd_high_end_equipment/ Lol, more deceit, eh Don ?

Exactly.. The more immersive the better, and I do think FF helps with that. Definately. That's why I hate the boutique wheels that don't even have FF and are purely marketed towards "hotlappers" who dont' even use FF for the most part anyways. The boutique wheel companies have the right idea, but they're obviously going about it in a hugely capitalistic way and taking advantage of a lot of people. Don't get me wrong, I give full credit to these people that make these wheels, they truly are bulletproof wheels... something I definately wouldnt' be able to make. Mike http://mikebeauchamp.com "Internet User" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Mike Beauchamp wrote: > > Ahh, overpriced boutique wheels that don't even have force feedback.Sure

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> > it's easier to hold a line while going over bumps when the wheel doesn't > > move on you. Isnt' as fun, but anything to shave that extra .1 right.. > > > > > > There's a certain percentage of sim racers that think "I'm slower when > using FF, so FF must suck". Which I find to be a very poor conclusion. > Introducing FF into a sim should not make an individual quicker, but > it should make the experience more realistic. Lap times and realism do > not necessarily go hand in hand. I'm not saying that current FF > technology is accurate, but I do believe that it's closer to the real > thing than racing without.

"Tiny Lund" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Perhaps we should arrange a test of wheel vs. joystick? I would be > interested in the result. I used a CH Flightstick Pro for Cart,Nascar,ICR2 > and had very competitive times. Went to a wheel with GPL and never looked > back Hey -- another CH joystick user! I've been using my CH Products stick happily for 5 years now (after breaking at least a half dozen sticks built by other companies in the year prior to that purchase). I've always used a joystick for GPL and other driving sims/games simply out of habit (it's the only type of controller I already owned when I bought my first driving title). I've finally purchased a wheel and pedals, but I'm so accustomed to years of driving with the joystick that I still can't come close to my joystick times with the wheel. itazura

In article <KngLc.35882$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > "simply because it was a) old, and b) not what I would > call well built to begin with. Calibration was a almost a joke. With " > > Well yes if any wheel has calibration issues and is not well built its going > to be a problem. Kinda like saying I had an old 1960s VW bug and I bought a > new Ferrari and I was faster. So you agree then. ALL of the plastic analog wheels have calibration problems. That's what I was using. > There is no way that the ECCI calibrates better than any other well made > wheel, be it cheap or expensive. Pots are pots. I never once said that it calibrated any better than any wheel other than the one I was using before. > Some wheels are just built > like junk and wear out. Again I'm sure the ECCI is a nice setup and worth > the money but any decent wheel would have been an improvement. But the bad wheel/decent wheel line is different for everyone. For me, bad wheel is what I was using, and decent wheel is ECCI. I'm not really concerned with where anyone else's lne is at the moment. > The point is > that using a $1000 is not all it takes to become a fast driver. I'm sure > there are lots of high end wheels being used by some very poor drivers. I never claimed that I was fast, but I will proclaim that I'm much more consistent (warping notwithstanding), and therefore a better driver overall because my equipment is better. > Much like the most expensive golf clubs don't make you better. I hate that game, so the reference was wasted. > "Despite adding difficulty by not using the roof view or driving aids, my > driving has improved." > Well as to this "adding difficulty" that is a item for another discussion, > as I have seen these issues argued both ways so I don't see it being a big > advantage or disadvantage. I was just mentioning the fact. For what it's worth, I still ride the roof on road courses because current video card technology doesn't provide the depth of field I needto do roadies in the ccockpit. > I'd be willing to bet it is due to having a better wheel and in turn putting > more time into racing than it is just a matter of an ECCI wheel making you > faster all on its own. Well, now there you're just flat out wrong. I won the first race I joined with the ECCI at the beginning of May (onine, daytona, everyone finished on the lead lap and the pack of 12 cars never once thinned out), and I've won two league races (one was cup with fixed setup, the other was aero88 with open setup) since the middle of June. The amount of racing I do has not noticeably increased except for trying to tune a decent setup for running in the aero league, so your assumption that I'm racing more doesn't hold up. > In the end if it makes you faster and makes you enjoy racing more that is > all that matters :-) Hobbies are suppose to cost money. I think someone else said it. It's a mental thing - after spending $1200 (shipped), I better damn well get better at it the hobby. BTW, my dad is a complete noob where racing is concerned, and even HE turns better laps with the ECCI than he does with his plastic fantastic.

What you say is very true, the best wheel in the world won't make you better if you don't devote the time to practice. "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:oC7Lc.35687$[email hidden]... > A big point that is being missed is that typically anyone that buys highend > equipment be it for sim racing or anything else is probably dedicating > themselves more to their hobby than the casual person with more off the > shelf components. If your going to spend over $1000 for a wheel I'dsuspect > you have plans to make a lot of use of it. Because of this these same > people are probably also putting a lot more time into practice and setups > than the others. This IMHO is what makes them better. The betterhardware > will help for sure as it is nicer to use and stands up over time better,but > it is not going to make a poor racer and great one. In the end its > ability,practice, and dedication that makes one better, not how muchyou've

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> spent, especially if it collects dust most of the time. > > "Edgecrusher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with a > joystick, he beat people > > with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid damped wheels. > > > > _____ > > > > Steve > > > > "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the headlights, > do they work?" > > > > > > > > > > > > Schooner wrote: > > > Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > > > > > > ---- > > > According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > > > Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap

wheel > > > will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can do > is > > > slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > > > ---- > >

I started out on Nascar Racing with a joypad. I paid $3 for it at Comp USA. I was very competative with it. It was the only pad I could find that was smooth enough to race with. I forget what it was called, but they discontinued it. I pieced them together for about 6 mos until I decided I couldn't deal with it any longer. I bought a Thrustmaster GP, I think it was called and I was worse than with the joypad. I went right to an ECCI CDS2 and right away I started getting faster and better at all the tracks. I've owned many others over the years and with the right amount of practice you can win with any of them, but the ECCI has always been the smoothest. "Icer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> What a bunch of BS.. I remember (way back when) running in an GPL F2 > League when a guy I only recall as "Jake" SMOKED us on a regular basis > using a JOYSTICK!! I especially like the way it compares gamers to > real drivers at the end of the ad for ECCI, Thomas, and Ball.., like > one has anything to do with the other... sorry there article author, > but if you think it does go hop in a car at Bondurant's. Talent is > talent. Thinking you "know the right lines to take" from steering a > picture on a computer screen won't do squat for you in a 2000 lb car.. > except possibly make you humble. > > G Patricks > > >On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:13:43 GMT, "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]>

wrote: > >http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/

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> > > >If you gonna race, check out this article. > > > >DW > > > > >

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> > > There is no way that the ECCI calibrates better than any other well made > > wheel, be it cheap or expensive. Pots are pots. > > I never once said that it calibrated any better than any wheel other > than the one I was using before. >

Then I'll say it for you. The Pots in the ECCI are military grade and hold up better and longer than most others.

"So you agree then. ALL of the plastic analog wheels have calibration problems. That's what I was using. " Sigh, well to each his own John. I'm not trying to argue with you. I have had no issues at all with my Red Logitech Momo wheel calibrating. I guess I just got lucky with my plastic junk. Granted I have totally rebuilt the pedals to make them more solid and reliable as that was a weak point with then over time. Again I don't doubt the ECCI wheel is very nice, but again my point is that the high end wheels is not going to make any driver great, that takes practice and consistency, and good working reliable hardware, no matter the cost. Good luck with your wheel and your racing. Sounds like a great setup for sure. "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In article <KngLc.35882$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] says... > > "simply because it was a) old, and b) not what I would > > call well built to begin with. Calibration was a almost a joke. With " > > > > Well yes if any wheel has calibration issues and is not well built itsgoing > > to be a problem. Kinda like saying I had an old 1960s VW bug and Ibought a

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> > new Ferrari and I was faster. > > So you agree then. ALL of the plastic analog wheels have calibration > problems. That's what I was using. > > > There is no way that the ECCI calibrates better than any other well made > > wheel, be it cheap or expensive. Pots are pots. > > I never once said that it calibrated any better than any wheel other > than the one I was using before. > > > Some wheels are just built > > like junk and wear out. Again I'm sure the ECCI is a nice setup and

worth

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> > the money but any decent wheel would have been an improvement. > > But the bad wheel/decent wheel line is different for everyone. For me, > bad wheel is what I was using, and decent wheel is ECCI. I'm not really > concerned with where anyone else's lne is at the moment. > > > The point is > > that using a $1000 is not all it takes to become a fast driver. I'm

sure

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> > there are lots of high end wheels being used by some very poor drivers. > > I never claimed that I was fast, but I will proclaim that I'm much more > consistent (warping notwithstanding), and therefore a better driver > overall because my equipment is better. > > > Much like the most expensive golf clubs don't make you better. > > I hate that game, so the reference was wasted. > > > "Despite adding difficulty by not using the roof view or driving aids,

my > > driving has improved." > > Well as to this "adding difficulty" that is a item for anotherdiscussion, > > as I have seen these issues argued both ways so I don't see it being abig

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> > advantage or disadvantage. > > I was just mentioning the fact. For what it's worth, I still ride the > roof on road courses because current video card technology doesn't > provide the depth of field I needto do roadies in the ccockpit. > > > I'd be willing to bet it is due to having a better wheel and in turn

putting > > more time into racing than it is just a matter of an ECCI wheel makingyou

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> > faster all on its own. > > Well, now there you're just flat out wrong. I won the first race I > joined with the ECCI at the beginning of May (onine, daytona, everyone > finished on the lead lap and the pack of 12 cars never once thinned > out), and I've won two league races (one was cup with fixed setup, the > other was aero88 with open setup) since the middle of June. The amount > of racing I do has not noticeably increased except for trying to tune a > decent setup for running in the aero league, so your assumption that I'm > racing more doesn't hold up. > > > In the end if it makes you faster and makes you enjoy racing more that

is

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> > all that matters :-) Hobbies are suppose to cost money. > > I think someone else said it. It's a mental thing - after spending $1200 > (shipped), I better damn well get better at it the hobby. > > BTW, my dad is a complete noob where racing is concerned, and even HE > turns better laps with the ECCI than he does with his plastic > fantastic. > >

I have a TSW 2 Stock , Got for $125.00 and I thought that it was a great deal . I have used Red Moms and Thrustmasters over the years and thought that the TSW would help me to go much faster in Nascar Racing 2003 .. WRONG ! The TSW is not any faster than any of the wheels I have had . It is built better and has very good brake and gas peddles . But in truth the best wheel I have found for speed and accuracy is the Thrustmaster Pro Digital 2 . I use the TSW peddles and the thrustmaster together . As for the momo I loved it , But its silly angle kills my back . Force Feedback helps with car setup . I'm very happy that I did not but the TSW new . I would have been very bummed to find out that they are not really any better than a Thrustcrapper or a Microsoft wheel . As for ECCI , I would love to try one , But there aint know way im gunna spend that kinda money before I try it .

"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote here on 20 Jul 2004: > http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_s > teer_toward_high_end_equipment/ > > If you gonna race, check out this article. > > DW Not that I'm any sort of serious racer, but I do agree with some of the other people here in that I drive GPL for fun, and I don't really care if they're not totally realistic. How many of us are likely to drive a real 1967 F1 car, after all? And I know the article doesn't actually say this, but if I have to spend a thousand quid just to be vaguely competitive, then that's not my idea of fun. I've never been a great driver and never will. Besides, hotlapping might be fun but... I was very happy to get slightly negative on GPLRank, but even happier to win the occasional race at Spa simply by not smashing into everyone else on the first lap. And finally, the ol' Michael Schumacher analogy. He won races and championships with equipment that wasn't the best, through sheer driving ability, but now he does have the best car as well he's close to unstoppable. Most people (not all, but most) find the first achievement the more interesting. -- Above address *is* valid. Support the world's oldest motorsport venue! http://www.shelsley-walsh.co.uk/future.html

"even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig." What else would you expect the seller of high-end expensive equipment to say??

I adjusted the angle of mine by mounting an wooden wedge under the front of the wheel. it is attached directly so still easy to move out of the way if needed. "Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I have a TSW 2 Stock , Got for $125.00 and I thought that it was a > great deal . I have used Red Moms and Thrustmasters over the years and > thought that the TSW would help me to go much faster in Nascar Racing > 2003 .. WRONG ! The TSW is not any faster than any of the wheels I > have had . It is built better and has very good brake and gas peddles > . But in truth the best wheel I have found for speed and accuracy is > the Thrustmaster Pro Digital 2 . I use the TSW peddles and the > thrustmaster together . As for the momo I loved it , But its silly > angle kills my back . Force Feedback helps with car setup . I'm very > happy that I did not but the TSW new . I would have been very bummed > to find out that they are not really any better than a Thrustcrapper > or a Microsoft wheel . As for ECCI , I would love to try one , But > there aint know way im gunna spend that kinda money before I try it .

Me too Schooner....... I attached a two-piece plywood wedge to my racing rig to adjust the angle to something more realistic. Much better IMHO :) <T-Dog> ==--== "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zJBLc.36436$[email hidden]... > I adjusted the angle of mine by mounting an wooden wedge under the frontof > the wheel. it is attached directly so still easy to move out of the wayif

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> needed. > > "Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > I have a TSW 2 Stock , Got for $125.00 and I thought that it was a > > great deal . I have used Red Moms and Thrustmasters over the years and > > thought that the TSW would help me to go much faster in Nascar Racing > > 2003 .. WRONG ! The TSW is not any faster than any of the wheels I > > have had . It is built better and has very good brake and gas peddles > > . But in truth the best wheel I have found for speed and accuracy is > > the Thrustmaster Pro Digital 2 . I use the TSW peddles and the > > thrustmaster together . As for the momo I loved it , But its silly > > angle kills my back . Force Feedback helps with car setup . I'm very > > happy that I did not but the TSW new . I would have been very bummed > > to find out that they are not really any better than a Thrustcrapper > > or a Microsoft wheel . As for ECCI , I would love to try one , But > > there aint know way im gunna spend that kinda money before I try it . > >

Yes it makes a big difference. Some minor tweaks like this to change the angle of your wheel, pedals, seat can go a long way in improving your racing. It all comes down to being comfortable and in the right position. I also find it important to have everything in the exact same position and distances each time in the case where your not in a fixed frame setup. Racing at a desk with a chair on wheels and pedals just sitting flat on the floor is not ideal for racing no matter what wheel and pedals you have :-) "<MM>" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GrCLc.78430$ek5.77747@pd7tw2no... > > Me too Schooner....... > > I attached a two-piece plywood wedge to my racing rig to adjust the angleto

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> something more realistic. Much better IMHO :) > > <T-Dog> > ==--== > > > "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:zJBLc.36436$[email hidden]... > > I adjusted the angle of mine by mounting an wooden wedge under the front > of > > the wheel. it is attached directly so still easy to move out of the way > if > > needed. > > > > "Joe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > I have a TSW 2 Stock , Got for $125.00 and I thought that it was a > > > great deal . I have used Red Moms and Thrustmasters over the years and > > > thought that the TSW would help me to go much faster in Nascar Racing > > > 2003 .. WRONG ! The TSW is not any faster than any of the wheels I > > > have had . It is built better and has very good brake and gas peddles > > > . But in truth the best wheel I have found for speed and accuracy is > > > the Thrustmaster Pro Digital 2 . I use the TSW peddles and the > > > thrustmaster together . As for the momo I loved it , But its silly > > > angle kills my back . Force Feedback helps with car setup . I'm very > > > happy that I did not but the TSW new . I would have been very bummed > > > to find out that they are not really any better than a Thrustcrapper > > > or a Microsoft wheel . As for ECCI , I would love to try one , But > > > there aint know way im gunna spend that kinda money before I try it . > > > > > > >

>"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> >wrote <snip bad-journalism> What about flattening the sides of your car during qualifying? Why didn't you talk about that, it made you famous. Don't say after all these years you were joking. Nice try. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

"Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:gzCLc.36454$[email hidden]:

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> Yes it makes a big difference. Some minor tweaks like this to change > the angle of your wheel, pedals, seat can go a long way in improving > your racing. It all comes down to being comfortable and in the right > position. I also find it important to have everything in the exact same > position and distances each time in the case where your not in a fixed > frame setup. Racing at a desk with a chair on wheels and pedals just > sitting flat on the floor is not ideal for racing no matter what wheel > and pedals you have :-)

From my experience, attaching everything (wheel, pedal, chair etc) rigidly to the common frames give the bigger advantage in precision than upgrading the wheel (unless the wheel is real junk). Alex.

Give us two identical cars (GPL1965) on two identical systems and a 15-lap race around the Nordschliefe, Don, and I'll pit me and one of my trusty Gravis Analogue Pro j/stick's against you and your mega-dollar wheel/pedal setup any time. Even when I had my Advantage 1 wheel/pedal, I could still turn faster laps with the j/s. Bruce. "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:rf6Lc.52650$[email hidden]... >http://www.boston.com/ae/games/articles/2004/07/19/serious_racers_steer_toward_high_end_equipment/ > > If you gonna race, check out this article.

"<MM>" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GrCLc.78430$ek5.77747@pd7tw2no... > > Me too Schooner....... > > I attached a two-piece plywood wedge to my racing rig to adjust the angleto > something more realistic. Much better IMHO :) > > <T-Dog> > ==--== this is 2 funny. Some people are defending there plastic wheels and others are claiming great success by attaching wood to make them faster. hehe DW

Don Wilshe <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HFVLc.7915$[email hidden]...

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> > "<MM>" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GrCLc.78430$ek5.77747@pd7tw2no... > > > > Me too Schooner....... > > > > I attached a two-piece plywood wedge to my racing rig to adjust the

angle

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> to > > something more realistic. Much better IMHO :) > > > > <T-Dog> > > ==--== > > > this is 2 funny. Some people are defending there plastic wheels and

others > are claiming > great success by attaching wood to make them faster. hehe > > DW And some people play the games with hacks.

Never said it was to make me faster directly, but to make the angle more comfortable for using. No one is defending anything, their stating their views on the subject, not making false quotes to newspapers like some ;-) "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HFVLc.7915$[email hidden]...

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> > "<MM>" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GrCLc.78430$ek5.77747@pd7tw2no... > > > > Me too Schooner....... > > > > I attached a two-piece plywood wedge to my racing rig to adjust the

angle

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> to > > something more realistic. Much better IMHO :) > > > > <T-Dog> > > ==--== > > > this is 2 funny. Some people are defending there plastic wheels and

others

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> are claiming > great success by attaching wood to make them faster. hehe > > DW > > >

Exactly. Comfort in driving is key . I agree with you. DW "Schooner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:naWLc.36764$[email hidden]... > Never said it was to make me faster directly, but to make the angle more > comfortable for using. > No one is defending anything, their stating their views on the subject,not > making false quotes to newspapers like some ;-)

>"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote > this is 2 funny. Some people are defending there plastic wheels andothers > are claiming > great success by attaching wood to make them faster. hehe Wood, plastic, metal... in the end who cares really? Stop it with your used-car salesman attitude. -- -- Fran�ois M�nard <ymenard> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Don Wilshe wrote: > this is 2 funny. Some people are defending there plastic wheels and others > are claiming > great success by attaching wood to make them faster. hehe > > DW > Don, don't see your response to the post a couple days ago asking about the precision of high end wheels. Thought you'd be the first one to jump in to show how great you gear really is. Ken

First off Don... I don't see anyone "defending" anything. Secondly, I have both a Momo Racing and a TSW so I am not even talking about comparisons other than the TSW worked fine in my racing rig with a __FLAT__ mount and that I added a wooden wedge to change the angle (and comfort) of the Momo. That was it. I said nothing about either one being faster. Or especially that adding a wooden wedge to adjust the angle made anything "faster" - just more comfortable. F.Y.I. Cheers <ThunderDog> ==--== "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HFVLc.7915$[email hidden]...

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> > "<MM>" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:GrCLc.78430$ek5.77747@pd7tw2no... > > > > Me too Schooner....... > > > > I attached a two-piece plywood wedge to my racing rig to adjust the

angle

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> to > > something more realistic. Much better IMHO :) > > > > <T-Dog> > > ==--== > > > this is 2 funny. Some people are defending there plastic wheels and

others

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> are claiming > great success by attaching wood to make them faster. hehe > > DW > > >

Mike Koon was the Zen Master of Joysick driving... Edgecrusher wrote:

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> > So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with > a joystick, he beat people with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid > damped wheels. > > _____ > > Steve > > "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the > headlights, do they work?" > > > > > > Schooner wrote: > >> Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... >> >> ---- >> According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers >> Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap wheel >> will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can >> do is >> slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said >> ---- >

-- Ric Seyler Online Racing: RicSeyler GPL Handicap 6.35 [email hidden] http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler remove �SPAM- from email address -------------------------------------- "Homer no function beer well without." - H.J. Simpson

ymenard wrote:

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>>"Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote >>this is 2 funny. Some people are defending there plastic wheels and >> >> >others > > >>are claiming >>great success by attaching wood to make them faster. hehe >> >> > > > >Wood, plastic, metal... in the end who cares really? Stop it with your >used-car salesman attitude. >

Ummmmm that's Emu Ranching Investment Counselor ;-)

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> > > > > > > >

-- Ric Seyler Online Racing: RicSeyler GPL Handicap 6.35 [email hidden] http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler remove -SPAM- from email address -------------------------------------- "Homer no function beer well without." - H.J. Simpson

Ken: Im not selling any gear. I would say the same about any high end product. ECCI, TSW, ETC. all make ELITE driving systems. I have owned over 20 wheels and its all great. Joysticks work fine for the obvious reasons. Brad Davies or CanesFan has always used a Joystick and drives by the seat of his pants.. He sits on the joystick.. hehe dw "Ken MacKay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fg6Mc.81708$[email hidden]... > Don Wilshe wrote: > > > this is 2 funny. Some people are defending there plastic wheels andothers

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> > are claiming > > great success by attaching wood to make them faster. hehe > > > > DW > > > > Don, don't see your response to the post a couple days ago asking about

the > precision of high end wheels. Thought you'd be the first one to jump in toshow > how great you gear really is. > > Ken

Mike Koon does more with less than any of us. DW "RicSeyler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EFbMc.27575$[email hidden]...

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> Mike Koon was the Zen Master of Joysick driving... > > Edgecrusher wrote: > > > > > So true, our league with a lot of great drivers was won by a guy with > > a joystick, he beat people with BRDs, TSWs and one of those fluid > > damped wheels. > > > > _____ > > > > Steve > > > > "If you are travelling at the speed of light and turn on the > > headlights, do they work?" > > > > > > > > > > > > Schooner wrote: > > > >> Too bad the quote you gave is BS.... > >> > >> ---- > >> According to Don Wilshe, president of the International Video Gamers > >> Association in Cape Coral, Fla., even a skilled racer with a cheap

wheel

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> >> will probably lose when up against a high-quality rig. "What it can > >> do is > >> slow you down as much as half a second per lap," Wilshe said > >> ---- > > > > -- > Ric Seyler > Online Racing: RicSeyler > GPL Handicap 6.35 > [email hidden] > http://www.pcola.gulf.net/~ricseyler > remove �SPAM- from email address > -------------------------------------- > "Homer no function beer well without." > - H.J. Simpson >

"Dean Purdy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:EhdLc.54023$[email hidden]... > Hey guys, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it a joystick wielding > Wolfgang Woeger that smoked everyone's ass when GPL first came out? > Yes, and I was one of those he smoked. But in my defence, I did drive inside the cockpit whereas he drove from F10. Someone he didn't smoke and was often smoked by, Ian Lake, had a home made contraption that was akin to a ships wheel. Ian was highly motivated and greatly skilled from GP2. It's all about motivation and time put in. A head start from any previous experience is always nice too. :) Whatever the controller, it simply needs to be functioning correctly. The standard driving practice of using power under braking has pretty much killed off joystick use though as was the case with Wolfgang.

"John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > I had been racing with a TM Nascar Pro analog up until April of this > year. My on-track performance was (IMHO) mediocre at best. I bought an > ECCI wheel and I've won three league races in four months, and when I > didn't win, I was in the top 5. What's more, I stopped using driving > aids (I was using steering assistance set to about 15%), and I started > driving in the cockpit again. The only thing that's changed is my > wheel/pedals. >

A lot of this may be due to the ECCI simply being new. I have used a $400 (purchased in 1998) wheel up until recently. Now I use a black MOMO ($165). The accuracy thru the pedals of the MOMO was immediately obvious compared to the old A1 pedals. The A1 (local aussie product) is extremely sturdy in construction. However, it used 1 MegaOhm pots moving thru just 10% of their arc and with the pedals being heavily sprung and thus notchy in their operation, the precision of these pedals is comparitively pathetic.

"Mike Beauchamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Ahh, overpriced boutique wheels that don't even have force feedback. Sure > it's easier to hold a line while going over bumps when the wheel doesn't > move on you. Isnt' as fun, but anything to shave that extra .1 right.. > Yep, I find it laughable that these upmarket wheels don't do FF. The "FF technology isn't up to par" line is a load of crap imo. Papy (RIP) said that for a while and then started doing it about 5 years ago! Joke.

"Bruce Kennewell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:40ff2573$[email hidden]...

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> Give us two identical cars (GPL1965) on two identical systems and a 15-lap > race around the Nordschliefe, Don, and I'll pit me and one of my trusty > Gravis Analogue Pro j/stick's against you and your mega-dollar wheel/pedal > setup any time. > > Even when I had my Advantage 1 wheel/pedal, I could still turn faster laps > with the j/s. >

A1's stink! :) (See elsewhere in this thread) Mine did anyway, maybe one of their first editions. Luke McLean uses one though so................

Not sure what you mean by ECCI being new but ECCI has been around for over a decade. I have used an ECCI system for about that amount of time. I've had 4 different ECCI systems over that period of time and have never had to replace the pots because they were bad or worn out. I won a couple races with them too. "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4103ab42$[email hidden]...

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> > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > I had been racing with a TM Nascar Pro analog up until April of this > > year. My on-track performance was (IMHO) mediocre at best. I bought an > > ECCI wheel and I've won three league races in four months, and when I > > didn't win, I was in the top 5. What's more, I stopped using driving > > aids (I was using steering assistance set to about 15%), and I started > > driving in the cockpit again. The only thing that's changed is my > > wheel/pedals. > > > > A lot of this may be due to the ECCI simply being new. I have used a > $400 (purchased in 1998) wheel up until recently. Now I use a black MOMO > ($165). The accuracy thru the pedals of the MOMO was immediately obvious > compared to the old A1 pedals. The A1 (local aussie product) is extremely > sturdy in construction. However, it used 1 MegaOhm pots moving thru just

10% > of their arc and with the pedals being heavily sprung and thus notchy in > their operation, the precision of these pedals is comparitively pathetic. > >

In article <UCOMc.12516$[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says... > Not sure what you mean by ECCI being new but ECCI has been around for over a > decade. I have used an ECCI system for about that amount of time. I've had 4 > different ECCI systems over that period of time and have never had to > replace the pots because they were bad or worn out. I won a couple races > with them too. > I think he meant new in relation to my using one. I think my driving has improved because the ECCI is better than what I was using before. I'm not sayng that anything lower priced would not have resulted in a simular increase in apparent driving ability, but I am saying that I think moving to better equipment is a benefit. I have been able to make my setups a little looser and am now able to keep up with the guys that are driving fast. The end result (so far) is that I am in the lead in the series I'm racing in right now, and I owe it all to the ECCI controller. I agree with Wilshe that using better equipment is a "good thing"(tm), but getting the most expensive controllers available simply isn't an option for most people, and generally, it won't guarantee that you'll instantly be impossible to beat, or even improve in terms of driving skill. Everyone's different, so blanket statements like "you need to buy the most expensive", or "you'll be faster with a joystick" is just plain buillshit.

Kids Mike.. hehe dw you ole fart "Michael Grandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:UCOMc.12516$[email hidden]... > Not sure what you mean by ECCI being new but ECCI has been around for overa > decade. I have used an ECCI system for about that amount of time. I've had4

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> different ECCI systems over that period of time and have never had to > replace the pots because they were bad or worn out. I won a couple races > with them too. > > > "Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4103ab42$[email hidden]... > > > > "John Simmons" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > I had been racing with a TM Nascar Pro analog up until April of this > > > year. My on-track performance was (IMHO) mediocre at best. I bought

an

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> > > ECCI wheel and I've won three league races in four months, and when I > > > didn't win, I was in the top 5. What's more, I stopped using driving > > > aids (I was using steering assistance set to about 15%), and I started > > > driving in the cockpit again. The only thing that's changed is my > > > wheel/pedals. > > > > > > > A lot of this may be due to the ECCI simply being new. I have used a > > $400 (purchased in 1998) wheel up until recently. Now I use a black MOMO > > ($165). The accuracy thru the pedals of the MOMO was immediately obvious > > compared to the old A1 pedals. The A1 (local aussie product) is

extremely > > sturdy in construction. However, it used 1 MegaOhm pots moving thru just > 10% > > of their arc and with the pedals being heavily sprung and thus notchy in > > their operation, the precision of these pedals is comparitivelypathetic. > > > > > > >

Don Wilshe wrote: > Ken: > > Im not selling any gear. I would say the same about any high end product. > ECCI, TSW, ETC. all > make ELITE driving systems. I have owned over 20 wheels and its all great. Ok then, how about checking out the range and precision of the ones you still own... Ken

The cheap wheels have no range. the ECCI i own is a HIGH RES USB and has 1024 resolution for steering calibration.. dw All the wheels i had i gave to poor sim drivers. "Ken MacKay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wP5Nc.82946$[email hidden]... > Don Wilshe wrote: > > Ken: > > > > Im not selling any gear. I would say the same about any high endproduct. > > ECCI, TSW, ETC. all > > make ELITE driving systems. I have owned over 20 wheels and its allgreat. > > Ok then, how about checking out the range and precision of the ones youstill own... > > Ken >

"The cheap wheels have no range." Ahh yes, blanket statements, the best kind. "All them other stuff sucks, mines is better." "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:iMeNc.171$[email hidden]...

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> The cheap wheels have no range. the ECCI i own is a HIGH RES USB and has > 1024 resolution for > steering calibration.. > > dw > > All the wheels i had i gave to poor sim drivers. > > > > "Ken MacKay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:wP5Nc.82946$[email hidden]... > > Don Wilshe wrote: > > > Ken: > > > > > > Im not selling any gear. I would say the same about any high end > product. > > > ECCI, TSW, ETC. all > > > make ELITE driving systems. I have owned over 20 wheels and its all > great. > > > > Ok then, how about checking out the range and precision of the ones you > still own... > > > > Ken > > > >

Don Wilshe wrote: > The cheap wheels have no range. the ECCI i own is a HIGH RES USB and has > 1024 resolution for > steering calibration.. > > dw > Thanks for the info Don. You make it sound as though the 1024 points of resolution is an option. So what does the ECCI with "normal" USB give for resolution? Don't tell me people are paying for "high-end" wheels that have less than 1024 points of resolution?! So the Act labs force RS with a serial cart or the older USB cart is a high end wheel as both have 1024 resolution? And correct me if I'm wrong but don't the Momo wheels, the MSFF, and old LWFF wheels also have the same resolution? I must say I'm a bit disappointed as my old homebuilt wheel gives just over 2000 points of resolution on the gameport. Guess I'll have to wait to become a "serious racer" when the ULTRA HI RES USB is available. ;-) Ken

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 21:33:02 GMT, "Don Wilshe" <[email hidden]> wrote: >The cheap wheels have no range. the ECCI i own is a HIGH RES USB and has >1024 resolution for >steering calibration.. That isn't that hard, even with a 7 bit controller.....the question is, is that 1024 resolution with steps of 1, or more? Is the ECCI USB controller a 10 bit one? And the last question, is the ECCI still using analog potentie meters, or is the sensor digital? Cheers! Remco

good info.. stock ECCI on my system was 64.. could be the operating system as well determines this dw "Ken MacKay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2orNc.83398$[email hidden]...

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> Don Wilshe wrote: > > > The cheap wheels have no range. the ECCI i own is a HIGH RES USB and has > > 1024 resolution for > > steering calibration.. > > > > dw > > > Thanks for the info Don. > > You make it sound as though the 1024 points of resolution is an option. So

what > does the ECCI with "normal" USB give for resolution? Don't tell me peopleare > paying for "high-end" wheels that have less than 1024 points ofresolution?! > > So the Act labs force RS with a serial cart or the older USB cart is ahigh end > wheel as both have 1024 resolution? And correct me if I'm wrong but don'tthe > Momo wheels, the MSFF, and old LWFF wheels also have the same resolution?I must > say I'm a bit disappointed as my old homebuilt wheel gives just over 2000points > of resolution on the gameport. Guess I'll have to wait to become a"serious > racer" when the ULTRA HI RES USB is available. ;-) > > Ken >

Ken MacKay <[email hidden]> wrote in news:2orNc.83398$[email hidden]:

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> Don Wilshe wrote: > >> The cheap wheels have no range. the ECCI i own is a HIGH RES USB and >> has 1024 resolution for >> steering calibration.. >> >> dw >> > Thanks for the info Don. > > You make it sound as though the 1024 points of resolution is an option. > So what does the ECCI with "normal" USB give for resolution? Don't tell > me people are paying for "high-end" wheels that have less than 1024 > points of resolution?! > > So the Act labs force RS with a serial cart or the older USB cart is a > high end wheel as both have 1024 resolution? And correct me if I'm > wrong but don't the Momo wheels, the MSFF, and old LWFF wheels also > have the same resolution? I must say I'm a bit disappointed as my old > homebuilt wheel gives just over 2000 points of resolution on the > gameport. Guess I'll have to wait to become a "serious racer" when the > ULTRA HI RES USB is available. ;-) > > Ken

I can confirm that MSFF and Thrustmaster Ferrari FF both give 1024 steering resolution. But the real precision is much more than the resolution. It requires wheel mechanism to operate precisely passing the movement of the steering wheel itself to the sensors/pots and for them to translate it accurately into a signal. More than that, all this high precision will be lost if the wheel is not attached rigidly to the dest (and if the desk is not rigidly attached to the seat/chair). For the better attachment of the driver to the seat the driver should probably wear seat belts ;) Alex.

alexti wrote: > > I can confirm that MSFF and Thrustmaster Ferrari FF both give 1024 steering > resolution. Kind of makes you wonder what the 20 wheels were that Don gave away that didn't include a MSFF, Thustmaster Ferrari, ForceRS, LWFF or a Momo. ;-) > But the real precision is much more than the resolution. It > requires wheel mechanism to operate precisely passing the movement of the > steering wheel itself to the sensors/pots and for them to translate it > accurately into a signal. More than that, all this high precision will be > lost if the wheel is not attached rigidly to the dest (and if the desk is > not rigidly attached to the seat/chair). Agreed, no point having 1024 point output if there is a lot of play in the mechanism. That said, it'd have to be fairly bad before it would start to affect driving performance, IMHO. It would however make a big difference in the feel. For example both the ForceRS and my homebuilt wheel have a direct connection of the pot to the steering shaft... move either wheel a small fraction of a degree back and forth and it registers on the screen. It is just as easy to hit an apex with either wheel and lap times are about the same. However I prefer to use the homebuilt one because it has a more solid feel (wood and steel vs plastic housing), and there is less play (bearings versus a plastic bushing on the steering shaft). I have no doubt that an ECCI wheel would feel nicer and last longer that one of the wheels mentioned above. What I wanted to point out is that some consumer grade wheels can offer good enough precision (i.e. as good and possibly even better than a high end wheel) for a driver to be competitive. Goes back to the part of the article that some of us have problems with... the BS about needing a high end wheel to go fast. Ken

Theres no doubt that any of those wheels can be competative in the right hands. I think the difference is best compared to a choice between a Volkswagon and a Ferrari. Some would rather spend the money and drive the best. Nothing wrong with a Volkswagon, it will get you where you want to go most of the time. "Ken MacKay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gTONc.85168$[email hidden]... > alexti wrote: > > > > > I can confirm that MSFF and Thrustmaster Ferrari FF both give 1024steering > > resolution. > > Kind of makes you wonder what the 20 wheels were that Don gave away thatdidn't > include a MSFF, Thustmaster Ferrari, ForceRS, LWFF or a Momo. ;-) > > > But the real precision is much more than the resolution. It > > requires wheel mechanism to operate precisely passing the movement ofthe > > steering wheel itself to the sensors/pots and for them to translate it > > accurately into a signal. More than that, all this high precision willbe > > lost if the wheel is not attached rigidly to the dest (and if the deskis > > not rigidly attached to the seat/chair). > > Agreed, no point having 1024 point output if there is a lot of play in the > mechanism. That said, it'd have to be fairly bad before it would start to > affect driving performance, IMHO. It would however make a big differencein the > feel. For example both the ForceRS and my homebuilt wheel have a direct > connection of the pot to the steering shaft... move either wheel a small > fraction of a degree back and forth and it registers on the screen. It isjust > as easy to hit an apex with either wheel and lap times are about the same. > However I prefer to use the homebuilt one because it has a more solid feel(wood > and steel vs plastic housing), and there is less play (bearings versus aplastic > bushing on the steering shaft). I have no doubt that an ECCI wheel wouldfeel > nicer and last longer that one of the wheels mentioned above. What Iwanted to > point out is that some consumer grade wheels can offer good enoughprecision > (i.e. as good and possibly even better than a high end wheel) for a driverto be > competitive. Goes back to the part of the article that some of us haveproblems > with... the BS about needing a high end wheel to go fast. > > Ken