FF or not?

I've had my Logitech Momo for about two years or so. The left paddle shifter has broke, the microswitch isn't clicking anymore. I am thinking about just getting a new wheel, but I'd like to try fixing it (hard because there are screws everywhere on the housing). I am thinking about "non-force-feedback" wheels, simply because I have begun to wonder as of late if force feedback might actually be hurting my racing experience. Non-force-feedback wheels are also cheaper (although many don't have the quality of pedals of my Momo). So my question is: do you think force feedback is realistic (I do not have a driver's license so I have not had much driving experience of real cars, much less racing cars)? Do you think it helps or hurts your driving? In a real car do the forces on the car really come through the wheel (assuming it is a modern power steering car?). I play mostly rally racing, dirt track racing, and occasionally NASCAR type games.

"magnulus" wrote... > I've had my Logitech Momo for about two years or so. > The left paddle shifter has broke, the microswitch > isn't clicking anymore. I am thinking about just getting > a new wheel, but I'd like to try fixing it (hard because > there are screws everywhere on the housing). If we're talking the original, red MOMO, this should be extremely easy to do: Undo the 6 hex screws that hold the brushed metal plate on the face of the wheel. *** Warning: the wheel is now no longer held on to the base, so don't pull on it or allow the base to drop away. *** Remove the plate, undo the lefthand connector and remove the 3? (not sure) screws holding the switch/led PCB in place. Take out the PCB, replace the microswitch with a similar item from any electronic parts store (requires basic rework equipment, i.e. a soldering iron/lead and some desoldering braid), re-assemble and Bob is your proverbial uncle. Buying another wheel to replace a Logitech MOMO... tssk!! ;-) > I am thinking about "non-force-feedback" wheels, > <snip> TSSK!!! ;-) > So my question is: do you think force feedback is realistic (I > do not have a driver's license so I have not had much driving > experience of real cars, much less racing cars)? Depends on one's game of choice and one's willingness to fiddle with settings to get a good feel for the virtual vehicle. The only games to acchieve approximate realism are GPL/NR2003, F12002/F1C, RC2001, Rally Trophy and LFS, IMO. Exact realism is questionable because the limited amount of lock-to-lock travel of the PC wheel vs. its real life counterpart tends to tilt either the forces or the weighing of the steering too much, so I think it's best to view FF as a tool to immersion/consistency/fun rather than an exact simulation (it's also pretty individual). > Do you think it helps or hurts your driving? It helps my consistency and enjoyment, but non-FF is definately faster once one is used to it. > In a real car do the forces on the car really come through > the wheel (assuming it is a modern power steering car?). Yes, even with power steering suspension forces are reacted through the wheel. There is no car where you can drive along, set an amount of lock, let go of the wheel and continue on the same radius. Even non-FF wheels "simulate" self aligning torque. > I play mostly rally racing, dirt track racing, and occasionally > NASCAR type games. Non-FF is a disadvantage when running the latest NASCAR games as instead of the geometry ensuring that the wheel is "naturally" slightly turned to the right while going straight, non-FF users have to hold the wheel in that position while its centering spring pushes it back. Jan. =---

"Jan Verschueren" wrote: <snip> > I think it's best to view FF as a tool to immersion/consistency/funrather > than an exact simulation (it's also pretty individual). I'd agree, Jan. Even a decent wheel like a Momo feels pretty unlike a steering mechanism of a car but it does provide a representation and a replacement for the physical inputs a driver feels. Whether this improves the experience is down to preference. As I have stated before representing the feeling through the graphics works best for me. > > Do you think it helps or hurts your driving? > > It helps my consistency and enjoyment, but non-FF is definately fasteronce > one is used to it. The opposite for me, FF impacts on consistency as the car feels like it is driving itself. Once used to FF the inout can be used to good effect. I am not convinced it is necessarily any more realistic but within the limits of racing sims is a fair input to use. > > In a real car do the forces on the car really come through > > the wheel (assuming it is a modern power steering car?). > > Yes, even with power steering suspension forces are reacted through the > wheel. There is no car where you can drive along, set an amount of lock,let > go of the wheel and continue on the same radius. Even non-FF wheels > "simulate" self aligning torque. True, but in reality most non racers greatest experience of a sliding car is probably on slippery surfaces like snow, ice and gravel where the steering feedback is less defined. I did some road rallying in my distant past in some hard winters and on some dodgy farm tracks ("whites" for the initiated in the UK). In such circumstances winding on opposite lock was both intuitive and with very little resistance (due to the surface and the fact that the car is rotating) With FF the steering either assists your opposite locking to overcome the mechanism or you have push the wheel against the mechanism (with an accompanying whine). Either way it never feels quite right. Clearly comparing my experience in Avengers and Asconas on ice and snow with a race car on dry tarmac is flawed to say the least, but having slid (and spun) a few more exotic vehicles including a single seater on a track since I would stand by my view that the steering does not feel like an FF wheel. As Jan says, treat it like a tool to overcome the physical limitations of current sim racing rather than an accurate representation of the feel of driving a car. Cheers Tony

"magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pWnMc.29981$[email hidden]... > I've had my Logitech Momo for about two years or so. The left paddle > shifter has broke, the microswitch isn't clicking anymore. I am thinking > about just getting a new wheel, but I'd like to try fixing it (hardbecause

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> there are screws everywhere on the housing). > > I am thinking about "non-force-feedback" wheels, simply because I have > begun to wonder as of late if force feedback might actually be hurting my > racing experience. Non-force-feedback wheels are also cheaper (although > many don't have the quality of pedals of my Momo). > > So my question is: do you think force feedback is realistic (I do not > have a driver's license so I have not had much driving experience of real > cars, much less racing cars)? Do you think it helps or hurts your

driving? > In a real car do the forces on the car really come through the wheel > (assuming it is a modern power steering car?). Watch 5 minutes of any race(F1, Nascar, FIA Rally), and you'll see that forces are transmitted through the wheel. More than anything, the FF we get through our wheels isnt as strong as in real life. > > I play mostly rally racing, dirt track racing, and occasionally NASCAR > type games. > >

I have the black Momo wheel, not the red one.

magnulus wrote: | I have the black Momo wheel, not the red one. "How To Fix MoMo Racing's paddle switches for good": http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=61403 Lots of screws alright... ;)

"tomb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > magnulus wrote: > | I have the black Momo wheel, not the red one. > > "How To Fix MoMo Racing's paddle switches for good": > > http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=61403 I got my dad to help me take apart the steering wheel. There are a TON of screws in that sucker. It turns out the microswitch is fine, it works OK. What's really messed up is the paddle is broken. There is a piece of plastic that depresses the microswitch, and it snapped off- looks like stress caused it to snap. We tried using some ABS glue on it (maybe epoxy would have been better), but I am thinking it won't be strong enough to withstand much usage (who knows, maybe I'll get lucky). I'll probably end up buying a new Logitech Momo if it breaks again. Two years of usage is fairly good; it lasted longer than the warranty. I only wish they made this thing out of metal in certain places. I was using it as a handbrake. It probably wasn't built for that kind of usage. Especially since I used it as a handbrake in every single game. I checked out the gear shifter while I was in there, and it is built very sturdy, it would probably withstand it alot better. I usually drive automatic in all my games (except sometimes Formula 1 type games), but it is a useful button to have to navigate through menus. They should start making dedicated hanbrakes for wheels. Maybe something like the Act Labs gearshifter- a stand-alone unit. Or something built onto the wheel. They need something that you can pull on and hold down without it getting too stressed out.

"Biz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:HOwMc.316904$[email hidden]... > Watch 5 minutes of any race(F1, Nascar, FIA Rally), and you'll see that > forces are transmitted through the wheel. More than anything, the FF weget > through our wheels isnt as strong as in real life. But racing cars usually have some kind of power steering. Wouldn't that tend to damp forces acting on the wheel? Could you feel the differences in tire grip in those situations? I know in NASCAR (from some reading I have done) the wheels have some kind of speed sensitive power steering- which is one thing I do not like about the Papyrus NASCAR sims, the wheel feels like it has none, and you can develope some very "jerky" forces on the wheel (and with the FF turned up, they can be very powerful, you really have to fight the wheel). I preffer the feel of NASCAR HEAT or NASCAR Thunder. You can feel a loss of grip, but it is more subtle. Also, adjusting the speed sensitivity of the steering directly affects the force feedback in those games (increasing or decreasing the force damping). As I said, I have very little real-world driving experience to compare it to, much less real-world racing experience.

Tony Rickard wrote: > Clearly comparing my experience in Avengers and Asconas on ice and snow > with a race car on dry tarmac is flawed to say the least, but having slid > (and spun) a few more exotic vehicles including a single seater on a track > since I would stand by my view that the steering does not feel like an FF > wheel. I'd have agreed with you until spending the last few days with richard burns rally. Not perfect by a long shot, and with the obligatory 'extra' inputs that you'd normally get through the arse and feet, but still very impressive, the way the feel changes dramatically on surfaces, between wet and dry, goes really light when you lock the wheels... Charlie

When an Indy car is about to hit the wall, what's the LAST thing you always see the drivers doo... ? They get them hands OFF of the wheel less they acquire a case of "Racers Wrist". -Larry P.S. The "doo" was a typo, but it ironicly fit so well I left it alone :) "magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PvAMc.18154$[email hidden]... > > But racing cars usually have some kind of power steering. Wouldn'tthat > tend to damp forces acting on the wheel? Could you feel the differencesin > tire grip in those situations?

"Larry" wrote: > When an Indy car is about to hit the wall, what's the LAST thing you > always see the drivers doo... ? > > They get them hands OFF of the wheel less they acquire a case of "Racers > Wrist". It is not a great marketing ploy for an FF wheel maker though...

> > Watch 5 minutes of any race(F1, Nascar, FIA Rally), and you'll see that > > forces are transmitted through the wheel. More than anything, the FF we > get > > through our wheels isnt as strong as in real life. > > But racing cars usually have some kind of power steering. Wouldn'tthat > tend to damp forces acting on the wheel? Could you feel the differencesin > tire grip in those situations? > > I know in NASCAR (from some reading I have done) the wheels have somekind > of speed sensitive power steering- which is one thing I do not like about > the Papyrus NASCAR sims, the wheel feels like it has none, and you can > develope some very "jerky" forces on the wheel (and with the FF turned up, > they can be very powerful, you really have to fight the wheel). I preffer > the feel of NASCAR HEAT or NASCAR Thunder. You can feel a loss of grip,but > it is more subtle. Also, adjusting the speed sensitivity of the steering > directly affects the force feedback in those games (increasing ordecreasing > the force damping). In NR2003, I tend to run FF at ~50-60% for the reasons you mentioned. It provides pretty good front tire feedback without the crazy forces. There's still one thing I could do without, and that's weight transfer and rear tire related forces. IMHO, that's where the wackier forces come from. Nothing bothers me more than correcting for oversteer and having the wheel jerk as the rear tires grip and the chassis rolls over. Frequently it actually -prevents- me from saving it if I've held the countersteer a bit too long. If ya ask me, get rid of those extra FF inputs and NR2003 and F1C would be very good. They can be mitigated, but I'm hoping GTR will allow me to do away with them altogether. Alan

On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:09:15 -0400, magnulus wrote: > So my question is: do you think force feedback is realistic (I do not > have a driver's license so I have not had much driving experience of real > cars, much less racing cars)? Do you think it helps or hurts your driving? Personally I use a TSW2 stock non-ff wheel and have tried various ff-enabled wheels at a friend's place (I think the one he uses now is the red momo one with the leather wheel thingy), and I've found that I am quicker and generally more precise using my own, non-ff rig. Your mileage might vary, but I'd rather spend a couple of extra bucks on a well-engineered non-ff wheel than on an ff version (not saying the momo isn't well-engineered, but I've never gotten the hang of FF in racing sims no matter what settings I've tried). Cheers, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

"Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:09:15 -0400, magnulus wrote: > > > So my question is: do you think force feedback is realistic (I do not > > have a driver's license so I have not had much driving experience ofreal > > cars, much less racing cars)? Do you think it helps or hurts yourdriving? I think it helps for the immersion into the game when its set reasonably well > Personally I use a TSW2 stock non-ff wheel and have tried various > ff-enabled wheels at a friend's place (I think the one he uses now is > the red momo one with the leather wheel thingy), and I've found that I > am quicker and generally more precise using my own, non-ff rig. Since I started with a FF setup, I find the opposite to be true. I keep looking for the small nuances to let me know when the car is rolling over etc... that you do not get without FF. IF you changed even non-FF wheels I'm pretty sure you would be slower until you got used to the different wheel.

Aye but the question is whether it's realistic - not if it's faster/slower. Sim racers do a lot of unrealistic things that are faster than real life. Personally - when you bang an inside wheel off a curb, or things like that, or lock a wheel, with a properly set FF, it does a decent job of replicating that. For me, even with the nicely dampened high performance wheels, it's more like driving a Mustang GT with it's numb powersteering. IRL i drive a European car, and it's far from numb and FF is closer to that. But it ain't fully realistic. "Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 03:09:15 -0400, magnulus wrote: > > > So my question is: do you think force feedback is realistic (I do not > > have a driver's license so I have not had much driving experience ofreal > > cars, much less racing cars)? Do you think it helps or hurts yourdriving?

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> > Personally I use a TSW2 stock non-ff wheel and have tried various > ff-enabled wheels at a friend's place (I think the one he uses now is > the red momo one with the leather wheel thingy), and I've found that I > am quicker and generally more precise using my own, non-ff rig. > > Your mileage might vary, but I'd rather spend a couple of extra bucks > on a well-engineered non-ff wheel than on an ff version (not saying > the momo isn't well-engineered, but I've never gotten the hang of FF > in racing sims no matter what settings I've tried). > > Cheers, > > uwe > > -- > mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) > Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ > Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) > GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

"magnulus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<pWnMc.29981 > So my question is: do you think force feedback is realistic IMO, it's more realistic than not having FF. That is, unless you are trying to simulate a car with power steering. It completely depends on the sim, though. Some will never be anything near realistic. Others come somewhat closer. > Do you think it helps or hurts your driving? It definitely helps mine. I can go for a long time without driving GPL, then come back and be fully in control. Not necessarily fast right away, but definitely in control. I find that if you go for a while without driving in non-FF mode, it's harder to get back into control. The main reason is it's just not natural to drive with no sensory input of G forces. > In a real car do the forces on the car really come through the wheel > (assuming it is a modern power steering car?). I'd say no. But, when running low caster in my oval kart, the steering wheel forces feel pretty much exactly like GPL. The steering torque caused by pnuematic trail is modelled really well in GPL. (On a side note, most kart setups use so much caster that the pneumatic trail moment is saturated by the mechanical trail moment. It's a real loss of useful feedback.) Pat Dotson