What was Indy 500 like?

Just read the Story of Papyrus games, interesting reading. The article says that Indy 500 was the Grand Daddy of the Papy Sims. I got into racing sims around the time of ICR and ICR2. I never had a crack at Indy 500. I imagine that it would be similar to ICR. I would like to hear your opinions on what it was like for its time. Maybe someone that still has a copy could load it up and give us a mini review? Was it playable over Modem Lan etc? As some of you would remember, I recently loaded up ICR2 on my old Laptop and rediscovered how good it was for its age. I know it is not likely, but has anybody seen it around on ebay etc? Darf

It seemed impossibly hard to drive at the time, but driving it 10 years later, seemed ridiculously easy. No multiplayer, but the AI was surprisingly good. It simulated the '89 race, with all 33 drivers and 3 marques (Penske, Lola and March), and each car handled differently. Turbo boost was a wonderful strategic choice, but if you ran with low boost, you could only eliminate 1 pitstop in 500 miles; not enuf to make up the time lost. I ran a dozen full 500s (which took about 3-1/3 hours @) and won 11. I turned what I thought was a record-breaking 242-mph lap, but Dave Kaemmer told me somebody else had gone 244 by using a trick I hadn't thought of: varying the wing angle during the lap (thus increasing grip in the corners and reducing drag on the straights). Watching other cars race (a random number seed--like Doppler FX, a Papyt first--made every race different) was so mesmerizing that I used to park at the pit entrance or down in Turn 1 and just watch the AIs race by themselves. There was no pit-lane speed limit in those days, so you could come off Turn 4 at full chat, slam on the brakes at just the right moment (no brake lock-up either), and slide to a stop in your pit (the location never changed) within a foot or two from 200+ mph, and save up to 20 sec. over the AIs. Great game (as I said in a review in Car and Driver...also a first). "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:41066165$0$18194$[email hidden]...

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> Just read the Story of Papyrus games, interesting reading. > The article says that Indy 500 was the Grand Daddy of the Papy Sims. > I got into racing sims around the time of ICR and ICR2. > I never had a crack at Indy 500. > I imagine that it would be similar to ICR. > I would like to hear your opinions on what it was like for its time. > Maybe someone that still has a copy could load it up and give us a mini > review? Was it playable over Modem Lan etc? > As some of you would remember, I recently loaded up ICR2 on my old Laptop > and rediscovered how good it was for its age. > I know it is not likely, but has anybody seen it around on ebay etc? > > Darf > >

Great mini review. Now I need to have a crack at it. The Variable wing settings on the run sound interesting. Isn't it strange how the passing of time, and the years of driving different Sims can alter your perception of what a Sim was like to drive back then. It says a lot about a Sim if, despite advances made with the new stuff, you can go back to it years later and still have fun driving it. Any more mini reviews guys? Darf "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yauNc.64829$[email hidden]...

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> It seemed impossibly hard to drive at the time, but driving it 10 years > later, seemed ridiculously easy. > > No multiplayer, but the AI was surprisingly good. > > It simulated the '89 race, with all 33 drivers and 3 marques (Penske, Lola > and March), and each car handled differently. > > Turbo boost was a wonderful strategic choice, but if you ran with low

boost, > you could only eliminate 1 pitstop in 500 miles; not enuf to make up the > time lost. > > I ran a dozen full 500s (which took about 3-1/3 hours @) and won 11. > > I turned what I thought was a record-breaking 242-mph lap, but DaveKaemmer > told me somebody else had gone 244 by using a trick I hadn't thought of: > varying the wing angle during the lap (thus increasing grip in the corners > and reducing drag on the straights). > > Watching other cars race (a random number seed--like Doppler FX, a Papyt > first--made every race different) was so mesmerizing that I used to parkat > the pit entrance or down in Turn 1 and just watch the AIs race by > themselves. > > There was no pit-lane speed limit in those days, so you could come offTurn > 4 at full chat, slam on the brakes at just the right moment (no brake > lock-up either), and slide to a stop in your pit (the location never > changed) within a foot or two from 200+ mph, and save up to 20 sec. overthe > AIs. > > Great game (as I said in a review in Car and Driver...also a first).

I remember buying it at a Amiga Computer Store in Charleston, SC while on vacation, Amiga Store were hard to find. It cost $79.00, I still have the Box. I won a 500 mile race drving with the mouse :>) and that was the only 500 mile race I ever ran! It was amazing, and I got that same excitment when I bought my first PC just to be able to run Nascar 1. It is very ironic that EA was the Publisher for Papys first sim, and EA was the reason that Papy ended creating Racing Sims, but as they say, what goes around comes around ! Watch Out EA ! The Amiga 500 was an amazing computer for its time ! RapidRoy

"PC24" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I remember buying it at a Amiga Computer Store in Charleston, SC > while on vacation, Amiga Store were hard to find. It cost > $79.00, I still have the Box. I won a 500 mile race drving with > the mouse :>) and that was the only 500 mile race I ever ran! > > It was amazing, and I got that same excitment when I bought my first > PC just to be able to run Nascar 1. > > It is very ironic that EA was the Publisher for Papys first sim, > and EA was the reason that Papy ended creating Racing Sims, but > as they say, what goes around comes around ! Watch Out EA ! > > The Amiga 500 was an amazing computer for its time ! > > RapidRoy

I still have my copy for the Amiga in the roof !!! ;-)

I had the Amiga computer version of Indy 500, and I found it to be superior to the PC version. What was really interesting about it was the way it used the mouse as the steering wheel. It amazed me that they were able to model analog steering with the mouse. The AI was way ahead of its time and this was the first racing game I'd played where I could actually "feel" the physics of car handling to some degree. It was indeed a classic! "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:41066165$0$18194$[email hidden]...

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> Just read the Story of Papyrus games, interesting reading. > The article says that Indy 500 was the Grand Daddy of the Papy Sims. > I got into racing sims around the time of ICR and ICR2. > I never had a crack at Indy 500. > I imagine that it would be similar to ICR. > I would like to hear your opinions on what it was like for its time. > Maybe someone that still has a copy could load it up and give us a mini > review? Was it playable over Modem Lan etc? > As some of you would remember, I recently loaded up ICR2 on my old Laptop > and rediscovered how good it was for its age. > I know it is not likely, but has anybody seen it around on ebay etc? > > Darf > >

Darf wrote: > The article says that Indy 500 was the Grand Daddy of the Papy Sims. I remember paying it as a kid. Had no real clue though, just kept messing around with the other cars. > [..] Was it playable over Modem Lan etc? LAN? Come on, networks were really expensive back in the days of the 80286 processor :) > I know it is not likely, but has anybody seen it around on ebay etc? Get it here (Abandonware): http://mitglied.lycos.de/gamekeepers/indy500.exe I tried it with a program called dosbox (http://dosbox.sf.net), it works great. Just start adlib.bat and off you go. Don't expect too much, though. I like the music, reminds me of the old days(tm).

I bought it first for the Amiga, and loved the ability to use the mouse to steer with; I could get it so accurately placed with the mouse. No save feature, so a full-length race was a real feat of endurance. When I bought my first PC I also bought the PC version of the game but much preferred driving the Amiga version. Still got the PC edition and, if you are interested in trying it, The Underdogs have it available in their collection for free download. Using VDMS it runs fine under WinXP. A fabulous game for its time and a true classic. Bruce "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:41066165$0$18194$[email hidden]... > Just read the Story of Papyrus games, interesting reading.

PC24 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I remember buying it at a Amiga Computer Store in Charleston, SC > while on vacation, Amiga Store were hard to find. It cost > $79.00, I still have the Box. I won a 500 mile race drving with > the mouse :>) and that was the only 500 mile race I ever ran! > > It was amazing, and I got that same excitment when I bought my first > PC just to be able to run Nascar 1. > > It is very ironic that EA was the Publisher for Papys first sim, > and EA was the reason that Papy ended creating Racing Sims, but > as they say, what goes around comes around ! Watch Out EA ! > > The Amiga 500 was an amazing computer for its time ! > > RapidRoy

How was EA the reason Papy ended ?

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:42:12 +0000 (UTC), Paulinho wrote:

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>> >> The Amiga 500 was an amazing computer for its time ! >> >> RapidRoy > > > I still have my copy for the Amiga in the roof !!! > > ;-)

What, no Amiga???? ;-) I still have my ancient A1200 sitting on the shelf in my room under protective foil, next to my first ever computer, a Dragon 64 from way back, made in England ;-) My first Amiga (A500) died a nasty death in a soldering accident I don't want to describe in more detail here, but the Amiga was (and for things like "Pinball Dreams", "Pinball Fantasies" and "MechForce", still is) a wonderful machine for the creative mind. cheers, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= <[email hidden]> wrote here on 27 Jul 2004: <snip> > What, no Amiga???? ;-) I still have my ancient A1200 sitting on > the shelf in my room under protective foil, next to my first ever > computer, a Dragon 64 from way back, made in England ;-) <snip> I still have a Dragon 32. :) -- Please remove ".invalid" to reply by email. Support the world's oldest motorsport venue! http://www.shelsley-walsh.co.uk/future.html

On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:19:45 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote: > How was EA the reason Papy ended ? >They bought all the gaming rights to Nascar, Papy's complete fixation and thus their death.

No Spam <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:19:45 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > How was EA the reason Papy ended ? > > > They bought all the gaming rights to Nascar, Papy's complete fixation > and thus their death.

So ? Thats more Papys/Nascars fault, than EAs. >

The Amiga version came well after the PC version, and EA insisted that it have steering "help" so it wouldn't be so hard to drive. Kaemmer broke w. EA over the "easier to drive" issue (which he detested), but owed EA one more game on Papy's contract, so squeezed out "Full Throttle" (or whatever that game was with bikers lashing each other with chains), for little credit at the time, and no mention in Gordo's sycophantic history of Kaemmer's career on Gamespot (however richly deserved). "John Cauthen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ce67nk$3rkd$[email hidden]... > I had the Amiga computer version of Indy 500, and I found it to besuperior > to the PC version. What was really interesting about it was the way itused > the mouse as the steering wheel. It amazed me that they were able tomodel

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> analog steering with the mouse. The AI was way ahead of its time and this > was the first racing game I'd played where I could actually "feel" the > physics of car handling to some degree. It was indeed a classic! > > "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:41066165$0$18194$[email hidden]... > > Just read the Story of Papyrus games, interesting reading. > > The article says that Indy 500 was the Grand Daddy of the Papy Sims. > > I got into racing sims around the time of ICR and ICR2. > > I never had a crack at Indy 500. > > I imagine that it would be similar to ICR. > > I would like to hear your opinions on what it was like for its time. > > Maybe someone that still has a copy could load it up and give us a mini > > review? Was it playable over Modem Lan etc? > > As some of you would remember, I recently loaded up ICR2 on my old

Laptop

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> > and rediscovered how good it was for its age. > > I know it is not likely, but has anybody seen it around on ebay etc? > > > > Darf > > > > > >

Steve, it was called Road Rash. Pete "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PTDNc.98214$[email hidden]... > The Amiga version came well after the PC version, and EA insisted that it > have steering "help" so it wouldn't be so hard to drive. Kaemmer broke w. > EA over the "easier to drive" issue (which he detested), but owed EA one > more game on Papy's contract, so squeezed out "Full Throttle" (or whatever > that game was with bikers lashing each other with chains), for littlecredit > at the time, and no mention in Gordo's sycophantic history of Kaemmer's > career on Gamespot (however richly deserved).

Uwe, Pinball Dreams and Fantasies were awesome. I still haven't found a pinball game for the PC that matches them. I still have my 500 and 2000 both run accelerators and HD's. Amiga equals real multi-tasking! :-) Pete "Uwe Sch�rkamp" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 17:42:12 +0000 (UTC), Paulinho wrote: > > What, no Amiga???? ;-) I still have my ancient A1200 sitting on the > shelf in my room under protective foil, next to my first ever > computer, a Dragon 64 from way back, made in England ;-) > > My first Amiga (A500) died a nasty death in a soldering accident I > don't want to describe in more detail here, but the Amiga was (and for > things like "Pinball Dreams", "Pinball Fantasies" and "MechForce", > still is) a wonderful machine for the creative mind. > > cheers, > > uwe

"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:PTDNc.98214$[email hidden]... > The Amiga version came well after the PC version, and EA insisted that it > have steering "help" so it wouldn't be so hard to drive. Kaemmer broke w. > EA over the "easier to drive" issue (which he detested), but owed EA one > more game on Papy's contract, so squeezed out "Full Throttle" (or whatever > that game was with bikers lashing each other with chains), for littlecredit > at the time, and no mention in Gordo's sycophantic history of Kaemmer's > career on Gamespot (however richly deserved). Interesting stuff... I didn't know that! Now you've got me interested in trying the PC version of Indy 500!! Did the PC version also have the mouse steering option? BTW, I really enjoyed Road Rash on the 3DO, even though it wasn't the type of game I normally go for.

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:08:43 -0400, "John Cauthen" <[email hidden]> wrote: >BTW, I really enjoyed Road Rash on the 3DO, even though it wasn't the type >of game I normally go for. One of the few 3do games that was playable, really. =) Jason

I still remember reading the review, seeing the screenshots, and realizing that it now had become possible to make a similar 'complete season' Formula-1 sim. Then, the next year or so, F1GP came out and I lost part of my life LOL On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:06:28 +1000, "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Just read the Story of Papyrus games, interesting reading. >The article says that Indy 500 was the Grand Daddy of the Papy Sims. >I got into racing sims around the time of ICR and ICR2. >I never had a crack at Indy 500. >I imagine that it would be similar to ICR. >I would like to hear your opinions on what it was like for its time. >Maybe someone that still has a copy could load it up and give us a mini >review? Was it playable over Modem Lan etc? >As some of you would remember, I recently loaded up ICR2 on my old Laptop >and rediscovered how good it was for its age. >I know it is not likely, but has anybody seen it around on ebay etc? > >Darf >

========================================================= view my other fakes at: http://ffleetwebspace.free.fr/tmfu/index_ng.htm =========================================================

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sbCNc.255$[email hidden]...

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> > No Spam <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:19:45 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > How was EA the reason Papy ended ? > > > > > They bought all the gaming rights to Nascar, Papy's complete

fixation > > and thus their death. > > So ? Thats more Papys/Nascars fault, than EAs. The end result is the same. Malc.

Hey Ruud, You sound like the kind of Computer Museum I can only dream about. If you'll pay the postage, I'll donate my CP/M-powered Otrona Attache, the finest "luggable" ever designed! Deal? --Steve "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ce7f4r$ama$[email hidden]...

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> Uwe Sch�rkamp wrote: > > > What, no Amiga???? ;-) I still have my ancient A1200 sitting on the > > shelf in my room under protective foil, next to my first ever > > computer, a Dragon 64 from way back, made in England ;-) > > > Heck, that's nothing. > > Beside my old Amiga 1000, I still have the A3000 (and a copy of Indy 500 > to run on it). > > And a couple of old C64's, including a much-expanded one and a new one > still in box. > > And a couple of C128's. > > And a couple of Apple II's, including some of those way-cool IIGS's. > > And a couple of MSX machines. > > And a couple of VAXen and Indy's. > > And a couple of DEC PDP's. > > And a couple of Macs ('bout 20 I guess). > > And a couple of pc's (including THE IBM PC, the 5150). > > And a couple of Sinclairs (ZX81 and Speccys). > > And a couple of Acorn BBC's (because they're so cool and the machines > the first real racing sim, Revs, appeared on). > > And a couple of Tandy TRS80's. > > And a couple of CP/M machines, including the Osborne 1. > > And a couple of old Commodores, like the PET 2001 and a pre-Commodore > KIM-1 (dated 1976, pride of my collection). > > ..but then I'm a bit of a frea... eh, hardware history buff ;) > > > don't want to describe in more detail here, but the Amiga was (and for > > things like "Pinball Dreams", "Pinball Fantasies" and "MechForce", > > still is) a wonderful machine for the creative mind. > > Yep. Demos like '9 Fingers' and 'Arte' ruled the day. Shame CBM > management was worse than anything before or after. > > Regards, Rudy > -------------------- > GPLRank: -22

Oopsies - that's right: Full Throttle was Tim Shafer's game for Lucasarts in 1995. Kaemmer didn't develop Road Rash, he merely ported the game (originally on the Sega Genesis) from the 3DO to the PC in 1991. "Pete" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:sPENc.13514$[email hidden]...

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> Steve, it was called Road Rash. > > Pete > > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:PTDNc.98214$[email hidden]... > > The Amiga version came well after the PC version, and EA insisted that

it > > have steering "help" so it wouldn't be so hard to drive. Kaemmer brokew. > > EA over the "easier to drive" issue (which he detested), but owed EA one > > more game on Papy's contract, so squeezed out "Full Throttle" (orwhatever > > that game was with bikers lashing each other with chains), for little > credit > > at the time, and no mention in Gordo's sycophantic history of Kaemmer's > > career on Gamespot (however richly deserved). > >

Darf wrote: > Just read the Story of Papyrus games, interesting reading. > The article says that Indy 500 was the Grand Daddy of the Papy Sims. > I would like to hear your opinions on what it was like for its time. It was pretty darn amazing for its day. I remember it being very addictive after a while (like GPL would be later on) - just couldn't stop and always having another go. Had to learn to drive with a mouse to go fast, though, which was a bit of a pain (but keyboard was even worse - and slower). The Doppler, crash 'n wallop sounds were shagadelic for its day, baby. And it also was (and is) one of the few games that runs on an unexpanded 512 Kb (yea, half a Megabyte) Amiga 1000 - smoothly, too, and a great demonstration of what that machine was capable of. Smooth 3D graphics were almost unheard of, back then! (The Amiga basically had what would become dedicated gfx and sound chips, some years later. Regards, Rudy -------------------- GPLRank: -22

Uwe Sch�rkamp wrote: > What, no Amiga???? ;-) I still have my ancient A1200 sitting on the > shelf in my room under protective foil, next to my first ever > computer, a Dragon 64 from way back, made in England ;-) Heck, that's nothing. Beside my old Amiga 1000, I still have the A3000 (and a copy of Indy 500 to run on it). And a couple of old C64's, including a much-expanded one and a new one still in box. And a couple of C128's. And a couple of Apple II's, including some of those way-cool IIGS's. And a couple of MSX machines. And a couple of VAXen and Indy's. And a couple of DEC PDP's. And a couple of Macs ('bout 20 I guess). And a couple of pc's (including THE IBM PC, the 5150). And a couple of Sinclairs (ZX81 and Speccys). And a couple of Acorn BBC's (because they're so cool and the machines the first real racing sim, Revs, appeared on). And a couple of Tandy TRS80's. And a couple of CP/M machines, including the Osborne 1. And a couple of old Commodores, like the PET 2001 and a pre-Commodore KIM-1 (dated 1976, pride of my collection). ..but then I'm a bit of a frea... eh, hardware history buff ;) > don't want to describe in more detail here, but the Amiga was (and for > things like "Pinball Dreams", "Pinball Fantasies" and "MechForce", > still is) a wonderful machine for the creative mind. Yep. Demos like '9 Fingers' and 'Arte' ruled the day. Shame CBM management was worse than anything before or after. Regards, Rudy -------------------- GPLRank: -22

I just had to try it, so thanks Raphael for the link. Running XP, so I loaded it up using a boot disk, as I struggled using Dosbox without reading the instructions, but only got PC speaker sound. Well, it reminded me of Gilligan's Island, no phones no lights, no motor cars, not a single luxury, like Robinson Caruso, Primitive as can be. My, have we come a long way guys. Makes ICR2 seem like a real piece of art. Never the less, this thing still feels like fun. Nowhere near as refined as ICR2, but the feel is still there. Could not work out how to get the mouse working, (does the PC version support mouse). Took it for a few laps using the Keys, after 6 or so laps I pulled a 45.78 don't know if this is good or bad :-) I like the bit where you touch the wall and the whole screen just flashes red and yellow squares :-) Looks like it is done in 16 colours? Must have been out around the same time as the Old 8086's and EGA monitors? Would love to have a crack at it with the logitech. :-) Tried drag and drop with Dosbox and got it going with emulated adlib sound .... thats better ... but only running in a window now .... Is that the best you can get using Dosbox? Funny how even back then, for the limitations that he had to work with, he still made a sim that gives you the sensation of speed that most of his sims have so far. Well that was fun, I might just go and relax in a hamock now, have a slice of Coconut cream pie and see if Mary Anne will give me a massage. :-) Darf "Raphael Barabas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > Get it here (Abandonware): > http://mitglied.lycos.de/gamekeepers/indy500.exe > > I tried it with a program called dosbox (http://dosbox.sf.net), it > works great. Just start adlib.bat and off you go. Don't expect too > much, though. I like the music, reminds me of the old days(tm).

"Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<41066165$0$18194$[email hidden]>...

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> Just read the Story of Papyrus games, interesting reading. > The article says that Indy 500 was the Grand Daddy of the Papy Sims. > I got into racing sims around the time of ICR and ICR2. > I never had a crack at Indy 500. > I imagine that it would be similar to ICR. > I would like to hear your opinions on what it was like for its time. > Maybe someone that still has a copy could load it up and give us a mini > review? Was it playable over Modem Lan etc? > As some of you would remember, I recently loaded up ICR2 on my old Laptop > and rediscovered how good it was for its age. > I know it is not likely, but has anybody seen it around on ebay etc? > > Darf

I know it isn't the same but somebody, somewhere made the Indianapolis Speedway track available. I downloaded it and placed it as one of the tracks in GrandPrix 3 if I recall and it worked fairly well. I was thinking about putting it with GPL since those cars were very similar to what actually raced in the 500 in those days. Maybe someone here knows where you can get that download.

"Steve Smith" wrote... > Hey Ruud, > > You sound like the kind of Computer Museum I can only > dream about. If you'll pay the postage, I'll donate > my CP/M-powered Otrona Attache, the finest "luggable" > ever designed! Deal? "luggable"... hehehe that's a great term. Jan. =---

Darf wrote: > Tried drag and drop with Dosbox and got it going with emulated adlib sound > .... thats better ... but only running in a window now .... Is that the best > you can get using Dosbox? Try pressing ALT-Enter for fullscreen (320x200 definitely looked better on my 12" monitor back then).

Indy 500. I remember the first time I played it. The tinny sounding motor from the pc speaker. Going down the main straight, like I was in a canyon. My first sound card...sitting in the pits and hearing the others go by. Coming down off of four and aiming for that little entrance to the pits...then going from smooth to that rough and bumpy pit road... just like on tv. Sore right elbow from using the keypad to steer, wrist locked down to the table, elbow tensed and up in the air. And I loved when an accident happened and the explosion of color and pieces of cars flying through the air. And terrific ai...really amazing for its time. Mike

Thanks again Raphael, that worked. Gilligan decided he had better work off some of that Coconut cream pie, so he took it for another few laps, with Full screen Dosbox.... Whoa!!!!. Pulled a 44.72 this time. If anyone beats it let me know..... Fingers are still aching from using the Keyboard .......mean while back to the hammock. :-) Darf "Raphael Barabas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Darf wrote: > > Tried drag and drop with Dosbox and got it going with emulated adlibsound > > .... thats better ... but only running in a window now .... Is that thebest > > you can get using Dosbox? > > Try pressing ALT-Enter for fullscreen (320x200 definitely looked > better on my 12" monitor back then).

This lashup of yers doesn't support a joystick? Anything would be pref to driving w. the keyboard.... "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4107f0f1$0$6935$[email hidden]... > Thanks again Raphael, that worked. > Gilligan decided he had better work off some of that Coconut cream pie, > so he took it for another few laps, with Full screen Dosbox.... Whoa!!!!. > Pulled a 44.72 this time. If anyone beats it let me know..... Fingers are > still aching from using the Keyboard .......mean while back to thehammock.

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> :-) > > > Darf > > "Raphael Barabas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Darf wrote: > > > Tried drag and drop with Dosbox and got it going with emulated adlib > sound > > > .... thats better ... but only running in a window now .... Is that

the

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> best > > > you can get using Dosbox? > > > > Try pressing ALT-Enter for fullscreen (320x200 definitely looked > > better on my 12" monitor back then). > >

Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:410793fd$0$55024$[email hidden]...

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> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:sbCNc.255$[email hidden]... > > > > No Spam <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > On Tue, 27 Jul 2004 16:19:45 -0500, "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > How was EA the reason Papy ended ? > > > > > > > They bought all the gaming rights to Nascar, Papy's complete > fixation > > > and thus their death. > > > > So ? Thats more Papys/Nascars fault, than EAs. > > The end result is the same. > > Malc.

True, but then thats still not EA's fault.

http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/abandonware/pc/simulations/games_i_o/indianapolis_500.html "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4107f0f1$0$6935$[email hidden]... > Thanks again Raphael, that worked. > Gilligan decided he had better work off some of that Coconut cream pie, > so he took it for another few laps, with Full screen Dosbox.... Whoa!!!!. > Pulled a 44.72 this time. If anyone beats it let me know..... Fingers are > still aching from using the Keyboard .......mean while back to thehammock.

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> :-) > > > Darf > > "Raphael Barabas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > Darf wrote: > > > Tried drag and drop with Dosbox and got it going with emulated adlib > sound > > > .... thats better ... but only running in a window now .... Is that

the

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> best > > > you can get using Dosbox? > > > > Try pressing ALT-Enter for fullscreen (320x200 definitely looked > > better on my 12" monitor back then). > >

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:eTUNc.22$[email hidden]...

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> > Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:410793fd$0$55024$[email hidden]... > > The end result is the same. > > > > Malc. > > > True, but then thats still not EA's fault.

No, it means it's debatable. For whatever reason Papy lost the NASCAR license & EA gained it. Papy/Sierra/Vivendi may have made a decision or a mistake, EA may have got lucky or intended to try to take out a competitor & succeeded. There's really no way to know either way, but the end result is that Papy shut down. Some will blame EA, some will blame Papy/Sierra/Vivendi management, both are probably right to some degree. Not everything is black & white. Malc.

One thing they did (that I don't think anybody has done since including Papyrus) is to leave the damaged cars (after a wreck) on the track and remove them one at a time. I remember going to yellow and thinking, gee I wonder what happened. We (the AI and I) would all go around the track and see the wreck. Then each lap one or more cars would disappear and you could get an idea of when the green would come out. I remember the line of cars would actually steer around the wreck (if need be). I still miss not having that in the modern sims. Russell

"Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > One thing they did (that I don't think anybody has done sinceincluding > Papyrus) is to leave the damaged cars (after a wreck) on the track and > remove them one at a time. I don't know about other sims but if an AI car crashes in gpl the wreck hangs around for a couple of minutes. I think it adds to the realism too, as does (to a lesser extent) the way gpl stops you resetting the car if there is traffic nearby. As the approaching driver it forces you to avoid the realistic crashed car, not the unrealistic new car popping into existence on the other side of the track ;-) Viper racing let you reset anytime (as did the AI when they crashed, frequently) but the car was 'transparent' for a few seconds to avoid you shunting a car that suddenly appears in front of you. Handy for racing but it it's a constant reminder that you are playing a game & not really racing a car. Malc.

Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4108296d$0$58508$[email hidden]...

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> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:eTUNc.22$[email hidden]... > > > > Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:410793fd$0$55024$[email hidden]... > > > > The end result is the same. > > > > > > Malc. > > > > > > True, but then thats still not EA's fault. > > No, it means it's debatable. For whatever reason Papy lost the NASCAR > license & EA gained it. Papy/Sierra/Vivendi may have made a decision or > a mistake, EA may have got lucky or intended to try to take out a > competitor & succeeded. There's really no way to know either way, but > the end result is that Papy shut down. Some will blame EA, some will > blame Papy/Sierra/Vivendi management, both are probably right to some > degree. > > Not everything is black & white. > > Malc.

Debatable ? How ? Sierra/Papy, etc. HAD the license. They lost it (or weren't interested anymore, or "gave it up", or whatever), it wasn't taken from them. Show me how its EA's fault. EA ponied up. Sierra/Papy didn't. Yep, it is that black and white.

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9tWNc.25$[email hidden]... > Show me how its EA's fault. Is there any point? You are entitled to your opinion, I'm just pointing out that there are two sides to the story. Go look into it yourself if you're that interested. I don't have an opinion either way, I just think it's the end of an era. I'm not particularly a fan of NASCAR either, and I have both Papy and EA sims on my PC. As one era draws to a close another will hopefully begin. Personally I'm not bothered about what titles EA produce with their NASCAR license, but I look forward with considerable interest to seeing what the ex-papy crew do over the next couple of years. Malc.

Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:41083629$0$25135$[email hidden]...

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> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9tWNc.25$[email hidden]... > > > Show me how its EA's fault. > > Is there any point? You are entitled to your opinion, I'm just pointing > out that there are two sides to the story. Go look into it yourself if > you're that interested. > > I don't have an opinion either way, I just think it's the end of an era. > I'm not particularly a fan of NASCAR either, and I have both Papy and EA > sims on my PC. > > As one era draws to a close another will hopefully begin. Personally I'm > not bothered about what titles EA produce with their NASCAR license, but > I look forward with considerable interest to seeing what the ex-papy > crew do over the next couple of years. > > Malc.

<shrug> I'm not interested at all. Just amused how EA got blamed for the situation, and instead of being pesimistic/end of an era, I'm looking forward to the future of Nascar sims. Look at Nascar if one wants to blame someone, would most likely be a better bet.

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DOWNc.27$[email hidden]...

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> Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:41083629$0$25135$[email hidden]... > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:9tWNc.25$[email hidden]... > > > > > Show me how its EA's fault. > > > > Is there any point? > <shrug> I'm not interested at all.

Why ask the question if you're not interested? Can you really not see the reasoning behind people 'blaming' EA for Papy's demise? Even if you disagree with it you should at least understand their point, it's just as valid as blaming Papy/Sierra/Vivendi Management. Malc.

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DOWNc.27. Just amused how EA got blamed for the > situation, and instead of being pesimistic/end of an era, I'm looking > forward to the future of Nascar sims. What future? lol <rolls eyes>

Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:41084026$0$65934$[email hidden]...

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> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:DOWNc.27$[email hidden]... > > Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:41083629$0$25135$[email hidden]... > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:9tWNc.25$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > Show me how its EA's fault. > > > > > > Is there any point? > > > <shrug> I'm not interested at all. > > Why ask the question if you're not interested? > > Can you really not see the reasoning behind people 'blaming' EA for > Papy's demise? Even if you disagree with it you should at least > understand their point, it's just as valid as blaming > Papy/Sierra/Vivendi Management. > > Malc.

Already answered your question; it was amusing that EA was being blamed, and I wanted to hear the "logic" behind that. And no, I don't see any reasoning behind people blaming EA.

TDRacin� <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DOWNc.27. Just amused how EA > got blamed for the > > situation, and instead of being pesimistic/end of an era, I'm looking > > forward to the future of Nascar sims. > > What future? lol <rolls eyes>

One way to look at it <shrug> Not one to subscribe to the "sky is falling" mindset myself.

I can't see anything in the menus at all regarding setting up of any controls. Can't even see where you could change controls to use the mouse to steer. I can't even move the throttle and brake away from the arrow keys to stop the hand cramps :-( Life is tough here on Gilligan's Island (except for when Mary Anne comes over) :-) Darf "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:GOUNc.85082$[email hidden]... > This lashup of yers doesn't support a joystick? Anything would be pref to > driving w. the keyboard.... >

A little more background.... Indy 500 was (to the best of my knowledge) where offline racing started. We ran an offline league in '91 called LittleIndy, and a similar series ran on Compuserve. Not much for variety of course...same track every week....just varied the distance. But we tracked points and wins, and even had a news letter. The game is of course lame by today's standards, but was state of the art back then. Like I've heard others say, Indy 500 was the reason I bought my first computer. Saw a 30 sec blurb in a bio of Emmo Fittipaldi where he was playing the game warming up for the 500, and had to have it. ;-) Btw....you could get those big speeds by maxing the tire pressures out. On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 00:06:28 +1000, "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>Just read the Story of Papyrus games, interesting reading. >The article says that Indy 500 was the Grand Daddy of the Papy Sims. >I got into racing sims around the time of ICR and ICR2. >I never had a crack at Indy 500. >I imagine that it would be similar to ICR. >I would like to hear your opinions on what it was like for its time. >Maybe someone that still has a copy could load it up and give us a mini >review? Was it playable over Modem Lan etc? >As some of you would remember, I recently loaded up ICR2 on my old Laptop >and rediscovered how good it was for its age. >I know it is not likely, but has anybody seen it around on ebay etc? > >Darf >

Steve Smith wrote: > You sound like the kind of Computer Museum I can only dream about. If > you'll pay the postage, I'll donate my CP/M-powered Otrona Attache, the > finest "luggable" ever designed! Deal? That's a very fine offer Steve, thank you! Unfortunately, apart from me being just about totally skint again atm, I don't have the room anymore for CP/M boxen of such largesse (as you can probably imagine). I needed to cut back on collecting anyway, and am now concentrating more on those rare-gem finds and old accessories like cartridges and ROM cards etc (anybody got one of those Apple II emulation cards for the LC Macintosh? Or a Commodore Max? Totally rare in Europe, dudes...) Regards, Rudy ----------------- GPLRank: -22 PS. As a side note, the finest portables in the early age came from Epson, like the HX-20 (first 'laptop' ever in 1982) and most notably the PX-8 (do look this up on Google Images - it's the FINEST laptop of the era, excellent design and manufacturing... and Epson STILL provides support for these little 8-bitters on its website, believe it or not.) Forgot to mention I have a couple of these too and feel almost ashamed since they be truly great. Probably the only CP/M machines where CP/M was actually in ROM. To run Wordstar you put a second (EP)ROM in and voila. Not to mention that the HX-20 even had a little printer built-in (!). >>Heck, that's nothing. >> >>Beside my old Amiga 1000, I still have the A3000 (and a copy of Indy 500 >>to run on it). >>And a couple of VAXen and Indy's.

In terms of NASCAR sims, it fell. Will not be one until at least when EA's contract is up. Fortunately NASCAR isn't the only form of racing out there, and with the papy group still around to produce some sims, the future certainly looks bright. "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:1TXNc.32$[email hidden]... > > TDRacin� <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DOWNc.27. Just amused howEA

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> > got blamed for the > > > situation, and instead of being pesimistic/end of an era, I'm looking > > > forward to the future of Nascar sims. > > > > What future? lol <rolls eyes> > > > One way to look at it <shrug> Not one to subscribe to the "sky is > falling" mindset myself. > >

"Russell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> One thing they did (that I don't think anybody has done since including > Papyrus) is to leave the damaged cars (after a wreck) on the track and > remove them one at a time. I remember going to yellow and thinking, gee > I wonder what happened. We (the AI and I) would all go around the track > and see the wreck. Then each lap one or more cars would disappear and > you could get an idea of when the green would come out. I remember the > line of cars would actually steer around the wreck (if need be). I > still miss not having that in the modern sims.

One of the things GP4 does really well is the clean up after a big wreck. The cars stay where they landed until the marshalls have time to run out and flag the wreck, then start to clean up. It's quite immersive to come around the corner and see the little polygon marshalls running to the wrecked cars and pushing them to the side. The only thing not modelled is the actual cranes in motion to pluck the cars into the air from the sidelines, although they do magically levitate once the marshalls have pushed them to the side.

"Darf" wrote... > I can't see anything in the menus at all regarding > setting up of any controls. > Can't even see where you could change controls to > use the mouse to steer. > I can't even move the throttle and brake away from > the arrow keys to stop the hand cramps :-( Actually, you should be using the numpad keys. The control layout is shown when in the pits. PC version supports only two-axis, two button joystick, I think. X-axis is steering, button 1 accellerator, button 2 brake and, when stopped, Y- (pulling back on the stick) engages reverse. Via dosbox it even recognises my wheel in "combined axis" mode, though it's not very comfortable to use the paddles for gas/brake either, I have to say. Definately easier to make the turns, though. Jan. =---

Didn't Epson offer the widely-scorned "Valdocs" ("valuable documents," get it) OS? I actually thought that had some merit. The finest DOS word processor ever, IMO, was the Leading Edge of the mid-80s. Blisteringly fast, even w/o a cursor. And relentlessly logical. I wrote 2 books on it. Unfortunately, it couldn't convert/output text into any other format, so the bloody manuscripts had to be re-keyed. "Ruud Dingemans" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ce9nqn$8mf$[email hidden]...

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> Steve Smith wrote: > > You sound like the kind of Computer Museum I can only dream about. If > > you'll pay the postage, I'll donate my CP/M-powered Otrona Attache, the > > finest "luggable" ever designed! Deal? > > That's a very fine offer Steve, thank you! Unfortunately, apart from me > being just about totally skint again atm, I don't have the room anymore > for CP/M boxen of such largesse (as you can probably imagine). > > I needed to cut back on collecting anyway, and am now concentrating more > on those rare-gem finds and old accessories like cartridges and ROM > cards etc (anybody got one of those Apple II emulation cards for the LC > Macintosh? Or a Commodore Max? Totally rare in Europe, dudes...) > > Regards, Rudy > ----------------- > GPLRank: -22 > > PS. As a side note, the finest portables in the early age came from > Epson, like the HX-20 (first 'laptop' ever in 1982) and most notably the > PX-8 (do look this up on Google Images - it's the FINEST laptop of the > era, excellent design and manufacturing... and Epson STILL provides > support for these little 8-bitters on its website, believe it or not.) > Forgot to mention I have a couple of these too and feel almost ashamed > since they be truly great. Probably the only CP/M machines where CP/M > was actually in ROM. To run Wordstar you put a second (EP)ROM in and > voila. Not to mention that the HX-20 even had a little printer built-in

(!).

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> > > >>Heck, that's nothing. > >> > >>Beside my old Amiga 1000, I still have the A3000 (and a copy of Indy 500 > >>to run on it). > > >>And a couple of VAXen and Indy's.

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:WRXNc.31$[email hidden]... > Already answered your question; it was amusing that EA was beingblamed, > and I wanted to hear the "logic" behind that. > > And no, I don't see any reasoning behind people blaming EA. I guess you can appreciate that if one is to blame Papy/Sierra/Vivendi management it would be because one thinks they either messed up & lost the NASCAR license, or decided it wasn't financially worth hanging on to. The flip side of this is that EA may well have believed that in losing their F1 license to Sony they needed another 'big brand' license and so 'poached' the NASCAR license from Papy by simply throwing money at NASCAR until they sold out. In this way EA would not only gain a potentially valuable license, they would also damage the only other serious competitor in that area, which it certainly did. Whether the NASCAR license is an adequate replacement for the F1 one is debatable, but it's got to be better for EA than no license at all for any major form of motorsport, hence the justification for believing Papy's demise to be 'EA's fault'. Malc.

That explains why I never found it.... I never went in the Pits :-) Darf "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lB3Oc.197829$[email hidden]... > Actually, you should be using the numpad keys. The control layout is shown > when in the pits.

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:WRXNc.31$[email hidden]:

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> > Already answered your question; it was amusing that EA was being > blamed, > and I wanted to hear the "logic" behind that. > > And no, I don't see any reasoning behind people blaming EA. >

The hilarious irony isn't about blame, it's that: If EA didn't exist, papyrus may never have got properly started. and If EA didn't exist, papyrus may still be going today. It's just funny, there's no need to be such a fanboy about it. cheers John

JM <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:WRXNc.31$[email hidden]: > > > > > Already answered your question; it was amusing that EA was being > > blamed, > > and I wanted to hear the "logic" behind that. > > > > And no, I don't see any reasoning behind people blaming EA. > > > > The hilarious irony isn't about blame, it's that: > > If EA didn't exist, papyrus may never have got properly started. > > and > > If EA didn't exist, papyrus may still be going today. > > It's just funny, there's no need to be such a fanboy about it. > > cheers > John

Fanboy ? lol, thats rich, coming from this ng.

<shrug> We'll see. I have complete faith, that a quality Nascar sim is still possible, without Papy and with EA. TDRacin� <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > In terms of NASCAR sims, it fell. Will not be one until at least whenEA's > contract is up. Fortunately NASCAR isn't the only form of racing outthere,

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> and with the papy group still around to produce some sims, the future > certainly looks bright. > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:1TXNc.32$[email hidden]... > > > > TDRacin� <TDRacinnospamflashmail.com> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:DOWNc.27. Just amused how > EA > > > got blamed for the > > > > situation, and instead of being pesimistic/end of an era, I'm

looking

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> > > > forward to the future of Nascar sims. > > > > > > What future? lol <rolls eyes> > > > > > > One way to look at it <shrug> Not one to subscribe to the "sky is > > falling" mindset myself. > > > > > >

Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:4108e503$0$2196$[email hidden]...

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> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:WRXNc.31$[email hidden]... > > > Already answered your question; it was amusing that EA was being > blamed, > > and I wanted to hear the "logic" behind that. > > > > And no, I don't see any reasoning behind people blaming EA. > > I guess you can appreciate that if one is to blame Papy/Sierra/Vivendi > management it would be because one thinks they either messed up & lost > the NASCAR license, or decided it wasn't financially worth hanging on > to. > > The flip side of this is that EA may well have believed that in losing > their F1 license to Sony they needed another 'big brand' license and so > 'poached' the NASCAR license from Papy by simply throwing money at > NASCAR until they sold out. In this way EA would not only gain a > potentially valuable license, they would also damage the only other > serious competitor in that area, which it certainly did. > > Whether the NASCAR license is an adequate replacement for the F1 one is > debatable, but it's got to be better for EA than no license at all for > any major form of motorsport, hence the justification for believing > Papy's demise to be 'EA's fault'. > > Malc.

EA has been "throwing" money(sponsoring races, cars, pr events) at Nascar for the last few years. How initiated that, EA or Nascar, who knows. But thats part of the point. Sierra/Papy, etc. could have done the same. They chose not to, for whatever reason. But it was *their* choice. Not poaching, when no one is prohibited from doing the same as anyone else. Now if being financially "prohibited" from doing so is the reason Sierra/Papy bowed out, big deal. Thats their problem, not EA's. > >

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:M2eOc.56$[email hidden]: > > Fanboy ? lol, thats rich, coming from this ng. > > > You want some gravy for that chip on your shoulder? I don't speak for "this ng", and I have about as many EA titles as I do Sierra ones. Have fun whatever you're driving cheers John

JM <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:M2eOc.56$[email hidden]: > > > > > > Fanboy ? lol, thats rich, coming from this ng. > > > > > > > > You want some gravy for that chip on your shoulder? > > I don't speak for "this ng", and I have about as many EA titles as I do > Sierra ones. > > Have fun whatever you're driving > cheers > John

Just responding to your comment buddy. If I need a chip, I can borrow yours, eh ?

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:M9eOc.58$[email hidden]... > EA has been "throwing" money(sponsoring races, cars, pr events) atNascar > for the last few years. How initiated that, EA or Nascar, who knows.But > thats part of the point. Sierra/Papy, etc. could have done the same.They > chose not to, for whatever reason. But it was *their* choice. > Not poaching, when no one is prohibited from doing the same asanyone > else. Now if being financially "prohibited" from doing so is thereason > Sierra/Papy bowed out, big deal. > > Thats their problem, not EA's. Of course, but that's not what we're talking about ;-) You didn't see how EA could be 'blamed' for Papy's demise, now you do. You don't have to agree with it, and you can argue the toss forever if you want, we'll never know for sure ;-) Best to focus on what we do know. Papy is gone & it's the end of an era in motorsport simulation. Whether they were the best in their field or not they were bloody good & deserve respect. On the other hand we now have two things to look forward to. You have the potential to see EA make something worthwhile out of their NASCAR license, and the future looks fairly promising for the ex-Papy crew at the moment. Not sure the F1 crowd have much to look forward to for the next couple of years though ;-) Malc.

"Malc" wrote... > > <snip> > Not sure the F1 crowd have much to look forward to for > the next couple of years though ;-) Then again, one might wonder if it's worthwhile to simulate a series that needs historically significant racetracks torn up in order to create an overtaking opportunity (cfr. Hockenheim). Jan. =---

Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:410990c3$0$65006$[email hidden]...

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> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:M9eOc.58$[email hidden]... > > > EA has been "throwing" money(sponsoring races, cars, pr events) at > Nascar > > for the last few years. How initiated that, EA or Nascar, who knows. > But > > thats part of the point. Sierra/Papy, etc. could have done the same. > They > > chose not to, for whatever reason. But it was *their* choice. > > Not poaching, when no one is prohibited from doing the same as > anyone > > else. Now if being financially "prohibited" from doing so is the > reason > > Sierra/Papy bowed out, big deal. > > > > Thats their problem, not EA's. > > Of course, but that's not what we're talking about ;-) > > You didn't see how EA could be 'blamed' for Papy's demise, now you do. > You don't have to agree with it, and you can argue the toss forever if > you want, we'll never know for sure ;-) > > Best to focus on what we do know. Papy is gone & it's the end of an era > in motorsport simulation. Whether they were the best in their field or > not they were bloody good & deserve respect. > > On the other hand we now have two things to look forward to. You have > the potential to see EA make something worthwhile out of their NASCAR > license, and the future looks fairly promising for the ex-Papy crew at > the moment. > > Not sure the F1 crowd have much to look forward to for the next couple > of years though ;-) > > Malc.

Yep. Btw, I thought I read that the only ex-Papy person would be Kaemmer ? Hear anything like that ? Can't remember the details myself, but i.e., no Sentell, Heath, etc., just 3d artists and Kaemmer. Not that that would be bad, but am wondering if that rumor is true or not. > >

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:eCgOc.76$[email hidden]... > > Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:410990c3$0$65006$[email hidden]... > > On the other hand we now have two things to look forward to. Youhave > > the potential to see EA make something worthwhile out of theirNASCAR > > license, and the future looks fairly promising for the ex-Papy crewat > > the moment. > Yep. Btw, I thought I read that the only ex-Papy person would beKaemmer ? > Hear anything like that ? Can't remember the details myself, buti.e., no > Sentell, Heath, etc., just 3d artists and Kaemmer. > Not that that would be bad, but am wondering if that rumor is trueor not. http://www.gamespot.com/features/6103365/p-8.html Malc.

Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:410998b4$0$65504$[email hidden]...

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> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:eCgOc.76$[email hidden]... > > > > Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:410990c3$0$65006$[email hidden]... > > > > On the other hand we now have two things to look forward to. You > have > > > the potential to see EA make something worthwhile out of their > NASCAR > > > license, and the future looks fairly promising for the ex-Papy crew > at > > > the moment. > > > Yep. Btw, I thought I read that the only ex-Papy person would be > Kaemmer ? > > Hear anything like that ? Can't remember the details myself, but > i.e., no > > Sentell, Heath, etc., just 3d artists and Kaemmer. > > Not that that would be bad, but am wondering if that rumor is true > or not. > > http://www.gamespot.com/features/6103365/p-8.html > > Malc.

Yeah, saw that when it was first posted. Just thought I saw something else on it, elsewhere. Maybe not.

Basically, it set the precedent for all things Papy ie about as good as it could be taking into account the power offered by current hardware. Probably one of the first sims that the word "immersion" applied to. The good physics made you soon forget the crude graphics :) "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:41066165$0$18194$[email hidden]...

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> Just read the Story of Papyrus games, interesting reading. > The article says that Indy 500 was the Grand Daddy of the Papy Sims. > I got into racing sims around the time of ICR and ICR2. > I never had a crack at Indy 500. > I imagine that it would be similar to ICR. > I would like to hear your opinions on what it was like for its time. > Maybe someone that still has a copy could load it up and give us a mini > review? Was it playable over Modem Lan etc? > As some of you would remember, I recently loaded up ICR2 on my old Laptop > and rediscovered how good it was for its age. > I know it is not likely, but has anybody seen it around on ebay etc? > > Darf > >

Papy was always very involved with Nascar, until about the time Sierra came along I think. I believe it was Bobby Labonte that practically WROTE the manuals for Nascar Racing 2. That's another thing. Anyone else notice that the manuals went to shit about the time Sierra came into the fold ? -Larry "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:M9eOc.58$[email hidden]...

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> > Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:4108e503$0$2196$[email hidden]... > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:WRXNc.31$[email hidden]... > > > > > Already answered your question; it was amusing that EA was being > > blamed, > > > and I wanted to hear the "logic" behind that. > > > > > > And no, I don't see any reasoning behind people blaming EA. > > > > I guess you can appreciate that if one is to blame Papy/Sierra/Vivendi > > management it would be because one thinks they either messed up & lost > > the NASCAR license, or decided it wasn't financially worth hanging on > > to. > > > > The flip side of this is that EA may well have believed that in losing > > their F1 license to Sony they needed another 'big brand' license and so > > 'poached' the NASCAR license from Papy by simply throwing money at > > NASCAR until they sold out. In this way EA would not only gain a > > potentially valuable license, they would also damage the only other > > serious competitor in that area, which it certainly did. > > > > Whether the NASCAR license is an adequate replacement for the F1 one is > > debatable, but it's got to be better for EA than no license at all for > > any major form of motorsport, hence the justification for believing > > Papy's demise to be 'EA's fault'. > > > > Malc. > > > EA has been "throwing" money(sponsoring races, cars, pr events) at

Nascar > for the last few years. How initiated that, EA or Nascar, who knows. But > thats part of the point. Sierra/Papy, etc. could have done the same.They

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> chose not to, for whatever reason. But it was *their* choice. > Not poaching, when no one is prohibited from doing the same as anyone > else. Now if being financially "prohibited" from doing so is the reason > Sierra/Papy bowed out, big deal. > > Thats their problem, not EA's. > > > > > > > >

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:o4eOc.57$[email hidden]... > <shrug> We'll see. I have complete faith, that a quality Nascar sim is > still possible, without Papy and with EA. >EA hasn't managed to do one yet...

On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 07:52:52 -0700, Ruud Dingemans wrote: > ..but then I'm a bit of a frea... eh, hardware history buff ;) That's a mild understatement, Ruud ;-) Good to hear your pension is taken care of, when you'll finally have enough time to open that computer museum ;-) uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

On 27 Jul 2004 22:51:27 GMT, David Buttery wrote: > I still have a Dragon 32. :) > Sorry to hear that, David, you must have missed out on the great OS that was OS/9 (and only ran on the 64 model I believe). Heck, I was well prepared when I entered uni a decade later as it was so similar to Unix on the command line level. Quite a feat to put a multitasking, multiuser OS (although without swap) into 64kb (that's KiloBYTES for you) of RAM and still have some left to run Pascal compilers, word processors, Spreadsheets and so on (all without swap space, mind you) I still have the Dragon64 OS/9 manual on my shelf and skim through it from time to time, it really was a fascinating machine for its day. cheers, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

You keep that faith :>) You'll need to hang on to that faith for a long long time ! This will be part of EA's all new quality Sim as you call it ! For the bitter losers, players can take their disputes off the track in post-race confrontations, including opportunities to settle disputes with NASCAR stars by racing cars through city streets. NASCAR 2005: Chase for the Cup is slated for release August 31st, 2004.

LaBonte writing the manual for N2(if even true) has nothing to do with being involved with *Nascar*. He's a driver, not the series management. Tell me, how many races, cars, etc. over the years did you see Papy stickers on ? Now, how many had EA stickers ? Hint: answer to question number one is zero. Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:vhsOc.2582$FW1.1837@lakeread06... > Papy was always very involved with Nascar, until about the time Sierracame > along I think. > > I believe it was Bobby Labonte that practically WROTE the manuals forNascar

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> Racing 2. > > That's another thing. Anyone else notice that the manuals went to shit > about the time Sierra came into the fold ? > > -Larry > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:M9eOc.58$[email hidden]... > > > > Malc <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:4108e503$0$2196$[email hidden]... > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > > news:WRXNc.31$[email hidden]... > > > > > > > Already answered your question; it was amusing that EA was being > > > blamed, > > > > and I wanted to hear the "logic" behind that. > > > > > > > > And no, I don't see any reasoning behind people blaming EA. > > > > > > I guess you can appreciate that if one is to blame Papy/Sierra/Vivendi > > > management it would be because one thinks they either messed up & lost > > > the NASCAR license, or decided it wasn't financially worth hanging on > > > to. > > > > > > The flip side of this is that EA may well have believed that in losing > > > their F1 license to Sony they needed another 'big brand' license and

so > > > 'poached' the NASCAR license from Papy by simply throwing money at > > > NASCAR until they sold out. In this way EA would not only gain a > > > potentially valuable license, they would also damage the only other > > > serious competitor in that area, which it certainly did. > > > > > > Whether the NASCAR license is an adequate replacement for the F1 oneis

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> > > debatable, but it's got to be better for EA than no license at all for > > > any major form of motorsport, hence the justification for believing > > > Papy's demise to be 'EA's fault'. > > > > > > Malc. > > > > > > EA has been "throwing" money(sponsoring races, cars, pr events) at > Nascar > > for the last few years. How initiated that, EA or Nascar, who knows.

But

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> > thats part of the point. Sierra/Papy, etc. could have done the same. > They > > chose not to, for whatever reason. But it was *their* choice. > > Not poaching, when no one is prohibited from doing the same as anyone > > else. Now if being financially "prohibited" from doing so is the reason > > Sierra/Papy bowed out, big deal. > > > > Thats their problem, not EA's. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

PC24 <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> You keep that faith :>) You'll need to hang on to that faith for > a long long time ! > > This will be part of EA's all new quality Sim as you call it ! > > For the bitter losers, players can take their disputes off the track in > post-race confrontations, including opportunities to settle disputes > with NASCAR stars by racing cars through city streets. > > NASCAR 2005: Chase for the Cup is slated for release August 31st, 2004.

Thanks, I will. Btw, careful rounding corners with those blinders on. >

Yes its true B.Labonte contributed to N2. Many here on RAS complained bitterly that Sierra didnt do much if anything to advertise it as a Sim and target specific markets instead of the kiddie gamer. Papy is a developer not an advertiser thats up to the publisher. Youre going down a dead end and its not fair to try and compare EA to Sierra. Mitch "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:B2wOc.112$[email hidden]...

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> LaBonte writing the manual for N2(if even true) has nothing to do with > being involved with *Nascar*. He's a driver, not the series management. > > Tell me, how many races, cars, etc. over the years did you see Papy > stickers on ? Now, how many had EA stickers ? > > Hint: answer to question number one is zero. >

JP wrote:

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> PC24 <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > >>You keep that faith :>) You'll need to hang on to that faith for >>a long long time ! >> >>This will be part of EA's all new quality Sim as you call it ! >> >>For the bitter losers, players can take their disputes off the track in >>post-race confrontations, including opportunities to settle disputes >>with NASCAR stars by racing cars through city streets. >> >>NASCAR 2005: Chase for the Cup is slated for release August 31st, 2004. > > > > Thanks, I will. Btw, careful rounding corners with those blinders on. > > > > >

If the next nascar sim is shit i suppose it want be EA's fault either!

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:B2wOc.112$[email hidden]...

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> LaBonte writing the manual for N2(if even true) has nothing to do with > being involved with *Nascar*. He's a driver, not the series management. > > Tell me, how many races, cars, etc. over the years did you see Papy > stickers on ? Now, how many had EA stickers ? > > Hint: answer to question number one is zero.

Your answer to question number one is wrong! The correct answer is one. By the way I have some of the same Papyrus stickers that the driver ran. I'm amazed you missed the obvious answer. Papyrus also had stickers on some cars that didn't run in the cup races. If you want to know who wrote what manuals I suggest you ask Steve Smith. Not that I'm Papyrus' number one fan but you have also been wrong on a couple of other posts. After spending time at their shop and seeing things first hand plus talking with employees I did get a bit of an insight into what was going on. I'm not interested in a pissing match because whats the point in flogging a dead horse. When I came to the conclusion that Papy was dead in the water I was verbally pummeled for expressing that view. The writing was on the wall many years before it happened. Pete

Gerry Aitken <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:NOxOc.427$[email hidden]...

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> JP wrote: > > PC24 <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:[email hidden]... > > > >>You keep that faith :>) You'll need to hang on to that faith for > >>a long long time ! > >> > >>This will be part of EA's all new quality Sim as you call it ! > >> > >>For the bitter losers, players can take their disputes off the track in > >>post-race confrontations, including opportunities to settle disputes > >>with NASCAR stars by racing cars through city streets. > >> > >>NASCAR 2005: Chase for the Cup is slated for release August 31st, 2004. > > > > > > > > Thanks, I will. Btw, careful rounding corners with those blinders on. > > > > > > > > > > > If the next nascar sim is shit i suppose it want be EA's fault either!

Lol, I'm sure there's supposed to be a point here, but who knows what.

I know he contributed to N2, I still have that video i.e. somewhere. "Writing the manual" is a bit more than contributing though, I would think. Dead end ? Not fair ? Explain please. p.s. I know Sierra/Papys ex-relationship, but since the statement was "Papy was always very involved with Nascar.." figured might as well keep on the same course. Mitch_A <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lvxOc.4680$[email hidden]...

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> Yes its true B.Labonte contributed to N2. > > Many here on RAS complained bitterly that Sierra didnt do much if anything > to advertise it as a Sim and target specific markets instead of the kiddie > gamer. Papy is a developer not an advertiser thats up to the publisher. > > Youre going down a dead end and its not fair to try and compare EA to > Sierra. > > Mitch > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:B2wOc.112$[email hidden]... > > LaBonte writing the manual for N2(if even true) has nothing to do with > > being involved with *Nascar*. He's a driver, not the series management. > > > > Tell me, how many races, cars, etc. over the years did you see Papy > > stickers on ? Now, how many had EA stickers ? > > > > Hint: answer to question number one is zero. > > > >

Pete <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lKyOc.29626$[email hidden]...

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> > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:B2wOc.112$[email hidden]... > > LaBonte writing the manual for N2(if even true) has nothing to do with > > being involved with *Nascar*. He's a driver, not the series management. > > > > Tell me, how many races, cars, etc. over the years did you see Papy > > stickers on ? Now, how many had EA stickers ? > > > > Hint: answer to question number one is zero. > > Your answer to question number one is wrong! The correct answer is

one. > > By the way I have some of the same Papyrus stickers that the driver ran.I'm > amazed > you missed the obvious answer. Papyrus also had stickers on some cars that > didn't > run in the cup races. I know of those stickers......and they weren't even fender contigency sponsorships(which EA has done for approx. half or more of the field for years) Papy just did in-car camera shot buys. > > If you want to know who wrote what manuals I suggest you ask Steve Smith. I'm not the least bit interested actually. Not that I'm Papyrus' number one fan but you have also been wrong on a couple of other posts. K. How so ? After spending time at their shop and seeing things first hand plus talking with employees I did get a bit of an insight into what was going on. I'm not interested in a pissing match because whats the point in flogging a dead horse. When I came to the conclusion that Papy was dead in the water I was verbally pummeled for expressing that view. The writing was on the wall many years before it happened. Yep.

You do realize this is for the consoles? "PC24" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> You keep that faith :>) You'll need to hang on to that faith for > a long long time ! > > This will be part of EA's all new quality Sim as you call it ! > > For the bitter losers, players can take their disputes off the track in > post-race confrontations, including opportunities to settle disputes > with NASCAR stars by racing cars through city streets. > > NASCAR 2005: Chase for the Cup is slated for release August 31st, 2004. >

Larry wrote: > I believe it was Bobby Labonte that practically WROTE the manuals for Nascar > Racing 2. Actually, according to the credits in the manual Bobby was credited for "Technical Racing Advice", and given a mention in the Special Thanks section. Steve Vandergriff is responsible for the fine manual, which I still read to this day! :) But I agree that without his track and setup tips, the manual would've been pretty run-of-the-mill. -Will

I doubt it. Bill Bollinger <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> You do realize this is for the consoles? > > "PC24" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > You keep that faith :>) You'll need to hang on to that faith for > > a long long time ! > > > > This will be part of EA's all new quality Sim as you call it ! > > > > For the bitter losers, players can take their disputes off the track in > > post-race confrontations, including opportunities to settle disputes > > with NASCAR stars by racing cars through city streets. > > > > NASCAR 2005: Chase for the Cup is slated for release August 31st, 2004. > > > >

William Bradshaw <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Larry wrote: > > > I believe it was Bobby Labonte that practically WROTE the manuals forNascar

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> > Racing 2. > > Actually, according to the credits in the manual Bobby was credited for > "Technical Racing Advice", and given a mention in the Special Thanks > section. Steve Vandergriff is responsible for the fine manual, which I > still read to this day! :) > > But I agree that without his track and setup tips, the manual would've > been pretty run-of-the-mill. > > > -Will

<g>

Uwe =?iso-8859-15?Q?Sch=FCrkamp?= <[email hidden]> wrote here on 30 Jul 2004:

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> On 27 Jul 2004 22:51:27 GMT, David Buttery wrote: > >> I still have a Dragon 32. :) >> > > Sorry to hear that, David, you must have missed out on the great > OS that was OS/9 (and only ran on the 64 model I believe).

<snip> Heh, well, even my Dragon ownership only dates from around 1996, though I did know about OS/9, and a very impressive achievement it was too. My general retro preference is for the BBC Micro, though - I have a Model B+ - basically a B with the disk controller and Shadow RAM as standard, the latter meaning an end to the chronic memory problems that any serious graphics programming produced on the original machine. One of these days I may even learn 6502 assembly properly! (The Beeb had an inline assembler capability you could use from within BASIC programs.) Oops, I must restrain myself before I really start to go on about the BBC. ;P In the 1980s I had a ZX81 and then an Amstrad PCW. The latter was marketed as a word-processor, but ran CP/M Plus, which to people like me was far more interesting thanks to the great heap of CP/M software around that was given a new life in the mid-late 1980s by the PCW's success. Not that I was all that good a programmer, but my experience there has meant that I don't run away screaming at the very sight of a command line. ;) -- Please remove ".invalid" to reply by email. Support the world's oldest motorsport venue! http://www.shelsley-walsh.co.uk/future.html

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9jzOc.120$[email hidden]... > > I know of those stickers......and they weren't even fender contigency > sponsorships(which EA has done for approx. half or more of the field for > years) > Papy just did in-car camera shot buys. You never mentioned contingencies. :-) They did give some money to one lower division car but I have forgotten his name. > K. How so ? On how decisions were made and who made them. The "guy" at the top made the decisions. One look in the parking lot told me who was calling the shots. The staff turnover of key people started very early in their history. If you don't pay people they don't stay. Pete

Pete <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:lKyOc.29626$[email hidden]...

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> > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:B2wOc.112$[email hidden]... > > LaBonte writing the manual for N2(if even true) has nothing to do with > > being involved with *Nascar*. He's a driver, not the series management. > > > > Tell me, how many races, cars, etc. over the years did you see Papy > > stickers on ? Now, how many had EA stickers ? > > > > Hint: answer to question number one is zero. > > Your answer to question number one is wrong! The correct answer is

one. > > By the way I have some of the same Papyrus stickers that the driver ran.I'm > amazed > you missed the obvious answer. Papyrus also had stickers on some cars that > didn't > run in the cup races. I know of those stickers......and they weren't even fender contigency sponsorships(which EA has done for approx. half or more of the field for years) Papy just did in-car camera shot buys. > > If you want to know who wrote what manuals I suggest you ask Steve Smith. Not interested in the least actually. > > Not that I'm Papyrus' number one fan but you have also been wrong on a > couple of > other posts. k. How so ? After spending time at their shop and seeing things first hand > plus talking > with employees I did get a bit of an insight into what was going on. > > I'm not interested in a pissing match because whats the point in flogginga > dead horse. > When I came to the conclusion that Papy was dead in the water I wasverbally > pummeled > for expressing that view. The writing was on the wall many years beforeit > happened. > > Pete > >

Pete <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hYYOc.34820$[email hidden]... > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9jzOc.120$[email hidden]... > > > > I know of those stickers......and they weren't even fendercontigency

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> > sponsorships(which EA has done for approx. half or more of the field for > > years) > > Papy just did in-car camera shot buys. > > > You never mentioned contingencies. :-) They did give some money to one > lower division car but I have forgotten his name.

<shrug> I said sponsor cars, and contigency sponsorships are one of the most common forms. Common knowledge. And even though its a lower level sponsorship, compared to an entire sponsorship, i.e., its way more than anything Sierra/Papy ever did, including their ONE time, iirc, camera shots. > > > > K. How so ? > > On how decisions were made and who made them. The "guy" at the > top made the decisions. One look in the parking lot told me who wascalling > the shots. The staff turnover of key people started very early in their > history. > If you don't pay people they don't stay. > > > Pete Don't follow what you're even talking about here; Papy ? Examples ? I'm wrong in how decisions were made, is that what you mean ? .......though I don't recall stating anything about "how decisions were made"....

Pete <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:hYYOc.34820$[email hidden]... > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:9jzOc.120$[email hidden]... > > > > I know of those stickers......and they weren't even fendercontigency

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> > sponsorships(which EA has done for approx. half or more of the field for > > years) > > Papy just did in-car camera shot buys. > > > You never mentioned contingencies. :-) They did give some money to one > lower division car but I have forgotten his name.

Looking back at the thread, I did say stickers, so I can see the confusion there. Stickers = sponsorship is what was meant by that. Car camera shots aren't that <g> But I can see how it would be confusing. Anyway, the point is, EA spent WAY more money, over WAY more time, on Nascar than Sierra/Papy ever did. Thats Sierra/Papys fault; they made that choice too.

Hey, I meant the RACING aspects of it, not the Political. -Larry "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:B2wOc.112$[email hidden]... > LaBonte writing the manual for N2(if even true) has nothing to do with > being involved with *Nascar*. He's a driver, not the series management. >

Racing aspects ? They still have that in Na$car ? <g> Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yLsPc.1258$Yf6.74@lakeread03...

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> Hey, I meant the RACING aspects of it, not the Political. > > -Larry > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:B2wOc.112$[email hidden]... > > LaBonte writing the manual for N2(if even true) has nothing to do with > > being involved with *Nascar*. He's a driver, not the series management. > > > >

Good point... -Larry "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:63zPc.221$[email hidden]... > Racing aspects ? They still have that in Na$car ? <g> > > > > Larry <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:yLsPc.1258$Yf6.74@lakeread03...

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> > Hey, I meant the RACING aspects of it, not the Political. > > > > -Larry > > > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > > news:B2wOc.112$[email hidden]... > > > LaBonte writing the manual for N2(if even true) has nothing to do

with > > > being involved with *Nascar*. He's a driver, not the seriesmanagement. > > > > > > > > >

Good point... -Larry

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> Racing aspects ? They still have that in Na$car ? <g> > > Hey, I meant the RACING aspects of it, not the Political. > > -Larry > > > LaBonte writing the manual for N2(if even true) has nothing to do

with > > > being involved with *Nascar*. He's a driver, not the series management.

On 31 Jul 2004 23:07:01 GMT, David Buttery wrote: > properly! (The Beeb had an inline assembler capability you could use > from within BASIC programs.) Oops, I must restrain myself before I > really start to go on about the BBC. ;P The BBC was my "dream machine" of its day, but those were even harder to come by in Germany than the Dragon 64 (which was the first computer I *owned*, not the first to hack on, just to clear things up). I scooped up the Dragon 64 for a meagre 500DM (half of the price tag for a new machine) from the local bank when they switched their computer lab to microchannel machines, I believe (yep, they ran Dragon's before that, if only for educational purposes ;-) The first machines I had physical access to were a Genie 16 and a TRS 80 at our local school (early 80's, I think), followed by a ZX/81 with a whopping 16kb of RAM and a real keyboard at a friend's place... <slap> must stop pining for the good ole days </slap ;-> cheers, uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61

JP, sorry for taking so long to respond(under the weather). The money spending decision at Papy was made by one person. When you have a person with an accounting background in charge, with the final say, what makes sense to most goes out the window in the name of the bottom line. If you get a situation were beating the bottom line and the deadline gets rewarded with bonuses and is more important than the end product well I think you can read between the lines. Too much power in too few hands with too narrow a view leads to a non-entity. Pete "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ZoZOc.163$[email hidden]... > Looking back at the thread, I did say stickers, so I can see theconfusion > there. Stickers = sponsorship is what was meant by that. Car camerashots > aren't that <g> > > But I can see how it would be confusing. > > Anyway, the point is, EA spent WAY more money, over WAY more time, on > Nascar than Sierra/Papy ever did. Thats Sierra/Papys fault; they madethat > choice too. > >