Background: I did a lot of sim racing several years ago, from the
original Indy500 to Indycar Racing and the original Nascar Racing. I
even did a bit of beta testing for Papyrus in the olden days. I have,
and love, GPL and Nascar 2003, but my old 800mHz machine just won't cut
it any more. I do all my useful work on a Mac these days.
Goal: I'd like to upgrade the old box, or buy a new one just for sim
racing. If I can run GPL and Nascar2003 with all the eye candy, full
fields, and good frame rates, I'd be happy. I also want to get into RBR
so that will probably raise my hardware requirements.
Need advice: Can I get away with buying a cheap box with a 2.6 or 2.8
P4 and a good video card? I'm not concerned with wringing out cutting
edge performance, I just wanna be able to race the above-mentioned sims
well. Which mobo, which chip (P4, Celeron, AMD), what clock speed, how
much RAM, what video card? Is the Radeon 9600 still the class of the
field? What about the 9800 or the 9200? I saw a machine with Geforce4
built into the mobo, would that be any good? Can I get away with a slow
basic CD drive? Will 512mB of RAM be enough, or will a gig be
beneficial?
I have a Logitech Momo FF wheel/pedal (black wheel) setup, and a nice
19" monitor that I'll retain. I'd like to keep the cost of the new
hardware to about US$500. Or could I use my wheel on a PS2 and save a
lot of money?
I'm out of touch with the current "good stuff". Please help an old
racer get back into the cockpit again!
...Ron
GPL and even N2003 are way behind the curve by now, so the hardware
requirements aren't insurmountable. Any CPU above 2 GHz ought to do, and a
comparable video card (a nVidia 5200 Ultra, say) should give you plenty of
eye candy. You don't need XP nor more than 512 Mb of RAM. Nforce 2 mobos
with the built-in Soundstorm chip will give you better audio than any sound
card other than an Audigy 2 ZS.
However, you can't beat the bang-per-buck of console racers. I wrote an
article for Motor Trend identifying Sony's Gran Turismo 3 as better than
almost every PC simulation, except those from Papyrus, and GT4, out very
soon, promises to be even better (I'm "road-testing" it for Car and Driver
as we speak), plus it's now got multiplayer capabilities. All the h/w and
s/w you need for under $250 (less if you use yer USB Momo wheel). You can't
beat that.
--Steve Smith (also a former Papyrus beta tester)
"Zuben el Genubi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (30 lines)
> Background: I did a lot of sim racing several years ago, from the > original Indy500 to Indycar Racing and the original Nascar Racing. I > even did a bit of beta testing for Papyrus in the olden days. I have, > and love, GPL and Nascar 2003, but my old 800mHz machine just won't cut > it any more. I do all my useful work on a Mac these days. > > Goal: I'd like to upgrade the old box, or buy a new one just for sim > racing. If I can run GPL and Nascar2003 with all the eye candy, full > fields, and good frame rates, I'd be happy. I also want to get into RBR > so that will probably raise my hardware requirements. > > Need advice: Can I get away with buying a cheap box with a 2.6 or 2.8 > P4 and a good video card? I'm not concerned with wringing out cutting > edge performance, I just wanna be able to race the above-mentioned sims > well. Which mobo, which chip (P4, Celeron, AMD), what clock speed, how > much RAM, what video card? Is the Radeon 9600 still the class of the > field? What about the 9800 or the 9200? I saw a machine with Geforce4 > built into the mobo, would that be any good? Can I get away with a slow > basic CD drive? Will 512mB of RAM be enough, or will a gig be > beneficial? > > I have a Logitech Momo FF wheel/pedal (black wheel) setup, and a nice > 19" monitor that I'll retain. I'd like to keep the cost of the new > hardware to about US$500. Or could I use my wheel on a PS2 and save a > lot of money? > > I'm out of touch with the current "good stuff". Please help an old > racer get back into the cockpit again! > > ...RonThanks Steve,
Aren't you the guy that wrote the setup guide for GPL? That makes you
much more than a beta-tester, IMO! I was back in the Indycar Racing
days, when I did little more than test early builds on my slow machine
and comment on the look and feel. I got out of it when they started
getting serious and wanting me to actually fill out bug reports. <g>
Just to be absolutely clear, is my wheel/pedal setup one that will work
on a PS2? If I can run RBR on a PS2 and I'm not losing anything vs. the
PC version, then I can continue to run the old sims on my old machine.
...Ron
In article <3zj_c.213264$[email hidden]>,
"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (16 lines)
> GPL and even N2003 are way behind the curve by now, so the hardware > requirements aren't insurmountable. Any CPU above 2 GHz ought to do, and a > comparable video card (a nVidia 5200 Ultra, say) should give you plenty of > eye candy. You don't need XP nor more than 512 Mb of RAM. Nforce 2 mobos > with the built-in Soundstorm chip will give you better audio than any sound > card other than an Audigy 2 ZS. > > However, you can't beat the bang-per-buck of console racers. I wrote an > article for Motor Trend identifying Sony's Gran Turismo 3 as better than > almost every PC simulation, except those from Papyrus, and GT4, out very > soon, promises to be even better (I'm "road-testing" it for Car and Driver > as we speak), plus it's now got multiplayer capabilities. All the h/w and > s/w you need for under $250 (less if you use yer USB Momo wheel). You can't > beat that. > > --Steve Smith (also a former Papyrus beta tester)Ron,
Yeah, I'm that guy, now disgraced for having spoken up for TRUTH, JUSTICE
AND THE AMER...oh, excuse me.
To be sure, console racers aren't yet where PC racers have been for some
time. The graphics aren't quite as crisp (altho the Xbox can output
peuedo-HDTV to composite in on a hybrid 'puta monitor that looks pretty
amazing), the physics is nowhere near as sophisticated as N2003, the AI is
kinda lame, and the multiplayer is limited, but consoles have fairly
engrossing game play (role-playing in straight racing games, credible
championships in rallying, and complex strategy in street racing titles).
While Gran Turismo rules the PS2, there are a bunch of Xbox games that might
fare a lot better when, as, and if the rumored Logitech Xbox wheel is
released (there's already a Logi wheel specifically developed for GT4).
MS's Forza Motorsports looks promising.
I have used several Logitech and Thrustmaster USB wheel-n-pedal setups on
the PS2, and while not all the buttons function the way they do in PC games
(you'd best leave a PS2 controller connected to the second port for use in
menu screens), the wheel and pedals themselves work as advertised in GT3,
although they were iffy with other PS2 titles (to name a few: NfS, NASCAR
Thunder, F12002, Ferrari Challenge, GP Challenge, Dirt to Daytona, World of
Outlaws, and World Rally Championship - the best rally game since Mobil 1
Rally Championship, IMO).
Good news/bad news: console games now cost 25% more than PC games (new), but
a lot of old PC games can be bought for pennies on the $.
--Steve
"Zuben el Genubi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
and a
> > comparable video card (a nVidia 5200 Ultra, say) should give you plentyof
> > eye candy. You don't need XP nor more than 512 Mb of RAM. Nforce 2mobos
> > with the built-in Soundstorm chip will give you better audio than anysound
> > card other than an Audigy 2 ZS.
> >
> > However, you can't beat the bang-per-buck of console racers. I wrote an
> > article for Motor Trend identifying Sony's Gran Turismo 3 as better than
> > almost every PC simulation, except those from Papyrus, and GT4, out very
> > soon, promises to be even better (I'm "road-testing" it for Car andDriver
> > as we speak), plus it's now got multiplayer capabilities. All the h/wand
> > s/w you need for under $250 (less if you use yer USB Momo wheel). Youcan't
> > beat that.
> >
> > --Steve Smith (also a former Papyrus beta tester)
Quoted text (19 lines)
> Thanks Steve, > > Aren't you the guy that wrote the setup guide for GPL? That makes you > much more than a beta-tester, IMO! I was back in the Indycar Racing > days, when I did little more than test early builds on my slow machine > and comment on the look and feel. I got out of it when they started > getting serious and wanting me to actually fill out bug reports. <g> > > Just to be absolutely clear, is my wheel/pedal setup one that will work > on a PS2? If I can run RBR on a PS2 and I'm not losing anything vs. the > PC version, then I can continue to run the old sims on my old machine. > > ...Ron > > In article <3zj_c.213264$[email hidden]>, > "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > GPL and even N2003 are way behind the curve by now, so the hardware > > requirements aren't insurmountable. Any CPU above 2 GHz ought to do,In article <AVn_c.8225$[email hidden]>,
"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Ron,
>
> Yeah, I'm that guy, now disgraced for having spoken up for TRUTH, JUSTICE
> AND THE AMER...oh, excuse me.
Sounds like I missed a good story, best left in the past. All I know
for sure is that I studied that guide like a textbook, read it at least
a half dozen times, and referred to it repeatedly. It enhanced my
enjoyment of the sim, as was intended. Someday I might even understand
it! ;-)
>
> To be sure, console racers aren't yet where PC racers have been for some
> time.
As it turns out, my wife is encouraging me to upgrade/replace the PC.
Upon further investigation, we discover that this uncharacteristic
behaviour on the part of my wife is due to the fact that our daughter
needs a new computer. <g> Ah well, I might as well seize the
opportunity to spend money unchallenged, eh? I've been pre-approved for
$1000 CDN.
I'm surprised no one else has offered any personal picks for racing on
the cheap. Guess I'm gonna hafta put in the time and do some more
research.
Let it be known that on Sat, 04 Sep 2004 13:19:04 GMT, Zuben el Genubi
<[email hidden]> wrote:
I currently have an Athlon XP 2400 (1.9 GHz), 512 MB RAM, and a Radeon 9200
(128MB).
I can pretty much run all modern games smoothly at 800x600. Some games I can
play at higher res, but the newest (Doom 3, Far Cry) I start having slowdowns.
Obviously GPL runs perfectly. I haven't tried RBR yet. I'd say that my setup
is currently just good enough for almost all current sims. Thus I'd suggest
you go a few
As you can probably still use your older CD drive. Most games you just install
on your hard drive, so CD speed just affects install time. On the other hand,
if you can, I would suggest getting a DVD drive. Bigger games are slowly
starting to come out on DVD.
As for memory 512 will probably get you by for now, but buy it as one chip so
you can upgrade if you need it.
So in the end, you don't need the fastest system if you are just going to be
playing racing sims. If you do get a mid range system, try to leave room for
easy upgrades (it's easier to just by a new processor, than a new processor,
motherboard, and memory).
Quoted text (9 lines)
>Need advice: Can I get away with buying a cheap box with a 2.6 or 2.8 >P4 and a good video card? I'm not concerned with wringing out cutting >edge performance, I just wanna be able to race the above-mentioned sims >well. Which mobo, which chip (P4, Celeron, AMD), what clock speed, how >much RAM, what video card? Is the Radeon 9600 still the class of the >field? What about the 9800 or the 9200? I saw a machine with Geforce4 >built into the mobo, would that be any good? Can I get away with a slow >basic CD drive? Will 512mB of RAM be enough, or will a gig be >beneficial?In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (Zuben el Genubi) wrote:
> I'm out of touch with the current "good stuff"
I've no expertise with current Intel kit, but there is some very good
value for money to be had on the AMD side of the fence, where I've been
for a few years now.
1) AMD Barton (mobile if possible) 2500+
2) Abit NF7-S v2.0
3) 512Mb pc3200 RAM (I prefer 1Gb for the extra elbow room)
4) ATI 9800Pro
5) Possible new power supply (good ones aren't cheap)
6) Some more cooling for the CPU/PC
And some notes to go with that...
1) New Barton chips are multiplier locked, but you can almost always get a
free upgrade by running the CPU at a slightly higher voltage and the
motherboard at 200MHz instead of 166, hence the specification of pc3200
ram, which is rated to run at 200MHz.
If you can get a mobile version of the Barton that's better because (a)
they run cooler at their default speed (lower voltage) and (b) the
multiplier's unlocked. That means plenty of "fun" to be had tweaking the
most out of your cheap CPU. The only possible flaw with that is that the
motherboard BIOS might need updating to recognise the mobile version. The
CPU should still run though even if not correctly identified... it just
means poking around in the BIOS to "force" the right settings.
2) The NF7-S is a mature board with a good reputation. Comes in two
flavours IIRC, one with better onboard sound and, er... something else.
Either way, a cheap but capable board now with onboard sound & LAN.
3) Getting RAM with plenty of flexibility on a particular motherboard
(different makes of RAM and motherboards all have their quirks) can be a
bit of a lottery, even with a lot of research. But at the end of the day
there isn't a *huge* difference between my system running at 250x9 and
166x13.5. The higher motherboard bandwidth is nice to have and some
benchmarks love it. But at the end of the day it's CPU MHz that matters
most. And there's a lot to be said for the reassurance of running things
at the default speeds... in which case you might prefer to blow more money
on a higher spec CPU in the Barton range. Me, I prefer to buy 2 cheap ones
and gamble with one of them :-)
4) The 9800Pro is excellent value for money now IMO. Still not cheap, but
it'll be a while before it starts to show its age (famous last words :-).
The 9600Pro is cheaper if you need to shave some $ off the budget and can
live without the stunning high res, high fsaa performance of the 9800Pro.
Despite initial doubts I didn't regret buying a second hand 9700Pro last
year. In fact I was so impressed that this year I passed that on to
someone else and invested far too much in one of the latest x800s. High
resolution with x4fsaa helps my immersion greatly in sims. It's not
essential, obviously, but it's great to have and I appear to be addicted
now ;-)
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/vga-charts-14.html isn't
a bad place to start to familiarise yourself with how all but the latest
generation of vid cards compare.
5) Cards like the 9800Pro eat power (and have an extra power connector)
and can push older, less stable PSUs into instability (random reboots or
crashes, that kind of thing). A good 300w should still be fine, but I
prefer to have something a little more capable that isn't working flat out
all the time in gaming.
6) Heat is a big issue these days. My AMD CPUs are cooled with the
relatively quiet and very capable Thermaltake Silent Boost. But these days
there are plenty of good, quiet coolers around... and plenty of really
noisy ones too if you're not careful. The only problem I have with the
Silent Boost is it can be tricky to fit (for me anyway :-)
Vid cards pump out an awful lot of heat as well. So it's important to have
a well ventilated case. I have plenty of extra fans around in my gaming
box, but a PCI slot extractor is a cheap & painless way of quietly losing
quite a bit of extra heat from a case. It can soon get a little noisy
though when you add case fans. I solved the problem by turning the old
parts I had into a quiet second PC which is now my main machine for
desktop stuff. Others go for water cooling or wear earplugs ;-)
What else? I think that'll enough to confuse you for now, don't you?
Andrew McP
On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 07:48 +0100 (BST),
[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote:
I wouldn't go with a AthlonXP nowadays, even for budget rigs. A year
ago they were unmatched in the bang-for-the-buck department, but the
price delta up to a Socket754 AMD64 system is just too small now.
The price difference between an AMD64 3000+ and a AthlonXP2500+ /w
mobo is just ~$120 tops. No amount of overclocking is going to close
the performance gap between the two.
Quoted text (16 lines)
>In article ><[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] (Zuben el Genubi) wrote: > >> I'm out of touch with the current "good stuff" > >I've no expertise with current Intel kit, but there is some very good >value for money to be had on the AMD side of the fence, where I've been >for a few years now. > >1) AMD Barton (mobile if possible) 2500+ >2) Abit NF7-S v2.0 >3) 512Mb pc3200 RAM (I prefer 1Gb for the extra elbow room) >4) ATI 9800Pro >5) Possible new power supply (good ones aren't cheap) >6) Some more cooling for the CPU/PCIn article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (Magnus Svensson) wrote:
> No amount of overclocking is going to close
> the performance gap between the two
Interesting. I was under the impression that the 64s weren't that special
(apart from any obvious difference in MHz) in most circumstances. I
obviously need to bring myself up to date.
Andrew McP
On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:01 +0100 (BST),
[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote:
Well, the short story is that AMD64:s are approximately 25% faster
clock for clock.
A rough estimate would give the AMD64 3000+ a 25-40% advantage
depending on the game. UT2003 gives a 41% advantage for instance:
http://www.materiel.be/cpu/2004cpuv2/page14.php
In french, but numerals are universal. :-)
Quoted text (9 lines)
>In article <[email hidden]>, >[email hidden] (Magnus Svensson) wrote: > >> No amount of overclocking is going to close >> the performance gap between the two > >Interesting. I was under the impression that the 64s weren't that special >(apart from any obvious difference in MHz) in most circumstances. I >obviously need to bring myself up to date.I almost always build my own 'putas, which means I get exactly what I want,
but it is a bit more expensive that way.
The cheapest way would almost certainly be to buy a slightly used (ca. 2002)
'puta from a reputable source (e.g., a friend), or shop for parts at a 'puta
flea market.
You might also find a clearance sale on a mid-level 'puta someplace like
tigerdirect.com and upgrade the video card (usually the weak link in
store-bought 'putas).
Yes, strange that more peeps haven't jumped in here with advice. There's
usually too much of a good thing....
"Zuben el Genubi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> In article <AVn_c.8225$[email hidden]>,
> "Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> > Ron,
> >
> > Yeah, I'm that guy, now disgraced for having spoken up for TRUTH,JUSTICE
Quoted text (21 lines)
> > AND THE AMER...oh, excuse me. > > Sounds like I missed a good story, best left in the past. All I know > for sure is that I studied that guide like a textbook, read it at least > a half dozen times, and referred to it repeatedly. It enhanced my > enjoyment of the sim, as was intended. Someday I might even understand > it! ;-) > > > > To be sure, console racers aren't yet where PC racers have been for some > > time. > > As it turns out, my wife is encouraging me to upgrade/replace the PC. > Upon further investigation, we discover that this uncharacteristic > behaviour on the part of my wife is due to the fact that our daughter > needs a new computer. <g> Ah well, I might as well seize the > opportunity to spend money unchallenged, eh? I've been pre-approved for > $1000 CDN. > > I'm surprised no one else has offered any personal picks for racing on > the cheap. Guess I'm gonna hafta put in the time and do some more > research.In article <dmE_c.60018$[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (Steve Smith) wrote:
> strange that more peeps haven't jumped in
> here with advice
Probably one of those situations where everyone thinks "loads of people
are bound to reply, so I won't bother". I know I was guilty of that at
first :-)
Andrew McP
By now, there are several thoughtful responses.
"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
Quoted text (12 lines)
> In article <dmE_c.60018$[email hidden]>, > [email hidden] (Steve Smith) wrote: > > > strange that more peeps haven't jumped in > > here with advice > > Probably one of those situations where everyone thinks "loads of people > are bound to reply, so I won't bother". I know I was guilty of that at > first :-) > > Andrew McP >Yes, there are, and thanks to everyone.
I found a good-looking deal at TigerDirect for an AthlonXP 3000+ with
512ram, 80g hard drive, CDRW and DVD for $500 CDN. I can add a Radeon
9800 pro and even with our insane Canadian taxes, I'll still be under
budget.
My only concern is that it has a 280 watt power supply. Is that going
to cause problems? Or for that price, should I just get another better
power supply if problems crop up?
...Ron
In article <_PF_c.213410$[email hidden]>,
"Steve Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote:
Quoted text (16 lines)
> By now, there are several thoughtful responses. > > "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > > In article <dmE_c.60018$[email hidden]>, > > [email hidden] (Steve Smith) wrote: > > > > > strange that more peeps haven't jumped in > > > here with advice > > > > Probably one of those situations where everyone thinks "loads of people > > are bound to reply, so I won't bother". I know I was guilty of that at > > first :-) > > > > Andrew McP > >Don't even THINK about overclocking it. And when you get that 9800 Pro, get
a 400W PSU.
"Zuben el Genubi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
message
people
> > > are bound to reply, so I won't bother". I know I was guilty of that at
> > > first :-)
> > >
> > > Andrew McP
> > >
