Flamin on Hawaii - Give a guy the chance to say oopps or sorry - attn traficcop

OK I want to take the time to say a few things about the flamin on Hawaii. Last night I joined a race at the Rock 5% D/ /P there was 8 or 9 of us. I qualified 4th, well on the start I jumped the green a bit (All the races I ran with a pace before it seemed everyone was doing it) well the guy behind me followed, but the front row was being REAL honest with the start I came right up and spilt them without wreckin anyone (LUCK BIG TIME!). however it stirred the whole field up and I got into a car (traficcop) just seconds latter, took out the top 3 or 4 cars. Now, I knew I screwed up, I was just pullin the mangled remains of my car out of the way and type a sincere apology, when the screen lights up "I'm gonna get you!! every time I see you I'm gonna wreck you!!" NOW HANG ON!! Now I know it was stupid, but certainly not intentional! I mean really, no one tries to wreck (esp. themselves)! Some people (traficcop) have to chill a bit! I know it gets frustrating and it costs $$ and points when a "buthead" wrecks you, but do you honestly think the butthead is happy about it? NO! It costs him the same $$ and maybe the same points (maybe more!) As far as wreckin some one to get back at them, DUHHHHH your costing yourself more $$$$ and more points which was what got you mad to start with! What I'm trying to say is try to keep a cool head after a wreck! 99.9% of the time it was an accident (weather by lack of skill or judgement) and the guy is plenty sorry. Some of us can't type 80 wpm and it takes a while to say sorry! So let the buttheads know that you know they are buttheads, but use a little class!! (ATTN TRAFICCOP) IF YOU DO INSIST ON WRECKING ME IN EVERY RACE YOU SEE ME TWO THINGS WILL HAPPEN #1 I WILL REPORT YOU TO PAPY #2 I WILL BLACKLIST YOU FOR ANY SERIES I CAN!!

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> I want to take the time to say a few things about the flamin on Hawaii. > Last night I joined a race at the Rock 5% D/ /P there was 8 or 9 of us. > I qualified 4th, well on the start I jumped the green a bit (All the races > I ran with a pace before it seemed everyone was doing it) well the guy > behind me followed, but the front row was being REAL honest with the start > I came right up and spilt them without wreckin anyone (LUCK BIG TIME!). > however it stirred the whole field up and I got into a car (traficcop) > just seconds latter, took out the top 3 or 4 cars.

From this post, it sounds like traficcop just over-reacted. He is totally justified in his anger, but just not to the extreme he seemed to be taking it to. The main problem I see here is what you admited you did wrong: jumping the green. There is ABSOLUTELY NO excuse whatsoever to jump the green flag. I don't care how the pace laps were handled in all the other races you've run in; it doesn't matter. It's up to the leader (and only the leader) of each individual race to determine the speed and timing of the start. If he descides to go 10 mph and not start accelerating until right at the S/F line, for the sake of everyone's saftey just stay in line and wait for him. If you just follow the leader, it will save everyone alot of grief. On starts (and restarts after yellows) PLEASE keep the F2 window toggled so that you can see the interval between you and the cars infront and behind you. If you had done this, you obvioulsly would have seen that the cars ahead of you were no accelerating. You then could have gotton off the gas until they started, and the whole situation could have been avoided. Bottom line, you made a bonehead move and traficcop had every right to be upset with you. He just got a little carried away. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

>What I'm trying to say is try to keep a cool head after a wreck! >99.9% of the time it was an accident (weather by lack of skill or >judgement) and the guy is plenty sorry. Some of us can't type 80 wpm and >it takes a while to say sorry! So let the buttheads know that you know >they are buttheads, but use a little class!! I completely agree. I have been a tester on the Hawaii network since Fall of 1995 and have spent over $1800 in long distance calls to the service since that time. Pretty scary. However, I have pretty much given up on Hawaii, but not because of the "idiots" always running at Talladega and crahing on the first lap. Mainly because there seemed to be no room for the average competent player. I have put thousands of dollars(hardware upgrades, software, steering controllers,etc.) and thousands of hours into all Papyrus sims. Unfortunately, I have remained an average racer. On Hawaii I always made sure I did not get into races over my head(skill level wise), and to take it easy on first lap, entering/exiting pits, letting leaders pass if being lapped, etc. But occasionally I might make an unintentional error, or become involved in someone elses unintentional error. Many times before I fininshed typing my apology(after clearing my wreck off the track, of couse!), I had been flamed unmercifully. I can take the criticism, that's fine. What I got sick of was, "I'm going to send you my phone bill", or "I' m going to tell everyone not to race you". Papyrus has a prety fair ranking system, so let them sort out the idiots that intentionally try to cause accidents.

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> > I want to take the time to say a few things about the flamin on Hawaii. > > Last night I joined a race at the Rock 5% D/ /P there was 8 or 9 of us. > > I qualified 4th, well on the start I jumped the green a bit (All the races > > I ran with a pace before it seemed everyone was doing it) well the guy > > behind me followed, but the front row was being REAL honest with the start > > I came right up and spilt them without wreckin anyone (LUCK BIG TIME!). > > however it stirred the whole field up and I got into a car (traficcop) > > just seconds latter, took out the top 3 or 4 cars. > From this post, it sounds like traficcop just over-reacted. He is > totally justified in his anger, but just not to the extreme he seemed to > be taking it to. > The main problem I see here is what you admited you did wrong: jumping > the green. There is ABSOLUTELY NO excuse whatsoever to jump the green > flag. I don't care how the pace laps were handled in all the other > races you've run in; it doesn't matter. It's up to the leader (and only > the leader) of each individual race to determine the speed and timing of > the start. If he descides to go 10 mph and not start accelerating until > right at the S/F line, for the sake of everyone's saftey just stay in > line and wait for him. If you just follow the leader, it will save > everyone alot of grief. > On starts (and restarts after yellows) PLEASE keep the F2 window toggled > so that you can see the interval between you and the cars infront and > behind you. If you had done this, you obvioulsly would have seen that > the cars ahead of you were no accelerating. You then could have gotton > off the gas until they started, and the whole situation could have been > avoided. > Bottom line, you made a bonehead move and traficcop had every right to > be upset with you. He just got a little carried away. > -- > Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences > Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ > Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

Now wait a minute, let's clarify things a little. If the green flags waving, I'm racing. If the lead car wants to stay at 10 mph, he's not gonna be the lead caar very long. On a related point, of I'm the lead car, I start accelerating as soon as the pace car starts moving over. (I leave a little room so I can do this.) I hope that this is not considered bad form, as again, I consider it racing. Bear in mind that not wrecking is always my top priority (except maybe for the last lap.) I would like to hear others opinions, especially from experienced racers. Ed Benson

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> Now wait a minute, let's clarify things a little. If the green flags > waving, I'm racing. If the lead car wants to stay at 10 mph, he's not > gonna be the lead car very long. > On a related point, of I'm the lead car, I start accelerating as soon as > the pace car starts moving over. (I leave a little room so I can do > this.) I hope that this is not considered bad form, as again, I consider > it racing. Bear in mind that not wrecking is always my top priority > (except maybe for the last lap.) > I would like to hear others opinions, especially from experienced > racers.

That situation was an exageration to make a point. The lead car should ultimately determine when and at what speed the field starts, it's not when the green flag waves. Ideally these two events should coincide, but sometimes they do not. Your best bet for racing is to keep the f2 window so that you can see when the lead car goes so you can follow suit. Use the green flag as a guide, but don't depend on it. Again, if you're the lead car it's up to you to start the field racing. If you choose to jump the start I personally don't have any problem with it. It is up to the rest of the field to notice this and follow you. This may not be the correct way, but it is the way I've seen it done most often on Hawaii and in real races. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

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>> The main problem I see here is what you admited you did wrong: jumping >> the green. There is ABSOLUTELY NO excuse whatsoever to jump the green >> flag. I don't care how the pace laps were handled in all the other >> races you've run in; it doesn't matter. It's up to the leader (and only >> the leader) of each individual race to determine the speed and timing of >> the start. If he descides to go 10 mph and not start accelerating until >> right at the S/F line, for the sake of everyone's saftey just stay in >> line and wait for him. If you just follow the leader, it will save >> everyone alot of grief. >> On starts (and restarts after yellows) PLEASE keep the F2 window toggled >> so that you can see the interval between you and the cars infront and >> behind you. If you had done this, you obvioulsly would have seen that >> the cars ahead of you were no accelerating. You then could have gotton >> off the gas until they started, and the whole situation could have been >> avoided. >> -- >> Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences >> Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ >> Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick >Now wait a minute, let's clarify things a little. If the green flags >waving, I'm racing. If the lead car wants to stay at 10 mph, he's not >gonna be the lead caar very long. >On a related point, of I'm the lead car, I start accelerating as soon as >the pace car starts moving over. (I leave a little room so I can do >this.) I hope that this is not considered bad form, as again, I consider >it racing. Bear in mind that not wrecking is always my top priority >(except maybe for the last lap.) >I would like to hear others opinions, especially from experienced >racers. >Ed Benson

What Papy needs to do is have the same rule as NASCAR... No passing on restarts until the start finish line!

racing. This is not right. On the start of a race, the flagman starts the race. When the green drops, you go, or rick being run over. The leader only starts on a re-start. Mike

>> > I want to take the time to say a few things about the flamin on Hawaii. >> > Last night I joined a race at the Rock 5% D/ /P there was 8 or 9 of us. >> > I qualified 4th, well on the start I jumped the green a bit (All the races >> > I ran with a pace before it seemed everyone was doing it) well the guy >> > behind me followed, but the front row was being REAL honest with the start >> > I came right up and spilt them without wreckin anyone (LUCK BIG TIME!). >> > however it stirred the whole field up and I got into a car (traficcop) >> > just seconds latter, took out the top 3 or 4 cars. >> From this post, it sounds like traficcop just over-reacted. He is >> totally justified in his anger, but just not to the extreme he seemed to >> be taking it to. >> The main problem I see here is what you admited you did wrong: jumping >> the green. There is ABSOLUTELY NO excuse whatsoever to jump the green >> flag. I don't care how the pace laps were handled in all the other >> races you've run in; it doesn't matter. It's up to the leader (and only >> the leader) of each individual race to determine the speed and timing of >> the start. If he descides to go 10 mph and not start accelerating until >> right at the S/F line, for the sake of everyone's saftey just stay in >> line and wait for him. If you just follow the leader, it will save >> everyone alot of grief. >> On starts (and restarts after yellows) PLEASE keep the F2 window toggled >> so that you can see the interval between you and the cars infront and >> behind you. If you had done this, you obvioulsly would have seen that >> the cars ahead of you were no accelerating. You then could have gotton >> off the gas until they started, and the whole situation could have been >> avoided. >> Bottom line, you made a bonehead move and traficcop had every right to

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>> be upset with you. He just got a little carried away. >> -- >> Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences >> Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ >> Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick >Now wait a minute, let's clarify things a little. If the green flags >waving, I'm racing. If the lead car wants to stay at 10 mph, he's not >gonna be the lead caar very long. >On a related point, of I'm the lead car, I start accelerating as soon

as >the pace car starts moving over. (I leave a little room so I can do >this.) I hope that this is not considered bad form, as again, I consider >it racing. Bear in mind that not wrecking is always my top priority >(except maybe for the last lap.) >I would like to hear others opinions, especially from experienced >racers. >Ed Benson I aggree. At the start of the race, the flagman starts the race. If the green drops, the race is on. Only on re-starts does the leader start the race. This is the way it is in most oval racing series. If the leader sits after the green, he is meat. Mike

> I aggree. At the start of the race, the flagman starts the race. If the > green drops, the race is on. Only on re-starts does the leader start > the race. This is the way it is in most oval racing series. If the > leader sits after the green, he is meat. I agree too, but the problem is that then people will start to pass coming out of turn 3, before the S/F line. By waiting on the leader to lead the pack to the S/F line, you end up with a much more realisic and safe start. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

> This is not right. On the start of a race, the flagman starts the race. > When the green drops, you go, or rick being run over. The leader only > starts on a re-start. Yes he does, but there is no passing before the S/F line. The only way to make sure this is the case is to follow the leader's speed and timing. Otherwise people will start setting up in turn 3-4 to make a pass on the front straight. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

My question is: What good does chatting do in Hawaii? Why doesn't Papyrus just eliminate the chat feature from races in Hawaii? It might make people a bit less timid. Pants Pants Pants Pants Pants Pants Pants Pants Pants Pants Pants Pants

>My question is: What good does chatting do in Hawaii? Why doesn't >Papyrus just eliminate the chat feature from races in Hawaii? It might >make people a bit less timid. There are good reasons to keep the in-race chat. Since you can't wave your hands in the car, use it to warn other drivers that you're pitting or to set up passing situations when the lead cars overtake slower cars. In series races, the series director can communicate last minute instructions to drivers. Like any communication channel, chat is subject to abuse, but eliminating chat isn't going to eliminate the anti-social behavior of certain drivers. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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>Now wait a minute, let's clarify things a little. If the green flags >waving, I'm racing. If the lead car wants to stay at 10 mph, he's not >gonna be the lead caar very long. >On a related point, of I'm the lead car, I start accelerating as soon as >the pace car starts moving over. (I leave a little room so I can do >this.) I hope that this is not considered bad form, as again, I consider >it racing. Bear in mind that not wrecking is always my top priority >(except maybe for the last lap.) >I would like to hear others opinions, especially from experienced >racers. >Ed Benson

Ed......Do you ever see the guys in Winston Cup "hanging back a little and going with the pace car"? A reminder....in Winston (and I have to assume this is also the rule that the NRL will use), passing another driver to the left side prior to the s/f line on any start or restart is grounds for a black flag. If everyone goes by the same theory, there will be alot less ***like you described. Bottom line....go when the leader goes. _______________________________________ Tim Wortman NASS '96 Series Director Visit the NASS '96 home page http://www.webcom.com/twortman/nasscar/ _______________________________________

I also agree currently I am ranked a 10. only been on there since may so thats not bad. I am in a league and race real clean. Im the one that will give more than enogh room while being passed but get no room while im passing. Ive raced many races there and it seems a couple of drivers were complainig about the way I drive. comments like how did you become a 10. well i earned it. just because i slip every now and then does not mean i suck. i cant help it if coming out of 2 on last lap at dega i try to pass on inside but people dont give me room they keep pushing expecting me to drive my line in the grass. down the bstreach. then we both wreck in t3 well i get the blame. im sorry but in all the races ive ever seen on tv. when a guy gets under you you dont push him into grass . I mean when i get the white flag its time to race. i might hang it out a little but im not going to wreck you onpurpose. id rather be 2nd then last. but im also not going to let you win if i think i can pass you then i will try. oh well let the system do the work....

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><snipped> > i cant help it if coming out of 2 on last lap at dega i try >to pass on inside but people dont give me room they keep pushing >expecting me to drive my line in the grass. down the bstreach. then we >both wreck in t3 well i get the blame. im sorry but in all the races ive >ever seen on tv. when a guy gets under you you dont push him into grass >. I mean when i get the white flag its time to race. i might hang it out >a little but im not going to wreck you onpurpose. id rather be 2nd then >last. but im also not going to let you win if i think i can pass you >then i will try. oh well let the system do the work....

I assume you are talking about passing to the left of the white line on the backstretch. The possible problem with this is, can you hold the line thru T3 without coming up on the car to your outside? From what I have witnessed, probably not. I had this happen last night. Last lap and he gets under me on the backstretch (he is on the apron on the left side of the white line). I am just right of the white line. We enter T3 side by side. I stay just above the white line. He can't keep his car down in T3 because of the poor entry angle and comes up and tags me. Who's wrong? Who should back off? IMO, I have the preferred line. I gave him the entire apron to work with and feel that it is his responsibility to hold HIS line. After all, he chose that line not I. What do ya'll think? -------------- Michael Kirton

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>> Now wait a minute, let's clarify things a little. If the green flags >> waving, I'm racing. If the lead car wants to stay at 10 mph, he's not >> gonna be the lead car very long. >> On a related point, of I'm the lead car, I start accelerating as soon as >> the pace car starts moving over. (I leave a little room so I can do >> this.) I hope that this is not considered bad form, as again, I consider >> it racing. Bear in mind that not wrecking is always my top priority >> (except maybe for the last lap.) >> I would like to hear others opinions, especially from experienced >> racers. >That situation was an exageration to make a point. The lead car should >ultimately determine when and at what speed the field starts, it's not >when the green flag waves. Ideally these two events should coincide, >but sometimes they do not. Your best bet for racing is to keep the f2 >window so that you can see when the lead car goes so you can follow >suit. Use the green flag as a guide, but don't depend on it. >Again, if you're the lead car it's up to you to start the field racing. >If you choose to jump the start I personally don't have any problem with >it. It is up to the rest of the field to notice this and follow you. >This may not be the correct way, but it is the way I've seen it done >most often on Hawaii and in real races. >-- >Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences >Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ >Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

I used to put myself right on top of the pace car when I got the pole. However, there is currently a bug on Hawaii where sometimes you don't get the flags right away. The pace car will drop off, but occasionally you won't get the green flag, sometimes for several laps. The first time this happened I was afraid I was going to be black-flagged for passing the pace car, so I checked up, not realizing that everyone else in the field had received the green flag and was now bearing down on me at full throttle. Big mess! To compensate, I now give the pace car about a 10 car lead. That way when it drops off, I know I can safely accelerate, even if the green flag isn't waving. The rest of the field is obligated to stay behind the pole sitter, so this is really not unfair to anyone. This is how real races are started, the pole sitter has the option of bringing the field up at whatever speed he or she wants. Sometimes, the pole sitter will check up just before hitting the throttle to get a jump on the rest of the field. This is NOT a good idea on Hawaii, however. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

Kirton) writes: >><snipped> >> i cant help it if coming out of 2 on last lap at dega i try >>to pass on inside but people dont give me room they keep pushing >>expecting me to drive my line in the grass. down the bstreach. then we >>both wreck in t3 well i get the blame. im sorry but in all the races ive >>ever seen on tv. when a guy gets under you you dont push him into grass >>. I mean when i get the white flag its time to race. i might hang it out >>a little but im not going to wreck you onpurpose. id rather be 2nd then

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>>last. but im also not going to let you win if i think i can pass you >>then i will try. oh well let the system do the work.... >I assume you are talking about passing to the left of the white line >on the backstretch. The possible problem with this is, can you hold >the line thru T3 without coming up on the car to your outside? From >what I have witnessed, probably not. I had this happen last night. >Last lap and he gets under me on the backstretch (he is on the apron >on the left side of the white line). I am just right of the white >line. We enter T3 side by side. I stay just above the white line. He >can't keep his car down in T3 because of the poor entry angle and >comes up and tags me. Who's wrong? Who should back off? IMO, I have >the preferred line. I gave him the entire apron to work with and feel >that it is his responsibility to hold HIS line. After all, he chose >that line not I. What do ya'll think? >-------------- >Michael Kirton

I think you should have given him room to run, instead of running him below the line. Mike

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>>I assume you are talking about passing to the left of the white line >>on the backstretch. The possible problem with this is, can you hold >>the line thru T3 without coming up on the car to your outside? From >>what I have witnessed, probably not. I had this happen last night. >>Last lap and he gets under me on the backstretch (he is on the apron >>on the left side of the white line). I am just right of the white >>line. We enter T3 side by side. I stay just above the white line. He >>can't keep his car down in T3 because of the poor entry angle and >>comes up and tags me. Who's wrong? Who should back off? IMO, I have >>the preferred line. I gave him the entire apron to work with and feel >>that it is his responsibility to hold HIS line. After all, he chose >>that line not I. What do ya'll think? >>-------------- >>Michael Kirton >I think you should have given him room to run, instead of running him >below the line. >Mike

But I didnt run him below the line. He moved to the left of the white line on the backstretch and drafted up beside me on my inside. I was just to the right of the white line and held that line all the way down the backstretch. When we got to T3 I was slightly ahead of him. I gave him the entire apron, which is where he chose to drive, and he couldnt hold his car down and came up and tagged me. This is no big deal. I just wanted to see how other folks would handle this situation. -------------- Michael Kirton

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>I used to put myself right on top of the pace car when I got the pole. >However, there is currently a bug on Hawaii where sometimes you don't get >the flags right away. The pace car will drop off, but occasionally you >won't get the green flag, sometimes for several laps. The first time this >happened I was afraid I was going to be black-flagged for passing the pace >car, so I checked up, not realizing that everyone else in the field had >received the green flag and was now bearing down on me at full throttle. >Big mess! >To compensate, I now give the pace car about a 10 car lead. That way when >it drops off, I know I can safely accelerate, even if the green flag isn't >waving. The rest of the field is obligated to stay behind the pole sitter, >so this is really not unfair to anyone. >This is how real races are started, the pole sitter has the option of >bringing the field up at whatever speed he or she wants. Sometimes, the >pole sitter will check up just before hitting the throttle to get a jump on >the rest of the field. This is NOT a good idea on Hawaii, however. >Dave "davids" Sparks >Sequoia Motorsports

Dave, you are exactly correct. -------------- Michael Kirton

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> >But I didnt run him below the line. He moved to the left of the white > >line on the backstretch and drafted up beside me on my inside. I was > >just to the right of the white line and held that line all the way > >down the backstretch. When we got to T3 I was slightly ahead of him. > >I gave him the entire apron, which is where he chose to drive, and he > >couldnt hold his car down and came up and tagged me. This is no big > >deal. I just wanted to see how other folks would handle this > >situation. > I agree with you. You were driving the prefered line versus his "passing > attempt" line on the apron. If he and/or his setup was unable to hold his > line than he should yield. However, that's my opinion. When people go > into a turn three wide or even side by side "someone's gotta give." > There's no clear cut rule who "someone" is. And the relatively low > consequence of crashing in simulated racing only contributes to the > difficulty in picking who that "someone" is. > Oh... the philosophy of racin' > Craig

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Winston, isn't illegal to go below the white line? If so, you should give him no room at all, you held your inside line all the way down, you didn't slam the door, if he wants around you he has to go high. Just my opinion, but I like to keep ot as close to reality as possible, I even do it in single and multi. Mike

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>><snipped> >> i cant help it if coming out of 2 on last lap at dega i try >>to pass on inside but people dont give me room they keep pushing >>expecting me to drive my line in the grass. down the bstreach. then >>we both wreck in t3 well i get the blame. im sorry but in all the >>races ive ever seen on tv. when a guy gets under you you dont push >>him into grass I mean when i get the white flag its time to race. i >>might hang it out a little but im not going to wreck you onpurpose. >>rather be 2nd then last. but im also not going to let you win if i >>think i can pass you then i will try. oh well let the system do the >>work.... > I assume you are talking about passing to the left of the white line > on the backstretch. The possible problem with this is, can you hold > the line thru T3 without coming up on the car to your outside? From > what I have witnessed, probably not. I had this happen last night. > Last lap and he gets under me on the backstretch (he is on the apron > on the left side of the white line). I am just right of the white > line. We enter T3 side by side. I stay just above the white line. He > can't keep his car down in T3 because of the poor entry angle and > comes up and tags me. Who's wrong? Who should back off? IMO, I have > the preferred line. I gave him the entire apron to work with and feel > that it is his responsibility to hold HIS line. After all, he chose > that line not I. What do ya'll think?

I agree that if a guy can't hold his line it's his responsibility to back off rather than cause a wreck. I would rather come in 2nd than wreck the leader to get a win (not that I've never made a mistake, you know how warping can be). The other side of this issue: At Dega on Hawaii slightly faster cars cannot pass on the outside with the exception of TESTER01. If a driver consistantly hugs the solid line after turn 2 lap after lap, he is blocking excessively. In the real racing world if a guy leaves you no room to pass like that he is asking for a dent in his left rear quarter. The bottom line is if you don't try crazy passing and you don't block too much racing is going to be better for everyone IMO. Mike Radler

I agree with you. You were driving the prefered line versus his "passing attempt" line on the apron. If he and/or his setup was unable to hold his line than he should yield. However, that's my opinion. When people go into a turn three wide or even side by side "someone's gotta give." There's no clear cut rule who "someone" is. And the relatively low consequence of crashing in simulated racing only contributes to the difficulty in picking who that "someone" is. Oh... the philosophy of racin' Craig

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>I used to put myself right on top of the pace car when I got the pole. >However, there is currently a bug on Hawaii where sometimes you don't get >the flags right away. The pace car will drop off, but occasionally you >won't get the green flag, sometimes for several laps. The first time this >happened I was afraid I was going to be black-flagged for passing the pace >car, so I checked up, not realizing that everyone else in the field had >received the green flag and was now bearing down on me at full throttle. >Big mess!

We're trying to track this problem down, but it looks like we will need to do some coordinated testing with a debugging version of MULTI.EXE, as the information we're logging at Papyrus isn't sufficient to identify where the packet dropout is happening. It appears likely this bug is at least aggravated by quality of modem connection, so we're likely to be contacting individuals who seem to repeatedly get delayed flags or miss spotter messages etc, so that we can send them a special debugging version of MULTI.EXE and get back logging information when the bug occurs. As usual, if anyone is experiencing this bug, they're welcome to send me email (my inbox is a bit full, so I may not reply as quickly as I'd to ... ) BTW - if you're on the lead and don't see the green fly, but you're certain the pace car has passed the green threshhold, you won't get black flagged if you punch the throttle. The black flag timing is managed by the server, so even though you haven't seen the flag, the server has and that's where it counts. Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group

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>>I think you should have given him room to run, instead of running him >>below the line. >>Mike >But I didnt run him below the line. He moved to the left of the white >line on the backstretch and drafted up beside me on my inside. I was >just to the right of the white line and held that line all the way >down the backstretch. When we got to T3 I was slightly ahead of him. >I gave him the entire apron, which is where he chose to drive, and he >couldnt hold his car down and came up and tagged me. This is no big >deal. I just wanted to see how other folks would handle this >situation. >-------------- >Michael Kirton

Sorry Mike, I understand your position, but it sounds more like a game of chicken. When it became obvious that he was not going to ease in BEHIND you, the prudent thing to do would be to move up and give him the room he would need to keep from hitting YOU. Approaching a possible wreck like a lawyer (whose fault WILL it be) usually means that you won't finish. My approach would have been to accept that he was along side and move up to a position that would have been safer for both of us. Then assess what the situation is as we approach the next turn, before the tri-oval, where he will probably go ahead of me. I would maybe lose the spot but still be alive for another lap. Hopefully some of these problems will be corrected in NR2. CYA on Track, MLang

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>>I think you should have given him room to run, instead of running him >>below the line. >>Mike >But I didnt run him below the line. He moved to the left of the white >line on the backstretch and drafted up beside me on my inside. I was >just to the right of the white line and held that line all the way >down the backstretch. When we got to T3 I was slightly ahead of him. >I gave him the entire apron, which is where he chose to drive, and he >couldnt hold his car down and came up and tagged me. This is no big >deal. I just wanted to see how other folks would handle this >situation. >-------------- >Michael Kirton

Well, if you want to finish the race, it's generally a better idea to back out. The problems arise when neither driver is willing to back out and you both end up fighting for the same bit of real estate. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

<snip> Whatever happened to a gentle nudge with the chrome horn? ;) They're not bugs! They're random features!

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> Sorry Mike, > I understand your position, but it sounds more like a game of >chicken. When it became obvious that he was not going to ease in BEHIND >you, the prudent thing to do would be to move up and give him the room >he would need to keep from hitting YOU. > Approaching a possible wreck like a lawyer (whose fault WILL it be) >usually means that you won't finish. > My approach would have been to accept that he was along side and >move up to a position that would have been safer for both of us. Then >assess what the situation is as we approach the next turn, before the >tri-oval, where he will probably go ahead of me. I would maybe lose the >spot but still be alive for another lap.

YES! YES! It's so good to know that there are other sane drivers on Hawaii. This is exactly the kind of mentality I've been cultivating in my league. If you mean the apron and the tri-oval at Talladega, I'm with you. But there are always going to be situations where at least one driver is going to have to yield to prevent a wreck and there's nothing Papyrus can do about that, other than making the penalty for wrecking more severe. There's a new league forming on Hawaii where you will be required to purchase replacement parts for your car out of your prize money. I think this is a great idea, although I haven't figured out exactly how to implement it, replays are just not good enough to get accurate information about car damage. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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> > >But I didnt run him below the line. He moved to the left of the white > > >line on the backstretch and drafted up beside me on my inside. I was > > >just to the right of the white line and held that line all the way > > >down the backstretch. When we got to T3 I was slightly ahead of him. > > >I gave him the entire apron, which is where he chose to drive, and he > > >couldnt hold his car down and came up and tagged me. This is no big > > >deal. I just wanted to see how other folks would handle this > > >situation. > > I agree with you. You were driving the prefered line versus his "passing > > attempt" line on the apron. If he and/or his setup was unable to hold his > > line than he should yield. However, that's my opinion. When people go > > into a turn three wide or even side by side "someone's gotta give." > > There's no clear cut rule who "someone" is. And the relatively low > > consequence of crashing in simulated racing only contributes to the > > difficulty in picking who that "someone" is. > > Oh... the philosophy of racin' > > Craig > Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Winston, isn't illegal to go below the > white line? If so, you should give him no room at all, you held your > inside line all the way down, you didn't slam the door, if he wants > around you he has to go high. Just my opinion, but I like to keep ot as > close to reality as possible, I even do it in single and multi.

You can run on the grass if you want to. Its just that most guys have their roof flaps up while trying it. Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA

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>>>I assume you are talking about passing to the left of the white line >>>on the backstretch. The possible problem with this is, can you hold >>>the line thru T3 without coming up on the car to your outside? From >>>what I have witnessed, probably not. I had this happen last night. >>>Last lap and he gets under me on the backstretch (he is on the apron >>>on the left side of the white line). I am just right of the white >>>line. We enter T3 side by side. I stay just above the white line. He >>>can't keep his car down in T3 because of the poor entry angle and >>>comes up and tags me. Who's wrong? Who should back off? IMO, I have >>>the preferred line. I gave him the entire apron to work with and feel >>>that it is his responsibility to hold HIS line. After all, he chose >>>that line not I. What do ya'll think? >>>-------------- >>>Michael Kirton >>I think you should have given him room to run, instead of running him >>below the line. >>Mike >But I didnt run him below the line. He moved to the left of the white >line on the backstretch and drafted up beside me on my inside. I was >just to the right of the white line and held that line all the way >down the backstretch. When we got to T3 I was slightly ahead of him. >I gave him the entire apron, which is where he chose to drive, and he >couldnt hold his car down and came up and tagged me. This is no big >deal. I just wanted to see how other folks would handle this >situation. >-------------- >Michael Kirton

Mike, I think you were right on this one. You had your preferred line, therefore YOU determine whether you want to give it up or not. You may choose (to be nice or make it a more finish) to move up the groove, but it isn't mandatory that you do so. You're ahead of the other guy, you're in your preferred line - therefore, it's up to the guy behind you to go around you and be able to hold his line doing so. If he decides pass a lead car (and driving on the apron is an illegal move which would result in a black flag in NASCAR!), he is obligated to hold his line on the pass. I see a ton of these types of messages here from people who start an aggressive pass, in a bad line and then expect everyone to move over for them because THEY can't hold their line. It doesn't work that way and in real life if a passer took out a passee doing a stupid move like that which resulted in taking out the passee, he'd have his ass kicked all over the garage, after the race. That ain't racin', it's rookie behavior at the least, stupidity at the most. --- Frank ---

>>>>can't keep his car down in T3 because of the poor entry angle and >>>>comes up and tags me. Who's wrong? Who should back off? IMO, I have >>>>the preferred line. I gave him the entire apron to work with and feel

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>>>>that it is his responsibility to hold HIS line. After all, he chose >>>>that line not I. What do ya'll think? >>>>-------------- >>>>Michael Kirton >>>I think you should have given him room to run, instead of running

him

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>>>below the line. >>>Mike >>But I didnt run him below the line. He moved to the left of the white >>line on the backstretch and drafted up beside me on my inside. I was >>just to the right of the white line and held that line all the way >>down the backstretch. When we got to T3 I was slightly ahead of him. >>I gave him the entire apron, which is where he chose to drive, and he >>couldnt hold his car down and came up and tagged me. This is no big >>deal. I just wanted to see how other folks would handle this >>situation. >>-------------- >>Michael Kirton >Mike, >I think you were right on this one. You had your preferred line,

therefore YOU >determine whether you want to give it up or not. You may choose (to >be nice or >make it a more finish) to move up the groove, but it isn't mandatory that you do >so. You're ahead of the other guy, you're in your preferred line - therefore, >it's up to the guy behind you to go around you and be able to hold his line >doing so. If he decides pass a lead car (and driving on the apron is an illegal >move which would result in a black flag in NASCAR!), he is obligated to hold his >line on the pass. >I see a ton of these types of messages here from people who start an aggressive >pass, in a bad line and then expect everyone to move over for them because THEY >can't hold their line. It doesn't work that way and in real life if a passer >took out a passee doing a stupid move like that which resulted in taking out the >passee, he'd have his ass kicked all over the garage, after the race. That >ain't racin', it's rookie behavior at the least, stupidity at the most. >--- Frank --- These are all swell arguments and would work quite well in a courtroom, but they usually occur in the after-race chat room between two or more drivers that have crashed out. One of those guys is right and one is probably wrong. They are both out of the race. The wrong driver is wrong. The right driver is stubborn, but after all he is right! The combination of all this righteous attitude may also trigger a massive wreck taking out more innocent drivers. racer 1 is wrong, racer 2 is not racing smart! MLang

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>>>>>can't keep his car down in T3 because of the poor entry angle and >>>>>comes up and tags me. Who's wrong? Who should back off? IMO, I have >>>>>the preferred line. I gave him the entire apron to work with and >feel >>>>>that it is his responsibility to hold HIS line. After all, he chose >>>>>that line not I. What do ya'll think? >>>>>-------------- >>>>>Michael Kirton >>>>I think you should have given him room to run, instead of running >him >>>>below the line. >>>>Mike >>>But I didnt run him below the line. He moved to the left of the white >>>line on the backstretch and drafted up beside me on my inside. I was >>>just to the right of the white line and held that line all the way >>>down the backstretch. When we got to T3 I was slightly ahead of him. >>>I gave him the entire apron, which is where he chose to drive, and he >>>couldnt hold his car down and came up and tagged me. This is no big >>>deal. I just wanted to see how other folks would handle this >>>situation. >>>-------------- >>>Michael Kirton

Well since my original post I have faced the same situation a few more times. I have found that the smartest thing to do is to give up the line. Usually I get back around him when he tries it on someone else and crashes. That is, if I can avoid the spinning cars<g> -------------- Michael Kirton

Wrong. The flagman gives the signal at the start AND every restart. The only thing the leader does is keep the rest of the field "in tow" after the pace car drops off. If the leader were to accellerate way before the flagman waves green, the flagman CAN call a restart and they will have to go around and get back in line, no matter what lap it is. No one can pass the leader until the flagman waves green. Cheers! -- ??Jan Kohl?? ***Diamond Motorsports*** Computer Systems Programmer, USAF Air Ground Operations School, Hurlburt Field, Fl <<http://www.arc.net/users/jkohl/>> US Mirror of "The Pits" <<http://www.arc.net/users/jkohl/thepits/>>

On Thursday, July 11, 1996, "Eric T. Busch" wrote... > > This is not right. On the start of a race, the flagman starts the race.

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> > When the green drops, you go, or rick being run over. The leader only > > starts on a re-start. > Yes he does, but there is no passing before the S/F line. The only way > to make sure this is the case is to follow the leader's speed and > timing. Otherwise people will start setting up in turn 3-4 to make a > pass on the front straight. > -- > Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences > Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ > Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

Wrong. You can pass before the s/f line, but only to the right. Cheers! -- ??Jan Kohl?? ***Diamond Motorsports*** Computer Systems Programmer, USAF Air Ground Operations School, Hurlburt Field, Fl <<http://www.arc.net/users/jkohl/>> US Mirror of "The Pits" <<http://www.arc.net/users/jkohl/thepits/>>

Hey Papyrus, These posts gave me an idea....Is there a possibility of adding "rumble strips" below the white line in NASCAR 2 so that this wouldn't happen ? -

> Wrong. You can pass before the s/f line, but only to the right. I stand corrected, but how many times have you actually seen cars pass on the right on the start while on Hawaii? I can't remember ever seeing anyone take this strategy. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

The most important race strategy is to finish...... brian

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>Mike, >I think you were right on this one. You had your preferred line, therefore >YOU >determine whether you want to give it up or not. You may choose (to be >nice or >make it a more finish) to move up the groove, but it isn't mandatory that >you do >so. You're ahead of the other guy, you're in your preferred line - >therefore, >it's up to the guy behind you to go around you and be able to hold his line >doing so. If he decides pass a lead car (and driving on the apron is an >illegal >move which would result in a black flag in NASCAR!), he is obligated to >hold his >line on the pass. >I see a ton of these types of messages here from people who start an >aggressive >pass, in a bad line and then expect everyone to move over for them because >THEY >can't hold their line. It doesn't work that way and in real life if a >passer >took out a passee doing a stupid move like that which resulted in taking >out the >passee, he'd have his ass kicked all over the garage, after the race. That >ain't racin', it's rookie behavior at the least, stupidity at the most. >--- Frank ---

Would you rather be right or finish the race? The smart thing to do is give up the line. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports