ICR2/Win95 Performance Issues (from Papyrus engineer)

Hello, I've seen some fairly bad comments here in this ng regarding performance of ICR2 for Win95.... most lead me to believe that it's a problem with your setup, rather then the game itself. Overall, the game will have a lower framerate then the DOS version, but only by about 1-3fps... If you are getting worse performance then this, then something else is up. Following are possible reason/solutions: 1) Too much paging is taking place, which causes pauses in the game. To reduce paging to it's minimum, DO NOT RUN ANY OTHER APPS OTHER THEN ICR2. If you run other apps, Win95 will give them some processing time which can causes pauses and paging. There is also a problem w/ performance for those systems which have dial-up networking setup. Even if you are not connected to a service, dial-up networking will poll your system every several minutes (poll what, I don't know...) which will cause a slight delay in game play. Also, decreasing your replay size will help minimize your paging. You should have your replay set somewhere in the green zone, the smaller the better... And I can not stress enough about closing all other apps before running ICR2... 2) Frame rate is poor. It's possible that the microsoft DirectX drivers installed are not the best for your video card. Check to see if your video card manufacture produces their own DirectX drivers. If so, use them. If performance is still poor, you can turn DirectDraw off via the Options/Graphics/Adv Graphics dialog box. You can also turn DirectSound off in a similar way via the Options/Sound dialog box. 3) Make sure you have enough free disk space for your swap file. If you don't, then you'll run out of virtual memory and Win95 doesn't run very well w/o it!!! I'd say you'd want at least 100MB of free disk space available for your swap file. 4) There is a known pause in the game, about 1 minute or so into racing. This is Win95 behavior and can't be helped. This should be the only noticeable pause in the game. Here at Papyrus, the Win95 version had a lot of testing. You should expect a very playable game, with the only drawback of a slightly slower frame rate (1-3fps) and that 1 pause mentioned above. If you are getting worse performance, then something else is going on... For best performance, you should have a P60 min, 16MB ram min, and DirectX drivers supplied by your video card manufacturer. Most of the above hints can be found in the release notes file, README.DOC, included with the CD. (which may also contain other interesting things...) Hope you have fun! /scott -- Scott Marison, Software Engineer Sierra On-Line/Papyrus Division

Oh, one more thing... the Win95/Mac versions of ICR2 do not have improved graphics/sounds/engine/etc... This is ICR2, not ICR3. The Win95/Mac versions do have a new UI and take advantage of features that Win95/Mac have (printing, better paintshop, etc.) but the basic game is still the same... just wanted to make this clear as there seemed to be some confusion on this issue. /scott -- Scott Marison, Software Engineer Sierra On-Line/Papyrus Division

[suggestions deleted] Well, I don't have ICR2 yet, but I do run the Win95 versions of Mech2 and Warbirds, and have played around a (very) little with the SDK, so I have some experience with DirectDraw apps. For me, the biggest cause of delays during a DDraw game (every 2-3 seconds), are CD-Rom reads. I have 2 CD-Roms, and I'm often playing an Audio CD in one of them. Any time my system hits the CD (reading at the hardware interrupt level, it seems), DirectDraw freezes for just a moment. Two possible fixes: 1) make sure you're not running any CD audio apps like CD-Player or FlexiCD 2) disable Auto-Insert notifications for CD-Roms from the "System" applet in the control panel I've gotten away without doing #2, but others have had to. Hope this helps, John

<<There is also a problem w/ performance for those systems which have dial-up networking setup. Even if you are not connected to a service, dial-up networking will poll your system every several minutes (poll what, I don't know...) which will cause a slight delay in game play.>> Uhhhh... wouldn't that be pretty much all of us here? Except for those here posting from Online Services, those of us using ISP's do just that... dial into a network. Why weren't we made aware of this issue before? After all... it's one thing we almost *all* have in common. This is just getting from bad to worse... Nick ____________________________________________________________________ #6 (will he be #28 in '97?) and #94 in the *real* quest for the Cup! My home away from home... http://www.mindspring.com/~ntotoro/ ____________________________________________________________________

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>Hello, >I've seen some fairly bad comments here in this ng regarding >performance of ICR2 for Win95.... most lead me to believe that >it's a problem with your setup, rather then the game itself. >Overall, the game will have a lower framerate then the DOS >version, but only by about 1-3fps... If you are getting worse >performance then this, then something else is up. Following are >possible reason/solutions:

Scott, Thanks for the tips. I re-installed WIn95 from scratch read not over an existing installation on a P133 with 24 Meg of RAM, a PCI Diamond Stealth Video 2 Meg VRAM, a Thrusty ACM card, a T2 and a Soundblaster AWE32. All pretty standard equipment. I feel pretty hopeful that you guys tested this same combination because again, these are VERY common boards. I tried the S3 drivers, the default ones that came with DirectX and the Diamond GT drivers, as well as the latest SB drivers. The Win95 version is STILL unacceptably choppy, beyond even what the frame rate counter shows, but worse yet is the lags in the control. Rick Genter suggested to me that the DirectInput stuff is less than optimal. Can you shed any light on this and what might be done about it? Would it be fair to say there will really be no relief until the Rendition version comes out? Randy >-- >Scott Marison, Software Engineer >Sierra On-Line/Papyrus Division

> Hello, > I've seen some fairly bad comments here in this ng regarding > performance of ICR2 for Win95.... most lead me to believe that > it's a problem with your setup, rather then the game itself. How about some performance tips for Mac? So far, I'm pretty happy with the sim, afterall, we've never had anything like this before, but some people who've also raced the DOS version suggest things could be a lot better. I'm running a 7200/90, 32 Megs RAM, 256K L2 cache, 1 Meg VRAM and the sim runs pretty smooth in low res with all details on, but slows down considerably in high res unless I turn everything off, and I like watching the trees whip by at Road America.:-> mario.

> Uhhhh... wouldn't that be pretty much all of us here? Except for >those here posting from Online Services, those of us using ISP's do just >that... dial into a network. Why weren't we made aware of this issue >before? Probably because we did not become aware of this issue till fairly late in the game and because there isn't much we can do about it... Dial-up networking is a Microsoft product... all we can do is warn users that they can expect delays every several minutes or so if they've got dial-up networking enabled. /scott -- Scott Marison, Software Engineer Sierra On-Line/Papyrus Division

: Oh, one more thing... the Win95/Mac versions of ICR2 do : not have improved graphics/sounds/engine/etc... Did the problem ATI Mach64 video card owners ever get fixed with univbe? Does the DOS version still need to load univbe itself or can it benefit from one loaded outside of the game? The one reason I was looking foward to the Win96 version was that my frame rate problems (I have an ATI Mach64) would get better. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

: Uhhhh... wouldn't that be pretty much all of us here? Except for : those here posting from Online Services, those of us using ISP's do just : that... dial into a network. Why weren't we made aware of this issue : before? After all... it's one thing we almost *all* have in common. This : is just getting from bad to worse... : Nick I haven't looked into it yet, and am not sure it's possible... Can one setup Win95 with multiple users where on setup doesn't load the network stuff? I am afraid that this may not be possible, since this stuff loads before the user logs in. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>The Win95 version is STILL unacceptably choppy, beyond even what the >frame rate counter shows, but worse yet is the lags in the control. >Rick Genter suggested to me that the DirectInput stuff is less than >optimal. Can you shed any light on this and what might be done about >it? choppy and frame rate may not be the same... if you get a frame rate of 30, and experience much paging, then it'll be choppy (but the frame rate will be 30)... The frame rate number is the frame rate. Choppy behavior due to paging is a different matter. For your choppiness... how often? and is it going to the hard disk during these events? set the replay size to the min... make sure no other apps are running... I don't know what else to say. I have a P133 in work, 32 MB, and with all details on I get around 15fps avg. and I feel it's very playable... Perhaps some of this is a matter of you being use to the DOS version, while I started playing the Win95 version first... so some of the choppiness you describe just isn't very noticible to me. The delay in control input, I'm not sure about... We've never had a comment like that from testing, either. (don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you aren't experiencing it, rather I just don't have any idea on that...) Rick's thoughts may be correct... i dunno. well - i dunno... it seems most of the complaints are related to choppiness due to paging or other Win95 activities... I don't honestly know how the renditiion version would improve upon that... /scott -- Scott Marison, Software Engineer Sierra On-Line/Papyrus Division

>choppy and frame rate may not be the same... That's what I was thinking. If I have 24 Megs of RAM and Indy is the only app running, how much paging should there be on Lap 1 of a Preseason Test?! Not that I've noticed....Its hard to quantify...it just doesn't *look* like its running at the indicated frame rate...just choppy... What video board are you using? What sound card? Well, at long beach I have to brake earlier everywhere and steer 'ahead of time'. It was very frustrating because I *WANTED* to use the Win95 interface. I keep thinking I'm just a driver away from happiness, but perhaps I'm just a Rendition away from Happiness. Is the Rendition version going to have a DOS-based Rendition version or Win95 only? Randy

this is actually a good idea... I think hitting F8 when the message "window 95 starting..." (or whatever it is) when intiallay booting will bring up that boot menu where you can boot safe mode, command line mode, etc. One of the options is boot w/o network. I don't know if there is a way to make that process easier, but you can try it that way to see if things improve... (i know I'll be testing it...) /scott

Sure - go into "Control Panel", choose "System" then peruse the "Hardware Profiles" menu. This allows you to create several different hardware configurations which you can select between. As usual - have fun. I am NOT responsible for any damage anyone does screwing around with Win95's hardware profiles. It often doesn't like it.... :) Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ ________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____/ * Sim Racing News * \____|::|__| \ /______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \::/ \._____\ http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~harmon/simnews

>Is the Rendition version going to have a DOS-based Rendition version >or Win95 only? I hope it's the DOS version ... sounds like Win95 sucks rocks as a simulation platform. Which is, of course, exactly what you'd expect from a multitasking, but not real-time, operating system. Given the current architecture of Win95, I think it's a mistake to try and do a simulation on it. Now I have no complaints about IncycarII, because the current version is available on both Win95 and DOS. What really worries my is Nascar 2 and the NRL. It is a DOS game, so it will work fine as a standalone game, but the Hawaii/NRL multi-user service required you to run the game under Win95 ... which of course means you'll get the same choppiness and uneven frame and I/O rates people are now experienceing with ICR2/Win95 ... which of course for a simulation, especially a multi-player simulation, will almost certainly make the game unplayable. If Papyrus is wise they will seriously reconsider hosting the NRL software on Win95. They'd be far better off sticking with DOS until a real-time OS suitable for simulations is available. Joe

Ok, I think I have some good news for people who experience jerky behavior w/ ICR2... As you might know from a previous post of mine, Dial-up networking can causes pauses in the game (which might be causing the jerkiness). There is also a known pause about 1 minute into the game, it was even noted in the README file. Using a suggestion here, I created a new hardware config that doesn't load the dial-up networking driver (which I think most Win95 systems load by default, so this will pretty much apply to all Win95 users.) What I found is that I didn't experience any jerkyiness or pause in the game! Not even the 1 minute pause... so, this might help a lot of those who complain about the Win95 version's performance... First, determine if you even need to do this... Goto the control panel and double-click on the System icon. Select the Device Manger tab, and check under Network apapters. If "Dial-Up Adapter" appears listed, then you will need to do the following... otherwise, stop here and read another news article. ;-) To create a non-network config: 1) Goto control panel and double-click on system icon. 2) Click on "Hardware Profiles" tab. 3) Press "Copy" button and name the new profile to something like "No Network" or "No Dial-Up Networking" 4) Click on the "Device Manger" tab 5) Click on "Network adapters" and then select "Dial-Up Adaptor" 6) Press the "Properties" button. 7) In the section titled "Device usage", you should now have 2 configs listed. One called "Original Configuration" and the other "No Dial-Up Networking" (or whatever you called the copy you made in step 3 above) 8) Make sure the "Original config" has a checkmark next to it, and then make sure "No Dial-Up networking" is NOT checked. 9) Hit OK. 10) Hit OK again. 11) Reboot. Windows, upon bootup, will ask which config to use. If you are going to play ICR2/Win95 then select "No Dial-Up networking"... otherwise select the "original config" I hope this works for you!!! It seems to work better for me at least! /scott -- Scott Marison, Software Engineer Sierra On-Line/Papyrus Division

<<I've used Microsoft DDtest.exe (Direct Draw Feature Testing) to check what supported on my Stealth64 VRAM (Vision 964) it reports NO hardware support on either Win95 (Diamond GT Driver) or on NT, so the HEL (Hardware Emulation ) is doing everything , and presumably add more overhead, and thus could explain the choppy frame rate. Check what chipset your stealth is.>> Mine is a Vision 968, however the story is similar. Diamond has yet to release a DirectX-compatible driver for the Stealth 64's yet and this is what was on their website the last I checked. The Diamond Edge 3D cards have a compatible driver, but there is yet no word on the Stealths. Nick ______________________________________________________________________ #6 (will he be #28 in '97) & #94 in the *real* quest for the Cup My home away from home... http://www.annihilated.com/~ntotoro/ ______________________________________________________________________

Randy, I have tested a few DirectDraw games on Win95 and WinNT 4 beta2 on my P166 with the Stealth64 VRAM the games I tested were -Super Ice qube hopper -doom95 (doom95 does not work on NT4b2) -Fozzie I don't have the Win95 Version of indycar-II , but I do have the Diamond GT drivers , and the Microsoft Direct-X SDK /samples DDtest.exe (Direct Draw Test) application. I also have a P90 with a Trio32 which has support for about 4or 5 Features as runs the above games much faster than my P166. Sad but true :-( , having the right Direct Draw driver makes all the difference. I believe the Stealth64's with the Vision 968 chips hardware features are fully support by DirectDraw,but not the older 964 based units. Can any one confirm this ? I've used Microsoft DDtest.exe (Direct Draw Feature Testing) to check what supported on my Stealth64 VRAM (Vision 964) it reports NO hardware support on either Win95 (Diamond GT Driver) or on NT, so the HEL (Hardware Emulation ) is doing everything , and presumably add more overhead, and thus could explain the choppy frame rate. check what chipset your stealth is. Geoff

-snip- Hey Joe! huh???????????????? Hawaii requires you to run under W95??? What Hawaii? One of us is grossly uninformed. Mike