ICR2 "patch" -- don't shoot the messenger

Okay, I can live with that. Keep up the good work Ed, at least your a company figure willing to converse with us. Thanx Joseph Hey, will that patch mean I must exclusively run ICR2 in win95 mode? From what I've heard I'll need more RAM just to run it in win95. True?

Folks, I've been taking a lot of heat up here regarding the ICR2 patch & I'd just like to clarify things. I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this but here it is anyway... I will do my best to let you know what I know about ICR 2. However, I am not directly involved with that project & I don't know everything that is going on over there. Frankly, I typically know as much about ICR 2 development as I do about the development of any other Sierra product. I'm perfectly willing to sit up here & take the heat, but please try not to shoot the messenger too much. I am the Producer for the NASCAR Racing League, and yes, I am here at Papyrus. That doesn't make me the P/R department. Is ICR 2 a Papyrus product? Yes. Is it being developed in the same place where I am? Yes. Do I have access to more info about it than most of you? Yes. Do I know everything about it? No. I am not Rick Genter. On a day to day basis, I'm way over my eyeballs in NRL & NCR 2 stuff. Now with that said, I'm not trying to play the corporate weenie & run away from ICR 2. I will continue to let you know what I know. However, I don't know as much as Rick Genter did, and I never will. Again, please don't shoot the messenger too much. Here's what I do & don't know... 1) The patch for the DOS version of ICR 2 is still in testing here at Papyrus. This is the DOS to DOS patch. We hope to have it online by the end of the week. 2) I am not sure what's currently up with the DOS to Win 95 patch plans. I am relatively sure that it is something that is just too big to download. I am also aware of what Rick Genter said in the past regarding this update (being a freebie online). I have as much to do with that decision as I do with the Russian election. Papyrus & Sierra are fully aware of what is going on & are in the process of figuring out the plan. As soon as I know, I'll let you know. Again, I'll let you know as much as I know along the way... but remember, I don't know everything, and I am not the embodiment of Papyrus/Sierra On-Line... I'm just 1 guy. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

>Folks, I've been taking a lot of heat up here regarding the ICR2 patch >& I'd just like to clarify things. >I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this but here it is >anyway... I will do my best to let you know what I know about ICR 2. Flamed, hardly thanks for keeping us promplty updated when i'm sure you had many other things to do on a monday ! I'd personally think no download is too big if the win95 upgrade could be broken into 5-10MB parts. I realize you have nothing to do with the patch but if you could just pass on to the powers that be that your most loyal customers who ran right out and bought icr2 back in dec95 have been led to belive all along that we would be upgraded to a bug-free w95 version, it would be most appreciated! thx for everything ED ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MP Scurvydog #00 Simpson-Cowlings Motorsports http://www.netcom.com/~svydog/scms/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quoted text (45 lines)

> Folks, I've been taking a lot of heat up here regarding the ICR2 patch > & I'd just like to clarify things. > I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this but here it is > anyway... I will do my best to let you know what I know about ICR 2. > However, I am not directly involved with that project & I don't know > everything that is going on over there. Frankly, I typically know as > much about ICR 2 development as I do about the development of any > other Sierra product. > I'm perfectly willing to sit up here & take the heat, but please try > not to shoot the messenger too much. I am the Producer for the NASCAR > Racing League, and yes, I am here at Papyrus. That doesn't make me > the P/R department. > Is ICR 2 a Papyrus product? Yes. Is it being developed in the same > place where I am? Yes. Do I have access to more info about it than > most of you? Yes. Do I know everything about it? No. I am not Rick > Genter. On a day to day basis, I'm way over my eyeballs in NRL & NCR > 2 stuff. > Now with that said, I'm not trying to play the corporate weenie & run > away from ICR 2. I will continue to let you know what I know. > However, I don't know as much as Rick Genter did, and I never will. > Again, please don't shoot the messenger too much. > Here's what I do & don't know... 1) The patch for the DOS version of > ICR 2 is still in testing here at Papyrus. This is the DOS to DOS > patch. We hope to have it online by the end of the week. 2) I am > not sure what's currently up with the DOS to Win 95 patch plans. I am > relatively sure that it is something that is just too big to download. > I am also aware of what Rick Genter said in the past regarding this > update (being a freebie online). I have as much to do with that > decision as I do with the Russian election. Papyrus & Sierra are > fully aware of what is going on & are in the process of figuring out > the plan. As soon as I know, I'll let you know. > Again, I'll let you know as much as I know along the way... but > remember, I don't know everything, and I am not the embodiment of > Papyrus/Sierra On-Line... I'm just 1 guy. > Ed Martin > Producer, Series Director > NASCAR Racing League > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Okay, fair enough. So who should we complain to?? Keith Meyer

<snipage> ----Nice line----- (ed.) Point well taken. Ed, I know you are just 1 guy at P/S O-L and I didn't try to impugn your motives for bearing the message, only P/S O-L's motive for sending the message. With Rick gone, you are the only real link to P/S in this newsgroup. My message was for your company's leadership and was not meant to be an ad hominum under any circumstances. Restraining from any untoward Caesarean impulses I will simply say, "I pray thee, bear my former answer back: Bid them acheive me, and then sell my bones. Good God! why should they mock poor fellows thus?" W.S. [Henry V] eric suter

<snip> Ok, I'll try not to - & thanks for the info. <snip> Well, I suppose that I would rather have a tested than untested version..... I sincerely hope so, but I've heard this before Why too big? Surely the tracks, etc are the same & this is the big amount of data. My root ICR2 directory is only about 5MB (small compared to the 9MB download of Quake <g>) and that contains some other stuff, & not all of it would need to be replaced & it would be zipped up, etc. Actually, I'm not too bothered about the Win 95 version. it would be a 'nice to have' but that's all (I kept DOS 6 for ***). Who is much appreciated for the advice & info that he gives us all. What I would really like to have answered from Papyrus is "why wait until the Win 95 version is out & in the shops before giving your loyal customers the first patch?" I realise that Ed can't be expected to answer for the bosses at Papy/Sierra, but I wish that someone would answer this one. My own view on this is: a) it must have been way easier to patch the DOS version than produce the Win 95 version b) the patch may not earn any hard cash, but it would have earned them a lot of respect / good will c) delaying the patch has caused a lot of bad feeling amongst Papy's most loyal customers and could lead to rather fewer future sales than the few extra ones that the Win 95 version will get. d) if GP2 makes it out before the patch, you might as well delay the patch until xmas as far as I am concerned Well, theres my two pieces of low denomination currency. And as I said before, thanks for the info Ed. Richard

OK... here's the latest... The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update. Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send back your old CD & we'll send out a new one". That's all the details I have for now. As soon as I know more, so will you! Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Thanks Ed. I've been wondering when/if someone from Papyrus would tell us what the story actually was, and thanks for doing so. Cheers! John PS - See, I'm not all bad :) PPS - And not a flame in sight! _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm\::/ \._______\

: Folks, I've been taking a lot of heat up here regarding the ICR2 patch : & I'd just like to clarify things. : I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this but here it is : anyway... I will do my best to let you know what I know about ICR 2. : However, I am not directly involved with that project & I don't know : everything that is going on over there. Frankly, I typically know as : much about ICR 2 development as I do about the development of any : other Sierra product. : I'm perfectly willing to sit up here & take the heat, but please try : not to shoot the messenger too much. I am the Producer for the NASCAR : Racing League, and yes, I am here at Papyrus. That doesn't make me : the P/R department. [snip] : Here's what I do & don't know... 1) The patch for the DOS version of : ICR 2 is still in testing here at Papyrus. This is the DOS to DOS : patch. We hope to have it online by the end of the week. 2) I am : not sure what's currently up with the DOS to Win 95 patch plans. I am : relatively sure that it is something that is just too big to download. : I am also aware of what Rick Genter said in the past regarding this : update (being a freebie online). I have as much to do with that : decision as I do with the Russian election. Papyrus & Sierra are : fully aware of what is going on & are in the process of figuring out : the plan. As soon as I know, I'll let you know. Don't worry Ed, no need to duck behind the bartizans... I am sorry that you seem to be the target of our enfilade. This is not what is really happening. You are just one of the few "real" people we know of connected with the production company we all are devoted to. At times it may seem that we have you in our cross-hairs, but this is not the case. What you hear [read] is not directed at you. It's just our way of trying to be heard by the "faceless machinery" of Papyrus/Sierra On-Line. Please rest assured that we DO want you to continue keeping us informed. All we ask is that you collect the feedback you get from us and pass it on to the decision makers. I know that most of what we ask for is impossible and you have been kind enough to try and let us down easy when you inform us that. Part of our frustration is that we have been impatiently awaiting fixes to a simulation that too many of us are too devoted to. Another part is that many of us feel betrayed. Many of us defended ICR2, bugs 'n all, after it's release. We told readers of r.a.s. (and our friends), don't worry, Papryus has a GREAT track record of supporting it's customers. Well, over the last few months there have been a few things which made us doubt our firm belief in this customer support. We feel wounded and at times our responses may seem to brash and spiteful. I am sorry about that. All we are looking for is for Papyrus to do the right thing and restore that lost faith. In this world today, there aren't that many things, people, and companies that we can put that much trust in. It's felt good to be a "proxy" part of Papyrus and all they have done for us racing fanatics. [Sorry, I've just been informed that my time is up...] In closing keep up the work, keep us informed, and have a brew on me... Sincerely, Michael E. Carver Simuholic since Indianapolis 500 the Simulation -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

[snip] : Here's what I do & don't know... 1) The patch for the DOS version of : ICR 2 is still in testing here at Papyrus. This is the DOS to DOS : patch. We hope to have it online by the end of the week. 2) I am : not sure what's currently up with the DOS to Win 95 patch plans. I am : relatively sure that it is something that is just too big to download. : I am also aware of what Rick Genter said in the past regarding this : update (being a freebie online). I have as much to do with that : decision as I do with the Russian election. Papyrus & Sierra are : fully aware of what is going on & are in the process of figuring out : the plan. As soon as I know, I'll let you know. Fair enough, though it (no snipe -- don't duck) seems that it has been in testing at Papy for 2 weeks, then Sierra wants to test it (another 2 weeks?) Now this may be a snipe, just duck so the right person gets smacked ;) I thought there were professional packages that compared old program files against the updated ones and generated patches. What you got? A couple of elves from one of those old Sierra Adventure games piecing this thing together by hand? I thought this was some of the things that being a part of Sierra On-Line was supposed to help with. (You can stand back up again!) Regarding the Win95 upgrade, originally this was to be a $10-15 upgrade path. However, as time rolled on and we didn't receive a fix for the DOS version it appears that Papyrus (and Sierra??), decided to "tide" us over with the ability to upgrade for free via download/ftp/web. When Rick mentioned that it would be HUGE, we just asked that it be broken down in parts. He replied that they would indeed try to package it into manageable parts. Keep us posted, and I don't mean to make this place too hot for you to visit. It's nothing personal.... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Flame Flame Flame Flame Flame Burn baby burn!!!! Quit ***ing about the patch. The game sure worked fine before anybody found out that there was going to be a patch for fixing something. When this patch is finally downloaded and added to the game, you probably won't notice anything different any way. Give the guy's at Sierra\Papyrus a break. They make great games and are always helpful about answering questions and problems. Do you think they're holding the release back just to spite all the hot heads?? I'll put money on that. Bill

Quoted text (8 lines)

>OK... here's the latest... >The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update. >Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide >current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide >for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send >back your old CD & we'll send out a new one". >That's all the details I have for now. As soon as I know more, so >will you!

Ed, thanks dearly for staying with this for us. I realize your position a little better now (having read your earlier post), and it seems there has been some confusion lately, with Rick taking off and all. At any rate, I for one would be extremely happy to get not merely a patch, but a clean, relatively bug-free, permanent copy on CD, so I hope you do go that way. Again, thanks for sticking with the spirit of the plan Rick laid out. And about all the flames you'll see here- let them roll off, it will be a couple of days before people catch up with the latest news.

: Here's what I do & don't know... 1) The patch for the DOS version of : ICR 2 is still in testing here at Papyrus. This is the DOS to DOS : patch. We hope to have it online by the end of the week. 2) I am : not sure what's currently up with the DOS to Win 95 patch plans. I am : relatively sure that it is something that is just too big to download. : I am also aware of what Rick Genter said in the past regarding this : update (being a freebie online). I have as much to do with that : decision as I do with the Russian election. Papyrus & Sierra are : fully aware of what is going on & are in the process of figuring out : the plan. As soon as I know, I'll let you know. : Again, I'll let you know as much as I know along the way... but : remember, I don't know everything, and I am not the embodiment of : Papyrus/Sierra On-Line... I'm just 1 guy. : Ed Martin : Producer, Series Director : NASCAR Racing League : Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. I have a suggestion, errr... rather a comment. You might want to take a look at what Activision did with their NETMECH for DOS product. This patch was over 1 year late and was placed out on the internet as a 11MB download for all of Mechwarrior 2 customers. Now if Activision can place an 11MB download, I think Papyrus/Sierra should be able to place a similar download available to all purchasers of ICR2 who do not wish to wait in the mail for their upgrade. I'd rather spend an hour online at 28.8 and get the patch than to wait. Ken.

I would still like to have it that way..I don't care how big it is!! Of course break it up..!!! Pls keep up posted.. The take over or buy out has changed the thinking at Papy..

I don't know how many of you are waiting and hoping for the Win95 patch to be a wonderful panacea given the availability of DirectX, however, if you're out there, I don't think you really have reason to get to anxious about the Win95 version. For the new Win95 version: The new Win95 shell is fantastic. The paintshop is better and is a real Windows tool (though it must be run in 256 colors), the replay editor is now windows-based and you can go to the END of the tape, drag a slider to any part of the tape on the fly, move two sliders to represent the beginning and end of a section of tape you want to save off, and you have listboxes which you can use to select cars/camera views. Its really quite nice. Long file names are supported throughout, so you can now save .STG files with meaningful names. The Garage setup dialog is a dream, with everything right there on one screen to edit, along with a comments section. The shell is great, with nice track selection, weather, realism etc all nicely done in dialogs rather than buried in tedious menus ala DOS. You also have more options regarding resolution/frame rate and you can even prioritize which of the AUTO details is turned on first and which is turned on last! All in all, a top-notch shell..which makes the following news more distressing: I found the Win95 version of the actual Sim to be too slow for comfort. I have a P-133, SB AWE 32, 24 meg RAM, Diamond Stealth 64 PCI 2meg VRAM, an ACM card and a Thrusty T2, and have tried each combination of the following: Diamond's latest drivers, Standard Win95 drivers, S3's drivers, DirectX on Sierra CD, latest DirectX 2.0, latest SB AWE 32 drivers from Creative Labs, and even a completely *** Win95 install, and the bottom line is that the frame rate is uneven, is generally between 1-5 fps slower than the DOS version on the same hardware, and there seems to be a slight delay in getting my input. Even turning ALL the details off didn't give me a particularly smooth sim, even though the game-reported frame rates (yes each version has a toggle to view the current frame rate) were in the 20 fps ballpark. In particular, braking at long straights is NOT the same. If I drive like I do in DOS, I'm into a wall. I'm not blaming this on Sierra at all. Undoubtedly they followed the rules and wrote to DirectDraw and DirectSound as they should, but clearly DirectX and/or the drivers that are currently out are not up to the demands of IndyCar, at least this is my conclusion until someone can get me some better drivers. So the Win95 version is a very mixed bag, with much of the great stuff done to the shell interface being lost due to the less than stellar Win95 DirectX performance. Personally, I probably won't do much beyond use paintshop and the standalone replay viewer in Win95 until the Rendition version comes out and I spring for a Rendition-based board. Either that or until Diamond/Microsoft/Creative Labs supply me with drivers that truly fulfill the promise of DirectSound & DirectDraw. Anyway, to most of you out there who are enjoying the DOS version, the fact that the DOS patch will be provided online is indeed good news, as this is (in my humble opinion) where most of you will keep playing if my findings about DirectX are similar on other hardware configurations. As such, having to send in a disc and get one back along shouldn't be a problem...you won't be missing as much as you might think. Randy

>OK... here's the latest... >The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update. >Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide >current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide >for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send >back your old CD & we'll send out a new one". I certainly hope you would then see fit to include the DOS version on the CD as well. I know it works, and would hate to give it up. Thanks for keeping us up to date. Cheers, Jim Boka

You been playing on Valium? When the first yellow came out at Surfers and I was told to go from first place to behind last place and then no one would pass me... I knew there was a bug!!! That was in December 1995. Get real. It is now July 1996 and I still cannot play the game with the yellows turned on. Craig. ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

>Folks, I've been taking a lot of heat up here regarding the ICR2 patch >& I'd just like to clarify things. Good try. Just what was the difference between patching NASCAR with the 1.2 patch and with ICR2? Adam Levesque actually sent me a disk ... to Canberra Australia ... with a nice letter ... only about a month after I wrote with my problems. Why is the IndyCar division and the NASCAR division doing things different?? I never wanted the WIN95 version so why did I have to wait SEVEN months? Sierra only bought Papryus about 3 months ago so that cannot be the reason. signed, Patiently waiting ... still Ecclesiastes 7:8 Craig ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

: Quit ***ing about the patch. The game sure worked fine before anybody : found out that there was going to be a patch for fixing something. When : this patch is finally downloaded and added to the game, you probably won't : notice anything different any way. Give the guy's at Sierra\Papyrus a : break. They make great games and are always helpful about answering : questions and problems. Do you think they're holding the release back just : to spite all the hot heads?? I'll put money on that. Maybe your quality standards are lower than most. I knew there was something wrong before they even mentioned a patch and so did most any other serious sim-racer. With attitudes like yours, no wonder the quality of workmenship is dropping in most areas. Papyrus has sorta been the Penske of software (especially when it comes to racing -- since that's all they do). But, even Penske and his team screws up at times. All we have been trying to do is let Papyrus know that they are straying from the standards that make them best. You don't want the patch? Fine with me. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Quoted text (11 lines)

>>OK... here's the latest... >>The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update. >>Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide >>current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide >>for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send >>back your old CD & we'll send out a new one". >I certainly hope you would then see fit to include the DOS version on >the CD as well. I know it works, and would hate to give it up. >Thanks for keeping us up to date. >Cheers, >Jim Boka

The retail CD contains the DOS, Win 95 & Mac versions on the same CD. That is what would be sent to you. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Quoted text (11 lines)

> Flame Flame Flame Flame Flame Burn baby burn!!!! > Quit ***ing about the patch. The game sure worked fine before anybody > found out that there was going to be a patch for fixing something. When > this patch is finally downloaded and added to the game, you probably won't > notice anything different any way. Give the guy's at Sierra\Papyrus a > break. They make great games and are always helpful about answering > questions and problems. Do you think they're holding the release back just > to spite all the hot heads?? I'll put money on that. > Bill

Obviously you dont pay attention or dont play it that often cause its messed up

(deleted) (deleted) Thanks Ed, I'll just wait patiently and look forward to whatever is released as an improvement. Thanks for your continued input here in ras. Please don't be scared away. I accept your reasons as stated. Keep up the good work on NCR 2! Ron

Quoted text (19 lines)

>>>Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide >>>current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide >>>for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send >>>back your old CD & we'll send out a new one". >>I certainly hope you would then see fit to include the DOS version on >>the CD as well. I know it works, and would hate to give it up. >>Thanks for keeping us up to date. >>Cheers, >>Jim Boka >The retail CD contains the DOS, Win 95 & Mac versions on the same CD. >That is what would be sent to you. >Ed Martin >Producer, Series Director >NASCAR Racing League >Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Sounds good to me, Where do I send my Old CD to? :) !!!!!!!!!! (just slightly anxious to have the REAL ICR2!!!!) Craig

Okay some people said I don't know what I'm talking about with my complaints about all the hype and constant complainting with the PATCH not done. You're right . I don't own Indy 2 just Nascar. But that wasn't my point, usually the more you complain the less people will want to help. Don't alienate Papyrus from us or they may not be so considerate with there updates in the future. Bill

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Okay some people said I don't know what I'm talking about with my > complaints about all the hype and constant complainting with the PATCH not > done. You're right . I don't own Indy 2 just Nascar. But that wasn't my > point, usually the more you complain the less people will want to help. > Don't alienate Papyrus from us or they may not be so considerate with > there updates in the future. > Bill

Congratulations Bill! You are the one out of maybe a thousand people on the net who use the correct contraction 'you're' for 'you are'. Your very smart <g>.

>OK... here's the latest... >The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update. >Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide >current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide >for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send >back your old CD & we'll send out a new one". It should be "send us the front page of the manual" or something, NOT the CD. Having to give up my DOS CD (i.e., I won't be able to re-install the DOS version if the Win95 version sucks wind on my particular setup) is an unacceptable solution. Joe

>drivers from Creative Labs, and even a completely *** Win95 install, >and the bottom line is that the frame rate is uneven, is generally between >1-5 fps slower than the DOS version on the same hardware, and there seems >to be a slight delay in getting my input. This is exactly what I was afraid would happen with a simulation on Win95, The bad news is (as you can tell having tried every driver combination) that it's not a matter of drivers or having fast hardware. The uneveness of the frame rate and steering input is more worrying than the overall speed. The problem is that Windows95 is a multitasking, but not real-time, operating system. It can't provide guarenteed response times (i.e., like a real-time OS) and your perfromance at any point in time is dependent on what the operating system happens to be doing at any given time (i.e., memory management, etc. - we can expect this problem to be much, much worse on systems les powerful than yours). It's starting to look like Win95's a failure as a platform for simulations. Joe

Quoted text (8 lines)

>: The retail CD contains the DOS, Win 95 & Mac versions on the same CD. >: That is what would be sent to you. >Not that I want to fuel the flames... >I certianly hope that this WILL BE the course of action. In November I >purchased "buggy" software. This was the fourth time Papyrus released >incomplete/untested software.

I have been ***ing as loud (but not as often) as most on RAS but be fair. IndyCar Racing 1 was revolutionary and I for one did not mind seeing features that 'could have been better in hindsight'. NASCAR Racing 1 still is a great simulation and utilised many improvements from ICR1. Let's give credit where it is due and remember how promptly the 1.2 patch came out for NCR ICR2 is terrible ... no argument. 7 months without a patch is terrible ... no argument. What was the fourth software? Surely you are not impuning Indianapolis The Simulation? Your a Philistine if you are :-) Proverbs 15:1 Cheers, Craig ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

Quoted text (8 lines)

> Okay some people said I don't know what I'm talking about with my >complaints about all the hype and constant complainting with the PATCH not >done. You're right . I don't own Indy 2 just Nascar. But that wasn't my >point, usually the more you complain the less people will want to help. >Don't alienate Papyrus from us or they may not be so considerate with >there updates in the future. >Bill

YOU DON'T OWN ICR2 ???? Then why state that it wasn't buggy????? Are you interested in politics?? Proverbs 15:2 Craig ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

: The retail CD contains the DOS, Win 95 & Mac versions on the same CD. : That is what would be sent to you. Not that I want to fuel the flames... I certianly hope that this WILL BE the course of action. In November I purchased "buggy" software. This was the fourth time Papyrus released incomplete/untested software. With ICR1 and NASCAR a patch was made available for download in about 3 months time. The two track packs required less time, and took about a month or two. I bit the price for downloading long distance. I can live with that... The case with ICR2 is a little different. "Buggy" is an understatement. Now I know the product was tested (I know a couple of your testers) so it was clearly released with full knowledge that the software did not perform as per the box, or the instruction manual. Mr. Martin/Papyrus/Sierra, I am NOT going to accept "...a patch will be made available for download...". I will only accept complete CD replacement (and it sounds as though the manual has been redone too?). The fact that ICR2 has been reissued ("patched" version) into the market with the CD containing Win95 *AND* DOS versions of the software while I still wait for a DOS patch is infurriating. It even makes me wonder if Papyrus still has me registered on all its products (ICR, ICR Track Pack, ICR Indy, NASCAR, NASCAR Track Pack, and ICR2) as I did this electronicly via Papyrus' now defunct BBS. It could be so easy for them to loose that information and charge me some sort of fee for CD exchange... __o _-\<,_ Cosmo Potapoff

>The retail CD contains the DOS, Win 95 & Mac versions on the same CD. >That is what would be sent to you. OK, fair enough then, Joe

: Okay some people said I don't know what I'm talking about with my : complaints about all the hype and constant complainting with the PATCH not : done. You're right . I don't own Indy 2 just Nascar. But that wasn't my : point, usually the more you complain the less people will want to help. : Don't alienate Papyrus from us or they may not be so considerate with : there updates in the future. Yeh, I know you will catch more flies with honey not vinegar. But I am not looking for flies :) Do you remember the fable of the Emperor's New Clothes? Both parties here have a vested interest in this debate. Papyrus is NOTHING without its customer base. Us *** race-simmers are nothing without Papyrus (Yeh, I know about f1GP & GP2). Papyrus needs to know how their customer base feels about how they are doing business. I am glad that Papyrus has taken a step that many businesses wouldn't even dare try, keeping their customers informed. Back to the Emperor... If someone doesn't have the guts to say that the Emperor is ***, where are we left. We are left with the best Racing Simulator software company producing shoddy work and giving poor customer satisfaction. Eventually Papyrus will get lost in the market as other companies realize the value of the sim/racing market. Companies that are not as devoted to producing Real Hard-Core Sims. I am sorry if you truly like the Emperor's New Clothes, I for one see a bad trend developing here. It is a dangerous one for the customer and could eventually come back to bite Papyrus. I don't want to see the customer having to wait for a "new" product to come out in order to get fixes for bugs in a product. This is not fair and it is not good business practice. As it stands, this is the case with NASCAR. I will admit that Papyrus was good at fixing many of the bugs in a timely manner. However, I am still disappointed that I have to wait until NASCAR2 comes out to have the traction/easy-yellow bugs fixed. Especially when we were informed that we would have patches for NASCAR1. This trend needs to be stopped. We are the consumers of their products and have every right to voice our wants. If we decide not to buy into this brand of business, who is Papyrus gonna making a living off of? That leaves Elvis and aliens. Elvis will be looking for a Pink Cadillac Sim and the aliens will probably want the X-COM series. When Intel refused to admit that their Pentiums had a bug in them and then refused to do anything about, I vowed not to buy another Intel based computer. Cyrix and AMD would have increased their market share, since I was not the only person who felt this way. However, Intel admitted they made a poor busisness decision and went out of their way to do the right thing. Well, I now feel more comfortable buying another Intel chip when I upgrade. Yeh, I know Cyrix has a good looking product out there, but I am still going for Intel. There's a lesson in consumer-based business here. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

..........Big snip If you make them available, we will come. Someone will get it from you, then find a way to make it more accessible to the rest of the world. There is no such thing as "too big to download", at least not yet. We will find a way. Mike

Joe - it was mentioned that the CD they would send you is the same version available in the store. IE - comes with updated DOS version, Win95 version, and Mac version.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> >for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send > >back your old CD & we'll send out a new one". > It should be "send us the front page of the manual" or something, NOT > the CD. Having to give up my DOS CD (i.e., I won't be able to > re-install the DOS version if the Win95 version sucks wind on my > particular setup) is an unacceptable solution. > Joe

Can someone explain the data in the file Drivers2.txt for Nascar Racing? I'm specifically trying to figure out the 8 3-digit numbers in the middle. When I bought my Soundblaster a couple years ago, it included Indy 500 by Electronics Arts. Unfortunately, I seem to have misplaced one of the books that goes with it. I still have the copy protection book that has all the photos, but I lost the little manual that tells what keys are used in the game. I remember stuff about adjusting rollbars, etc., but don't remember the specific keys and function keys. Does anyone have this information and would they be willing to post here or email it to me? I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks. JMG

Quoted text (12 lines)

> >OK... here's the latest... > >The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update. > >Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide > >current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide > >for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send > >back your old CD & we'll send out a new one". > It should be "send us the front page of the manual" or something, NOT > the CD. Having to give up my DOS CD (i.e., I won't be able to > re-install the DOS version if the Win95 version sucks wind on my > particular setup) is an unacceptable solution.

I'm not defending or trying to defend anyone, but I believe Ed said the new CD has the DOS, Win95 and Mac versions on it. For a trade, assuming the handling cost is minimal, I find that acceptable... as long as I get the new product and get to evaluate it before sending the old back. Nick ______________________________________________________________________ #6 (will he be #28 in '97) & #94 in the *real* quest for the Cup My home away from home... http://www.mindspring.com/~ntotoro/ ______________________________________________________________________

: Let's give credit where it is due and remember how promptly the 1.2 : patch came out for NCR Actually I (think) said that I had no problems with ICR and NASCAR. I knew they were working on patches quickly (they mentioned this on their BBS) and they did come out quickly. I didn't really have a problem calling long distance (Edmonton, Canada to Boston area) downloading the patches. It was understandable somewhat then. : What was the fourth software? Surely you are not impuning : Indianapolis The Simulation? Your a Philistine if you are :-) No I wasn't implying I500 (when I bought that one new), I was implying the ICR Track Pack and Indy Pack (actually I could have used the term fifth, seeing as they're seperate packages). The problem was Indy's yellow flags didn't work correctly (once yellow, didn't go green), the Track Pack had two similar problems with Detroit and Mid-Ohio (if I remember correctly), and Mid-Ohio's color palatte for rain was more like a thunderstorm blackout. All were fixed within a month with TXT files for the tracks and a PCX file for the rain situation. __o _-\<,_ Cosmo Potapoff

>done. You're right . I don't own Indy 2 just Nascar. But that wasn't my I see, you don't own the games, but your psychic powers have told you how serious the bugs are. I have Nascar and Indycar II. I love Nascar, it's one of the best games on my PC. IndyCar II, for me, is unplayable because of the weight-shifting (i.e., traction) bug. It is impossible to find a good setup, not just because of this bug, but because it is intermittent. I've tried to play the game probably on a dozen different occasions, only to give up in frustration. Bugs this serious *should* have caused a "hold the new products until we get this one fixed" response from Papyrus, not***ing your paying customers around for seven months (and counting), customers who *still* don't have a working program. Joe P.S. - Yes, I have worked in a software development company, I've written 200,000 line C programs. I know what's involved in making a patch, that it's a lot of work. That changes nothing. This is simpy about giving people what they paid for.

: Can someone explain the data in the file Drivers2.txt for Nascar : Racing? I'm specifically trying to figure out the 8 3-digit numbers in : the middle. FAQ volunteer, please take note: First look at the header in the drivers.txt file that accompanies the drivers2.txt file. To quote: rem The pairs of numbers from 1 to 999 are as follows: rem power, traction, drag, and aggression Admittedly, this doesn't help out alot. The first number in the pair is the minimum where the second is the maximum. The program will pick a number from this range for each session. power = mostly deals with straight-away speed traction = mostly deals with ability to corner drag = deals with qualifying aggression = deals with drivers style (i.e., protecting line and position). : When I bought my Soundblaster a couple years ago, it included Indy 500 : by Electronics Arts. Unfortunately, I seem to have misplaced one of the : books that goes with it. I still have the copy protection book that has : all the photos, but I lost the little manual that tells what keys are : used in the game. I remember stuff about adjusting rollbars, etc., but : don't remember the specific keys and function keys. Does anyone have : this information and would they be willing to post here or email it to : me? I would greatly appreciate it. Just a moment while I rustle through my vault of racing sims...... ............... ................... Let's see, Grand Prix nope -- Bill Elliott's Nascar Challenge nope -- Ferrari Formula 1 nope -- World Circuit nope -- Indycar Racing nope -- NASCAR Racing nope -- Indycar Racing 2 nope -- Falcon 3.0 nope (wrong sim) -- F1GP2 nope (now how did that get there?) Oh here it is Indianapolis 500 the Simulation, yes the first Real Racing Simulation c1989 Papyrus Design Group -- minimum requirement IBM Turbo XT w/384k, CGA! Darn the manual and card are not in the box. Just a moment while I look for my stash of manuals.................. ........... .................... ......................... Chequered Flag? Ahhhh, my first racing sim. Sorry I degress. Stiffen Front anti-roll bar +/= Soften Front anti-roll bar _/- Stiffen Rear anti-roll bar }/] Soften Rear anti-roll bar {/[ Set Turboboost 1-9 Cruise control C Sound Control Ctrl-S Restart Event Ctrl-R Center Controls Ctrl-J F3 Fuel F7 Pressures F4 Wings F8 Shocks F5 *** F9 Camber F6 Stagger F10 Gears Change the above by using < & > F1 Lap Info F2 Standings -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Quoted text (11 lines)

>> It should be "send us the front page of the manual" or something, NOT >> the CD. Having to give up my DOS CD (i.e., I won't be able to >> re-install the DOS version if the Win95 version sucks wind on my >> particular setup) is an unacceptable solution. > I'm not defending or trying to defend anyone, but I believe Ed said >the new CD has the DOS, Win95 and Mac versions on it. For a trade, >assuming the handling cost is minimal, I find that acceptable... as long >as I get the new product and get to evaluate it before sending the old >back. > Nick

I agree with Joe, it should be the manual cover instead of the old CD. You say you want the new game before you send the old one back. Papyrus would be foolish to agree to this, it's too prone to abuse. If you send the old CD back, you run the risk of it getting lost in the mail, and then you have nothing. If you send the manual cover, you still have your old CD, you can reinstall it if you wind up not liking the Win95 version and you're out nothing. Also, what would Papy do with the old CDs? Junk them, where they'll end up in a landfill somewhere? Resell them as a budget 're-release' and risk shipping ruined, scratched discs? Sending in the manual cover has worked for years, and I think it's the best choice.

EM> The retail CD contains the DOS, Win 95 & Mac versions on the same EM> CD. That is what would be sent to you. And when is the OS/2 version coming then? Taking advantage of the speech recognition that's being built into Merlin (the next OS/2 release out this autumn probably) which works very effectively in this multi-tasking environment? (unlike - I believe - on the Mac.) I'm told IBM do a nice line in tools for easy porting of app's..... B-) Cheers! --- * RM 1.3 U0414 * ... Mating call of the Mail Duck --- QWK QWK QWK

>--- > * RM 1.3 U0414 * ... Mating call of the Mail Duck --- QWK QWK QWK I DON'T GET IT. Craig ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

>Joe - it was mentioned that the CD they would send you is the same >version available in the store. IE - comes with updated DOS version, >Win95 version, and Mac version. Ok, that's fair enough then. Joe

>I have just installed Flight unlimited for Win95 and I cant see any >difference in frame rates from my dos version. It did not overwrite my >s3 trio64 directX drivers either. At 640-480 it runs reasonably smoothly >in full***pit mode and very smooth everywere else. Was it worth the upgrade? I heard there's some new scenery, but Flight Unlimted scenery is kind of "flat" anyway, so I'm not sure if that alone is worth it. Joe