Attention Ed Martin

Ed, I realize you guys are working VERY *** Nascar 2 and it is very much appreciated! I have a question though, why can't you implement the Hawaii physics model into a patch for Nascar 1.21 users? It is very irritating to not be able to test a Hawaii setup with the AI. It also makes me not even try to setup a car for 1.21 because I know it is unuseable for Multiplayer. I don't care about all of the other things you have and are adding, just the physics, PLEASE! I want to be able to use all of my setups with the AI, and not have to bug a friend to hook up for modem play with multi.exe, which doesn't work perfectly without a server involved. Anyone else agree with me??? Thanks for you time and support! Regards, Todd

I also find this very frustrating. I'd love to be able to test my setups against over cars without having to pay LD rates. Then, when I've got a setup I like, take it to Hawaii. Couldn't we please, please, please have the Hawaii physics model for standalone ?? - Paul

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>Ed, >I realize you guys are working VERY *** Nascar 2 and it is very much >appreciated! >I have a question though, why can't you implement the Hawaii physics model >into a patch for Nascar 1.21 users? It is very irritating to not be able to >test a Hawaii setup with the AI. It also makes me not even try to setup a car >for 1.21 because I know it is unuseable for Multiplayer. I don't care about >all of the other things you have and are adding, just the physics, PLEASE! >I want to be able to use all of my setups with the AI, and not have to bug a >friend to hook up for modem play with multi.exe, which doesn't work perfectly >without a server involved. >Anyone else agree with me??? >Thanks for you time and support! >Regards, >Todd

Well, you pretty much hit it on the head with your first sentence. In order to release an update to stand-alone NCR 1.21, the same team that is doing NCR 2 would have to do it. and then, it would have to be tested. We made the decision to concentrate on NCR 2. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Please, Ed, Me too. I would love to have the ability to use the multi. exe physics model against the AI cars. I need the practice. Tom

>Well, you pretty much hit it on the head with your first sentence. In >order to release an update to stand-alone NCR 1.21, the same team that >is doing NCR 2 would have to do it. and then, it would have to be >tested. We made the decision to concentrate on NCR 2. Ed, Based on the fact that we can Modem race with AI cars using MULTI.EXE, I'd venture a guess that the only thing missing is the ability to select Single Race from the menu. I'd be happy with this turned on as an unsupported option in MULTI.EXE. PLEASE consider this the next time the team generates a version of MULTI.EXE. Thanks, Brad

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>Ed, >Based on the fact that we can Modem race with AI cars using MULTI.EXE, >I'd venture a guess that the only thing missing is the ability to >select Single Race from the menu. >I'd be happy with this turned on as an unsupported option in >MULTI.EXE. >PLEASE consider this the next time the team generates a version of >MULTI.EXE. >Thanks, >Brad

Well, it's actually a lot more than that. Regardless, I don't think you'll be seeing a version of MULTI that supports anything but multiplayer. MULTI.EXE is a prototype piece of code that was never really intended to be used single player. When we decided to put the physics fixes into MULTI, we knew that we had to turn preseason practice on, so we tested that. However, once you dealve into the world of AI, things can get complicated. Sorry! :-( Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

[snip] : >I have a question though, why can't you implement the Hawaii physics model : >into a patch for Nascar 1.21 users? It is very irritating to not be able to : >test a Hawaii setup with the AI. It also makes me not even try to setup a car : >for 1.21 because I know it is unuseable for Multiplayer. I don't care about : >all of the other things you have and are adding, just the physics, PLEASE! [snip] : I also find this very frustrating. I'd love to be able to test my setups : against over cars without having to pay LD rates. Then, when I've got a setup : I like, take it to Hawaii. : Couldn't we please, please, please have the Hawaii physics model for standalone : ?? I really shouldn't say anything, considering the FLAP caused by the "lateness" of the ICR2 patch. But having followed r.a.s. for years and also monitoring Papyrus' AOL technical board... We were told that once they fixed the "easy" yellows in the Hawaii version we WOULD see a patch for the stand-alone NASCAR. Well, Ed has since posted that we will not see a patch (except for upgrading to version 2.0). I personally feel let down by this "slight". I'm hooked and will buy version 2.0, even if they don't patch/fix 1.21 -- However, I am not happy about it. I strongly suggest that Sierra give the added resources to the Papyrus group to let them live up to their earlier word on a fix for NASCAR 1.xx. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> >Ed, > >I realize you guys are working VERY *** Nascar 2 and it is very much > >appreciated! > >I have a question though, why can't you implement the Hawaii physics model > >into a patch for Nascar 1.21 users? It is very irritating to not be able to > >test a Hawaii setup with the AI. It also makes me not even try to setup a car > >for 1.21 because I know it is unuseable for Multiplayer. I don't care about > >all of the other things you have and are adding, just the physics, PLEASE! > >I want to be able to use all of my setups with the AI, and not have to bug a > >friend to hook up for modem play with multi.exe, which doesn't work perfectly > >without a server involved. > >Anyone else agree with me??? > >Thanks for you time and support! > >Regards, > >Todd > I also find this very frustrating. I'd love to be able to test my setups > against over cars without having to pay LD rates. Then, when I've got a setup > I like, take it to Hawaii. > Couldn't we please, please, please have the Hawaii physics model for standalone > ?? > - Paul

Here-here. Me too! This would make us more competitive at Hawaii, and since its still a free beta, there is no impact to Sierra. We will be able to do this with NASCAR 2, so it would be great now. Another option would be to add computer cars to multi. Thanks.

sent shooting through ***space: Michael -- Normally I agree with you about things in this newsgroup, but here I must disagree. I don't see the point of putting new wine in old bottles, so to speak -- why patch an older version of the sim, which is likely to be SLOWER than the 2.0 version? Would you rather they divert resources from the 2.0 project to patch 1.21, which would probably set back the 2.0 release date? I look at it this way -- 2.0 is an UPDATE instead of a new simulator, much as people might persuade me otherwise. I will consider a version a COMPLETELY new version once the track tools, car models, etc. are completely rewritten (ie. no curved pit roads, etc.), because I will assume it's from the ground up. So, in essence, the patch you want for 1.21 will be done in November. -- IWCCCARS Project Coordinator http://www.xmission.com/~iwcc/project.htm Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

i thought you were able to run the Multi version and race AI cars .It was under MultiB12 i thought.You could D/L it off off the MP service at one time.Correct me if i am wrong.

I am suprised nobody has hacked into multi.exe to find a way to make it work like nascar.exe or vice versa. Gene

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>I really shouldn't say anything, considering the FLAP caused by the >"lateness" of the ICR2 patch. But having followed r.a.s. for years and >also monitoring Papyrus' AOL technical board... We were told that once >they fixed the "easy" yellows in the Hawaii version we WOULD see a >patch for the stand-alone NASCAR. Well, Ed has since posted that we >will not see a patch (except for upgrading to version 2.0). I >personally feel let down by this "slight". I'm hooked and will buy >version 2.0, even if they don't patch/fix 1.21 -- However, I am not >happy about it. I strongly suggest that Sierra give the added resources >to the Papyrus group to let them live up to their earlier word on a fix >for NASCAR 1.xx. >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

OK... before we start another ICR 2 "patch incident", I want to be VERY clear on this: At this time there are NO PLANS to offer a "patch" to NASCAR 1.x to "upgrade" it to NASCAR 2. I don't want to get into a long discussion about what is a "new product" vs what is an "updated product". Everyone has their own threshold. However, we consider NASCAR Racing 2 a new product, not an upgrade. Do not expect a "patch". Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

>I have a question though, why can't you implement the Hawaii physics model >into a patch for Nascar 1.21 users? It is very irritating to not be able >to test a Hawaii setup with the AI. It also makes me not even try to setup a >car for 1.21 because I know it is unuseable for Multiplayer. I don't care >about all of the other things you have and are adding, just the physics, PLEASE! >I want to be able to use all of my setups with the AI, and not have to bug >a friend to hook up for modem play with multi.exe, which doesn't work >perfectly without a server involved. We're aware of the problem here, but unfortunately, its too costly for Papyrus to be able to release a NASCAR patch which only updates the physics with a major new release only a few months away. Our only real option was to hold back on including those fixes in the Hawaii version of NASCAR, and we decided it was better to give you guys the fix for multiplayer racing now than to delay any release until NASCAR II. Sorry, thats just how it is. Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group

: OK... before we start another ICR 2 "patch incident", I want to be : VERY clear on this: At this time there are NO PLANS to offer a : "patch" to NASCAR 1.x to "upgrade" it to NASCAR 2. : I don't want to get into a long discussion about what is a "new : product" vs what is an "updated product". Everyone has their own : threshold. However, we consider NASCAR Racing 2 a new product, not an : upgrade. Do not expect a "patch". Okay, Ed, I can live with this. It doesn't make me tickled pink, but at least I know the realities. If my sacrafice of limping along with a slightly marred NASCAR 1.21 will make the reality of NASCAR2 & NRL & "reasonalbe" cost network connection possible I'll do it. I just hope that you can really produce a "cleaner" version of NASCAR2 out of the box than NASCAR1 & the ICR's were. With ICR1 you were very good in releasing fixes in a timely manner. It seems that you may have over extended your resources when putting together NASCAR & ICR2. All I can hope is that Sierra can provide you with the resources you need to put out a truly excellent product for us racing junkies. No matter how loud we scream and cry don't rush it until it's right. And if Sierra screams that it has to be out before it's ready, you tell them I gave you permission to get some added resources from Sierra's talent pool. I am sure they will understand. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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>: OK... before we start another ICR 2 "patch incident", I want to be >: VERY clear on this: At this time there are NO PLANS to offer a >: "patch" to NASCAR 1.x to "upgrade" it to NASCAR 2. >: I don't want to get into a long discussion about what is a "new >: product" vs what is an "updated product". Everyone has their own >: threshold. However, we consider NASCAR Racing 2 a new product, not an >: upgrade. Do not expect a "patch". >Okay, Ed, I can live with this. It doesn't make me tickled pink, but at >least I know the realities. If my sacrafice of limping along with a >slightly marred NASCAR 1.21 will make the reality of NASCAR2 & NRL & >"reasonalbe" cost network connection possible I'll do it. >I just hope that you can really produce a "cleaner" version of NASCAR2 >out of the box than NASCAR1 & the ICR's were. With ICR1 you were >very good in releasing fixes in a timely manner. It seems that you may >have over extended your resources when putting together NASCAR & ICR2. >All I can hope is that Sierra can provide you with the resources you >need to put out a truly excellent product for us racing junkies. >No matter how loud we scream and cry don't rush it until it's right. >And if Sierra screams that it has to be out before it's ready, you tell >them I gave you permission to get some added resources from Sierra's >talent pool. I am sure they will understand. >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I can't speak for ICR 2, however, I've been attached to NCR in one way or another all along. I think that there have been timely patches for NCR 1.x. Yes, we did find problems after it shipped, but it went from v1.0 to v 1.21 somehow, didn't it? The stuff that people are looking for in v1.22 (or whatever a successor for 1.21 might be called) has been caused by enhancements made to make MULTI work. MULTI is a prototype... all of Hawaii is a prototype. NCR came out in November, 1994. Almost 2 years ago. For a 2 year old product, NCR 1.x is pretty damned good. 2 years ago, it was ahead of "state-of-the art". I know everyone thinks it would be great if products were just "free-patched" to death in order to make major changes/jumps, but it just can't work that way. Microprose isn't patching World Circuit (GP1) to death to come out with GP2, and we can't do it for NCR 2. There are man-years worth of effort that goes into products like this. Sorry to jump on the soapbox again, but I think some of the things you've said are a little unfair. There is not a single perfect computer product out there ANYWHERE... there never will be. We just try to do our best, and in the case of NCR, I've think we've done even more. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

: I can't speak for ICR 2, however, I've been attached to NCR in one way : or another all along. I think that there have been timely patches for : NCR 1.x. Yes, we did find problems after it shipped, but it went from : v1.0 to v 1.21 somehow, didn't it? : The stuff that people are looking for in v1.22 (or whatever a : successor for 1.21 might be called) has been caused by enhancements : made to make MULTI work. MULTI is a prototype... all of Hawaii is a : prototype. : NCR came out in November, 1994. Almost 2 years ago. For a 2 year old : product, NCR 1.x is pretty damned good. 2 years ago, it was ahead of : "state-of-the art". : I know everyone thinks it would be great if products were just : "free-patched" to death in order to make major changes/jumps, but it : just can't work that way. Microprose isn't patching World Circuit : (GP1) to death to come out with GP2, and we can't do it for NCR 2. : There are man-years worth of effort that goes into products like this. : Sorry to jump on the soapbox again, but I think some of the things : you've said are a little unfair. There is not a single perfect : computer product out there ANYWHERE... there never will be. We just : try to do our best, and in the case of NCR, I've think we've done even : more. I am sorry if my comments seemed too harsh. NASCAR is a wonderful product. And yes many of the pathces came out in a timely manner. However, there were some fixes that were needed like the "green flag" patches for a couple of the tracks. I just found it strange that such easily spotted "errors" where allowed into the production. And yes these were minor glitches and were promptly patched. I am very appreciative of these early responses. I have been happy and have spent too many hours & hours & hours with your fine products. Going all the way back to the original Indianapolis 500. One of the reasons I looked forward to NASCAR was the ability of "close racing". This means a little fender rubbing at times. However, NASCAR Racing has always had the tendency to throw the yellow flag for the slightest of "paint trading". This and the "traction" (or weight shifting) bug are all that I expected to be patched for NASCAR Racing. The easy yellow is the patch I referred to that was promised by Papyrus Tech when it was fixed in the Multi-player mode. We were told that it was not an easy fix, but we could expect one once it was worked into the Multi-player version. I am sorry but these two bugs do mar SLIGHTLY an otherwise EXCELLENT product. I am not looking for the added features such as the tow truck, stopping repairs in the pits, etc. which were added to the Multi-player mode. I also understand the realities you are struggling under. It is not my intention in continuing this thread to harrass or badger you. I am just concerned that in the efforts to get a product out the door some of the little things are being brushed aside. Sometimes it's the little things that make for loyal customers. That's why there was such hissy fit over the delayed ICR2 patch. There was no way that the Yellow Flag bug in ICR2 could have been missed. Yet the game was rushed to market for Christmas. This is understandable, it makes financial sense. But to delay fixing this glaring error for 7 months is not understandable. Yes, I understand that the major thrust of Papyrus' concerns where to get the Win96/Mac version finished. But this was a slight to the customers who had purchased the DOS version. All I want to do is express my concerns as a consumer and a loyal fan of your excellent products. My concerns may seem trivial when compared to the wealth of the overall programs, but they help tarnish the enjoyment. I do not want to see this trend grow, because I want to continue to enjoy your fine products. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Sorry to jump on the soapbox again, but I think some of the things > you've said are a little unfair. There is not a single perfect > computer product out there ANYWHERE... there never will be. We just > try to do our best, and in the case of NCR, I've think we've done even > more. Touche! Most of the people who complain about this have never seen or written a line of code in their life. They are barely able to put together a complete sentence, little else millions of lines of "perfect" code. KenH

Just thought i'd like to point out that many programmers, who ARE capable or writing "perfect" code, seem to have no grip on the english language, (or their respective native language)... well just my 2cents, (actually i'm just reeaaallyyy bored!)

That's clear enough... I won't expect a Patch...and if the (2) version is worth it,I guess I'll buy it....but it would seem to me,to be a shame,to just end an ERA (NASCAR(1))...poof!...just like that.... Even though I Love NEW stuff. Aussie