INDYCAR 2 ( PATCH)

Where the hell is the patch ....we have waited long enough for the patch can you guys at Papyrus get your act together ....When INDYCAR 2 was first released I made the statment" INDYCAR II TOTAL ***"and everbody said WHY????? NOW THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS WHY ....Lets change the statment to" INDYCAR II TOTAL WOW GREAT CANT LIVE WITHOUT IT" fix the grip problem and all the other faults and lets get on with what could be the best sim around .you guys said buy 21st June your time is over ....start bullshiting us again

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>Where the hell is the patch ....we have waited long enough for the patch >can you guys at Papyrus get your act together ....When INDYCAR 2 was first >released I made the statment" INDYCAR II TOTAL ***"and everbody said WHY????? >NOW THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS WHY ....Lets change the statment to" INDYCAR II TOTAL >WOW GREAT CANT LIVE WITHOUT IT" fix the grip problem and all the other faults >and lets get on with what could be the best sim around .you guys said buy 21st >June your time is over ....start bullshiting us again

I might be a bit relaxed in my response, but SHUT THE HELL UP WITH YOUR GRIPING!!!! You go and try to do it yourself and see when you can release it, free of charge, no new bugs, etc. I don't even remember a specific date, only end of this week or next, but even if there was one mentioned, you've got a lot of nerve ***ing about something you don't even know everythin about! Maybe you'd like to stop for a second and think about all the people at Papyrus working hard to produce a quality product, patch, working late hours just to please people like you who will never give a damn anyway. That must make their day brighter, I'm sure... If you've got an ounce of respect, then show it. That's all some of us ask. And you're post is tame compared to some of the ones here! KS KS

Man , you act as if software is cheap. For the price you have to pay it should be right the first time. So stick that in your pipe ans smoke it.

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>I might be a bit relaxed in my response, but SHUT THE HELL UP WITH >YOUR GRIPING!!!! You go and try to do it yourself and see when you >can release it, free of charge, no new bugs, etc. I don't even >remember a specific date, only end of this week or next, but even if >there was one mentioned, you've got a lot of nerve ***ing about >something you don't even know everythin about! Maybe you'd like to >stop for a second and think about all the people at Papyrus working >hard to produce a quality product, patch, working late hours just to >please people like you who will never give a damn anyway. That must >make their day brighter, I'm sure...

Is 7 months specific enough? I can only imagine their payroll if they have been working overtime since December to get a patch out. I for one am glad I contributed so early to the effort (Nov. 28). My money is being well spent.....Not! And how do you know how hard they've been working?

>Is 7 months specific enough? I can only imagine their payroll if they >have been working overtime since December to get a patch out. I for >one am glad I contributed so early to the effort (Nov. 28). My money >is being well spent.....Not! >And how do you know how hard they've been working? I can understand some of the comments made in this thread ..... i mean last i heard " by the end of the week " My gripe is WHY NOT POST A MESSAGE STATING THERE WILL BE A DELAY " I don't agree with the foul mouth stuff .... Papyrus montiors this area and they post messages here.... what would have been so hard about telling everybody the patch wouldn't be ready Friday .. Just My 2 cents worth ....

: I might be a bit relaxed in my response, but SHUT THE HELL UP WITH : YOUR GRIPING!!!! You go and try to do it yourself and see when you : can release it, free of charge, no new bugs, etc. I don't even : remember a specific date, only end of this week or next, but even if : there was one mentioned, you've got a lot of nerve ***ing about : something you don't even know everythin about! Maybe you'd like to : stop for a second and think about all the people at Papyrus working : hard to produce a quality product, patch, working late hours just to : please people like you who will never give a damn anyway. That must : make their day brighter, I'm sure... : KS I agree that there wasn't a specific date mentioned...just "about the middle of June". The Mac/Win95 versions and the patch were ready on (or about) the 15, according to posts here by Ed and Rick. I think the gripes are justified because the PATCH IS READY, they just won't release it!!!! Come on Papyrus.....oopps, I guess it's Sierra now. I guess we can expect the same kind of user support now eh? They've got our money, they don't have to worry about us anymore. Later, Rick Martel or

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>>Is 7 months specific enough? I can only imagine their payroll if they >>have been working overtime since December to get a patch out. I for >>one am glad I contributed so early to the effort (Nov. 28). My money >>is being well spent.....Not! >>And how do you know how hard they've been working? > I can understand some of the comments made in this thread ..... > i mean last i heard " by the end of the week " > My gripe is WHY NOT POST A MESSAGE STATING THERE WILL > BE A DELAY "

I'm not going to be bitter about the late patch, just impatient. But the above is a good point about keeping us informed- that damn WWW page hasn't been touched since november! I think the switchover to Sierra has taken a big toll on many things we don't fully know about. I think Rick was completely sincere about getting the patch up by today- maybe he succeeded in his role, or maybe he and his team are still fighting with the patch. But Sierra seems to know nothing of this patch- go ahead, try emailing them- no matter what I ask, like "where? when", they respond " there is no patch for ICR2." I think THEY are probably going to be the slow link in this last stage. So a friendly but clearly anxious email to them might be useful. Unfortunately, I think friday was Rick's last day- or is it next friday? If next friday, then I imagine the reason we haven't heard from him is that he's still sweating to get the patch ready- he apparently pulled two or three all nighters before the release to printers of the Mac/Win95 version. But he did finish by his deadline... Meanwhile, we could pester (nicely) Ed Martin in to giving us a clue what's happening. I am as eager as anyone to get that patch!

<much cut> You are right, no specific date mentioned, but Rick did say this: [Date: 18 Jun 1996 18:13:26 -0400] and [Date: 17 Jun 1996 19:51:00 -0400] Don't look for an ICR2 patch until NCR2 ships. <<<< I am sure Rick was sincere; maybe he did get caught with a bigger job than he expected, but I feel secure it is either done or he is working on it as we speak. But Sierra, on the other hand, seems to have no clue as to what is going on with ICR2. A friendly email to them asking about the patch might spur them a bit.

If your boss came up to you one day at work (assuming you DO have a job) and said, "For all the money I pay you, you should do everything right the first time, no excuses!", what would your response be?

surely if you pay for something a patch shouldn't be needed as it, by rights, should work properly in the first place... -- Billy.......

Do you have a job? Because that is the goal. Corporate America is not looking for excuses, its looking for people who can take responsibilty.

writes: <<If your boss came up to you one day at work (assuming you DO have a job) and said, "For all the money I pay you, you should do everything right the first time, no excuses!", what would your response be?>> My boss DOES say that to me EVERY DAY! I'm self employed and if I*** up with my boss, the paying public- even once- my hard earned reputation, my pride, and my ability to put food on the table suffers. No excuses, no crybaby whining, no second chances. Tell the truth from the get go. What we are asking for here is just a little honesty from Sierria. BTW, this situation seems to confirm the fears-as far as customer support goes-that alot of people had when Papyrus was taken over by Sierria. One more thing: I thind that I remember Rick Genter saying a few months ago that the patch was finished and would not be released until the '95 version was ready to ship.

I don't think so because when it comes to the customer you can't afford to not do it right the first time. This goes for everything - ie. you buy a car - 3 months later the brakes malfunction and you plow into a wall. You the designer (or builder) can not come out after and say oooops. Everything should be released when it is ready and not before just to bring in the bucks. That is the problem. These companies release half ass done programs and expect us to put up with the program until it is fixed when they feel it should be fixed. Just take the extra time and DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.......... says... > >Man , you act as if software is cheap. For the price you have to > >pay it should be right the first time. So stick that in your pipe > >ans smoke it. > If your boss came up to you one day at work (assuming you DO have a job) and > said, "For all the money I pay you, you should do everything right the first > time, no excuses!", what would your response be?

There was a date mentioned of "a couple of weeks" WAY back just after Christmas. I wouldn't be so annoyed about this if I wasn't 99.9% convinced that the patch has been delayed to allow work on NASCAR2, Hawaii, Mac-ICR2, Rendition-ICR2, Win95-ICR2 and even Road Rash. I'd quite have liked a working ICR2 first to help out those long suffering early buyers. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm\::/ \._______\

I think that the worst thing about this is the fact that no one will say when they are going to post the patch. I've seen Ed's messages in various questions about Nascar 2, why is it so hard to get an answer to this. If you say you're gonna do something by a certain time and don't, the least you owe is an explanation.

>>I agree that there wasn't a specific date mentioned...just "about the >>middle of June". >There was a date mentioned of "a couple of weeks" WAY back just after >Christmas. I wouldn't be so annoyed about this if I wasn't 99.9% >convinced that the patch has been delayed to allow work on NASCAR2, >Hawaii, Mac-ICR2, Rendition-ICR2, Win95-ICR2 and even Road Rash. I tend to think the delays (and a whole lot else) happened because of the Sierra takeover.

I do have a job , thank you very much. Im not a ***er bopper like most who frequent this page! So you dont think sierra is making a killing in profits from these games they release , they release them when selling is good even if it is half ass! Nascar 2 is probably done but a christmas release would bring in more sales at retail prices. Sierra is out to make money like everybody else and these patches are made so you will buy there products in the future. Thats good business and nothing more. So stop fooling yourself thinking that there for us. By the way do you have a job if so half ass work doesnt keep the job and then you will have to rely on mommy and daddy to buy you nascar 2. No excuses are the words my boss uses and its true if you want to remain competitive in the job market.If you cant do it somone else can and will. Think about it if somone else could do a indycar game and it was a whole lot better who would you buy it from. Anyways do you get your software free last I checked it cost $50 to $60 to buy the game and yet your only getting half off what the game can do.I coudnt make the game but they have the tools and the know how and thats why they do it and beleive me they wouldnt do it if they wernt making money, would you. your just a number in sales and nothing more.

I don't want to sound stupid but what patch?

the lame thing is I race modem on ICR2 at least 3 times a week and every race gets messed up by the yellow flag crap. I didnt pay $50 for this ***did I?

I know nothing about Sierra's financial situation. Do you really believe this? You think that a game like Nascar can be cranked out quickly, then the company sits on it instead of selling it? I hope this was a joke. Papyrus is releasing the patch for free, how is that 'trying to make money?' If all Sierra wanted to do was make money from us, they would release a new version of the game and make you pay another 50 bucks instead of making it a patch for existing users. I don't think that the guys at Papyrus are my friends, nor do I think they're greedy scum-sucking bastards. I don't know them. But I like getting things for free. I work. I just bought myself a new Pentium Pro system. I'm also in college (on summer 'break' right now of course.) I don't believe in doing any job halfway either. If I make a mistake or do something wrong I own up to it and make things right, as i'm sure Papyrus will do based on their past postings here. But nobody is giving them a chance to explain themselves. It's true that Papyrus doesn't have any direct competition in the driving sim market. If there was a better product out, i'd own it. My whole point is that you said you expect software to be bug-free and perfect when it first comes out. Not even a company with the money and resources of Microsoft can do that; witness Windows 95. Indycar 2 is very playable, and does everything it's supposed to do. Papyrus hasn't made any false claims about it's capabilities. I still remember back in the 80's when software companies would release buggy, unusable software, and go right out of business. These days that doesn't happen too often, luckily. When a company releases a product, patches the bugs, and even talks with users, i'm more than happy because I remember how things used to be. When I see people whine and complain that a patch isn't out on time, I think they must not have been really ripped off yet. Good customer support is still a bonus, not the norm, in this industry.

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>>If your boss came up to you one day at work (assuming you DO have a job) and >>said, "For all the money I pay you, you should do everything right the first >>time, no excuses!", what would your response be? >Do you have a job? Because that is the goal. Corporate America is not >looking for excuses, its looking for people who can take >responsibilty.

I suppose I should have left the 'no excuses' part out. I don't believe in excuses either; I got enough of them from Quantex (computer maker) to make me cancel my order with them. I believe that people decide their own fates by their actions. People are jumping all over Papyrus on the weekend, when they aren't open. I'm waiting for an official explanation (or lack of one) on Monday or Tuesday before I make up my mind about them. Whining doesn't do anything but tell Papyrus we're a bunch of whiners, and there's sure a lot of it going on in this group.

On 22 Jun 1996 22:32:59 GMT, jennifer gonzalez >Man , you act as if software is cheap. For the price you have to >pay it should be right the first time. So stick that in your pipe >ans smoke it. Jennifer, software is not cheap, yes. It should be right. But YOU tell me how you get AI in racing sims to be 100% correct, as well as traction, etc. Because then I would write a program that would simulate responses for people in this newsgroup and then I wouldn't have to get on line and waste my time reading all the complaints. :)

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>>Man , you act as if software is cheap. For the price you have to >>pay it should be right the first time. So stick that in your pipe >>ans smoke it. >If your boss came up to you one day at work (assuming you DO have a job) and >said, "For all the money I pay you, you should do everything right the first >time, no excuses!", what would your response be?

"You've hired me to perform to the best of my ability, and if you're not happy with my results, then we need to sit down and discuss what can be done to make a difference." Jobs are not right 100% of the time, the first time. But you don't flame the employee for it. You work with them to correct their mistakes (patches) and help them learn from them. If everyone had to be right the first time, we'd all be unemployed.

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>>If your boss came up to you one day at work (assuming you DO have a job) and >>said, "For all the money I pay you, you should do everything right the first >>time, no excuses!", what would your response be? >Do you have a job? Because that is the goal. Corporate America is not >looking for excuses, its looking for people who can take >responsibilty.

Responsibility...um, like, a patch release? Because that's what you're saying. Papyrus made some changes to their program and their going to take responsibility and release it, instead of leaving the sim like it is and say the hell with it. Sounds like ownership of the situation to me. And yes, I have a job, but if I were always right the first time 100% of the time, I'd be God, but I know I'm not, and besides, I think someone else in this newsgroup has already laid claim to that title.

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>>>If your boss came up to you one day at work (assuming you DO have a job) and >>>said, "For all the money I pay you, you should do everything right the first >>>time, no excuses!", what would your response be? >>Do you have a job? Because that is the goal. Corporate America is not >>looking for excuses, its looking for people who can take >>responsibilty. >I suppose I should have left the 'no excuses' part out. I don't believe in >excuses either; I got enough of them from Quantex (computer maker) to make me >cancel my order with them. I believe that people decide their own fates by >their actions. People are jumping all over Papyrus on the weekend, when they >aren't open. I'm waiting for an official explanation (or lack of one) on Monday >or Tuesday before I make up my mind about them. Whining doesn't do anything but >tell Papyrus we're a bunch of whiners, and there's sure a lot of it going on in >this group.

What do you have to make up your mind about? If the patch is released anytime in the near future, you should be happy. Just the fact that you're willing to wait shows you have patience. I just hope the folks at Sierra/Papyrus do too, because the whiners here don't and they want it now. I just want an end to the flames against Papyrus.

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 18:18:12 -0400, "Bruno Amaral"

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>I don't think so because when it comes to the customer you can't afford to >not do it right the first time. This goes for everything - ie. you buy a >car - 3 months later the brakes malfunction and you plow into a wall. You >the designer (or builder) can not come out after and say oooops. >Everything should be released when it is ready and not before just to >bring in the bucks. That is the problem. These companies release half ass >done programs and expect us to put up with the program until it is fixed >when they feel it should be fixed. Just take the extra time and DO IT >RIGHT THE FIRST TIME..........

What do you consider right the first time when it comes to trying to program artificial intelligence and all the variables in physical surfaces and the ever-changing newtonian laws as they react with and against your indycar? I'd like to see you get anything close to that right the first time. My job requires me to be correct, but I don't lose my job if I make a mistake. We all learn from it, set an example so others don't (like note the fix and move on with life), and consider it experience I now have to carry with me to the next project. Papyrus/Sierra's only mistake was trying to announce a soft release date for the patch, and people in this newsgroup are making them pay for it way more than they should, instead of exercising some patience.

You just answered your own question. No one said when they were going to release it (as in an exact day). Rick or Ed have been kind enough to speak to the end of this week or next, but if there was an exact date, show me where.

On 24 Jun 1996 03:05:04 GMT, jennifer gonzalez

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>Think about it if somone else could do a indycar game and it was a whole >lot better who would you buy it from. Anyways do you get your software >free last I checked it cost $50 to $60 to buy the game and yet >your only getting half off what the game can do.I coudnt make the game >but they have the tools and the know how and thats why they do it and >beleive me they wouldnt do it if they wernt making money, would you. >your just a number in sales and nothing more.

Jennifer, what half of the game didn't I get? I'd say I got a whole lot more than that. If the patch were fixing over 50% of the sim, I'd say it's a new sim and not just a fix. The only thing complaining about it does is say to Sierra and Papyrus they shouldn't even bother and tell us the approximate release dates for patches. As for the tools, I restate my earlier post...how do you get human artificial driving intelligence and physical track conditions 100% right 100% of the time?

>Is 7 months specific enough? I can only imagine their payroll if they >have been working overtime since December to get a patch out. I for >one am glad I contributed so early to the effort (Nov. 28). My money >is being well spent.....Not! >And how do you know how hard they've been working? Seven months from when? And did you get the exact release date back then or what? I'd like to see that e-mail or post or whatever you have to substantiate that claim. How hard? Just ask, like I did. And if you say they're just a bunch of liars or exaggerating the facts, then I'd say you're a pessimist by nature or paranoid. Not an attack on you, just an assumption of reading your response.

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 00:02:45 GMT, billy wardrope >surely if you pay for something a patch shouldn't be needed as it, by >rights, should work properly in the first place... I agree for tic-tac-toe games, but a simulation? How close can you get to perfect the first time?

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>>>I agree that there wasn't a specific date mentioned...just "about the >>>middle of June". >>There was a date mentioned of "a couple of weeks" WAY back just after >>Christmas. I wouldn't be so annoyed about this if I wasn't 99.9% >>convinced that the patch has been delayed to allow work on NASCAR2, >>Hawaii, Mac-ICR2, Rendition-ICR2, Win95-ICR2 and even Road Rash. >I tend to think the delays (and a whole lot else) happened because of >the Sierra takeover.

If I had one more thing to say (which I do), then it would be YES. That last statement is how I feel. One more reason we should be patient. Takeovers, buyouts, and mergers are never pretty, and usually delay any work in progress, I agree. But reading how impatient some people are in here doesn't make it any easier for the rest of us to get on with the legitimate posts and wait patiently. I guess I just got fed up with the whiners and LOOK, I became one myself. How cruel a fate can that be?

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>I might be a bit relaxed in my response, but SHUT THE HELL UP WITH >YOUR GRIPING!!!! You go and try to do it yourself and see when you >can release it, free of charge, no new bugs, etc. I don't even >remember a specific date, only end of this week or next, but even if >there was one mentioned, you've got a lot of nerve ***ing about >something you don't even know everythin about! Maybe you'd like to >stop for a second and think about all the people at Papyrus working >hard to produce a quality product, patch, working late hours just to >please people like you who will never give a damn anyway. That must >make their day brighter, I'm sure...

To all of you out there, I apologize. Not to the whiners. Not to the impatiently abusive. Just to those of you who don't need to see this kind of reaction but know better than to react to all of the complainers in here. I just got tired of reading adolescent whining and crying and let my emotions get the better of me. I've said my piece, will take my "pipe and smoke it" (Jennifer) as is, and patiently wait for Sierra/Papyrus to get their patch released. My life does not revolve around it, and I am grateful for any release that can further my enjoyment of ICR2. That, IMHO, is the key. I enjoy playing it now, and have learned to live with the inconsistencies, because I realize trying to program things like AI and the laws of physics to run on my PC is a feat in itself. Thank you, and again, apologies to those with a conscience. KS

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>I am sure Rick was sincere; maybe he did get caught with a bigger job >than he expected, but I feel secure it is either done or he is working >on it as we speak. >But Sierra, on the other hand, seems to have no clue as to what is >going on with ICR2. A friendly email to them asking about the patch >might spur them a bit.

The patch is in QA now. It has to go through Sierra's QA before they will put it up on the web site. Looks like about Thursday or so at this rate... :-(. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line, Inc.

writes: You remember incorrectly. The patch was not finished months ago; I did say that we probably wouldn't have the patch ready until the Windows 95 version shipped, which was true. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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>The patch is in QA now. It has to go through Sierra's QA before they will >put it up on the web site. Looks like about Thursday or so at this rate... >:-(. >Rick Genter >Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II >Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Rick, with all the flack going around here, it's great that you can give us a rough release date, and it's appreciated, because we know you're doing your best to keep us informed; however, you've seen what can happen when that suggested day goes by...

Kyle Stevens Writes: Why don't you all just give up and Get NASCAR and be done with it. Get on HAWAII and have a ball. That would get rid of this CLutter in THIS GROUP. :-) Tim Daley

On 24 Jun 1996 03:05:04 GMT, jennifer gonzalez [long useless self-serving diatribe snipped] It occurs to me that anyone reading this thread that has any objectivity and maturity whatsoever would do two things: 1) Be nauseated and dismayed at the incredible display of whining, name-calling, and one-upmanship in arguments such as the previous post 2) Never, ever, EVER again get involved with self-righteous consumers who posture themselves as the corporate God who all manufacturers must satiate. One word before I leave this thread altogether -- notwithstanding Ed, Rick, and Charlie's incredible contributions to this newsgroup, notwithstanding Thrustmaster's invaluable customer support, et al., NONE of these software companies are obligated to even make a product that WORKS, let alone release patches for it. Have you ever heard of the term "buyer beware"? Did anyone ever force you at gunpoint to buy IndyCar? I have news for you, brother/sister, you plunk down that money of your own free will. The Internet may be great for letting every Tom,***, and Harry complain to the world, but that doesn't change the fact that you're responsible for your own purchases. Read your licensing agreement in your IndyCar Racing box -- does it say ANYTHING in there to the tune of "Papyrus is obligated by the conditions of this license to release patches whenever the users ask for them, is obligated to receive reams of e-mail complaining how they suck, and must incorporate EVERY requested feature into their simulators"? All this sanctimonious horse hockey that is spewing from these sim buyers who feel their bill of rights has been violated by Microprose or Sierra is good for only one thing -- wasting bandwidth. And really, it disgusts me. -- IWCCCARS Project Coordinator http://www.xmission.com/~iwcc/project.htm Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

You called? ;) _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm\::/ \._______\

Simple - You listen to your beta testers. According to the testers, some (not all) of these bugs were well known, but nevertheless the software was shipped out in time for Christmas. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm\::/ \._______\

No, I disagree. The mistake Papyrus made/are making was in taking 8 months (!!!) to write a patch which should have been made within a month of the release of the original flawed version. On the other hand, perhaps it wasn't a mistake. It allowed resources to be directed elsewhere, and they obviously predicted correctly that most of the people on the group would be so happy to eventually get a patch that they wouldn't be upset, in fact would defend them I'm severely hacked off with that "executive decision", but I'm obviously in a minority. Anyway, that's water under the bridge now, and I no longer care about the patch. My interest in ICR2 waned long ago when I couldn't make races, and I'll soon have GP2 to replace it. A couple of days extra waiting for the patch after my 8 month vigil means nothing one way or the other. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm\::/ \._______\

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>The patch is in QA now. It has to go through Sierra's QA before they will >put it up on the web site. Looks like about Thursday or so at this rate... >:-(. >Rick Genter >Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II >Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Thanks Rick! Your "keeping us posted" on the status is all thats important to me. Ron

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:43:14 +0100, John Wallace >On the other hand, perhaps it wasn't a mistake. It allowed resources to >be directed elsewhere, and they obviously predicted correctly that most >of the people on the group would be so happy to eventually get a patch >that they wouldn't be upset, in fact would defend them I'm severely >hacked off with that "executive decision", but I'm obviously in a >minority. True. But when you get down to brass tacks, we're all in the minority in terms of firepower, but the majority in terms of having no patch. P.S. Loved the God reply! KS

On Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:45:47 +0100, John Wallace

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>>Jennifer, software is not cheap, yes. It should be right. But YOU >>tell me how you get AI in racing sims to be 100% correct, as well as >>traction, etc. >Simple - You listen to your beta testers. >According to the testers, some (not all) of these bugs were well known, >but nevertheless the software was shipped out in time for Christmas. >Cheers! >John

Yow! If that's the case, then the case is closed as far as I'm concerned. I can wait, and my venting at the patch whiners has ceased. It means I've been more patient than I ever thought! KS

I hope this doesn't turn out to be a marketing ploy on the part of Sierra. Last week Rick said that the patch/upgrade/whatever you want to call it, has gone to production. The local Walden Software has had the empty Win95/Mac ICR2 box on display for over a week now. I will be greatly dissapointed in Sierra if the delay in posting the patch is a ploy to boost sales. I did pay for a flawed program and do not plan on paying again to get it working properly. It is their responsibility to correct the errors in their software. If they want to release a patch that does nothing more than fix the DOS version and then sell the Win95/Mac version That would be fine. Then I have the choice of whether or not I want the new version and still have a properly working DOS version. Oh well, it should be interesting to see what happens this week.

Yes, and I think I started the whole thing when I responded to the initial post. Yes, and I think that's what irritated me the most when I started the whole response thing. Me, too. And I think I started the whole thing when I responded to the initial post. I repeat that because I should've know better than to get involved emotionally. This is my last post on the subject, and all further correspondence will be constructively placed in another thread. >--

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>Where the hell is the patch ....we have waited long enough for the patch >can you guys at Papyrus get your act together ....When INDYCAR 2 was first >released I made the statment" INDYCAR II TOTAL ***"and everbody said WHY????? >NOW THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS WHY ....Lets change the statment to" INDYCAR II TOTAL >WOW GREAT CANT LIVE WITHOUT IT" fix the grip problem and all the other faults >and lets get on with what could be the best sim around .you guys said buy 21st >June your time is over ....start bullshiting us again

This is my attempt at the new thread for the ICR2 patch discussion raging in this newsgroup (or at least I'm trying to get on with life and take the suggestion to move it out of the previous thread). If you really want to make people happy, let this one go (like I didn't and how I've paid!). I'm done with it, but it's the least I can do to help out with everyone who wanted it moved. I'd really like to see it die, so if this is the only post I read here, I'll be a happy man (and a guilty one, at that). If not, then take your chances. My sincere apologies to those who didn't let their emotions get the better of them, and to those who offered decent criticism and debate, I thank you for showing your interest (one way or the other). I guess I've wasted my 15 minutes in the sun, and spent more than my 2 cents worth in doing so...

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>Responsibility...um, like, a patch release? Because that's what >you're saying. Papyrus made some changes to their program and their >going to take responsibility and release it, instead of leaving the >sim like it is and say the hell with it. >Sounds like ownership of the situation to me. And yes, I have a job, >but if I were always right the first time 100% of the time, I'd be >God, but I know I'm not, and besides, I think someone else in this >newsgroup has already laid claim to that title.

Your right!!! I never thought about it like that. A patch certainly qualifies as a responsible action.................................. (reality setting in) Hey, wait a minute. THE PATCH HAS NOT BEEN RELEASED YET!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ITS BEEN 8 MONTHS. EIGHT!!! 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 Months. Thats 4 months shy of a year. Your right, thats responsibilty! And this is coming from someone who loves the game!

>The patch is in QA now. It has to go through Sierra's QA before they will >put it up on the web site. Looks like about Thursday or so at this rate... >:-(. Thanks for the info, Rick! You've done your part, now its up to Sierra.

Your right , since you have an opinion about everything. I guess I'll sell my copy of indycar2 since the yellows are messed up and isn't very realistic anyways . Hopefully nascar 2 will work properly. Sorry if some people get to emotional about things that shouldn't be that importnat anyway. This is last you will here from me on icr2. Go nascar , The only Good race sim.

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>Kyle Stevens Writes: >>Rick, with all the flack going around here, it's great that you can >>give us a rough release date, and it's appreciated, because we know >>you're doing your best to keep us informed; however, you've seen what >>can happen when that suggested day goes by... >Why don't you all just give up and Get NASCAR and be done with it. Get >on HAWAII and have a ball. That would get rid of this CLutter in THIS >GROUP. :-) >Tim Daley

NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They'll all want to play at Taly and try to win on the first lap! The server is busy enough as it is. Just think of the delay online waiting for one of the pick-up taly races to finish. :) Karl The 'DobeMan' Nass 96 'BGN B'

On 25 Jun 1996 04:42:55 GMT, jennifer gonzalez >Your right , since you have an opinion about everything. No, not really. But sometimes the desire to speak up about something means you're going to hear from people in this newsgroup. But if I have an opinion, it is merely one regarding this topic and the replies that have been generated following the original post, and nothing else. I'm trying to keep my outbursts down to a minimum, though, since it's not my normal mode of operation. I guess you can say this one just got to me, although I'm only replying if I can say something nice...so, thanks for your thoughts on the matter. That's my pipe to smoke, m'dear. Nothing more, nothing less. By choice.

> Man , you act as if software is cheap. For the price you have to > pay it should be right the first time. So stick that in your pipe > ans smoke it. Yeah..and there are MILLIONS of lines of code..and to expect it to be perfect is Totally unrealistic. You've obviously never coded or you'd think before you let your fingers type your words of wisdom. BTW..software is inexpensive considering the man hours involved. Finding errors in software is not like building a bridge. In a bridge if it's weak, you know you need to fix the supports. In software, the error for the supports could be anywhere but there. I think all we ask is to be properly communicated to, to be best of their knowledge. Papyrus has done that and more. Do you see anyone from EA talking about NFS? or GP1 or GP2?? I believe that is a retorical question, as it answers itself. And no..I don't work for papyrus. Ken

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>>Where the hell is the patch ....we have waited long enough for the patch >>can you guys at Papyrus get your act together ....When INDYCAR 2 was first >>released I made the statment" INDYCAR II TOTAL ***"and everbody said WHY????? >>NOW THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS WHY ....Lets change the statment to" INDYCAR II TOTAL >>WOW GREAT CANT LIVE WITHOUT IT" fix the grip problem and all the other faults >>and lets get on with what could be the best sim around .you guys said buy 21st >>June your time is over ....start bullshiting us again >This is my attempt at the new thread for the ICR2 patch discussion >raging in this newsgroup (or at least I'm trying to get on with life >and take the suggestion to move it out of the previous thread). If >you really want to make people happy, let this one go (like I didn't >and how I've paid!). >I'm done with it, but it's the least I can do to help out with >everyone who wanted it moved. I'd really like to see it die, so if >this is the only post I read here, I'll be a happy man (and a guilty >one, at that). If not, then take your chances. >My sincere apologies to those who didn't let their emotions get the >better of them, and to those who offered decent criticism and debate, >I thank you for showing your interest (one way or the other). I guess >I've wasted my 15 minutes in the sun, and spent more than my 2 cents >worth in doing so...

Thanks Kyle, This should serve the purpose better and hopefully everyone wishing to elaborate on their opinions regarding the "where is the ICR2 patch" issue will jump in here and conserve all the numerous headers that are generating. My previous post in the ICR2-Win95 Patch - I give up! thread has already brought out what this group seems to becoming more and more say to me: Thank you sir! I should get a life I guess rather than trying to gain knowledge and participate in meaningful discussions based on the sport of auto racing but only to find trash talk and bullshit overloading this newsgroup lately. I will probably soon just forget this group and get my knowledge from the web since too many children seem to be gaining access to this discussion group. Good luck to all that continue this thread as I am sure you are bound to rub somebody wrong out there even if you are trying to voice your opinion in a non-offending manner. This is my final post regarding this issue. I am going to get a life now! Ron

I knew Sierra was the hold up :-). Sierra are like anybody else (media) who is not a dedicated motorsport follower, they couldn't give a shit about it unless somebody dies. > The patch is in QA now. It has to go through Sierra's QA before they will > put it up on the web site. Looks like about Thursday or so at this rate... > :-(. > Rick Genter > Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II > Sierra On-Line, Inc.

>The patch is in QA now. It has to go through Sierra's QA before they will >put it up on the web site. Looks like about Thursday or so at this rate... >:-(. many Thanks Rick .....kinda odd seeing AOL.com out fro your name

: I knew Sierra was the hold up :-). : Sierra are like anybody else (media) who is not a dedicated motorsport : follower, they couldn't give a shit about it unless somebody dies. Ouch!! Actually, the real hold-up was the Papyrus team. The busted their butts to get the Win95/Mac version done by their deadline. Then Rick needed a day or 2 off to get some well deserved sleep. The next job was to create the patch for us. This is not an easy job, especially since Rick said he didn't want to Trash any of our hard-worked setups. Sierra is only doing the Q&A. Now, with all of the flack over releasing "buggy" and not-ready-for-primetime software, would we want them to release a patch that didn't work? Anticipation. . . . With that said, the ball is now in Sierra's court, I want to be racing with ICR2 v1.0.1 by this weekend or . . . -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Ok, I hink we've all let off enough steam about the patch. What appears to have happened is that Rick had finished the patch last week, but didn't realize that Sierra would want to put it through full quality asessment before allowing it to be released. The patch will be out as soon as Sierra has finished it's task .After all we don't want it killing our hard drives, or wiping out all our setups/record times when we install it do we. I agree it has taken a very long time to produce this patch, but that is proably mostly due to the fact that it isn't only a dos patch being released but the win95 version as well. For those of us who already own the game we can download the update to make it work in win95, instead of the dos patch if we want. I think we should all calm down now. I agree that even mild mannered me has sounded off about the delays to the release of the patch, but I'm sure we shall have soon. So lets give it a rest shall we. Papyrus have down us a huge favor by proving a lot of us with hours and hours of racing time, which we otherwise wouldn't have got. So lets be nice to them when they appear to have let us down slightly. Enough waffle, I'll quit Chris Fisher

I'm eager as anyone to get the patch- I have dealt with the anxiety about it by buying Janes' Longbow Apache helicopter sim; It should keep me busy for a week (or two!) until the patch comes. Great sim, BTW- but what a freaking system hog! It would like to use 100 meg of your hard drive! Anyway, having simultaneously the GP2 and ICR2-patch delays... the whole group reminds me of the old saying about waiting for water to boil... we're all just going to have to pretend we're not racing fanatics for a while. I'll try anything- yes, even helicopter sims. Damage 'OFF'!

Screw That !!!! I love Ed & Rick to death for all their input and help on the subjects of Nascar & Indycar2 BUT, They're not rookies at this patch procedure..are they?? To all of us, (me) when Ed says "Rick stayed up all night to finish the patch" means...Here it is ..ENJOY!! Not .."Oh well, now that he's done all we need is another MONTH ???? Where is the stupid thing ???? WHERE, WHERE, WHERE, WHERE, You guys have answers to everything else. Why all the secretism now?? Is it done or isn't it ?? Thats really all we need, is a little explination !!!!! Like WHERE is the stupid thing!! My 2 MORE cents, Mick

Maybe now everyone will stop bashing all AOLers :) Gene

>Your right , since you have an opinion about everything. I guess I'll >sell my copy of indycar2 since the yellows are messed up and isn't >very realistic anyways . How much you want for it? Gene

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>Screw That !!!! > I love Ed & Rick to death for all their input and help on the subjects of >Nascar & Indycar2 BUT, They're not rookies at this patch procedure..are >they?? To all of us, (me) >when Ed says "Rick stayed up all night to finish the patch" means...Here >it is ..ENJOY!! Not .."Oh well, now that he's done all we need is another >MONTH ???? >Where is the stupid thing ???? WHERE, WHERE, WHERE, WHERE, >You guys have answers to everything else. Why all the secretism now?? Is >it done or isn't it ?? Thats really all we need, is a little explination >!!!!! Like WHERE is the stupid thing!! >My 2 MORE cents, >Mick

Actually, what I said was (to paraphrase myself) that Rick & co had stayed up all night finishing the Win 95, Mac & DOC versions of ICR II.. which is now on the shelf. The next step was to produce & test the DOS patch... which is now going on. Sorry for the confusion. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

on. Sorry for the confusion. >> Ed, to clarify, does that mean the DOS=>DOS/Win95 patch? Will the "DOS" patch be the one that also adds DirectX support and the Win95 screens, menus etc? I saw the retail version for Win95/DOS/Mac at the store and had to physically restrain myself from buying it all over again. Really disappointing that newbies are getting the goods now while your loyal supporters sit around on their hands waiting for it indefinitely. I understand your reasons, but as a longtime customer, this is crushing. Randy

You bring up a damn good point - If it's in the stores for all the newbies to buy then why isn't the patch available to those that bought the original - the true supporters? Just goes to show you that once a big corporate company buys you all that matters is the money and forget the supporters...

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>>> The next step was to produce & test the DOS patch... which is now going >on. Sorry for the confusion. >> >Ed, to clarify, does that mean the DOS=>DOS/Win95 patch? Will the "DOS" >patch be the one that also adds DirectX support and the Win95 screens, >menus etc? I saw the retail version for Win95/DOS/Mac at the store and >had to physically restrain myself from buying it all over again. Really >disappointing that newbies are getting the goods now while your loyal >supporters sit around on their hands waiting for it indefinitely. I >understand your reasons, but as a longtime customer, this is crushing. >Randy

"The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS version to Win 95. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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> >>> The next step was to produce & test the DOS patch... which is now going > >on. Sorry for the confusion. >> > >Ed, to clarify, does that mean the DOS=>DOS/Win95 patch? Will the "DOS" > >patch be the one that also adds DirectX support and the Win95 screens, > >menus etc? I saw the retail version for Win95/DOS/Mac at the store and > >had to physically restrain myself from buying it all over again. Really > >disappointing that newbies are getting the goods now while your loyal > >supporters sit around on their hands waiting for it indefinitely. I > >understand your reasons, but as a longtime customer, this is crushing. > >Randy > "The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date > with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has > DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS > version to Win 95. > Ed Martin > Producer, Series Director > NASCAR Racing League > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

I'm really disappointed in this. When I purchased ICR2 for DOS, I was under the assurance that the WIN95 version would be a free upgrade. Now this sounds like the patch will be only a DOS patch? What gives?

: "The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date : with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has : DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS : version to Win 95. FOUL! FOUL! We have been told numerous times by various Papyrus people that we would be receiving a patch to upgrade our DOS version AND a patch to upgrade to the Win95 version! This is one of the reasons many of us were trying to be patient for the release of this infamous patch. This is BAD costumer support. Ed, this is totally unbelievable. Jerk us around for 7 months about a patch for a crippled program. Promise us one thing and then snatch it away on the eve of its delivery. If this is really true, my respect for Papyrus has dropped quite a few notches. I have long been a satisfied and loyal customer of Papyrus' products. I bought and still own every product your company produced. This is not the way to treat the loyal customers who long supported your company and its products. Here is a posting from a highly respected Papyrus ex-employee: --------------------------- begin quoted article ----------------- Subject: Re: Laguna Seca Problems Date: 13 Apr 1996 11:40:20 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 41 NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Status: RO I expect ICR2 for Win95 to be a *really* slick GUI for car setup with a graphics engine that's slower than the DOS one...and I probably won't buy it. ....so fix the product I've bought! Please. Thanks for your attention. <<< [snipping unrelated posting -- Michael] I'm not going to get into a debate about how we schedule work, but I will say that when IndyCar Racing (ICR 1) shipped, it was Papyrus' only project. The same went for NASCAR Racing. With IndyCar Racing II (ICR 2), Papyrus was/is working on six different projects at once. "Generating a patch" is not a trivial matter, certainly not as trivial as people seem to think. The only way we could produce a patch for the DOS version of IndyCar Racing II without further slipping the Windows 95 and Macintosh versions was to coordinate the fixes into the schedule, and that means not being able to release the patch until the Windows 95 and Macintosh versions are released. The good news is that, so far, the Windows 95 version has remained on schedule for a mid-June release (we haven't varied from the schedule by more than a few days in 5 months now). We have a longer beta period scheduled for the Windows 95 version than we did for the DOS version, and we're not under the kind of pressure we were under for the DOS version (though we are under pressure to release before the end of June). So far we've managed to fix the major problems that have been found including the traction bug and the digital/analog throttle disparity, but not the yellow flag problems (I'm working on that next week). [--now the IMPORTANT part-- Michael] And since you bought the DOS version, you don't have to buy the Windows 95 version. You'll be able to download a "patch" for that as well. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc. --------------------------- end of quoted article --------------- -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> >>> The next step was to produce & test the DOS patch... which is now going > >on. Sorry for the confusion. >> > >Ed, to clarify, does that mean the DOS=>DOS/Win95 patch? Will the "DOS" > >patch be the one that also adds DirectX support and the Win95 screens, > >menus etc? I saw the retail version for Win95/DOS/Mac at the store and > >had to physically restrain myself from buying it all over again. Really > >disappointing that newbies are getting the goods now while your loyal > >supporters sit around on their hands waiting for it indefinitely. I > >understand your reasons, but as a longtime customer, this is crushing. > >Randy > "The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date > with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has > DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS > version to Win 95. > Ed Martin > Producer, Series Director > NASCAR Racing League > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

WHAT ?????!!!!!! I was under the impression that the Windows95 upgrade would be included in the patch - and that impression came from Rick Genter, not just rumors on this group. How come someone who buys the product now gets his choice of version, while I'm still stuck with the DOS version?! Half the reason I decided to upgrade from ICRI to ICRII when I did was the assurances from Rick that the Windows95 upgrade would be included in the patch.... Sorry, Ed, you guys are out of line on this one.... Keith Meyer

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>"The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date >with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has >DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS >version to Win 95. >Ed Martin >Producer, Series Director >NASCAR Racing League >Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Do the guys at Papyrus even speak to each other? Up until this post, it has always been maintained by Papyrus that the patch would also upgrade our DOS versions to WIN95 if we so desired. Now your saying it does not? Before I go off on how absurd your organization is, I would really like you to clarify your above statement with respect to our "free upgrade to the WIN95 version"(your words, not mine). Comments?

Wunderbar! Three months ago I drop $45 US for ICR2 after receiving multiple assurances from Mr. Genter that I would not have to drop another stack of cash for the Win95 upgrade. [ie. see mike carver's reply] I'm not one to worry too much about production delays ... they are a fact of life, however, this is different. Ed, if you tell me a Win95 patch is impossible to construct from an economic point of view I will accept that and either use the DOS patch or purchase the Win95 version. If this is not an economic decision of ultimate significance (read: the patch will bankrupt Papyrus/Sierra) please note my disappointment and attempt to understand that although your input in your capacity as a tech-lead at Papyrus/Sierra is often invaluable to this group I do not like being ***ed by dis-information. At its core, this decision appears to be tainted with a modicum of greed. Ed, I ***y well love ICR2 and you all have done a wonderful job. Please expound upon the dashing of hopes and derogation of prior statements in the above terse quote and dispell my concern that this decision was motivated by common avarice. Danka schon, eric suter somewhere near the lonely orb called Sol.

: "The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date : with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has : DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS : version to Win 95. : Ed Martin : Producer, Series Director : NASCAR Racing League : Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. Ed, I truly hope you have "mispoken" about this. Since we were told (at least here in r.a.s. and on America On-Line) by representives of your company that we would receive a "free" patch and upgrade to the DOS/Win95 version of ICR2. If you do not provide such, I sincerely believe this is a breach of contract. I do not think your company would think lightly of me if I promised to send you $60.00 if you sent me a copy of ICR2 and 7 months later I said, "No, I have changed my mind. I will keep the copy of ICR2, but I will only send you $12.50." That would be a breach of contract and you would have m***and legal grounds to attempt to retrieve $47.50 from me. Your company made a decision to delay developing a patch for the DOS version of ICR2 so you could devote work to the Win95/Mac version. In that sense I see myself and other ICR2 DOS owners as having financed the Win95/Mac version. After 7 months of your having had my investment "funds", I feel you are morally obligated to return us a dividend on that investment. All we are expecting for this dividend is what we were told we would receive, a free patch and upgrade to the Win95 version. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> > "The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date > > with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has > > DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS > > version to Win 95. > > Ed Martin > > Producer, Series Director > > NASCAR Racing League > > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. > WHAT ?????!!!!!! I was under the impression that the Windows95 upgrade > would be included in the patch - and that impression came from Rick > Genter, not just rumors on this group. > How come someone who buys the product now gets his choice of version, > while I'm still stuck with the DOS version?! Half the reason I decided > to upgrade from ICRI to ICRII when I did was the assurances from Rick > that the Windows95 upgrade would be included in the patch.... > Sorry, Ed, you guys are out of line on this one.... > Keith Meyer

Keith, I recommend you take my stand on this one...I don't give a damn about the Win95 version until at least 75% of the people running this version report back that the frame rate is at least as good as the DOS version, especially from those running a Matrox Millennium (my card). I fully expect the Win95 version to be all GUI, no action. If I'm wrong, then brand me "village idiot" and I'll go hide under a rock. On the other hand, if running the Win95 version is the only way to play a "Hawaii for ICR2", then I'll have to meekly line up to install it, and bite the bullet on the frame rate. Neil -- Meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

Shades of Sierra and their annual update to Football Pro 9X. I realise that Sierra claims this is do to NFL Licensing agreements. I wonder if this will be blamed on CART agreements. Regardless, if this is true, Sierra/Papyrus will have lost a loyal customer here. I too own every product Papyrus has ever released, and many from Sierra. The reason I haven't been bad-mouthing Papyrus over these many months (unlike so many others) waiting for the fix is that I understood that this was to be much more then just a fix for the major bugs. If this is to be nothing more than a DOS fix, then the delay for the patch is completely unjustified. It seems logical to me that a patch for a seriously flawed current version should be released before a new version ships. This is extremely poor customer support.

<<"The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS version to Win 95.>> I'm sure that, by now, I'm not the only person to comment on this but nothing has reached my NNTP server yet. We have been led to believe, since ICRII hit retail, that "the patch" was going to: A) Fix the traction "undocumented feature" in the game and... B) Upgrade the DOS version to the Win95 platform. If this isn't so, why has nobody corrected our assumptions? We've been going on and on about this for the better part of 4-5 months now and have seen no sign that this was going to be DOS only and no upgrade to Win95. This is just simplt ridiculous! It's bad enough when an employer gets information wrong to his employees but when two employees of the same employer have two different stories it leads us to have little faith in those making products for us. This is quite a blow... Nick ____________________________________________________________________ #6 (will he be #28 in '97?) and #94 in the *real* quest for the Cup! My home away from home... http://www.mindspring.com/~ntotoro/ ____________________________________________________________________

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> : "The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date > : with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has > : DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS > : version to Win 95. > : Ed Martin > : Producer, Series Director > : NASCAR Racing League > : Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. > Ed, I truly hope you have "mispoken" about this. Since we were told (at > least here in r.a.s. and on America On-Line) by representives of your > company that we would receive a "free" patch and upgrade to the > DOS/Win95 version of ICR2. If you do not provide such, I sincerely > believe this is a breach of contract. > I do not think your company would think lightly of me if I promised to > send you $60.00 if you sent me a copy of ICR2 and 7 months later I said, > "No, I have changed my mind. I will keep the copy of ICR2, but I will > only send you $12.50." That would be a breach of contract and you would > have m***and legal grounds to attempt to retrieve $47.50 from me. > Your company made a decision to delay developing a patch for the DOS > version of ICR2 so you could devote work to the Win95/Mac version. In > that sense I see myself and other ICR2 DOS owners as having financed > the Win95/Mac version. After 7 months of your having had my investment > "funds", I feel you are morally obligated to return us a dividend on > that investment. All we are expecting for this dividend is what we were > told we would receive, a free patch and upgrade to the Win95 version. > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hear hear! Papyrus should have put out the damn DOS patch months ago, well prior to the release of the Win95 version. They should have patched the DOS version before continuing coding the Win95 game, and should easily have been out before Christmas. Now, as I recall, prior to the actual release of ICR2, Rick Genter had said that the game would ship with a coupon for the upgrade to the Win95 version. When I brought the game home a few days later, there was no coupon in the box. A couple of e-mails got me no further on info regarding this coupon. Now we know why... -- Meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

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>: "The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date >: with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has >: DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS >: version to Win 95. >FOUL! FOUL! We have been told numerous times by various Papyrus people >that we would be receiving a patch to upgrade our DOS version AND a >patch to upgrade to the Win95 version! This is one of the reasons many >of us were trying to be patient for the release of this infamous patch. >This is BAD costumer support. Ed, this is totally unbelievable. Jerk >us around for 7 months about a patch for a crippled program. Promise us >one thing and then snatch it away on the eve of its delivery.

I agree, I was under the impression of a Win95 patch from Day 1. I remember when ICR2 was shipping last year we were told of a "coupon" to upgrade to the Win95 version, then there was no coupon, but a "promise" that a patch would be available. Now we are told that is not going to be. If this is true, I am highly disappointed in Papyrus/Sierra. This is bull. I feel like everyone else in that the LOYAL customers that paid for ICR2 MANY months ago to assure good sales in good faith that they would give us the Win95 patch, have been SCREWED. I feel we should demand the upgrade. If it is not given as promised, I can guarantee that I will never buy any Papyrus/Sierra products again. Craig Marcho

>I knew Sierra was the hold up :-). >Sierra are like anybody else (media) who is not a dedicated motorsport >follower, they couldn't give a shit about it unless somebody dies. Bzzzt! Wrong answer. The holdup has been at Papyrus; not really a holdup at that, just people doing their jobs. Converting final WINDOWS code into a releasable DOS patch was not a trivial exercise. The patch is in QA _at Papryus_. After that is completed, the patch will be sent to Sierra, and Sierra will do final testing. Someone from Papyrus will post on RAS as soon as the patch is available for download. Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group.

>). It (the patch) does not change the DOS >version to Win 95. >Ed Martin >Producer, Series Director >NASCAR Racing League >Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. Ed, you are going to get skewered for this. The Win95 version was explicitly promised as a free download patch as early as December '95. (and numerious times after that).

> Ok, I hink we've all let off enough steam about the patch. I think the consumers have just begun. This is not slight. Dear Sierra/Papyrus. Do NOT make this mistake. If you had no intention of following through with what Mr. Genter had promised in this newsgroup, you should have made the correction immediately. By letting it go for months, you have fueled a fire which you cannot put out with rhetoric or empty jargon. I'm curious... was there theoretically something to be gained by this?? It didn't work. Mike

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>> Ok, I hink we've all let off enough steam about the patch. >I think the consumers have just begun. >> So lets be nice to them when they appear to have let us down slightly. >This is not slight. >Dear Sierra/Papyrus. >Do NOT make this mistake. >If you had no intention of following through with what Mr. Genter had promised >in this newsgroup, you should have made the correction immediately. >By letting it go for months, you have fueled a fire which you cannot put out >with rhetoric or empty jargon. >I'm curious... was there theoretically something to be gained by this?? > It didn't work. >Mike

Mike, I've posted info in other threads regarding this... here's the latest... The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update. Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send back your old CD & we'll send out a new one". It's certainly not that we had no intention of following through on what Rick said. Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to make. Regardless, I will let you know more as soon as I know more. Please follow the other threads. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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>> "The patch" is a DOS-only patch. It brings the DOS version up to date >> with the DOS version in the retail package you saw (that package has >> DOS Win 95 & Mac on 1 CD). It (the patch) does not change the DOS >> version to Win 95. >> Ed Martin >> Producer, Series Director >> NASCAR Racing League >> Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. >I'm really disappointed in this. When I purchased ICR2 for DOS, I was >under the assurance that the WIN95 version would be a free upgrade. Now >this sounds like the patch will be only a DOS patch? What gives?

I also find this extremely disappointing, and as far as I can tell, misleading by Papyrus as well. I was certainly under the impression that the Win95 patch was going to be downloadable for DOS users too, based on many statements to that effect from Papyrus employees over the last severl months. It's the same damn game right? Why the hell should early adopters be penalized and forced to stay on the DOS platform? I can't think of any reason at all, except for a blatant cash-grab by Sierra/Papyrus. This makes me even less impressed by the fact that we've had to wait seven months to get a working DOS version (that's still not here), so that Papyrus could work on a seperate, Win95 project that we now find out has absolutely nothing to do with us. There was a time when I would buy any Papyrus game, unseen, but this experience has soured me. They're off working on new products instead of supporting their existing customers and that just plain sucks, frankly. It is a very poor way to treat your loyal customers. Joe

>major bugs. If this is to be nothing more than a DOS fix, then the delay for >the patch is completely unjustified. It seems logical to me that a patch for >a seriously flawed current version should be released before a new version >ships. This is extremely poor customer support. Exactly. It's inexcusable, the kind of behaviour I'd expect from a company that doesn't give a damn about their current customers. This probably won't prevent me from buying future Papyrus products, but I will certainly not buy them "sight unseen" as I would have before. I will wait and research it carefully first, to see if it is buggy. And if it is, I will not buy it until a patch is available, period. Joe

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>>). It (the patch) does not change the DOS >>version to Win 95. >>Ed Martin >>Producer, Series Director >>NASCAR Racing League >>Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. >Ed, you are going to get skewered for this. The Win95 version was >explicitly promised as a free download patch as early as December '95. >(and numerious times after that).

Ya, I would have been pretty pissed, the idea of getting the win95 version took the edge off of 7 months of waiting... And guess what: this is what Ed is telling us. I frankly don't think it is too bad- in fact, I am really psyched to get a CD with the clean version on it!!!! ________________quoted stuff follows___________________

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>OK... here's the latest... >The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update. >Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide >current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide >for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send >back your old CD & we'll send out a new one. >That's all the details I have for now. As soon as I know more, so >will you! >Ed Martin >Producer, Series Director >NASCAR Racing League >Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

: It's certainly not that we had no intention of following through on : what Rick said. Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said : because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to : make. Ed, now that Rick is gone, let's not make him the scapegoat. Your company is known to monitor this newsgroup. The intentions were also made known on American On-Line by other Papyrus representives than Rick. If the "official" decision was not to go through wth the plans we would/should have seen posts saying such. I have followed the whole thing here on r.a.s. and on Papyrus's official AOL area. Rick can not be left the one holding the bag. This apparently was a "last minute" decision. Papyrus/Sierra obviously does not want to spend the "man-hours" it would take to create a Win95 upgrade/patch. Instead they want us to pay them for costs plus a small margin to get the upgrade/patch. I am willing to pay for postage, anything over and beyond that is totally uncalled for. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

...just another heads up to Sierra/Papyrus.... Your not-so-loyal-anymore-since-we've-been-burnt customers will complain in a forum that's much larger than just a newsgroup. Don't play the game. Fix this now. Mike

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>: It's certainly not that we had no intention of following through on >: what Rick said. Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said >: because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to >: make. >Ed, now that Rick is gone, let's not make him the scapegoat. Your >company is known to monitor this newsgroup. The intentions were also >made known on American On-Line by other Papyrus representives than Rick. >If the "official" decision was not to go through wth the plans we >would/should have seen posts saying such. >I have followed the whole thing here on r.a.s. and on Papyrus's official >AOL area. Rick can not be left the one holding the bag. This >apparently was a "last minute" decision. Papyrus/Sierra obviously does >not want to spend the "man-hours" it would take to create a Win95 >upgrade/patch. Instead they want us to pay them for costs plus a small >margin to get the upgrade/patch. I am willing to pay for postage, >anything over and beyond that is totally uncalled for. >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

We're not making Rick the scapegoat by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just trying to let everyone know the situation & that we're trying to take care of it as best we can. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

> >: It's certainly not that we had no intention of following through on > >: what Rick said. Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said > >: because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to > >: make. > >Ed, now that Rick is gone, let's not make him the scapegoat. Snip! Note that the first statement above, "Rick was in no position to..." was made on July 1st, the first business day after Rick left the company. Why didn't you speak to him about it prior to his leaving Papyrus? Why did you wait until he left to say something like that? Here is Rick's old sig: ---- Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc. ---- => Does this say anywhere "The opinions expressed are my own and not those of Papyrus Design Group, Inc." ??? Nope...this says "I'm Rick Genter, and I'm speaking for Papyrus". Does this make it legally binding? Maybe. Does it make it morally binding? Absolutely. Rick wasn't the only Papyrus staffer monitoring this newsgroup. If his statements were untrue, they would have been retracted months and months ago. Sierra/Papyrus better own up to this one. It's bad enough you guys didn't put out the DOS patch back in December when you should have. Not once have I seen a post from anybody at Papyrus say, "Sorry guys, we blew it, we have too much on our plate, and a schedule to meet". All we ever got was, "The Patch will be out with the Windows95 release in mid June..wait for it". Is this going to be your attitude with Nascar2? The product is out the door, let's dump the code and get on with the next project? If so, I'll wait until it hits the $9.99 bargain bin, and then I'll shoplift it. Neil -- Meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

>Ya, I would have been pretty pissed, the idea of getting the win95 >version took the edge off of 7 months of waiting... >And guess what: this is what Ed is telling us. I frankly don't think >it is too bad- in fact, I am really psyched to get a CD with the clean >version on it!!!! Only if it has the DOS version too on it too - I will not give up my DOS version to get the Win95 version (which Papyrus repeatedly promised for free on this newsgroup). On some computers/setups the Win95 version sucks rocks. I want to try it (as I was promised), but I don't want to give up my DOS-CD, since I am then screwed if I ever need to re-install the DOS version. Joe

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>: It's certainly not that we had no intention of following through on >: what Rick said. Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said >: because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to >: make. >Ed, now that Rick is gone, let's not make him the scapegoat. Your >company is known to monitor this newsgroup. The intentions were also >made known on American On-Line by other Papyrus representives than Rick. >If the "official" decision was not to go through wth the plans we >would/should have seen posts saying such. >I have followed the whole thing here on r.a.s. and on Papyrus's official >AOL area. Rick can not be left the one holding the bag. This >apparently was a "last minute" decision. Papyrus/Sierra obviously does >not want to spend the "man-hours" it would take to create a Win95 >upgrade/patch. Instead they want us to pay them for costs plus a small >margin to get the upgrade/patch. I am willing to pay for postage, >anything over and beyond that is totally uncalled for.

I agree completely with your post. Many Papyrus employees promised the Win95 patch would be downloadable, it clearly was a policy decision that had been made by Papyrus. Overturned now, I suspect by pin-headed bean counters at Sierra, who don't understand things like customer loyalty and keeping promises. The one person in all this who is clearly NOT to blame is Rick Genter, and leaving him holding the bag (especially since he's left Papyrus) is an extremely low blow, and competely uncalled for. Ed, I know you're a decent and honest guy, but you owe Rick an apology. Joe

On Tue, 02 Jul 1996 20:32:07 -0400, Neil Yeatman

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> Here is Rick's old sig: > ---- > Rick Genter > Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II > Papyrus Design Group, Inc. > ---- > => Does this say anywhere "The opinions expressed are my own and not those > of Papyrus Design Group, Inc." ??? >Nope...this says "I'm Rick Genter, and I'm speaking for Papyrus". Does this >make it legally binding? Maybe. Does it make it morally binding? Absolutely. >Rick wasn't the only Papyrus staffer monitoring this newsgroup. If his >statements were untrue, they would have been retracted months and months ago. >Sierra/Papyrus better own up to this one. >It's bad enough you guys didn't put out the DOS patch back in December when you >should have. Not once have I seen a post from anybody at Papyrus say, "Sorry >guys, we blew it, we have too much on our plate, and a schedule to meet". All >we ever got was, "The Patch will be out with the Windows95 release in mid >June..wait for it". >Is this going to be your attitude with Nascar2? The product is out the door, >let's dump the code and get on with the next project? If so, I'll wait until >it hits the $9.99 bargain bin, and then I'll shoplift it. >Neil >-- >Meek and obedient you follow the leader >down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. > Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

HEY A MOB SEEMS TO BE FORMING. Pass an application form and a pick handle please..... :-) Craig ****************************************************************************** Canberra, Australia IVL Toys-R-Us #43 Pontiac - Rick Higbee Motorsports http://www.ozemail.com.au/~hoppy1 ******************************************************************************

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>> >: It's certainly not that we had no intention of following through on >> >: what Rick said. Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said >> >: because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to >> >: make. >> >Ed, now that Rick is gone, let's not make him the scapegoat. >Snip! >> We're not making Rick the scapegoat by any stretch of the imagination. >> I'm just trying to let everyone know the situation & that we're trying >> to take care of it as best we can. >> Ed Martin >> Producer, Series Director >> NASCAR Racing League >> Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. >Note that the first statement above, "Rick was in no position to..." was >made on July 1st, the first business day after Rick left the company. Why >didn't you speak to him about it prior to his leaving Papyrus? Why did >you wait until he left to say something like that? > Here is Rick's old sig: > ---- > Rick Genter > Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II > Papyrus Design Group, Inc. > ---- > => Does this say anywhere "The opinions expressed are my own and not those > of Papyrus Design Group, Inc." ??? >Nope...this says "I'm Rick Genter, and I'm speaking for Papyrus". Does this >make it legally binding? Maybe. Does it make it morally binding? Absolutely. >Rick wasn't the only Papyrus staffer monitoring this newsgroup. If his >statements were untrue, they would have been retracted months and months ago. >Sierra/Papyrus better own up to this one. >It's bad enough you guys didn't put out the DOS patch back in December when you >should have. Not once have I seen a post from anybody at Papyrus say, "Sorry >guys, we blew it, we have too much on our plate, and a schedule to meet". All >we ever got was, "The Patch will be out with the Windows95 release in mid >June..wait for it". >Is this going to be your attitude with Nascar2? The product is out the door, >let's dump the code and get on with the next project? If so, I'll wait until >it hits the $9.99 bargain bin, and then I'll shoplift it. >Neil >-- >Meek and obedient you follow the leader >down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. > Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

OK, folks. I give up. I'm done trying to help by giving out information about the patch because people are just going to pick apart words instead of listen to what is being said. This is my last posting on this subject. 1) The DOS patch will be out soon online. 2) Sierra is working out the details on how to get the new DOS/Win 95/Mac CD out to legitimate owners of the DOS-only ICR 2 that shipped in December. It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer questions. I'm wondering if it's worth it myself. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

writes: ......snip Ed: Please don't let some newfee give you a headache. Anyone who talks about shoplifting the software isn't worth the energy. We all appreciate more than you know the information you provide. We usually don't reply with a "Thank you for that valuable information I really appreciate it!" message. You would be bombarded. Many read but few write. Don't give up on us NASCAR freaks (forget the open wheel guys there a pain in the A**). We LOVE YOU MAN!! .. and the information you provide sets your company above the rest as far as customer service and accessibility. Tim Daley 59 Chevy Biscayne "The Best Things in life aren't THINGS!" J. Tuman

Daley) writes:

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>writes: >>OK, folks. I give up....Snip >>This is my last posting on this subject. >......snip >>It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer >>questions. I'm wondering if it's worth it myself. >>Ed Martin >>Producer, Series Director >>NASCAR Racing League >>Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. >Ed: >Please don't let some newfee give you a headache. Anyone who talks >about shoplifting the software isn't worth the energy. >We all appreciate more than you know the information you provide. We >usually don't reply with a "Thank you for that valuable information I >really appreciate it!" message. You would be bombarded. >Many read but few write. >Don't give up on us NASCAR freaks (forget the open wheel guys there a >pain in the A**). >We LOVE YOU MAN!! .. and the information you provide sets your company >above the rest as far as customer service and accessibility. >Tim Daley >59 Chevy Biscayne >"The Best Things in life aren't THINGS!" J. Tuman

Ed- I totaly agree with Tim. I am the Creative Labs rep for the soundcard newsgroup, and let me tell you, some people HATE me cause I work for them. People get pissed if I give them the correct answer, but not the one they want to hear (like you and this David Martin guy and assignable cars). What I do is this: Are you married? You know when your wife starts going on and on and on about something. You just smile and say "Yes dear"..... Stay with us Ed, your more of a asset than these punks who have nothing to do but ***. Mike

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> Mike, > I've posted info in other threads regarding this... here's the > latest... > The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update. > Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide > current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide > for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send > back your old CD & we'll send out a new one". > It's certainly not that we had no intention of following through on > what Rick said. Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said > because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to > make. > Regardless, I will let you know more as soon as I know more. Please > follow the other threads. > Ed Martin

Ed; I have been following the other threads. The error seems to be that the newsgroup is far from being a "linear" messaging system. Obviously, you received that message *after* you posted the information referenced above. I wrote it 2 days *before* seeing the information. It was in no way meant as a response to that info - nor am I intentionally skipping any thread in R.A.S. When I wrote it, there had been no response for close to a week. ** Many times, I get the response to a thread before seeing the original ** posting. So it looks like we all need to give the RAS a little more time ** to update and replicate on everyone's system. A day or two just isn't ** enough time. (talk about latency!!!! :-)) But speaking of time, if Rick did not have the authority to make that statement, it should have been cleared up at that time, not left out in the R.A.S. for months as though it were law. As you probably know if you deal in contract negotiations, if a representative of a company makes a statement or promise to the customer, it can become legally binding. (or at least a very sticky situation) Rick was the representative, we are the customer. I'm not trying to "shoot the messenger" (see? I DO read your threads!), nor am I flaming without reading your posts. It's all in the timing. Please pass on to the appropriate persons/groups where applicable. Finally, you've stated that it's too large to be downloadable. We who are regular R.A.S.'ers would like to help in that regards. Some of us have access to extensive computer systems, and may have other ways of handling this. [It's tough to be an *** and a game-loving child at the same time] It's nothing to see 10 - 30 MEG files being transferred across the internet on a daily (hourly) basis, so why should this be any different? If the update/patch is going to be created so that is disfunctional without the original program (which generally is the case), why not let US make it available to those with the bandwidth and take a load off of you? There are a lot of us with a keen interest in seeing this "sport" improve/ evolve/prosper/continue. I know without asking that many web sites would love to carry the update. That's a "given". There may even be large enough local "users groups" that only one download per "area" may be necessary. Kindest regards... No personal flame intended anywhere... Mike (Dr2) (too big for download is a relative term) :-)

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> OK, folks. I give up. I'm done trying to help by giving out > information about the patch because people are just going to pick > apart words instead of listen to what is being said. > This is my last posting on this subject. > 1) The DOS patch will be out soon online. > 2) Sierra is working out the details on how to get the new DOS/Win > 95/Mac CD out to legitimate owners of the DOS-only ICR 2 that shipped > in December. > It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer > questions. I'm wondering if it's worth it myself. > Ed Martin > Producer, Series Director > NASCAR Racing League > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Ed, I got a little bent out of shape, and I apologize to you. Unfortunately, your statement, "Frankly, Rick was in no position to say what he said because the official decision had not been made & it was not his to make", made me see red. This looked to me like a clear case of scapegoating. It's all too easy to do after he's gone. I am an ICR2 fan...I love the game, I've gotten more than my money's worth (especially compared to some other software I've bought). It's this hideously (and unfairly) long wait for "the patch" that is making me lose perspective. I realize that you are/weren't involved with ICR2, and there is no reason for me flaring at you. Keep up the good work on Hawaii, and give us open-wheelers a shot at it! Neil -- Meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

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> Daley) writes: > >writes: > >>OK, folks. I give up....Snip > >>This is my last posting on this subject. > >......snip > >>It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer > >>questions. I'm wondering if it's worth it myself. > >>Ed Martin > >>Producer, Series Director > >>NASCAR Racing League > >>Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. > >Ed: > >Please don't let some newfee give you a headache. Anyone who talks > >about shoplifting the software isn't worth the energy. > >We all appreciate more than you know the information you provide. We > >usually don't reply with a "Thank you for that valuable information I > >really appreciate it!" message. You would be bombarded. > >Many read but few write. > >Don't give up on us NASCAR freaks (forget the open wheel guys there a > >pain in the A**). > >We LOVE YOU MAN!! .. and the information you provide sets your company > >above the rest as far as customer service and accessibility. > >Tim Daley > >59 Chevy Biscayne > >"The Best Things in life aren't THINGS!" J. Tuman > Ed- > I totaly agree with Tim. I am the Creative Labs rep for the soundcard > newsgroup, and let me tell you, some people HATE me cause I work for > them. People get pissed if I give them the correct answer, but not the > one they want to hear (like you and this David Martin guy and > assignable cars). > What I do is this: Are you married? You know when your wife starts > going on and on and on about something. You just smile and say "Yes > dear"..... > Stay with us Ed, your more of a asset than these punks who have nothing > to do but ***. > Mike

OK, I heard my name. Listen, It may sound like I'm ***in' and maybe I am. I have been cooresponding with Ed for a couple of weeks because I'm concerned that Papyrus has, under the pressure of NASCAR and other $$$ driven sponsorships, forgotten a very important aspect of stock car racing. Their service provides us with a way to drive against a small set of drivers week in and week out. This is good. It is a step closer to reality from racing offline. But there is a small step that we want Papyrus to take further. Allow us to assign cars to drivers so that we not only drive against the same people but those people are now always in the same cars. Ed has called me relentless. Yes, I'm relentless. I'm relentless to the point of saying that the software company that provides a simulator service with this touch of personalism will get my business. I don't care if NASCAR is involved or not. NASCAR isn't the only stock car racing association. David Martin

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>writes: >>OK, folks. I give up....Snip >>This is my last posting on this subject. >......snip >>It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer >>questions. I'm wondering if it's worth it myself. >>Ed Martin >>Producer, Series Director >>NASCAR Racing League >>Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc. >Ed: >Please don't let some newfee give you a headache. Anyone who talks >about shoplifting the software isn't worth the energy. >We all appreciate more than you know the information you provide. We >usually don't reply with a "Thank you for that valuable information I >really appreciate it!" message. You would be bombarded. >Many read but few write. >Don't give up on us NASCAR freaks (forget the open wheel guys there a >pain in the A**). >We LOVE YOU MAN!! .. and the information you provide sets your company >above the rest as far as customer service and accessibility. >Tim Daley >59 Chevy Biscayne >"The Best Things in life aren't THINGS!" J. Tuman

Here Here. Mike

And who do you suppose will take the task of assigning cars? Papyrus? NASCAR? I wouldn't want the job. How many flaming emails do you think the person doing this will receive when Jonny doesn't get to drive the Goodwrench car? Or Bubba not being able to drive the Master Bait and Tackle car? My point, and I'm sure Papyrus' is, this would be a logistical nightmare to do. Mike

>It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer >questions. I'm wondering if it's worth it myself. That's totally unfair. I read this group avidly and have sat here through all this mess saying nothing and just patiently checking the web site for the patch. But any company that has such close contact with it's customers as Papyrus does through this n/g is setting itself up for this kind of hassle when it makes promises it can't honour. That's the only cause of all the messages directed your way. No-one to blame but yourselves. -- Derek James

I get your point Mike. But remember, a lot of us punks pay your salaries. The bottom line can be summed up with this smart ass remark," Are you here because of us, or are we here because of you?" ;-)

See ya... let us know what you find out there. P.S. the assignable car issue has only been brought up a MILLION times, and addressed over and over. What, you think they don't GET IT?

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>OK, folks. I give up. I'm done trying to help by giving out >information about the patch because people are just going to pick >apart words instead of listen to what is being said. >This is my last posting on this subject. >1) The DOS patch will be out soon online. >2) Sierra is working out the details on how to get the new DOS/Win >95/Mac CD out to legitimate owners of the DOS-only ICR 2 that shipped >in December. >It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer >questions. I'm wondering if it's worth it myself.

Ed, its worth it. Remember that for every loud and angry voice there are 10 others that may not reply that find your information useful and consider it a good thing that a company rep is taking the time to come online and deal with the flak that flies your way. No matter how much flak you take from some people, please remember that every post you write attempting to explain what's going on is a positive for your company and lets people know that the company they are dealing with is not just some nameless faceless entity that doesn't care about its customers. I understand the frustration of those who are impatiently waiting for the patch, but I also know you're in the unenviable position of taking all the flak for it. All I can tell you is, I (and many others) greatly appreciate your being here. Please hang in there for the silent majority of the people that read your posts and are grateful to you for taking the time to keep us up to date with what's going on. Cheers, Randy

>I totaly agree with Tim. I am the Creative Labs rep for the soundcard >newsgroup, and let me tell you, some people HATE me cause I work for >them. Hmm, well as long as you're here, Mike, can you tell me why it is that in my SB AWE 32 with Direct Sound and ICR2 for Win95 the revs 'notch' up through the digital sounds? How optimized are the directsound drivers for the SB AWE32? Thanks :) Randy

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>>I am really psyched to get a CD with the clean >>version on it!!!! >Only if it has the DOS version too on it too - I will not give up my >DOS version to get the Win95 version (which Papyrus repeatedly >promised for free on this newsgroup). On some computers/setups the >Win95 version sucks rocks. I want to try it (as I was promised), but I >don't want to give up my DOS-CD, since I am then screwed if I ever >need to re-install the DOS version.

Supposedly we're getting all three versions on the one CD. Makes me nervous sending my old CD- could get lost in the mail, could turn out the new DOS version is WORSE in some new way than the old... But I guess sending it is the only way they can be sure you bought it, and be sure you don't sell it.

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> OK, folks. I give up. I'm done trying to help by giving out > information about the patch because people are just going to pick > apart words instead of listen to what is being said. > This is my last posting on this subject. > 1) The DOS patch will be out soon online. > 2) Sierra is working out the details on how to get the new DOS/Win > 95/Mac CD out to legitimate owners of the DOS-only ICR 2 that shipped > in December. > It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer > questions. I'm wondering if it's worth it myself. > Ed Martin > Producer, Series Director > NASCAR Racing League > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

I hope you guys are all satisfied now. So here is one guy who cares about us and all you can do is make him leave it. It seems like all of you work for Papyrus knowing what is going on there. If I recall what was going on in this newsgroup (from Rick and so on): First there was supposed to be a coupon in the box for the Win95 version. So well it wasn't. But shortly after this, the question was answered here in the newsgroup that for a small fee, you could get the "upgrade". (Seems pretty much that what is going on now) So then Rick made the statement that it would be possible to download a patch that upgraded the DOS to the WIN version. I'm pretty sure that Rick fully stood behind this as it seems that he is responsible for the patch. I think he had all intention to make this upgrade happen. So now he left (I don't know why and it is none of my business) and it seems impossible to fullfil his accomplishment. To load everything on the back of Ed is a little unfair. OK the patch takes a long time. But then there is a patch. There are a lot of other companies, where there are no patches at all, or the patch costs you the full prize of a normal game every year. (I'm sure you know what I mean ;-) ) It seems that as Rick ( and others) so often told us, that there are some priorities to respect. So the patch wasn't one of the first. Period. I enjoyed the game trying to work myself around the bugs. So now there will be the DOS patch. OK my bugs are fixed. For all those who want the WIN95 version it seems that they can get it in a short period of time for an apple and an egg. This is just fine for me and I don't understand why some guys are just getting mad about it. I don't say you shouldn't complain about it but to get mad at someone who isn't responsible for it just doesn't make sense. My 0.02$ Happy Racing -- Kai Wesling Universitaet Bremen, Deutschland Ernzen, Luxemburg

[edited quotes out] Imagine what it is like running for president! Ya, things have gotten pretty damn ugly round here lately. But it is definitely worth it to be up here for a company like Papyrus- ALL the other companies worth their salt that I've been interested in have had people up in USENET, from Descent to Janes' Longbow Apache, and it has engaged at least this customer much more than I might have otherwise been in the software. It is a real sign that a company really cares about its product- it was cool hearing the Descent programmer brag about D2 the day before it hit the stores... And he caught a lot of heat, people pissed about having to use the CD, etc, but in the end, he helped the cause. It is, sadly, a very fine line one walks up here. The thing to remember is, MOST people aren't thinking like the flamers, and most people will have a lot of respect for a company that puts up with the crap. Fact is, I wouldn't be able to deal with all this ***people are throwing around- you'd have to hire somebody with a bit more leather for skin.

Ed Martin wrote

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> > OK, folks. I give up. I'm done trying to help by giving out > information about the patch because people are just going to pick > apart words instead of listen to what is being said. > > This is my last posting on this subject. > > 1) The DOS patch will be out soon online. > 2) Sierra is working out the details on how to get the new DOS/Win > 95/Mac CD out to legitimate owners of the DOS-only ICR 2 that shipped > in December. > > It's really no wonder that no other company sits up here to answer > questions. I'm wondering if it's worth it myself. > > Ed Martin > Producer, Series Director > NASCAR Racing League > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Frustrated, Ed? Not a good feeling, eh? You see they've all been waiting and waiting and waiting, one more false date, one more delay, more [I'm afraid this is how they see it, and why not?] bullshit. I'm talking about F1GP2, by the way. But I might as well be talking about the forthcoming ICR2 patch. Same thing, see? You can't release the patch last week for retail sales and say this week that the patch is being tested. That's bad maths. It doesn't add up. That's what's pissing this newsgroup off. It may not seem so important at the moment, but credibility is a good thing to hold onto. Personally, I like the way the ICR2 cars handle. I don't need the bug fix. As far as I'm concerned. this is the car, this is how it handles, go drive it. And I don't race with yellow flags, so the patch is no big deal to me. But the bullshit is. Man, I hate bullshit. Roy

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>>Stay with us Ed, your more of a asset than these punks who have nothing >>to do but ***. >>Mike >I get your point Mike. But remember, a lot of us punks pay your >salaries. The bottom line can be summed up with this smart ass >remark," Are you here because of us, or are we here because of you?" >;-)

Actually, if "here" means r.a.s., then for me, I am here because of Papyrus. :) Mike

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>>Stay with us Ed, your more of a asset than these punks who have nothing >>to do but ***. >>Mike >I get your point Mike. But remember, a lot of us punks pay your >salaries. The bottom line can be summed up with this smart ass >remark," Are you here because of us, or are we here because of you?" >;-)

If you were joking then no offense meant. If you were serious then, *** Off Winghead. Hang in there Mike & Ed, Those of us who drive real sim cars (Nascar) Do appreciate your time and effort and patience. Ron R II *********************************************** ** Keep the shiny side up & the hammer down ** *** Ron "Cougar" Riekens II *** **** Owner - Driver **** **** Medallion Motorsports/*** Photography **** *** NASS ARCA Series #96 Pontiac *** ***********************************************

Very much agreed! Please don't be scared off by the few that may tend to get out of line here. Everyone has their purpose and from what I can tell, the angry only are trying to reach you in the best way they know. The support and information you and other Papyrus/Sierra people give us in this newsgroup is priceless. Since this is an open forum to discussion, there will always be those who tend not to be so understanding and appreciative in their posts. Please keep up the support for the grateful majority! Thanks, Ron

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> I personally feel that Sierra should do the "right" thing and follow > Intel's lead on this issue. Intel sent me a free p5-90 in replacement > for the "buggy" one I owned. They also included return Fed-Ex postage > for me to send them my "buggy" chip. Sierra knows who the registered > owners of ICR2 are, they should send us the upgraded version and include > a pre-postage paid envelope. I will gladly send them back my "buggy" > copy of ICR2. > Sierra should just bite the bullet on this one. They should be reminded > of how they got to be so big. One of the reasons they stayed in > business in their early days was due to their wonderful and excellent > customer support. Now that they have grown so large, all I can think of > is what Lilly Tomlin used to say, "We don't have to care, we're the > phone company!"

Agreed , Intel replacement policy on the Pentiums was great - no cost to me. However, given the cost of me mailing anything to the States for a replacement will be quite expensive, I feel Papyrus/Sierra should offer replacement through retail outlets. As the cost of Fed Ex or Airbourne to the States is around US$45 from New Zealand one way (NZ$68). Now if I have to pay for shipping (both ways) that is NZ$136 plus the US$15 replacement fee that brings me to NZ$158. The games only NZ$120 (US$80) It will be cheaper to buy it again! Does this seem fair? Presumably this situation will affect all international customers. How do people in the UK get on with replacements? What is the replacement policy for international customers? A decidedly unhappy Geoff in New Zealand :-(

>Supposedly we're getting all three versions on the one CD. Makes me >nervous sending my old CD- could get lost in the mail, could turn out >the new DOS version is WORSE in some new way than the old... But I >guess sending it is the only way they can be sure you bought it, and >be sure you don't sell it. I have the CD. I am not sure what I did to set this up, but I am playing directly off my HD. The directory tree is about 60Mbs. That should minimize your risk somewhat (if you have backups). Directory PATH listing for Volume STACVOL_DSK F:. +---CARS | \---CARS95 +---EFFECTS +---OBJS +---PAINTKIT +---ROL +---SOUND +---TRACKS

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| +---AUSTRAL | +---CLEVLAND | +---DETROIT | +---ELKHART | +---LAGUNA | +---LONGBCH | +---MICHIGAN | +---MIDOHIO | +---MLWAUKEE | +---NAZARETH | +---NWENGLND | +---PHOENIX | +---PORTLAND | +---TORONTO | \---VANCOUVR

+---EDITRPY \---TRCKTIME

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>Very much agreed! Please don't be scared off by the few that may tend >to get out of line here. Everyone has their purpose and from what I >can tell, the angry only are trying to reach you in the best way they >know. The support and information you and other Papyrus/Sierra people >give us in this newsgroup is priceless. Since this is an open forum to >discussion, there will always be those who tend not to be so >understanding and appreciative in their posts.

I think almost no one has been "out of line", except maybe for one or two flamers. The vast majority of those critcizing Papyrus have been calm, reasonable, and have presented valid complaints. In fact, I would go so far as to say that people who are always "positive", and never, never complain for fear of ruffling feathers, are those who are truly not understanding nor appreciative. They are a pure waste of bandwidth that has no content or benefit. Joe

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>Frustrated, Ed? Not a good feeling, eh? You see they've all been waiting >and waiting and waiting, one more false date, one more delay, more [I'm >afraid this is how they see it, and why not?] bullshit. I'm talking about >F1GP2, by the way. But I might as well be talking about the forthcoming >ICR2 patch. Same thing, see? You can't release the patch last week for >retail sales and say this week that the patch is being tested. That's bad >maths. It doesn't add up. That's what's pissing this newsgroup off. >It may not seem so important at the moment, but credibility is a good >thing to hold onto. >Personally, I like the way the ICR2 cars handle. I don't need the bug >fix. As far as I'm concerned. this is the car, this is how it handles, go >drive it. And I don't race with yellow flags, so the patch is no big deal >to me. But the bullshit is. Man, I hate bullshit. >Roy

You, my friend, are truely an ***! What a cheap shot. I guess Ed is frustrated, he should be. He has a made a good faith effort to keep people informed of whats going on with a product that he has no direct involvement in. Yes, Ed does represent Sierra/Papyrus. But the last time I looked at his signature block it didn't say a damn thing about Indy Car. Yeah, I hate bullshit too. Thats why it almost made me sick to read that bullshit you wrote. -------------- Michael Kirton

>I think almost no one has been "out of line", except maybe for one or >two flamers. The vast majority of those critcizing Papyrus have been >calm, reasonable, and have presented valid complaints. Thanks Joe, Time to waste more bandwidth. You are obviously refering to my post(s) as you seem to have included in your previous response. I would like to take this moment to define my "out of line" phrase which I used. I have followed these threads as most have. It is my choice to retreive and read them as with everyone. I have seen some valid, honest, and constructive critizism brought out. Some have chosen to personally provoke and call Papyrus/Sierra people liars in their posts. Along with the cussing and whining being spewed recklessly with no apparent reason. I have also seen Ed get to a point of being fed up with it, (note: this was after my post) which seems to prove my point. It is one thing to ask, discuss, and appreciate the information that the Papyrus/Sierra tech provide here but when it resorts to name-calling, bashing, flaming, cussing, telling them their liars, well I feel that is "out of line". No, this won't stop it nor will it make me any more popular in this newsgroup. I am sure I will receive a fair amount of flaming my way for stating my opinion here. ? True, We are all a waste of BW lately. Have fun adding to this thread.... I'm done. Ron