Forza Motorsport: 20 FPS shame shocker

http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=7608 It has come to light in a recent interview that Forza Motorsport, Microsoft�s direct assault on Sony�s Gran Turismo castle of amazement, runs at a measly 20 frames per second: an unthinkably slow refresh rate. Indeed, according to Michael Johnson, product manager at Microsoft, although only 20 frames will be achieved, ��because of the anti-aliasing and other advances, controlling the car recreates the experience as if it were 180 frames per second,� so the scribes at Gamerfeed report. Quite. Johnson, who (did we mention this already?) is the product manager for Forza at Microsoft, claims that �� the game offers much more detailed control than anything that has been seen before.� As do you, we look forward to seeing the �the anti-aliasing and other advances� that makes 180 frames out of 20. Really, we do. ---- Look's like they've gone overboard with the eye-candy.

Only if they were using techniques like motion blur for example, but is not mentioned. "MG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=7608 > It has come to light in a recent interview that Forza Motorsport, > Microsoft's direct assault on Sony's Gran Turismo castle of amazement, > runs at a measly 20 frames per second: an unthinkably slow refresh > rate. > > Indeed, according to Michael Johnson, product manager at Microsoft, > although only 20 frames will be achieved, ".because of the > anti-aliasing and other advances, controlling the car recreates the > experience as if it were 180 frames per second," so the scribes at > Gamerfeed report. Quite. > > Johnson, who (did we mention this already?) is the product manager for > Forza at Microsoft, claims that ". the game offers much more detailed > control than anything that has been seen before." > > As do you, we look forward to seeing the "the anti-aliasing and other > advances" that makes 180 frames out of 20. Really, we do. > ---- > > Look's like they've gone overboard with the eye-candy.

Project Gotham ran at 60fps and it was far easier to see oncoming corners obstacles etc and control the car than it was in Project Gotham 2 which ran at 30fps. A lot of racing games are being made for people who like looking at nice screenshots these days. I think some of these game developers brains must only update 20 times per second.

"MG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=7608 > It has come to light in a recent interview that Forza Motorsport, > Microsoft's direct assault on Sony's Gran Turismo castle of amazement, > runs at a measly 20 frames per second: an unthinkably slow refresh > rate. > > Indeed, according to Michael Johnson, product manager at Microsoft, > although only 20 frames will be achieved, ".because of the > anti-aliasing and other advances, controlling the car recreates the > experience as if it were 180 frames per second," so the scribes at > Gamerfeed report. Quite. > > Johnson, who (did we mention this already?) is the product manager for > Forza at Microsoft, claims that ". the game offers much more detailed > control than anything that has been seen before." > > As do you, we look forward to seeing the "the anti-aliasing and other > advances" that makes 180 frames out of 20. Really, we do. > ---- > > Look's like they've gone overboard with the eye-candy.

I'm not worried in the least. You sure you aren't just looking for a response on this, acting like a kind of newbie-troll? Your message sounds suspiciously trollish. I'm just curious about this, since I run a class on how to be a troll. If you need some pointers, go to www.beatrolltoday.com :) Alanb

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 23:42:07 GMT, "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> >"MG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >news:[email hidden]... >> http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=7608 >> It has come to light in a recent interview that Forza Motorsport, >> Microsoft's direct assault on Sony's Gran Turismo castle of amazement, >> runs at a measly 20 frames per second: an unthinkably slow refresh >> rate. >> >> Indeed, according to Michael Johnson, product manager at Microsoft, >> although only 20 frames will be achieved, ".because of the >> anti-aliasing and other advances, controlling the car recreates the >> experience as if it were 180 frames per second," so the scribes at >> Gamerfeed report. Quite. >> >> Johnson, who (did we mention this already?) is the product manager for >> Forza at Microsoft, claims that ". the game offers much more detailed >> control than anything that has been seen before." >> >> As do you, we look forward to seeing the "the anti-aliasing and other >> advances" that makes 180 frames out of 20. Really, we do. >> ---- >> >> Look's like they've gone overboard with the eye-candy. > >I'm not worried in the least. You sure you aren't just looking for a >response on this, acting like a kind of newbie-troll? Your message sounds >suspiciously trollish. > >I'm just curious about this, since I run a class on how to be a troll. If >you need some pointers, go to > >www.beatrolltoday.com :) > >Alanb >

Well, shoot the messenger if you like, but if Forza is sacrificing framerate at the expense of graphics it ain't good news. 20 FPS is pathetic and their commitment to eye-candy makes me wonder what their commitment to underlying car-physics is. I'm hoping for a Gran Turismo killer as much as anyone, but the framerate compromise doesn't give me hope.

"MG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 23:42:07 GMT, "Alan Bernardo" <[email hidden]> > wrote: > >> >>"MG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >>news:[email hidden]... >>> http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=7608 >>> It has come to light in a recent interview that Forza Motorsport, >>> Microsoft's direct assault on Sony's Gran Turismo castle of amazement, >>> runs at a measly 20 frames per second: an unthinkably slow refresh >>> rate. >>> >>> Indeed, according to Michael Johnson, product manager at Microsoft, >>> although only 20 frames will be achieved, ".because of the >>> anti-aliasing and other advances, controlling the car recreates the >>> experience as if it were 180 frames per second," so the scribes at >>> Gamerfeed report. Quite. >>> >>> Johnson, who (did we mention this already?) is the product manager for >>> Forza at Microsoft, claims that ". the game offers much more detailed >>> control than anything that has been seen before." >>> >>> As do you, we look forward to seeing the "the anti-aliasing and other >>> advances" that makes 180 frames out of 20. Really, we do. >>> ---- >>> >>> Look's like they've gone overboard with the eye-candy. >> >>I'm not worried in the least. You sure you aren't just looking for a >>response on this, acting like a kind of newbie-troll? Your message sounds >>suspiciously trollish. >> >>I'm just curious about this, since I run a class on how to be a troll. If >>you need some pointers, go to >> >>www.beatrolltoday.com :) >> >>Alanb >> > Well, shoot the messenger if you like, but if Forza is sacrificing > framerate at the expense of graphics it ain't good news. 20 FPS is > pathetic and their commitment to eye-candy makes me wonder what their > commitment to underlying car-physics is. > > I'm hoping for a Gran Turismo killer as much as anyone, but the > framerate compromise doesn't give me hope.

It's a good thing to never get your hopes up too high. Still, the game is a few months from release so anything can happen. Having a game run at 20fps may mean nothing. MS is not going to release a game, a greatly anticipated game, in which the frames make the game unplayable or not as good as it could be. There's got to be a reason. And while there are reasons, there will always be those who aren't happy unless they are complaining about things, whether they know squat about the issue or not. Alanb

Apparently the 20 FPS was a typo, it is actually 30 FPS: http://microsoft.gamerfeed.com/gf/news/7546/ Also, check out the physics demonstration (and the movie) on this puppy, "Enthusia". Very impressive! http://www.enthusia-racing.com/eng/movie.html

> There's got to be a reason. And while there are reasons, there will > always be those who aren't happy unless they are complaining about things, > whether they know squat about the issue or not. Well I know pretty much everything there is to know about framerates (I'm a video professional by trade) I believe that sacrificing the 60fps frame rate is one of the worst mistakes a producer of a racing game can make. It's been shown time and again in the past that 30fps racers never go on to be classics on consoles no matter how good they are in other departments. Say what you want about the Gran Turismo series - at least Polyphony are smart enough to realise how important frame rate is to the overall experience. Microsoft's market research says people don't notice the difference - a classic example of how market research on the ignorant masses gets it wrong. Thank god we don't ask joe average his opinion when we develop video and TV standards.

I also read 30fps recently. The enthusia video is really amazing. -- David G Fisher "Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Ra70d.19893$[email hidden]... > > Apparently the 20 FPS was a typo, it is actually 30 FPS: > http://microsoft.gamerfeed.com/gf/news/7546/ > > Also, check out the physics demonstration (and the movie) on this > puppy, "Enthusia". Very impressive! > > http://www.enthusia-racing.com/eng/movie.html

NTSC to PC gaming isnt comparable. When PC gaming gets things like motion blur then the comparison can possibly be made. Not now. I would agree 30fps is somewhat low but the key is consistency. If you can get 30fps at a consistently level of detail without slowdowns it will work fine and should make a racing game more fair for everyone. Ive always thought thats what Eldred's problem is. I get over 100FPS in NR2003 but that doesnt do me much good at a track like Sears where the slowdown going into T1-2 drops me into the 30's. Id much prefer a consistent 30 everywhere. Mitch "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>> There's got to be a reason. And while there are reasons, there will >> always be those who aren't happy unless they are complaining about >> things, whether they know squat about the issue or not. > > Well I know pretty much everything there is to know about framerates (I'm > a video professional by trade) > > I believe that sacrificing the 60fps frame rate is one of the worst > mistakes a producer of a racing game can make. It's been shown time and > again in the past that 30fps racers never go on to be classics on consoles > no matter how good they are in other departments. Say what you want about > the Gran Turismo series - at least Polyphony are smart enough to realise > how important frame rate is to the overall experience. > > Microsoft's market research says people don't notice the difference - a > classic example of how market research on the ignorant masses gets it > wrong. Thank god we don't ask joe average his opinion when we develop > video and TV standards. > >

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> NTSC to PC gaming isnt comparable. When PC gaming gets things like motion > blur then the comparison can possibly be made. Not now. I would agree > 30fps is somewhat low but the key is consistency. If you can get 30fps at > a consistently level of detail without slowdowns it will work fine and > should make a racing game more fair for everyone. Ive always thought > thats what Eldred's problem is. I get over 100FPS in NR2003 but that > doesnt do me much good at a track like Sears where the slowdown going into > T1-2 drops me into the 30's. Id much prefer a consistent 30 everywhere.

I'm not a fan of silly tricks like motion blur (nothing but a band-aid cover up) or for that matter AA - I'd rather play in 1600x1200 than 1280x960 with AA any day.

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:39:58 +0100, MG wrote: > Indeed, according to Michael Johnson, product manager at Microsoft, > although only 20 frames will be achieved, ￜￜbecause of the > anti-aliasing and other advances, controlling the car recreates the > experience as if it were 180 frames per second,ￜ so the scribes at > Gamerfeed report. Quite. > Just spin typical of MS: praising their bugs as "features" ;-) Cheers, Uwe -- mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox) Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/ Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E) GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61