ICR2-Win95 Patch - I give up!

Ok. I've tried papy's web page. I've followed this group. I've found Sierra's page. I gave personal information and joined. I searched their Sim/patches page. I _still_ can't find where the patch is :-( Can anyone help? Thanks in anticipation. ------------------------------------------------- Neil Charlton -------------------------------------------------

I don't know about you guys but I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HEARING THE SOFTWARE COMPANIES PROMISE ONE THING AND FAIL TO DELIVER. We are the paying customers that keep these friggin companies in business. They basically work for us so when they say a patch will be released at the end of the week they better damn well promise. Here's an example - if you are a company and you tell your customer that a product will be ready and delivered on a certain day - if you don't deliver most likely you will be taken to court. These software companies keep promising us stuff and keep delivering us SHIT. I hope they realize that if we decide to stop buying on Microprose and Papyrus - get your damn act together and make us think that we actually should go out and spend money on your products.

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> Ok. I've tried papy's web page. I've followed this group. I've found > Sierra's page. I gave personal information and joined. I searched > their Sim/patches page. I _still_ can't find where the patch is :-( > Can anyone help? > Thanks in anticipation. > ------------------------------------------------- > Neil Charlton > -------------------------------------------------

> I don't know about you guys but I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HEARING THE > SOFTWARE COMPANIES PROMISE ONE THING AND FAIL TO DELIVER. We are the > paying customers that keep these friggin companies in business. They > basically work for us so when they say a patch will be released at the end [ ... yah-dah, yah-dah, yah-dah ... ] You forgot to say "Pretty please."

[snip] Will you relax? If the patch isn't out yet it isn't out yet. If you've waited this long you can wait another day or two for it to be out, and done RIGHT. Jeezus you act like you have to pay for it! It's a FREE upgrade, you should be thanking Papyrus for that instead of ***ing them out. Now go do a few laps at Elkhart Lake or work on your setup or something else constructive and fun.

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> >I don't know about you guys but I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HEARING THE > >SOFTWARE COMPANIES PROMISE ONE THING AND FAIL TO DELIVER. We are the > [snip] > Will you relax? If the patch isn't out yet it isn't out yet. If you've waited > this long you can wait another day or two for it to be out, and done RIGHT. > Jeezus you act like you have to pay for it! It's a FREE upgrade, you

should be > thanking Papyrus for that instead of ***ing them out. I believe Rick Genter, it is coming very soon- I am sure he's done his part. But it might be a good idea to email Sierra and try to wake up their tech department. I emailed them about the patch 2 days ago, and they appeared to know nothing about it, didn't tell me where such a thing would be posted (figured it out on my own anyway). else >constructive and fun. How about Portland! eveyone might want to check out Racing Sim News on the net- it's an excellent publication.

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>>I don't know about you guys but I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HEARING THE >>SOFTWARE COMPANIES PROMISE ONE THING AND FAIL TO DELIVER. We are the >[snip] >Will you relax? If the patch isn't out yet it isn't out yet. If you've waited >this long you can wait another day or two for it to be out, and done RIGHT. >Jeezus you act like you have to pay for it! It's a FREE upgrade, you should be >thanking Papyrus for that instead of ***ing them out. Now go do a few laps at >Elkhart Lake or work on your setup or something else constructive and fun.

Way to go...I don't remember a specific release date at all, just the fact that it was nearing the end of this week or next. Sometimes the buttheads in this newsgroup are just too immature and disrespectful for me to handle day in and day out. The nice thing is with their attitude, you can imagine them still wetting their diapers and crying while you're passing them on Hawaii or beating their lap times in ICR2! :) What a picture... KS

I sick of talk like this....We did pay for it 7 months ago! I'll thank them when they finally learn how to release a game with only minor bugs. This is absurd!

>>Will you relax? If the patch isn't out yet it isn't out yet. If you've waited >>this long you can wait another day or two for it to be out, and done RIGHT. >>Jeezus you act like you have to pay for it! It's a FREE upgrade, you should be >>thanking Papyrus for that instead of ***ing them out. Now go do a few laps at

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>>Elkhart Lake or work on your setup or something else constructive and fun. >I sick of talk like this....We did pay for it 7 months ago! I'll >thank them when they finally learn how to release a game with only >minor bugs. >This is absurd!

What you paid for seven months ago was what you GOT seven months ago, unless there was an agreement somewhere in the box that you'd get a free upgrade. If you didn't like the game then, you shouldn't have bought it. Do you show up at your local car dealer every year demanding a new model for free because there were 'bugs' in the old one? Do you think Microsoft is going to send you the next version of Win95 for free, because you already bought the last one? Software companies come and go like the wind, if you're of the mindset that you deserve and will get free upgrades and support for the rest of your life you are in for major disappointment.

But we're not talking about an "upgrade", it's a "bug fix" (I'm talking about the DOS version here, I'm not much interested in the Win 95 version). We *are* entitled to bug fixes. Microsoft have released several for Win 95 and most software developers release patches within a few days / weeks of the bugs being discovered by the public. For what it's worth, I reckon that ICR2 is a pretty good product and, whilst there are a number of obvious bugs, they are more of the slightly annoying variety than of the "makes the game unplayable" sort that some have made them out to be. Still, *7* months for a "1.0.1" bug fix release is a little disappointing..... :(. Compare this to Civilisation which has had 11 (count them) patches since it was released 3 months or so ago - and these have been as much "upgrades" as "bug fixes"! Richard

Are you really this stupid? I never mentioned and upgrade. I'm talking about the patch to fix the major bugs (yellow flags and computer AI at certain tracks). I guess you wouldn't know what I was talking about because your copy of ICR2 works flawlessly. The biggest question here is: Is my ***ing about papyrus's support of ICR2 more productive than your ass kissing? :-)

On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:11:13 GMT, Big Dog said something kinda like: Just be grateful that Papyrus is one of the VERY FEW companies that has someone online listening and responding, and actually releasing patches. All of us have programs that have significant bugs, whose companies have decided to leave as is (since you make all of your money with the initial sells, and patches cost resources but do not generate any significant new cash.) jeff

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> >I sick of talk like this....We did pay for it 7 months ago! I'll > >thank them when they finally learn how to release a game with only > >minor bugs. > >This is absurd! > What you paid for seven months ago was what you GOT seven months > ago, unless there was an agreement somewhere in the box that you'd > get a free upgrade. If you didn't like the game then, you shouldn't > have bought it. Do you show up at

I have bought something that doesn't work according to what I was promised. Papyrus has spent almost eight - 8 - months trying to fix it(I'll bet the patch has been ready for a long time). That's way too long. I don't give a ***y *** about the release of the W'95 version. I want my DOS copy fixed! It's really that simple. The people defending Papyrus' reluctance to release the patch must be loved by every hippocratic business in the world. ***y naive loosers that take a load of ***and smile about it, even defend it. Although if they had to wait seven months to have their partly malfunctioning TV fixed I'll bet they would have gone nuts. -- --- Terje Wold Johansen --- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ --- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

writes No. I paid for a game _WITHOUT_ bugs. If the box advertised "yellow flag bug which means you can never finish a race" then I wouldn't have bought (or not without knowing it was going to be fixed free of charge). To use your analogy, if you bought a new car and the air-con and sunroof were broken, you WOULDN'T take it back? I think perhaps you would... Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm\::/ \._______\

> The people defending Papyrus' reluctance to release the > patch must be loved by every hippocratic business in the > world. ***y naive loosers that take a load of ***and > smile about it, even defend it. ======= Wiser, perhaps, but certainly not necessarily naive. Some might say perhaps better educated than some other hippocratic [sic] loosers [sic]. You might also make note that exaggerations and unfounded accusations detract from your argument rather than strengthen it. You force the reader to agree that not only is Papyrus *reluctant* to release an update, but that they are obligated to do so. (Talk about a "load of crap.") As for defending them, nothing cogent was said that can be considered an attack worthy of defense. ======== Anecdotally, I wasn't overjoyed when Ford recalled my two year old car to replace a faulty, non-safety related device. I felt inconvenienced, and the incident detracts from my overall impression of the company. Were they obligated to do this? I haven't had a problem with ICR2 that I think worthy of discussion. Let me make this a stronger statement: I haven't had a single problem with ICR2. I wish the old rain option was available, but that doesn't detract much from my enjoyment of the game. Also, I realize that I was careless in not looking for this feature on the box art. In actuality, I would have bought the game, even if it were explicitly clear that the rain feature was removed. In a different vein, I can afford to suffer the loss of the price of the game if it didn't meet my expectations. As, for example, I did with (such junk as) Virtual Karts and Need For Speed. I gambled by buying at a retail store that has a strict no-return policy for software. As consumers eventually vote with their money on store policies, capital ventures, such as software companies, live and die by our purchase decisions. Where I'm concerned, ICR2 continues to define the leading edge of this genre of PC sims, and I am not at all disappointed in what I bought. (BTW, is anyone else out there disappointed that they wasted bandwidth and their time downloading Quake? I am... ) With that said, a Win95 compatible version would be very nice indeed. I'm as anxious as the next person to get my mitts on this. And yes, I would be disappointed (but not pissed) if they expected money for it. Mike.

The problem with this is that Papyrus did promise a patch. And to make it worse, posted a message stating that the patch would be posted by "late this week". I think that at this point, the least they could do is post a message somewhere in this newsgroup saying exactly what the new delay is and when we can expect it. ICR2 doesn't have any major bugs, but once Papyrus said that the patch was ready to be posted, it should have been top priority. I just hope this isn't a sign of things to come for Papyrus.

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>writes >>What you paid for seven months ago was what you GOT seven months ago, unless >>there was an agreement somewhere in the box that you'd get a free upgrade. >No. >I paid for a game _WITHOUT_ bugs. If the box advertised "yellow flag bug >which means you can never finish a race" then I wouldn't have bought (or >not without knowing it was going to be fixed free of charge).

The box also did not say "this game is bug free." Most software you buy, especially games, will have bugs somewhere. Unfortunately most stores don't take returns on software, so we have no direct recourse. I would have checked those things out before I bought the car, just like trying out the ICR 2 demo before buying the game.

I have the same game everyone else does. Patch, upgrade, whatever you want to call it. Once you apply the patch you'll probably have a new version number. Ass Kissing? I didn't call Papy the best computer game company in the world or anything like that. All i'm doing is giving them a chance to defend themselves when the work week starts. Now, if we were talking about Microprose and WC 2, it would be a different story. They deserve all the rumor mongering and flaming they get in this group, Papyrus doesn't. Give them a day or so to explain why the patch didn't appear last week like Ed said it would. Give them the chance to explain before you pass judgement.

Have you ever stopped to think, that mabye the more we ***, whine, and moan about "[insert Game Title] being late", or "Where the hell is that [insert game title] patch???" That the companies decide to delay the release of the product???? Hey, they have a perfect excuse which I would wholeheartedly belive listening to you babies whine...... "The customers don't appreciate what we're doing for them, so***them, we'll get the patch out some other time, let them whine...." In 3 words... GET OVER IT!!!!

Anyone who defends Papyrus for pulling our chains is a dip-shit. That just encourages them, and other software companies, to keep on promising release dates they know they can't keep. And those worried about offfnding one of their on-line personalities, think again !! They arn't going to withhold any software patch or release of a new sim on our behalf. Believe me, it will be released as soon as its done so we might as well keep ***in at em so maybe, just maybe, sometime in the future when they PROMISE us a release date for a product, they'll think about the consiquences before they give us some far fetched release date they know they can't keep!! This is getting as bad as the F1GP2 PROMISE !! So come on Papyprose where the hell is it ?????? It went gold on friday..well it'll have gone rust before we get to see it... What ever that means, Mick

"What you paid for seven months ago was what you GOT seven months ago, unless there was an agreement somewhere in the box that you'd get a free upgrade." Papyrus made no bones about their intention to upgrade registered DOS owners of IndyCar II to Win95 at minimal cost (shipping & Handling). It was a vehicle they used to sell as many copies of DOS ICR2 as they could. What you Do NOT want when you come out with a product like ICR2/DOS is for your sales to freeze up while everyone sits around waiting for ICR2/Win95. So they offered that as an incentive. As such, there *IS* an agreement which they made in order to sell copies of ICR2/DOS. Randy

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 15:44:28 +0100, John Wallace

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>I paid for a game _WITHOUT_ bugs. If the box advertised "yellow flag bug >which means you can never finish a race" then I wouldn't have bought (or >not without knowing it was going to be fixed free of charge). >To use your analogy, if you bought a new car and the air-con and sunroof >were broken, you WOULDN'T take it back? I think perhaps you would... >Cheers! >John

Hi, John. Not to debunk you're analogy, but I never would have bought it. But I did. And I have been able to get much enjoyment out if it without returning it (although now it would be too late). :) With a car with a damaged air-con or sunroof, I know not to count on an auto dealership to quote me the right date when it will be fixed. That is one of life's certainties. I do expect a package to be playable, and I don't believe that the people waiting for the patch aren't even playing ICR2. If they aren't, we could all learn patience from them! :) By the way, thanks for keeping the griping that goes on here out of SRN. You have remained politically neutral.

>The biggest question here is: >Is my ***ing about papyrus's support of ICR2 more productive than >your ass kissing? :-) Neither will get you anywhere. I've learned that much the past couple of days. By the way, the support from Papyrus is fine on the product as is, and if you're not racing ICR2, how can you stand it? Is it undriveable in your opinion? I ask this because I must be missing something even with the "bugs" that exist, and I'm still enjoying it in the time that I've been playing it since it was released.

Judgment has been passed and the sentence delivered by some, but don't let that stop you from an appeal. I don't feel the need to defend Papyrus/Sierra as the best, either, but they do deserve their day in this newsgroup. We just expect too much too frequently and make up our minds without ever knowing what is going on at the source. That is what really makes me sad.

So I assume you're not even playing it? Never have because the "bugs" were just too much for you to bear? You are the model of patience. It's not hipocracy, just the real world. And if your sources can ascertain the reason for the delay, then your statements are justified. As for naive, there are better things to spend my time and energy on, and not let my life revolve around ICR2's patch release date. Therefore, the whining just got too much to bear and I lowered myself to that level and complained about the whining. I'm not speaking about you, since I don't know you, but I'm curious to see what becomes of all this with Sierra/Papyrus...probably not much, but that is another thread. But hey, you're not racing ICR2, right? So what does it matter? That is the real world (again). TV repairs take forever. >-- >--- Terje Wold Johansen >--- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ >--- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

>Come on Ed we know your out there. Where is the Patch? Ed is NRL Director, not ICR2 Technical Lead, as was Rick Genter. Find Rick's replacement, and take your question up with that individual. Don't get people involved un-necessarily or use their name in the wrong context. Ed was speaking on Rick's behalf last week, but I don't think that makes him the scapegoat for all of the "patch date release" woes everyone's griping about.

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>I haven't had a problem with ICR2 that I think worthy of discussion. Let >me make this a stronger statement: I haven't had a single problem with >ICR2. I wish the old rain option was available, but that doesn't detract >much from my enjoyment of the game. Also, I realize that I was careless >in not looking for this feature on the box art. In actuality, I would >have bought the game, even if it were explicitly clear that the rain >feature was removed.

Good. Some clear thoughts on the subject. If 50% of the sim was undriveable or something of that nature, I could see considering the possibility of returning it or complaining. Oh, man, I thought I was the only one who bought those and was disappointed. Those are the first games I bought where I considered returning them, especially VK. Win95...I'd like it for the interface, say with the setup screens, etc., but not for the frame rate, although I don't know how people can postulate on such a thing, including DirectX, etc., without even seeing it, but the fear seems to generate some interesting debates. I will get it regardless.

>> >Will you relax? If the patch isn't out yet it isn't out yet. If you've waited >> >this long you can wait another day or two for it to be out, and done RIGHT. >> >Jeezus you act like you have to pay for it! It's a FREE upgrade, you should be >> >thanking Papyrus for that instead of ***ing them out. Now go do a few laps at >> >Elkhart Lake or work on your setup or something else constructive and fun. I wrote the following paragraph, Ray, not the one above... Ray, check your sources, my accusatory foe. I am the author of the last paragraph in the post above, and will stand behind it, but don't go off half-cocked (your size I suppose) and assume I speak for everyone else with a complaint. I didn't spell Jesus "Jeezus", nor did I even write the post, you fool. Do you know how to read replies or what? alternative than having to spend my time reading your worthless post. Your response has justified my belief in my original paragraph about the type of people who whine in this newsgroup. You have just fulfilled and substantiated everyone's opinion about you. I consider that a service to the rest of us. Now we know what kind of mature and level-headed appreciative individual you are. *** THE END ***

From another one of my posts in this newsgroup, I submit the following: To all of you out there, I apologize. Not to the whiners. Not to the impatiently abusive. Just to those of you who don't need to see this kind of reaction but know better than to react to all of the complainers in here. I just got tired of reading adolescent whining and crying and let my emotions get the better of me. I've said my piece, will take my "pipe and smoke it" (Jennifer) as is, and patiently wait for Sierra/Papyrus to get their patch released. My life does not revolve around it, and I am grateful for any release that can further my enjoyment of ICR2. That, IMHO, is the key. I enjoy playing it now, and have learned to live with the inconsistencies, because I realize trying to program things like AI and the laws of physics to run on my PC is a feat in itself. Thank you, and again, apologies to those with a conscience. KS

Ray, reply lesson #101... My name? Yes. My words? Not until my reply to the following... >> >>I don't know about you guys but I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HEARING THE >> >>SOFTWARE COMPANIES PROMISE ONE THING AND FAIL TO DELIVER. We are the >> >[snip] The reply to the statement above is as follows (not by me, though)... And now, my response that entire debate siding with the reply as it relates to the patience needed for the patch release... Ray, hope this helps you come to grips with your inability to read and reply to the right posts or make sense of them. You need the help. Then you won't get flamed for accusing someone falsely, despite the fact you don't even need to reply if you're going to be so nice and speak those kind words to someone (even if it's me). I really don't care what you think unless you can actually put a thought together. As for*** head comments, SHOULDN'T BE HERE = Ray

<<I would have checked those things out before I bought the car, just like trying out the ICR 2 demo before buying the game.>> Let's not forget that most problems don't manifest themselves until well after you get the car home. That's why manufacturers have warrantees. Nick ______________________________________________________________________ #6 (will he be #28 in '97) & #94 in the *real* quest for the Cup My home away from home... http://www.mindspring.com/~ntotoro/ ______________________________________________________________________

>Just be grateful that Papyrus is one of the VERY FEW companies that >has someone online listening and responding, and actually releasing >patches. Yes they do listen, but where are these patches that you mention? It has taken Papy 8 months to release 1.0.1 for ICR2 and it still isn't here :( As I said previously, the bugs don't ruin the game, but they do exist and 8 months for the first patch is poor by any standards. Richard

How about a little perspective here, folks. I enjoy virtual racing as much as the next person, but it's still a game. Nobody's lives or livelihood is at stake here (except possibly the Papyrus employees). Software is still an inexact science, and last minute snags are always a possibility, not to mention the logistics problems created by having Sierra in the release loop. I think Papyrus would like to have an end to all the griping about ICR2 as much as you would like to have the patch. So, take a deep breath <inhale, exhale>, and give them a little time to sort things out. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

writes Oh please. If software is bugged then the authors have are responsible to fix it, if not legally then morally. If they don't fix it, and in a timely fashion, I won't by any more of their products which is death for any company. Papyrus do excellent work, and if it wasn't for that then I wouldn't buy any more of their products - I think their action over this ICR2 patch has been very sloppy, and insulting to the people that bought the game originally. To delay the patch and divert that work toward NASCAR2 and all the other projects is dismissive to the point of contempt. Congrats - that's probably the worst analogy I've ever heard. So you can find every single flaw with a car BEFORE you buy it? Or when you drive the car away and the gearbox falls out you just shrug and say "well, I should have spotted that - it's not the garage's fault". Sure..... Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm\::/ \._______\

Actually I'm not. I still do the occasional hotlap session, but I've run too many races and been hit with the f*^&%* yellow flag bug, so I now only run league races, and then without practice. It just annoys me too much. I actually worry about the opposite - that people will see my posts here and read them as being "an official statement" of SRN! Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm\::/ \._______\

Wait till your car goes in for a service and the garage decides to ignore you for six months. After all, you only bought a product, you don't expect it to WORK as well do you?

In your eagerness to post an elaborate reply, you appear to have contrived to miss the entire point of what Terje was saying. A case in point is your problem with Ford. Why? Because _you_accepted_it. As long as you lay down, rolled over and let ford tickle your tummy while they played around with your car, they will do that again and again and again. Make them aware that you're not happy, take your business elsewhere, demand a courtesy car or compensation for the inconvenience they caused you. You ARE entitled to it, but they won't offer as they expect the customers to follow the flock. Customers have the ultimate power, but only when they realise it and too many just hand over their cash and accept the terms dictated. Cheers! John

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> says... > >writes > >>What you paid for seven months ago was what you GOT seven months ago, unless > >>there was an agreement somewhere in the box that you'd get a free upgrade. > >No. > >I paid for a game _WITHOUT_ bugs. If the box advertised "yellow flag bug > >which means you can never finish a race" then I wouldn't have bought (or > >not without knowing it was going to be fixed free of charge). > The box also did not say "this game is bug free." Most software you buy, > especially games, will have bugs somewhere. Unfortunately most stores don't > take returns on software, so we have no direct recourse.

DC, If you feel that ICR2 works just fine, then you obviously aren't an IndyCar fan, just a virtual racer (not that there's anything wrong with that, as Jerry Seinfeld said). If you watched the real races, you'd realize what an integral part of racing the yellow flags are...they can mean the difference between winning and losing. That doesn't mean I don't like the game...on the other hand, I love it, but I want the damn bugs fixed. The game is a near perfect representation of CART, but with the yellow flag bug, it's defective. Do we expect bug free software? No..very few programs get shipped bug-free, but they get patched. What was the point in Papyrus waiting for the Win95 version to ship before the DOS patch goes out? To reduce the distribution costs, no doubt. When IndyCar (the original) shipped, there were about 3 patches in the first month, if my memory serves me (correct me if I'm wrong). What happened to that level of customer service? Sierra flushed it, apparently. Neil -- Meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

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>(1) What is this "flaming" arguement really doing to the support we >expect and relish by the Papyrus developers who seem to frequent this >newsgroup and give us their valued time and insite further into their >products. What this has become must truly be driving them away from >even saying anything further. It is obvious to me that if it was soley >in R. Genter's power for example to have released this patch now, it >would have been but he may not have been in a position to yet. Don't >forget the Sierra factor. As several people suggested, "Write Sierra >and yell at them" .

You're right. I let myself get out of hand with the patch whiners and created this monster. You input was timely and well-intentioned (i.e., more than 2 cents). Right again. I don't take well to personal attacks, and perhaps in my zeal to complain about the whining I let the emotions of the moment get the better of me. Other than one reply in particular (Ray), I've dealt with the opinions and have thought them in good taste. My next response (if any) will be under a new heading. Consider that done. KS

says...

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>writes >>The box also did not say "this game is bug free." Most software you buy, >>especially games, will have bugs somewhere. Unfortunately most stores don't >>take returns on software, so we have no direct recourse. >Oh please. If software is bugged then the authors have are responsible >to fix it, if not legally then morally. If they don't fix it, and in a >timely fashion, I won't by any more of their products which is death for >any company. >Papyrus do excellent work, and if it wasn't for that then I wouldn't buy >any more of their products - I think their action over this ICR2 patch >has been very sloppy, and insulting to the people that bought the game >originally. To delay the patch and divert that work toward NASCAR2 and >all the other projects is dismissive to the point of contempt.

I only got IRC2 a month or two ago, so I haven't been waiting 8 months for a patch. It has bugs, but I feel I got my money's worth from the gameplay. I still spend all my time trying to drive the car (read- I still suck exhaust fumes) so the bugs don't bother me. So i'm satisfied with the game even with it's flaws, and you aren't (again, correct me if i'm wrong) because it doesn't work 100%, which you need. For a $20,000 car, i'd pitch a ***. For a $50 game, no. The car analogy was flawed from the beginning 'cause a car is tangible and software isn't, so I never should have said it. I'm tired of debating, I have nothing more to say about this topic (which was pretty silly to begin with, and I don't even remember how it started, and... awww heck.)

get a clue, and stop flaming everyone. For once someone said something inteligent in this thread, but I guess it takes a certain kind of person to appreciate it. Gregory Fung Vancouver, B.C., Canada

Well, as for the car, I don't own one..... When I bought (check that, WON!!) ICR2, it ran like a dream...the only bug that I saw was the paint seam bug, and that was fixed. Sure, I have a few gripes, the way the field behaves during the pace lap at Indy, etc., etc. BUT I DON'T whine!!! I personally think ICR2 is a great product. When NASCAR came out, I paid full price for the game, and the T.P. There were some big problems with NCAR, but I didn't care. I paid hard- earned cash, and this game was worth it, bugs or no. Some of you probably have a right to grumble, and some of you are just spoiled brats, you know who you are. Benjamin Fields

[major snippage] You have to quote 77 lines to say this? You should probably get a ***ing life so we don't have to waste time and money on a bonehead newbie post like this. The older I get, the better I was -Seen on a No Fear shirt-

Yes!!! Have you ever given birth? (A question that has as much relevance as yours) Once again......Its not just that they released a product with some pretty major bugs(for the 3rd time), it has taken them 8 months to fix it. Does that seem like a reasonable amount of time to you? If so, you are hopeless!!! Enough said!!!

: Mick, : Have you ever written a program? Some of us have. I know the problems. The problem as I see it is that Papyrus has spread themselves thin. Certain items have taken precedent over releasing a timely fix to the original ICR2 DOS version. Should I be happy that they are working on NASCAR2 / NRL / ICR2 for Win95/Mac? Yes. But can I also not be pleased with the fact that I have a product I bought in Nov '95 to simulate racing which is still "crippled"? I think so. Their decisions were based on "business" concerns. Well one of the business concerns they should consider is customer satisfaction. This can sometimes be based soley on perceptions and gut feelings. Well there are plenty out here that have a gut feeling that we have been slighted on this one. It is a BIG deal? No not really, but it can have it's repercussions -- take a look at Intel & their Pentium bug snafu. I am not blasting anyone or supporting anyone, just voicing my opinions. Maybe I shouldn't feel the way I do, but then maybe I am justified. Having said all of that, I will sit back im-patiently and wait for the final release of the patch. At least I know it will eventually arrive. I still have that much faith in Papyrus and yes even in Sierra On-Line. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Mike, I see your point. Your irritation at Papyrus is warrented, considering that the patch still isn't here. On another related point, a friend got and attempted to install the WIN95 version of Nascar (I think). It bombed both his systems. Not really in the mood to go into details, but it apparently screwed around with his video drivers. Not cool. P.

> On another related point, a friend got and attempted to install the >WIN95 version of Nascar (I think). It bombed both his systems. Not really in >the mood to go into details, but it apparently screwed around with his video >drivers. Not cool. > P. There is no Win95 Nascar... you must be thinking of ICR2. The problem you describe sounds like the DirectX (supplied by Microsoft) install did something to his systems... What video card does he have? I have heard of other products which include DirectX in their install to cause similar problems for certain video cards. /scott -- Scott Marison, Software Engineer Sierra On-Line/Papyrus Division