Hawaii 800 #?

I was wondering why Hawaii can't use like an 800 number or something. Or something else. I would gladly pay $40 a month to race on Hawaii. I can't keep up with this phone bill. It's too ***ing. :) I think it would be great if an 800 number could be used, but I'm not a phone guy so I don't know if it's possible. Sean Higgins

>I was wondering why Hawaii can't use like an 800 number or something. Or >something else. I would gladly pay $40 a month to race on Hawaii. I >can't keep up with this phone bill. It's too ***ing. :) I think it >would be great if an 800 number could be used, but I'm not a phone guy so >I don't know if it's possible. >Sean Higgins Sean, wouldn't that be great. I would gladly pay $40-50 a month. What about it Ed? -- Michael Kirton

>I was wondering why Hawaii can't use like an 800 number or something. Or >something else. I would gladly pay $40 a month to race on Hawaii. I >can't keep up with this phone bill. It's too ***ing. :) I think it >would be great if an 800 number could be used, but I'm not a phone guy so >I don't know if it's possible. >Sean Higgins Sounds like a great idea Sean. I personally cant afford to spend $400 a month much longer and will have to stop calling. I think this will happen to a lot of us before local access is available. Of course, there will always be "newbies" that find out about the service and will call for a month, realize they cant afford it and stop calling, just like me. I would think that retention of beta testers would be important to Papyrus. I would gladly pay $40-$50 a month if Papy would make 800 numbers available. BTW, Ed, ya'll keep up the good work. -- Michael Kirton

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>I was wondering why Hawaii can't use like an 800 number or something. Or >something else. I would gladly pay $40 a month to race on Hawaii. I >can't keep up with this phone bill. It's too ***ing. :) I think it >would be great if an 800 number could be used, but I'm not a phone guy so >I don't know if it's possible. >Sean Higgins

Sean, Hawaii can use an 800 number, but the problem is, it still costs just about the same amount which it costs you to make the long distance call yourself. Worse, Papyrus would have to add markup and charge you for unbillable 1-800 charges, so effectively you would wind up paying about the same as the "10 cents a minute" rate you can get from some long distance carriers. Wish it were otherwise, but that's the status quo in today's telecomm world. We're working on it, but there isn't any simple way to deliver NASCAR multiplayer nationwide for a lower cost, or we'd have already done it! Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group

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>Sounds like a great idea Sean. I personally cant afford to spend $400 >a month much longer and will have to stop calling. I think this will >happen to a lot of us before local access is available. Of course, >there will always be "newbies" that find out about the service and >will call for a month, realize they cant afford it and stop calling, >just like me. I would think that retention of beta testers would be >important to Papyrus. I would gladly pay $40-$50 a month if Papy would >make 800 numbers available.

Michael, I'd like to encourage you to get into a league or two, and focus your Hawaii racing time into a few races ... spend a few evenings getting setup for the particular track you'll be racing on, rather than driving in a bunch of quick pickup races. You should be able to keep your long distance bill down to a reasonable level and might even enjoy the racing more when you've prepared for a competitive field. Just my $0.02, but we'd prefer to have y'all around for the long term rather than going bust on a couple of whopping long distance bills... Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group

>Michael, I'd like to encourage you to get into a league or two, and focus >your Hawaii racing time into a few races ... spend a few evenings getting >setup for the particular track you'll be racing on, rather than driving in >a bunch of quick pickup races. You should be able to keep your long >distance bill down to a reasonable level and might even enjoy the racing >more when you've prepared for a competitive field. Well put, Charlie. I haven't raced a pickup race for about a month now, and I really don't miss it. I spend a lot of time preparing for races now and my qual times and race results are starting to show it. You also spend a larger percentage of your LD $$$ on racing instead of sitting in the chat room because league races typically run 25-40% in length. And if I really need a fix of head-to-head racing, I modem race with Randy on a DSVD modem, which in some ways is even more fun, because you can yak back and forth while you drive. We follow each other around, giving each other driving tips, work on setups together, then practice trying to pass each other. We had a blast modem-racing at Long Beach in ICR2 the other day, I was less than a car length off his gear box for about 5 laps while he managed to successfully hold me off, until I punted him going into turn 4. Join a league, the drivers are usually of a higher caliber, the races have a lot fewer incidents than your average pickup race, and its fun to compete with the same guys week after week. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

Excellant advice David....advice everybody except those totally dega racers should take...they can stay and wreck all by themselves..they seem good at it. Randy Peppler

>I was wondering why Hawaii can't use like an 800 number or something. Or >something else. I would gladly pay $40 a month to race on Hawaii. I >can't keep up with this phone bill. It's too ***ing. :) I think it >would be great if an 800 number could be used, but I'm not a phone guy so >I don't know if it's possible. >Sean Higgins Charlie Heath's posting pretty much said it all. An 800 # is not the answer. Just to cover our costs, we'd end up having to bill y'all about 10 cents/minute. 800 #'s are tarrifed... in other words, the rates are regulated. It's not like you "buy" an 800 # & just use it all you want. 800 #'s are billed by the minute (actually, it's broken down to 6 second increments, but that's not important). I'd love to be able to set up an "all you can stand for $40/month" prototype, but it just can't be done. I encourage everyone to read my letter that is automatically downloaded to everyone who logs on to Hawaii. It was put up there on Tuesday. After you connect & download, you will find the file NRL_0696.TXT in your NASCAR directory. It goes into a very long discussion about this stuff. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

I see why you don't do it now. I don't know too much about 800#'s now I do. Thanks for your response. Sean Higgins

Just put NASCAR (and INDYCAR) on INN then everyone in the country can access it via a local number....

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>>I was wondering why Hawaii can't use like an 800 number or something. Or >>something else. I would gladly pay $40 a month to race on Hawaii. I >>can't keep up with this phone bill. It's too ***ing. :) I think it >>would be great if an 800 number could be used, but I'm not a phone guy so >>I don't know if it's possible. >>Sean Higgins >Charlie Heath's posting pretty much said it all. An 800 # is not the >answer. Just to cover our costs, we'd end up having to bill y'all >about 10 cents/minute. >800 #'s are tarrifed... in other words, the rates are regulated. It's >not like you "buy" an 800 # & just use it all you want. 800 #'s are >billed by the minute (actually, it's broken down to 6 second >increments, but that's not important). >I'd love to be able to set up an "all you can stand for $40/month" >prototype, but it just can't be done. >I encourage everyone to read my letter that is automatically >downloaded to everyone who logs on to Hawaii. It was put up there on >Tuesday. After you connect & download, you will find the file >NRL_0696.TXT in your NASCAR directory. It goes into a very long >discussion about this stuff. >Ed Martin >Producer, Series Director >NASCAR Racing League >Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Now that Papyrus sims have been taken over by SIERRA why can't you use the same telcom technology that their INN uses. Sierra has had local access number access for the entire country for more than 4 years now. If Papyrus is going to sell out to the big software giants they should reap their high end perks. Just an opinion from a guy with a $300 phone bill....

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>>I was wondering why Hawaii can't use like an 800 number or something. Or >>something else. I would gladly pay $40 a month to race on Hawaii. I >>can't keep up with this phone bill. It's too ***ing. :) I think it >>would be great if an 800 number could be used, but I'm not a phone guy so >>I don't know if it's possible. >>Sean Higgins >Sean, Hawaii can use an 800 number, but the problem is, it still costs just >about the same amount which it costs you to make the long distance call >yourself. Worse, Papyrus would have to add markup and charge you for >unbillable 1-800 charges, so effectively you would wind up paying about the >same as the "10 cents a minute" rate you can get from some long distance >carriers. >Wish it were otherwise, but that's the status quo in today's telecomm >world. We're working on it, but there isn't any simple way to deliver >NASCAR multiplayer nationwide for a lower cost, or we'd have already done >it! >Charlie Heath >Papyrus Design Group

> Just put NASCAR (and INDYCAR) on INN then everyone in the country can access it > via a local number.... You obviously didn't read Ed's letter. It's not possible with Nascar or anyother driving game due to latency problems. A completely new, highspeed switching system must be built in order to use local numbers and even that has hurdles.

>Now that Papyrus sims have been taken over by SIERRA why can't you use the same >telcom technology that their INN uses. Sierra has had local access number >access for the entire country for more than 4 years now. If Papyrus is going to >sell out to the big software giants they should reap their high end perks. >Just an opinion from a guy with a $300 phone bill.... INN was sold to AT&T almost 2 years ago. Regardless, INN utilizes a high latency network. Ironically, even though INN is owned by AT&T, until very recently, they were using SprintNet for their data network! NRL will not work with latencies above 250 millisenconds (1/4 of a second). I've posted a lot of stuff up here about low latency so I won't repeat it. Bottom line, INN can not deliver the low latency we need. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

But aren't the results pretty much the same each race since you're racing the same drivers? Doesn't that make it difficult to increase your skill level? Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA

>> Join a league, the drivers are usually of a higher caliber, the races have >> a lot fewer incidents than your average pickup race, and its fun to compete >> with the same guys week after week. >But aren't the results pretty much the same each race since you're racing >the same drivers? Doesn't that make it difficult to increase your skill level? I haven't been racing in a league long enough to say for certain what will happen over an entire season. But, having examined the HAL series and from my own limited experience, I can extrapolate what will happen. There will always be a few drivers that just naturally percolate to the top. This is consistent with WC racing, Earnhardt, Gordon, Labonte and a few others nearly always finish in the top 10. There will be a certain amount of stratification, as drivers settle into a few competitive groups. Finally, most drivers have tracks where they do well, so they may pop up a level at a certain track and run at a higher level of competition. If you look at the way the skill level system works, it is easier to advance than to decline. Your 2 worst scores are always thrown out and at certain points (level 4,7,10 and 13), it is requires fewer points to advance to that level than it does to decline. If you have the MPANAL32 program, you can see the anomalies in the stats that show this is happening. I actually believe it is easier to improve your skill level in a league than in pickup races because you will finish races more consistently. However, you have to be racing with people of a similar numerical skill level (a level 0 racing against a bunch level 11's is not going anywhere), and you have to be competitive with some subgroup of that league. BTW, skill level is really only important when you're racing in pickup races. In a league, the only thing that counts is the season standings. However, this probably won't be true with NRL, since you won't be racing the same drivers every week. I assume they will group drivers by skill level for NRL. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

> Now that Papyrus sims have been taken over by SIERRA why can't you use the same > telcom technology that their INN uses. Sierra has had local access number > access for the entire country for more than 4 years now. If Papyrus is going to > sell out to the big software giants they should reap their high end perks. > Just an opinion from a guy with a $300 phone bill.... You didn't read this message from Charlie. You cannot use INN for Nascar..the latency times are TOO long. NASCAR requires that know EXACTLY where the other car since you are often nose to tail or door to door. Long latency times cause you to see where the car was X milliseconds ago. Can you drive with a blind fold? If you can, you are a better driver than most. Ken Hower KenH

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> > Join a league, the drivers are usually of a higher caliber, the races have > > a lot fewer incidents than your average pickup race, and its fun to compete > > with the same guys week after week. > > Dave "davids" Sparks > But aren't the results pretty much the same each race since you're racing the same > drivers? Doesn't that make it difficult to increase your skill level?

No. What's worse for your skill level is racing in open races against 0,1,2,3 level drivers getting wiped out on the first turn by some idiot and finishing in last place. That's what makes it hard to increase your level. Increasing your laps/per incident and finishing high in races with drivers with high skill levels will serve your skill level much better.

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>> > Join a league, the drivers are usually of a higher caliber, the races have >> > a lot fewer incidents than your average pickup race, and its fun to compete >> > with the same guys week after week. >> > Dave "davids" Sparks >> But aren't the results pretty much the same each race since you're racing the same >> drivers? Doesn't that make it difficult to increase your skill level? >No. What's worse for your skill level is racing in open races against 0,1,2,3 level >drivers getting wiped out on the first turn by some idiot and finishing in last place. >That's what makes it hard to increase your level. Increasing your laps/per incident >and finishing high in races with drivers with high skill levels will serve your skill >level much better.

Gee, thanks. It's this kind of attitude on Hawaii that makes it so tough to even join a race against good competition. Everyone starts somewhere, but I've noticed that most of the 8 on up level racers either nominate a race at level 5 or above. So how does someone raise their level if they can't race against them? This elitist ***has gotta go. David Range "DJR" on Hawaii

In a 7-15 pickup race at Taladega the other night, 75% of then starting field was wiped out on the first lap. If we had allowed the 0-6 riff-raff to race with us everyone might have been wiped out.:) Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA

It has nothing to do with elitism.. many of us have lost skill points repeatedly by being crashed out of races. Once you are a level 8 or higher (which could be sooner than you think), you too, will not want to join races with unknown quantities. When skill levels per track-type become a reality, it will even be better, as skill 8,9,10 means very little when it was earned on Tally, and then used at Martinsville or North Wilkesboro. Tim V

writes: starting field was wiped Your right about those dega races but here is the important point about racing higher level drivers... If you race someone who is more than two points higher in skill or two points lower it DOES NOT EFFECT YOUR SKILL. If you are a skill 3 and race in a race with all 6,7,8,9,10,11 and now 12's your skill will not change even if you win!! You need to race 0,1,2,3,4 and beat them with no INCIDENTS! You will rocket up to a 5 or 8 easily. By the same token if I race (skill 9) all 5,4,3,2,1 and 0 skill drivers I will not advance in skill. Read the SKILL.txt file carefully and if you have a question don't ask know the anwsers but give out bad information because of ignorance. I have been mislead many times by well meaning drivers. Tim Daley timdaley on Hawaii

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> > Gee, thanks. It's this kind of attitude on Hawaii that makes it so > > tough to even join a race against good competition. Everyone starts > > somewhere, but I've noticed that most of the 8 on up level racers > > either nominate a race at level 5 or above. So how does someone raise > > their level if they can't race against them? This elitist ***has > > gotta go. > > David Range > > "DJR" on Hawaii > In a 7-15 pickup race at Taladega the other night, 75% of then starting field was wiped > out on the first lap. If we had allowed the 0-6 riff-raff to race with us everyone might > have been wiped out.:) > Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA

It's hardy a proud comment that 75% of the field in your 7-15 Tal race got wiped-out on the first lap... sounds an awful lot like a bunch of rookies to me.

The reason the level 8's and above nominate 5-15 races is because would you rather get last (because of and accident) with a ton of level 0,1 and 2's or drivers that are closer to your level. I'm not too sure about this point system for the levels, but it makes sense to me that if you get beat by level 5's it's not as bad as getting beat by some level 0's. Sean Higgins Higgy

I knew I'd get in trouble for posting this, but I still feel it's a legitimate complaint. I'll post my e-mail response below.

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>> Gee, thanks. It's this kind of attitude on Hawaii that makes it so >> tough to even join a race against good competition. Everyone starts >> somewhere, but I've noticed that most of the 8 on up level racers >> either nominate a race at level 5 or above. So how does someone raise >> their level if they can't race against them? This elitist ***has >> gotta go. >> David Range >> "DJR" on Hawaii >It has nothing to do with elitism.. many of us have lost skill points >repeatedly by being crashed out of races. Once you are a level 8 or >higher (which could be sooner than you think), you too, will not want >to join races with unknown quantities.

I understand your point. Now let me explain mine. I currently run 186 to 187's at Atlanta, 189-190's at Michigan, etc. I've had races where I've been knocked out by higher and lower level racers. I've even (unfortunately) knocked out other racers, for which I apologize. It was a mistake, nothing more. It happens in real life, as it does on Hawaii. To blame ALL low level racers for these crashes is unfair, and makes it harder for them to move up the ladder, much less race against the upper level drivers. For instance, say there was a level 7-15 race at Michigan, and say a racer that everyone respected and knew could race couldn't because he was a Level 5. I don't race against upper level drivers to gain points, but to learn from them. Without the better racers , how can we expect these bad racers to learn? I agree. But it doesn't solve the problem as a whole. What I'd like to see is an addition to the nominate window allowing the person who nominated the race to allow drivers in not only on their skill rating but also by their reputattion. If the other drivers agree to allow that racer in, they can join. David Range

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>writes: >>> Gee, thanks. It's this kind of attitude on Hawaii that makes it so >>> tough to even join a race against good competition. Everyone starts >>> somewhere, but I've noticed that most of the 8 on up level racers >>> either nominate a race at level 5 or above. So how does someone >>> raise their level if they can't race against them? This elitist ***has >>> gotta go. >>> David Range >>> "DJR" on Hawaii >>In a 7-15 pickup race at Taladega the other night, 75% of then >>starting field was wiped out on the first lap. If we had allowed >>the 0-6 riff-raff to race with us everyone might have been wiped out.:) >>Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA > Your right about those dega races but here is the important point >about racing higher level drivers... >If you race someone who is more than two points higher in skill or two >points lower it DOES NOT EFFECT YOUR SKILL. If you are a skill 3 and >race in a race with all 6,7,8,9,10,11 and now 12's your skill will not >change even if you win!! You need to race 0,1,2,3,4 and beat them with >no INCIDENTS! You will rocket up to a 5 or 8 easily. By the same token >if I race (skill 9) all 5,4,3,2,1 and 0 skill drivers I will not >advance in skill. >Read the SKILL.txt file carefully and if you have a question don't ask >know the anwsers but give out bad information because of ignorance. I >have been mislead many times by well meaning drivers.

Actually, I'm at level 4. But it still doesn't change the fact that to become a better racer you need to race against better competition. I.E. watch their line. I am aware of the skill point system and how it works, but it's hard to do if you're not allowed to race with them. Consider also that there are racers on Hawaii who are at higher levels by racing only at Talladega. If you're racing C***te against one, how would you know? Who's to say that he wouldn't wipe out the field? Blaming lower level racers for being reckless and unworthy to race with is unfair. I enjoy racing on Hawaii, and I have become a better racer with the help of a friend and watching other racers with the replay feature. I save every race I'm in and replay it to watch where I've made mistakes, or to study a leader's line or a pass. But if this continues to occur, there will be less "good" racers to run with, and more "bad" racers. (Stepping off soapbox) David Range David Range

The problem I see with your ideas are, that if you are a lower level driver than the rest of the field and have little experience on that track, then you shouldn't be racing hte higher level guys to the first turn. I have been in this situation many times, being a lower level driver. I will go way out of my way to avoid contact and try and follow the drivers to learn the line. I'm not saying the lower level drivers should be racing, just not to take chances if your inexperienced. I moved pretty fast up from level 3 to 9, granted about 60% of my races are at Talladega, but I do race other tracks. Especially since I've been slammed so many times lately on talladega. Sean Higgins Higgy

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>If you race someone who is more than two points higher in skill or two >points lower it DOES NOT EFFECT YOUR SKILL. If you are a skill 3 and >race in a race with all 6,7,8,9,10,11 and now 12's your skill will not >change even if you win!! You need to race 0,1,2,3,4 and beat them with >no INCIDENTS! You will rocket up to a 5 or 8 easily. By the same token >if I race (skill 9) all 5,4,3,2,1 and 0 skill drivers I will not >advance in skill.

I've read SKILL.txt, and I rechecked it, and by the letter of the file you're correct. But why should this be the case? I was under the impression that if you beat someone 10 levels higher you'd only get a +5, not +13 (that's not really fair). I think this makes more sense anyways. Gregory Fung Vancouver, B.C., Canada

>Gee, thanks. It's this kind of attitude on Hawaii that makes it so >tough to even join a race against good competition. Everyone starts >somewhere, but I've noticed that most of the 8 on up level racers >either nominate a race at level 5 or above. So how does someone raise >their level if they can't race against them? This elitist ***has >gotta go. You have to race against people within 2 skill levels of your rating to make or lose points. Unfortunately, this means that good drivers will have to race in those 0-2 pickup races until they get enough points to increase their rating. Luckily, it doesn't take long to do that. The average driver goes from Level 0 to Level 2 in 9 races. As you get to higher skill levels, it takes more points to go up a level, so drivers tend to advance more slowly. You have to get a string of decent finishes to advance. Read the SKILLS.TXT file for more information. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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> > > Join a league, the drivers are usually of a higher caliber, the races have > > > a lot fewer incidents than your average pickup race, and its fun to compete > > > with the same guys week after week. > > > Dave "davids" Sparks > > But aren't the results pretty much the same each race since you're racing the same > > drivers? Doesn't that make it difficult to increase your skill level? > No. What's worse for your skill level is racing in open races against 0,1,2,3 level > drivers getting wiped out on the first turn by some idiot and finishing in last place. > That's what makes it hard to increase your level. Increasing your laps/per incident > and finishing high in races with drivers with high skill levels will serve your skill > level much better.

I don't know. I went from 0 to 9 in three weeks racing 0-15 Taladega pickup races. Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA

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> > > > Join a league, the drivers are usually of a higher caliber, the races have > > > > a lot fewer incidents than your average pickup race, and its fun to compete > > > > with the same guys week after week. > > > > Dave "davids" Sparks > > > But aren't the results pretty much the same each race since you're racing the same > > > drivers? Doesn't that make it difficult to increase your skill level? > > No. What's worse for your skill level is racing in open races against 0,1,2,3 level > > drivers getting wiped out on the first turn by some idiot and finishing in last place. > > That's what makes it hard to increase your level. Increasing your laps/per incident > > and finishing high in races with drivers with high skill levels will serve your skill > > level much better. > I don't know. I went from 0 to 9 in three weeks racing 0-15 Taladega pickup races. > Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA

I did the same thing in Three Weeks... just stayed out of acidents... Tim Daley Milford MI