Hawaii cars drawn ahead

How many cars is everyone displaying ahead of them in Hawaii? I have my system set to display 38 ahead of me and when I race online, it only draws about 5. I've tried 20 and it still only draws 5. Does the hawaii server reduce this for you if you have a bad connection, or a bad latency period? I always get the "you have a shakey connection" message. Anybody know? Ed? Rick? David Martin

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> How many cars is everyone displaying ahead of them in Hawaii? I have my > system set to display 38 ahead of me and when I race online, it only > draws about 5. I've tried 20 and it still only draws 5. Does the > hawaii server reduce this for you if you have a bad connection, or a bad > latency period? I always get the "you have a shakey connection" > message. > Anybody know? Ed? Rick? > David Martin

I have noticed the same thing. I've tried to adjust this too, but it doesn't ever seem to draw more than 6 or 7 cars. Don Clawson

>How many cars is everyone displaying ahead of them in Hawaii? I have my >system set to display 38 ahead of me and when I race online, it only >draws about 5. I've tried 20 and it still only draws 5. Does the >hawaii server reduce this for you if you have a bad connection, or a bad >latency period? I always get the "you have a shakey connection" >message. >Anybody know? Ed? Rick? >David Martin I believe that multiplayer defaults to 8 ahead even if your setting is more.

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>> How many cars is everyone displaying ahead of them in Hawaii? I have my >> system set to display 38 ahead of me and when I race online, it only >> draws about 5. I've tried 20 and it still only draws 5. Does the >> hawaii server reduce this for you if you have a bad connection, or a bad >> latency period? I always get the "you have a shakey connection" >> message. >> Anybody know? Ed? Rick? >> David Martin > I have noticed the same thing. I've tried to adjust this too, but it > doesn't ever seem to draw more than 6 or 7 cars. > Don Clawson

Another thing I've noticed along these same lines is cars ahead disapearing and reapearing right in front of me. It seems to happen when that car gets loose or wreaks. Its annoying enough to have someone spin out in front of you, but to not even be able to tell which way their going is very anoying.

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>> How many cars is everyone displaying ahead of them in Hawaii? I have my >> system set to display 38 ahead of me and when I race online, it only >> draws about 5. I've tried 20 and it still only draws 5. Does the >> hawaii server reduce this for you if you have a bad connection, or a bad >> latency period? I always get the "you have a shakey connection" >> message. >> Anybody know? Ed? Rick? >> David Martin >I have noticed the same thing. I've tried to adjust this too, but it >doesn't ever seem to draw more than 6 or 7 cars. >Don Clawson

We are only sending a limited number of cars per packet, so yoy will only see about 5-7 ahead & 2-3 behind. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

>How many cars is everyone displaying ahead of them in Hawaii? I have my >system set to display 38 ahead of me and when I race online, it only >draws about 5. I've tried 20 and it still only draws 5. Does the >hawaii server reduce this for you if you have a bad connection, or a bad >latency period? I always get the "you have a shakey connection" >message. The number of cars is limited by the bandwidth on the communication channel. The server only gives you information about the cars in your immediate vicinity. Changing the number of cars drawn won't have any effect on this. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

>We are only sending a limited number of cars per packet, so you will >only see about 5-7 ahead & 2-3 behind. I think this is probably the single biggest cause (other than plain-old stupid driving) of the 'start of race' accidents that seem to occur on the majority of the races I've run. It's a little frustrating to head into turn one, only to have a car pop up right in front of you, stopped dead in it's tracks, or sideways across the track. I think the inability to adjust speed and/or direction to avoid these mishaps is why you seen 10 or 15 people taken out in a lot of these races, instead of just the two or three that are initially involved in the problem. In a related question, does the server adjust packet information on the available link throughput? For instance, if someone calls in on a 28.8 modem, do they get twice as many packet updates (or twice as much packet information) as someone using a 14.4 modem? It would be nice to give those with faster connections as much information as you could jam down the link. Best regards, Ron Mackey Distributed Systems International, Inc. 708-665-4639 Wheaton, IL 60187-5057

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>>We are only sending a limited number of cars per packet, so you will >>only see about 5-7 ahead & 2-3 behind. >I think this is probably the single biggest cause (other than plain-old >stupid driving) of the 'start of race' accidents that seem to occur on >the majority of the races I've run. It's a little frustrating to head >into turn one, only to have a car pop up right in front of you, stopped >dead in it's tracks, or sideways across the track. >I think the inability to adjust speed and/or direction to avoid these >mishaps is why you seen 10 or 15 people taken out in a lot of these >races, instead of just the two or three that are initially involved in >the problem.

I agree that it's frustrating to have a car pop up in front of you. But ask yourself why there are 2 or 3 cars involved in a wreck in T1 on the first lap of a race. The problem is drivers who still haven't figured out that you don't win a race on cold tires in the first lap. The sad thing is that they'll probably never figure it out. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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> >> How many cars is everyone displaying ahead of them in Hawaii? I have my > We are only sending a limited number of cars per packet, so yoy will > only see about 5-7 ahead & 2-3 behind. > Ed Martin > Producer, Series Director > NASCAR Racing League > Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Thanks Ed, I thought there might have been something wrong with my system since I recently upgraded to a P133. I understand completely and I hope :-) that eventually we will be able to see at least 10-12 cars. David Martin

Are we saying that Hawaii ignores my options menu where I set the # of cars drawn ahead and behind? It seemed to me that the 10 cars drawn ahead I had set up in my options menu wasn't being displayed. If that is an option that is disabled by Hawaii, then I think we need to suggest that there be a change for this in N2. And I agree that this may be the cause of the multiple car pile ups, especially at Talladega, that seem to RUIN each and every race I run there. I end up getting into someone who crashed in front of me in every race I run there. I thought I had that problem solved by qualifying in the top 10, but the guys up front are crashing too! Which brings me back to the point of "Why are you guys crashing on the first lap at Talladega, anyway. Wouldn't you rather finish 4th or 5th on the lead lap than 23rd, 5 laps down? Come on Hawaiians! Tom

The problem is that YOU are in too much of a hurry... the process at Talledega is this. Unless you can Qualify in the top 6 you qualify slowest..31st when the green flag drops. DON'T START ( no one is behind you so its not a problem). Count to 15 (12 second or so). Then go. You will fly through the carnage because all the wrecks are being towed and you can see the one or two cars out on the grass and track. I have run 30 races with this strategy and have finished no worse than 7th. I won 2 and came in 2nd on three. The thing is you have clean sheet metal and turn good times. and lots of times the leaders get nervous and passed and bump into things. It works best if you get a partner and Draft together because you can catch the leaders sometimes. I moved from a 0 to 8 in one week...

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> The problem is that YOU are in too much of a hurry... the process at > Talledega is this. > Unless you can Qualify in the top 6 you qualify slowest..31st when the > green flag drops. > DON'T START ( no one is behind you so its not a problem). Count to 15 (12 > second or so). > Then go. You will fly through the carnage because all the wrecks are > being towed and > you can see the one or two cars out on the grass and track. I have run 30 > races with this strategy and have finished no worse than 7th. I won 2 and > came in 2nd on three. The thing is you have clean sheet metal and turn > good times. and lots of times the leaders get nervous and passed and bump > into things. It works best if you get a partner and Draft together > because you can catch the leaders sometimes. > I moved from a 0 to 8 in one week...

That's not racing, buster. In a real race you would be black flagged. Everyone is supposed to start at the same speed. If everyone realized (or cared) that the tri-oval is no place to pass, we'd all be able to enjoy Talladega more. Until then, I won't go to Alabama in my stock car unless I'm running against drivers that care about the spirit of competition. You know, that spirit that you obviously don't have. With the current skills rating formula, it doesn't take a great driver to move up. Especially one that can't drive any other track besides Talladega. I, for one of many people, will be glad when they start doing skill ratings for each track. Let's see ya go from 0 to 8 in a week on a track like Phoenix. David Martin

>> The problem is that YOU are in too much of a hurry... the process at >> Talledega is this. >> Unless you can Qualify in the top 6 you qualify slowest..31st when the >> green flag drops. >> DON'T START ( no one is behind you so its not a problem). Count to 15 (12 >> second or so). >> Then go. You will fly through the carnage because all the wrecks are >> being towed and >> you can see the one or two cars out on the grass and track. I have run 30 >> races with this strategy and have finished no worse than 7th. I won 2 and >> came in 2nd on three. The thing is you have clean sheet metal and turn >> good times. and lots of times the leaders get nervous and passed and bump

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>> into things. It works best if you get a partner and Draft together >> because you can catch the leaders sometimes. >> I moved from a 0 to 8 in one week... >That's not racing, buster. In a real race you would be black flagged. >Everyone is supposed to start at the same speed. If everyone realized >(or cared) that the tri-oval is no place to pass, we'd all be able to >enjoy Talladega more. Until then, I won't go to Alabama in my stock

car

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>unless I'm running against drivers that care about the spirit of >competition. You know, that spirit that you obviously don't have. >With the current skills rating formula, it doesn't take a great driver >to move up. Especially one that can't drive any other track besides >Talladega. I, for one of many people, will be glad when they start >doing skill ratings for each track. Let's see ya go from 0 to 8 in a >week on a track like Phoenix. >David Martin

David I'll be happy to race you at any track. I was responding to the ***in about how he got knocked out of a race every time. I had it happen to me. And it is partly because of the lack of visibility ahead on Hawaii.5 to 7 cars instead of 20. I suppose I'm more competative if I slam into the Knuckle Heads who can't hold a line and race with a keyboard (zig Zaggin all over and not warping). OBTW they don't know how to use the mirrors and try to pass on cold tires in first lap. I race in leagues with 7 thru 11's and I am competative not the fastest but I usually manage a top ten finish. I want the racing to be like it was in 78 and 79 when I raced Sportsman Cars on the short tracks in Michigan and Ohio. Everybody out their worked and saved and got the Cars ready...No big sponsers either. We weren't about to slam into anybody or take stupid chances. I'm seeing more of that attitude. And maybe when this becomes a real league they will assess $penalties and you have to pay to come back and race... Well lets just say we should be able to keep the knuckleheads off the track. The way the real guys do it is to wait forThe other racers misteaks and take advantage of them. Not go out hell bent for lexington and slam into the wall on the first turn and take out 1/2 the field. Sorry you think I was being uncompetative. Not my intent. Just trying to help a poor sole get out of the trenches if he has the ability and race in the upper levels with some talent. Talledga is the track I race the least but I do prefer the other superspeedways. See ya on the Track Tim Daley

> Are we saying that Hawaii ignores my options menu where I set the ># of cars drawn ahead and behind? It seemed to me that the 10 cars drawn >ahead I had set up in my options menu wasn't being displayed. If that is >an option that is disabled by Hawaii, then I think we need to suggest >that there be a change for this in N2. It has to do with the amount of bandwidth on that tiny little telephone wire, not the software. I haven't sat down to calculate it, but I'd bet that Papyrus has done about all they can to compress the data being sent. So, until we have ISDN or high bandwidth cable modems for NRL, we'll have to make do. I was in two league races at Talladega last night. I watched normally rational, sane, competent drivers turn into raving maniacs. There's got to be some sort of male hormone thing going on here, or maybe Ed's right and the track IS haunted. Think about it: You're traveling roughly the length of a football field every second. At 15 fps, that's more than a car length every frame. You drive 2 feet off the bumper of the car in front of you. Now, let's throw in a warp every once in a while, just to stir things up a bit. Are you still wondering why there's so many crashes? Here's a few secrets: You don't have to be 2 feet behind the car in front to catch a draft. You can stay a couple of car lengths back and you'll still have to lift to keep from getting into the back of the car you're drafting. Try drafting for a few laps as a pack instead of trying to constantly pass each other. It's fun and it's actually more challenging than passing. Unfortunately, none of this is likely to change things at Talladega. So my best suggestion is to race at a track where people don't drive like lunatics and leave Talladega for the crazies. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

> Are we saying that Hawaii ignores my options menu where I set the ># of cars drawn ahead and behind? It seemed to me that the 10 cars drawn >ahead I had set up in my options menu wasn't being displayed. If that is >an option that is disabled by Hawaii, then I think we need to suggest >that there be a change for this in N2. No, we're saying that Hawaii is sending you information about cars traveling at 200 MPH, accurate to within a fraction of an inch, as well as yaw information accurate to 1/4 degree, through a modem. We can't repeal the speed of light, nor can we cram 32 cars onto the head of a pin. We'd love to be able to send you more cars, but latency, frequency of transmission, and reliability are higher priorities for modem racing! Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group

>Thanks Ed, I thought there might have been something wrong with my >system since I recently upgraded to a P133. I understand completely and >I hope :-) that eventually we will be able to see at least 10-12 cars. >David Martin David - our first priority is getting clean and reliable connections, rather than increasing number of cars (and amount of data shoved through the modem). When something like ISDN becomes a viable consumer WAN service, we'll give you a bunch more cars and some other goodies as well. In the short to medium term, we're focusing first and foremost on minimizing dropped and marginal connections. In the mean time, if you've got a faster connection, you benifit about as much from reducing latency as you can by increasing the number of viewable cars. Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group

> No, we're saying that Hawaii is sending you information about cars > traveling at 200 MPH, accurate to within a fraction of an inch, as well as > yaw information accurate to 1/4 degree, through a modem. We can't repeal > the speed of light, nor can we cram 32 cars onto the head of a pin. We'd > love to be able to send you more cars, but latency, frequency of > transmission, and reliability are higher priorities for modem racing! Charlie, What is different about the 2 player modem racing? My understanding is that the answering machine is in control and I thought that meant that it was sending the dialing machine information about all of the cars all of the time. From your posts, it appears that this isn't the case because the modem bandwidth isn't high enough. How are the positions of the AI cars kept syncronized between the two machines? Thanks for helping to educate the r.a.s community. Regards, Brad

> Which brings me back to the point of "Why are you guys crashing on > the first lap at Talladega, anyway. Wouldn't you rather finish 4th or > 5th on the lead lap than 23rd, 5 laps down? Come on Hawaiians! I have no idea. If everyone just got in line...eventually the faster cars would pass and move ahead...but no..everyone, including the cars in 10th place qualifying want to be in first place coming out of turn 2 on lap 1....stupid. If you qualify in 10th place...did you ever think that maybe there's a REASON! Ken

I agree Ken, if you qualify in 10th place, there's probably a reason for it. If everyone would stay in line and try to get into a draft, there would be a lot less crashing. I tend to qualify about 8th to 15th, and when I'm on the outside, I run the outside through turns 1 & 2. Sure I lose a couple of positions, but I don't run into anyone either. I think you've hit it on the head. Everybody wants on the bottom, and tries to go to the front, but there's only so much room ...... Tom

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>> I moved from a 0 to 8 in one week... >That's not racing, buster. In a real race you would be black flagged. >Everyone is supposed to start at the same speed. If everyone realized >(or cared) that the tri-oval is no place to pass, we'd all be able to >enjoy Talladega more. Until then, I won't go to Alabama in my stock car >unless I'm running against drivers that care about the spirit of >competition. You know, that spirit that you obviously don't have.

Now THAT was real appropriate... :( You slam a guy for trying to AVOID incidents? How do YOU know about his spirit? Just because he isn't able to get the pole position everytime (and thus avoid most of the idiots), you dismiss him as somehow 'unworthy'. That's not fair. Why don't you attack the morons that CAUSE pace lap pileups, not the people who try to avoid them? ________ Eldred Pickett I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!?

>What is different about the 2 player modem racing? My understanding is >that the answering machine is in control and I thought that meant that it >was sending the dialing machine information about all of the cars all of >the time. Nope. It only sends the cars in the immediate vicinity of the dial-in driver's car, the same as Hawaii. In fact, I haven't found any significant difference between the 2-player "client" and the Hawaii "client". The client machine must keep the server machine updated with the location of the dial-in driver's car. The server machine then sends back information on the cars in the immediate vicinity of the dial-in car. If you ever modem race, save a replay and check around, you'll see you can only find about 10 cars or so in the replay, even when a full field starts. The server machine has a complete replay, however. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

When I do this it seems that a few cars get together and slide up the track and usualy take me out or I slam them cause I have nowhere to go. Gene

Drivng on the apron at Dega isn't REAL racing either but I bet YOU do it :) Can you really question his spirit for trying to avoid that invetible first turn pile up? I do agree with you about the skill rating formula. And as far as those that can only drive Dega, those guys will back markers at most tracks when the NRL gets cranked up. They are only cheating themselves. -------------- Michael Kirton

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> Drivng on the apron at Dega isn't REAL racing either but I bet YOU do > it :) Can you really question his spirit for trying to avoid that > invetible first turn pile up? I do agree with you about the skill > rating formula. And as far as those that can only drive Dega, those > guys will back markers at most tracks when the NRL gets cranked up. > They are only cheating themselves. > -------------- > Michael Kirton

As a matter of fact, I DO NOT drive on the apron at Talladega. Not even during qualifying. David Martin

David, If you don't drive below the white line, what's your average qual time at 70 degrees with no wind. I do drive with my right tires on the the white line and I have found that it is the fastest way around the track, at least for me. I can usually only qualify at about 193.400. I can't seem to do better even with other guys set ups that run faster than me. I'm usually 10th to 15th in qual. I usually finish in the top 7, due to all the doofs going two wide in the tri or 3-4 wide in the turns. Sean Higgins Higgy

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> David, > If you don't drive below the white line, what's your average qual time > at 70 degrees with no wind. > I do drive with my right tires on the the white line and I have found > that it is the fastest way around the track, at least for me. I can > usually only qualify at about 193.400. I can't seem to do better even > with other guys set ups that run faster than me. I'm usually 10th to > 15th in qual. I usually finish in the top 7, due to all the doofs going > two wide in the tri or 3-4 wide in the turns. > Sean Higgins > Higgy

Me too. How do guys like ssone come up with those qualifying times? Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA

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> >As a matter of fact, I DO NOT drive on the apron at Talladega. Not even > >during qualifying. > >David Martin > Hi David, > I didnt mean to sound disrespectful in my post. I am all for realism > but one also has to adapt to the situation. And based on my > experience, if you are going to be competative at Dega you HAVE to > drive on the apron....

I have to agree. The only way to eliminate the apron is to eliminate the apron. NCR2 (hopefully) will do that. In the mean time, I fell like I have to do what I have to do (sadly). David Thompson Hawaii: dglenn

>As a matter of fact, I DO NOT drive on the apron at Talladega. Not even >during qualifying. >David Martin Hi David, I didnt mean to sound disrespectful in my post. I am all for realism but one also has to adapt to the situation. And based on my experience, if you are going to be competative at Dega you HAVE to drive on the apron. I have seen some fast guys using different lines, some using the apron more than others, but I have yet to see someone win at Dega and not drive on the apron. -------------- Michael Kirton

I drive Taladega because I can only drive tracks which allow automatic shifting and continuous 'pedal to the metal' racing. I always qualify last because I'm not fast enough to qualify in the first row or two nor good enough yet to race 200 mph, bumper to bumper, door handle to door handle. Is my fault all those yahoos take each other out on the first lap. Chuck Stuart - Mesquite TX USA Hawaii: ChuckStuart(9)