Legal Freon Substitute

A Louisiana-based company is now selling a FREON Substitute. That's right! Call 504-522-2222 * Absolutely 100% Legal * Perfect Performance and Refrigeration substitute for Freon * No license requried to buy * Will sell to anyone * Refrigeration/FREON substitute * Does not depleat Ozone layer * Retail $12.95 Contact: Meyer's Auto Parts New Orleans, Louisiana (504) 522-2222

I don't think so...It's defined as a non-CFC based refrigerant know as HFC-134.

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> A Louisiana-based company is now selling a FREON Substitute. That's > right! Call 504-522-2222 > * Absolutely 100% Legal > * Perfect Performance and Refrigeration substitute for Freon > * No license requried to buy > * Will sell to anyone > * Refrigeration/FREON substitute > * Does not depleat Ozone layer > * Retail $12.95 > Contact: > Meyer's Auto Parts > New Orleans, Louisiana > (504) 522-2222

It's called: BLOCK OF ICE...

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> Augustus Kimberly) writes: > >So what the hell is it? This isn't going to start another dangers of > >propane thread is it? > >-- > > '...4.5.6.7.all good cretins go to heaven!' > I don't think so...It's defined as a non-CFC based refrigerant know as > HFC-134.

Am I missing something here? It seems to me that posting a "freon" spam on rec.MOTORCYCLE.Whatever is as useful as *** on a bull. I guess in order to be honest if I sell my bike I've got to advertize it as having "no air". Rich

And how can I put it on my computer???

IS IT FLAMABLE??? *

A company called "InterCool Energy" apparently has the first EPA-certified R-12 replacement called FR-12. For more information: http://www.napsnet.com/auto/32873.html or do a Web search on "InterCool Energy."

: I guess in order to be honest if I sell my bike I've got to advertize it : as having "no air". : Rich I thought you got a hell of a lot of air on a bike :-) Though having seen bikes with hifi setups in fairings, how far are we away from bikes with chilled air hoses to their riders space-suits ? Hmmm riding through town in a faithful replica of an Apollo suit would certainly cause a stir... Cheers David

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>: I guess in order to be honest if I sell my bike I've got to advertize it >: as having "no air". >: Rich > I thought you got a hell of a lot of air on a bike :-) > Though having seen bikes with hifi setups in fairings, how far are we >away from bikes with chilled air hoses to their riders space-suits ? > Hmmm riding through town in a faithful replica of an Apollo suit would >certainly cause a stir... > Cheers > David

Dontcha think the bio-heat of powering the airco pump would exceed the cooling effect? Don't believe the human body is a very efficient engine....;-)) Bye, W.J. Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand

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> >A Louisiana-based company is now selling a FREON Substitute. That's > >right! Call 504-522-2222 > >* Absolutely 100% Legal > >* Perfect Performance and Refrigeration substitute for Freon > >* No license requried to buy > >* Will sell to anyone > >* Refrigeration/FREON substitute > >* Does not depleat Ozone layer > >* Retail $12.95 > > Contact: > > Meyer's Auto Parts > > New Orleans, Louisiana > > (504) 522-2222 > IS IT FLAMABLE??? > *

It is... All kinds of people are probably flaming him right now for crossposting to irrelevant groups. Dan

For the complete list of acc. refrigerants, see <URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/macssubs.html> or call our hotline at 800-296-1996 and ask for copies of "Choosing and Using Alt. Ref. in MVACS" Jeffrey Levy USEPA

I read a post a while back that talked about Lease cars and what to and not to look for!! Well I am the guy you FEAR! I am the one who goes on vacation and rents a luxury 40,000 car like a lincoln Towne car or a caddilac Seville! Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and leave it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able beaches like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about 100 Mph and do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on high and If I am waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral till the rev-limiter kicks er off and on and hold it there and slam it into gear. The Lincoln I had started smoking after 2 days of this so I took it to a car wash cleaned it in and out , called the 1-800 # and told em to come get the damn thing and they do every time! I feel its my right to do this. Cause if guys like me dont they will SHAFT the rest of you with the cars at 30,000 miles and I guarantee they wont keep the ones I drive that long...... Also NEVER sign the Insurance waiver thing. Use your own and let them worry about it if it gets crashed. I had one stolen in florida 2 years ago and the chick said "For 2 dollars more You could have gotten theft Insurance" I said what the *** do I care it wasnt mine and You cant claim it on my insurance since you "HERTZ" is self insured. They tried it though and my company "State fFarm" told em to BLOW!!! I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a little pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 years now and never had a problem.....at least I never had one.....heheheh LOL ROTFL -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

: Dontcha think the bio-heat of powering the airco pump would exceed the : cooling effect? : Don't believe the human body is a very efficient engine....;-)) Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. I was joking about the idea of a motorbike with an airconditioning system feeding cooled air to a spacesuited rider. Maybe we are misunderst - Oh, did you think I meant a pedal cycle ? Ah. Sorry, I was thinking of a BMW RS100 poster a colleague had with a rider in a full white suit and helmet, I always thought it was an attempt to look like "Apollo" styling. Cheers David

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>Subject: Re: How I drive lease cars!!-To Death >Date: 14 Jun 1996 05:03:09 GMT > I read a post a while back that talked about Lease cars and what to >and not to look for!! > Well I am the guy you FEAR! I am the one who goes on vacation and >rents a luxury 40,000 car like a lincoln Towne car or a caddilac >Seville! > Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and leave >it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able beaches >like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about 100 Mph and >do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on high and If I am >waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral till the rev-limiter >kicks er off and on and hold it there and slam it into gear. > The Lincoln I had started smoking after 2 days of this so I took it to >a car wash cleaned it in and out , called the 1-800 # and told em to >come get the damn thing and they do every time! > I feel its my right to do this. Cause if guys like me dont they will >SHAFT the rest of you with the cars at 30,000 miles and I guarantee >they wont keep the ones I drive that long...... > Also NEVER sign the Insurance waiver thing. Use your own and let them >worry about it if it gets crashed. I had one stolen in florida 2 years >ago and the chick said "For 2 dollars more You could have gotten theft >Insurance" I said what the *** do I care it wasnt mine and You cant >claim it on my insurance since you "HERTZ" is self insured. > They tried it though and my company "State fFarm" told em to BLOW!!! > I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a little >pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 years now >and never had a problem.....at least I never had one.....heheheh LOL >ROTFL >-- >Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > E-Mail > Your comments always welcome

I like it!

> Who pays for your car abuse? We do. Thanks. > -- > Al.. . . WE!? No not me! -- JP

: Hmmm riding through town in a faithful replica of an Apollo suit would : certainly cause a stir... One way to find out. I'm about to head through downtown Kansas City during rush hour in a suit of 15th century plate armor on a 750... J.Politte

<moronic blither deleted> It's funny the number of posts there are that serve no purpose, except to ***people off enough to send you hate mail. And from the looks of where this is going...there will be alot of it! If this is the case...JOB WELL DONE! Otherwise I say you're a liar. I bet you rent apartments,***on the carpet then move and tell us that you're doing us a favor..thanks alot. -- Ryan Thomas Abrahamson North Dakota State University mmmmmm.....bacon -Homer Simpson '66 Mustang cpe:'89 Mustang 5.0:'79 Impala (what can I say?) FORD! Where quality is job number....well it's up there anyway.

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> <moronic blither deleted> > It's funny the number of posts there are that serve no purpose, except to >***people off enough to send you hate mail. And from the looks of > where this is going...there will be alot of it! > If this is the case...JOB WELL DONE! > Otherwise I say you're a liar. I bet you rent apartments,***on the > carpet then move and tell us that you're doing us a favor..thanks alot.

Abrahamson North Dakota State University Obviously his parents treated him like that too, like a piece of worthless trash he is...he's now blaming the rest of the world!!! -- / - BRONCO*351 - FXDWG - / / _ _ /) PH(208)396-3146 FX(208)396-4139 Karl Fengler Hewlett-Packard Co. Boise,ID.USA -!! You Have Strayed Upon The Motorway To HELL !!-

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> >A Louisiana-based company is now selling a FREON Substitute. > >* Absolutely 100% Legal > >* Perfect Performance and Refrigeration substitute for Freon > >* No license requried to buy > >* Will sell to anyone > >* Refrigeration/FREON substitute > >* Does not depleat Ozone layer > >* Retail $12.95 > And how can I put it on my computer???.

Wow!!!! I have had a problem with the a/c in my Racecar, now I have none. And i'm not depleting the Ozone!!!! . -- ````````````````` James Patrick ` Bronson, IA. ` `````````````````

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> Though having seen bikes with hifi setups in fairings, how far are we > away from bikes with chilled air hoses to their riders space-suits ? > Hmmm riding through town in a faithful replica of an Apollo suit would > certainly cause a stir... > Cheers > David

I saw a picture in a cycling magazine of a tandem bicycle in Phoenix with air conditioning. They were towing the air conditioner made into a trailer along behind them with hoses connected to the white suits they were wearing. And yes, they were getting a lot of strange looks. Bill-- /\, X International Christian Cycling Club, Tandem Club of America '\ / Colorado Tandem Club, Falcon Wanderers, High Plains Drifters X This content in no way reflects the opinions, standards, or policy (*) of the United States Air Force Academy or the United States government

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>>A Louisiana-based company is now selling a FREON Substitute. That's >>right! Call 504-522-2222 >>* Absolutely 100% Legal >>* Perfect Performance and Refrigeration substitute for Freon >>* No license requried to buy >>* Will sell to anyone >>* Refrigeration/FREON substitute >>* Does not depleat Ozone layer >>* Retail $12.95 >> Contact: >> Meyer's Auto Parts >> New Orleans, Louisiana >> (504) 522-2222 >IS IT FLAMABLE???

It is Frigic. All other stuff was pulled by the EPA. Frigic is safe new drop in freon replacement.

writes: FR-12, Frigic, EPA approved, safety tested drop in.

Markerink) writes: >>: I guess in order to be honest if I sell my bike I've got to advertize it >>: as having "no air". >>: Rich >> I thought you got a hell of a lot of air on a bike :-) >> Though having seen bikes with hifi setups in fairings, how far are we >>away from bikes with chilled air hoses to their riders space-suits ? >> Hmmm riding through town in a faithful replica of an Apollo suit would

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>>certainly cause a stir... >> Cheers >> David >Dontcha think the bio-heat of powering the airco pump would exceed the >cooling effect? >Don't believe the human body is a very efficient engine....;-)) >Bye, >W.J. Markerink > The desire to understand >is sometimes far less intelligent than > the inability to understand

Just put a tent over your bike!!!!

Volvo makes an R-134 conversion kit for their cars, which happily use the same air conditioning gear as most GM cars. It has been suggested that a GM car A/C system can be converted to R-134 using this kit. Given that Freon R-134 is the proven technology that all newer cars use, such an upgrade (if available parts allow) seems to be the smart way to go for fixing/recharging an older car's A/C system. Yeah, right. Something that the world governments, the mfgrs, the refrig industry all somehow MISSED in their desperate search for a substitute for the ozone-depleting Freon R-12. Uh huh. And you're going to tell us that it'll work fine on our car, with no degradation of efficiency, no damage to the refrigeration system, and no hazard to the automobile or occupants. Something SO UNIQUE that we cannot buy it at any chemical supply house, only from you. Pull my other leg. -Bob

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> >Subject: Re: How I drive lease cars!!-To Death > >Date: 14 Jun 1996 05:03:09 GMT > > I read a post a while back that talked about Lease cars and what to > >and not to look for!! > > Well I am the guy you FEAR! I am the one who goes on vacation and > >rents a luxury 40,000 car like a lincoln Towne car or a caddilac > >Seville! > > Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and leave > >it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able beaches > >like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about 100 Mph and > >do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on high and If I am > >waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral till the rev-limiter > >kicks er off and on and hold it there and slam it into gear. > > The Lincoln I had started smoking after 2 days of this so I took it to > >a car wash cleaned it in and out , called the 1-800 # and told em to > >come get the damn thing and they do every time! > > I feel its my right to do this. Cause if guys like me dont they will > >SHAFT the rest of you with the cars at 30,000 miles and I guarantee > >they wont keep the ones I drive that long...... > > Also NEVER sign the Insurance waiver thing. Use your own and let them > >worry about it if it gets crashed. I had one stolen in florida 2 years > >ago and the chick said "For 2 dollars more You could have gotten theft > >Insurance" I said what the *** do I care it wasnt mine and You cant > >claim it on my insurance since you "HERTZ" is self insured. > > They tried it though and my company "State fFarm" told em to BLOW!!! > > I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a little > >pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 years now > >and never had a problem.....at least I never had one.....heheheh LOL > >ROTFL > >-- > >Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > > E-Mail > > Your comments always welcome

There are jerks everywhere, the above posting is simple proof.....thanks for increasing the rates I have to pay to rent cars! -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

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> writes: > >A company called "InterCool Energy" apparently has the first > >EPA-certified R-12 replacement called FR-12. For more information: > >http://www.napsnet.com/auto/32873.html > >or do a Web search on "InterCool Energy." > FR-12, Frigic, EPA approved, safety tested drop in.

Sorry to be picky here, but there are two mistakes in this description: 1) EPA doesn't "approve" anything, which implies we somehow recommend it. We simply find products acceptable or unacceptable. FR-12 is acceptable, provided you meet the fittings, labels, and *no drop-in* requirements. That means you have to first remove the R-12 from the system. I'll check out the web site and make sure it accurately describes the situation. We're getting very concerned about improper marketing claims. We don't allow the mixing of refrigerants in order to keep the recycled supply of CFC-12 pure for as long as possible. ALL of the new refrigerants, other than 134a, are basically tested on a few vehicles in a few situations, and we don't believe it's been demonstrated that they work in all cars or trucks under all conditions. So use your best judgement. You should read two fact sheets. The first, at <URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/macssubs.html> discusses the situation for motor vehicle refrigerants. The second, at <URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/buying.html> discusses several questions you should ask before purchasing any alternative refrigerant. I'm not saying FR isn't a good product; I'm just saying you should ask a lot of questions and assume nothing about any substitute. Jeffrey Levy USEPA

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> >A Louisiana-based company is now selling a FREON Substitute. That's > >right! Call 504-522-2222 > >* Absolutely 100% Legal > >* Perfect Performance and Refrigeration substitute for Freon > >* No license requried to buy > >* Will sell to anyone > >* Refrigeration/FREON substitute > >* Does not depleat Ozone layer > >* Retail $12.95 > > Contact: > > Meyer's Auto Parts > > New Orleans, Louisiana > > (504) 522-2222 > IS IT FLAMABLE???

I don't know exactly what it is, but there isn't a single "ozone-safe" refrigerant on the market today other than HFC-134a for use in motor vehicle air conditioning. Again, see our fact sheet at <URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/macssubs.html> for more information. Also, note that for all EPA-acceptable refrigerants, you must use unique fittings, you must apply a label, and you must remove the R-12 first. There is no such thing as a legal "drop-in." Read our fact sheet to find out why preventing cross-contamination of refrigerants is important. Jeffrey Levy USEPA

No you dont pay for my abuse you IDIOT! It comes out of the plutocrats pockets!! how high will rental car prices go>?? Not far people wont rent em!! writes: -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

Come on EVERY ONE let me hear your rental car tear up stories they are fun and exciting!!! Steele) writes:

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>>Subject: Re: How I drive lease cars!!-To Death >>Date: 14 Jun 1996 05:03:09 GMT >> I read a post a while back that talked about Lease cars and what to >>and not to look for!! >> Well I am the guy you FEAR! I am the one who goes on vacation and >>rents a luxury 40,000 car like a lincoln Towne car or a caddilac >>Seville! >> Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and

leave >>it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able beaches >>like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about 100 Mph and >>do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on high and If I am >>waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral till the rev-limiter >>kicks er off and on and hold it there and slam it into gear. >> The Lincoln I had started smoking after 2 days of this so I took it to

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>>a car wash cleaned it in and out , called the 1-800 # and told em to >>come get the damn thing and they do every time! >> I feel its my right to do this. Cause if guys like me dont they will >>SHAFT the rest of you with the cars at 30,000 miles and I guarantee >>they wont keep the ones I drive that long...... >> Also NEVER sign the Insurance waiver thing. Use your own and let

them >>worry about it if it gets crashed. I had one stolen in florida 2 years >>ago and the chick said "For 2 dollars more You could have gotten theft

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>>Insurance" I said what the *** do I care it wasnt mine and You cant >>claim it on my insurance since you "HERTZ" is self insured. >> They tried it though and my company "State fFarm" told em to BLOW!!! >> I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a little >>pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 years now >>and never had a problem.....at least I never had one.....heheheh LOL >>ROTFL >>-- >>Stop =-POLICE-= ***. >> E-Mail >> Your comments always welcome >I like it!

-- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

RIGHT!! No I dont lie But I love HATE mail send it to me!!! NOW!! You ***! Abrahamson) writes: ><moronic blither deleted> >It's funny the number of posts there are that serve no purpose, except to

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>piss people off enough to send you hate mail. And from the looks of >where this is going...there will be alot of it! >If this is the case...JOB WELL DONE! >Otherwise I say you're a liar. I bet you rent apartments,***on the >carpet then move and tell us that you're doing us a favor..thanks

alot. >-- >Ryan Thomas Abrahamson North Dakota State University > mmmmmm.....bacon -Homer Simpson > '66 Mustang cpe:'89 Mustang 5.0:'79 Impala (what can I say?) > FORD! Where quality is job number....well it's up there anyway. -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

Oh come one I am just haveing a little fun!!! Get out from behind your monitor once in a while guy!!! Take a walk and lose a few punds off that fat ass of yours!! >> >Subject: Re: How I drive lease cars!!-To Death >> >Date: 14 Jun 1996 05:03:09 GMT >> > I read a post a while back that talked about Lease cars and what to

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>> >and not to look for!! >> > Well I am the guy you FEAR! I am the one who goes on vacation and >> >rents a luxury 40,000 car like a lincoln Towne car or a caddilac >> >Seville! >> > Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and

leave >> >it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able beaches >> >like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about 100 Mph and >> >do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on high and If I am >> >waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral till the rev-limiter >> >kicks er off and on and hold it there and slam it into gear. >> > The Lincoln I had started smoking after 2 days of this so I took it to >> >a car wash cleaned it in and out , called the 1-800 # and told em to >> >come get the damn thing and they do every time! >> > I feel its my right to do this. Cause if guys like me dont they will >> >SHAFT the rest of you with the cars at 30,000 miles and I guarantee >> >they wont keep the ones I drive that long...... >> > Also NEVER sign the Insurance waiver thing. Use your own and let them >> >worry about it if it gets crashed. I had one stolen in florida 2 years >> >ago and the chick said "For 2 dollars more You could have gotten theft >> >Insurance" I said what the *** do I care it wasnt mine and You cant >> >claim it on my insurance since you "HERTZ" is self insured. >> > They tried it though and my company "State fFarm" told em to BLOW!!! >> > I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a little >> >pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 years now >> >and never had a problem.....at least I never had one.....heheheh LOL

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>> >ROTFL >> >-- >> >Stop =-POLICE-= ***. >> > E-Mail >> > Your comments always welcome >There are jerks everywhere, the above posting is simple

proof.....thanks >for increasing the rates I have to pay to rent cars! >-- >Jerry Bransford >PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. >The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything! -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

You're awfully brave on your keyboard...when is the last time you called someone a "fat ass" to their face? If you said that to my face, it would be the *last* time you would say it. -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything! > Oh come one I am just haveing a little fun!!! Get out from behind your > monitor once in a while guy!!! Take a walk and lose a few punds off > that fat ass of yours!! > >> >Subject: Re: How I drive lease cars!!-To Death > >> >Date: 14 Jun 1996 05:03:09 GMT > >> > I read a post a while back that talked about Lease cars and what > to > >> >and not to look for!! > >> > Well I am the guy you FEAR! I am the one who goes on vacation and > >> >rents a luxury 40,000 car like a lincoln Towne car or a caddilac > >> >Seville! > >> > Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and > leave > >> >it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able beaches > >> >like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about 100 Mph > and > >> >do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on high and If I > am > >> >waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral till the rev-limiter > >> >kicks er off and on and hold it there and slam it into gear. > >> > The Lincoln I had started smoking after 2 days of this so I took > it to > >> >a car wash cleaned it in and out , called the 1-800 # and told em > to > >> >come get the damn thing and they do every time! > >> > I feel its my right to do this. Cause if guys like me dont they > will > >> >SHAFT the rest of you with the cars at 30,000 miles and I guarantee > >> >they wont keep the ones I drive that long...... > >> > Also NEVER sign the Insurance waiver thing. Use your own and let > them > >> >worry about it if it gets crashed. I had one stolen in florida 2 > years > >> >ago and the chick said "For 2 dollars more You could have gotten > theft > >> >Insurance" I said what the *** do I care it wasnt mine and You > cant > >> >claim it on my insurance since you "HERTZ" is self insured. > >> > They tried it though and my company "State fFarm" told em to > BLOW!!! > >> > I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a little > >> >pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 years > now > >> >and never had a problem.....at least I never had one.....heheheh > LOL > >> >ROTFL > >> >-- > >> >Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > >> > E-Mail > >> > Your comments always welcome > >There are jerks everywhere, the above posting is simple > proof.....thanks > >for increasing the rates I have to pay to rent cars! > >-- > >Jerry Bransford > >PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. > >The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything! > -- > Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > E-Mail > Your comments always welcome

Right on! Trashing rental cars is a gas! Some folks might not appreciate the idea, but then ***ing things up isn't for everybody, right? Besides, Hertz wouldn't hesitate to poke you in your rear if they got a chance... Personally, I can think of a few.. there was that Regal that went back minus a BIG hunk of *** from a 50' slide care of a bottle of bourbon and a hankering to make a little noise at 3:00 am. I can still remember the hangover and the fwap-fwap-fwap of the tires on the way back to the lot.. and the Cougar that took a beating on the railroad tracks one night .. oh, and the Tracer that mysteriously hit a pole (testing the 5mph bumpers).. and the brand new New Yorker with the ruined carpets (frequented steel mills and the like at the time -- some of the most amazingly dirty places, incredible gunk you get into).. then there was that Cutlass my friend showed up in a few years back. I wound up doing tour duty in SF for three fatsos (all over 300#). Up and down over telegraph hill, up and down through the east bay hills, all over Marin headlands, you name it. The rotors were warped like a potato chip, boiled the brake fluid, and the transmission starting to slip pretty bad. Piece of ***car, that was. It always amazed me that people actually buy used rental cars.. I mean, ever check out anything else that was a rental .. like tools, or a house? Go figure. -t-

> No you dont pay for my abuse you IDIOT! > It comes out of the plutocrats pockets!! how high will rental car > prices go>?? Not far people wont rent em!! What do you think happens after the rental company tows the car to the junkyard? They write the car off as a loss and pass the cost on to the insurance company who passes the cost on to.... now think real hard.... EVERYONE in the form of higher premiums. In case you forgot, a premium is the already exorbitant amount of money you pay every six months to insure your car. Of course, you will probably say, "Well then people won't buy insurance!" in your initimable witty fashion. The problem is you need insurance to drive unless you want to go to lose your license... hmmm... wait... on second though, don't pay your premium. If you did lose your license, insurance rates would drop inside two weeks. -- Shawn London

Children will be children. This is why you have to be over 25 to rent a car! -- Charles Prichard, Maitland FL

> What do you think happens after the rental company tows the car to the > junkyard? They write the car off as a loss and pass the cost on to the > insurance company who passes the cost on to.... now think real hard.... > EVERYONE in the form of higher premiums. In case you forgot, a premium is Aw, crap. Don't even push my button about insurance companies (I live in CA, does it show?) Go ahead -- bust up a couple rentals cars. They can absorb it. --Tom

: No you dont pay for my abuse you IDIOT! : It comes out of the plutocrats pockets!! how high will rental car : prices go>?? Not far people wont rent em!! You ***, rental car companies buy new cars for one reason. They're under the manufacturer's warranty. Which means that the manufacturer ends up paying for it, not the rental company, and that cost is passed down to the consumer. Ryan

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>I don't know exactly what it is, but there isn't a single "ozone-safe" >refrigerant on the market today other than HFC-134a for use in motor >vehicle air conditioning. Again, see our fact sheet at ><URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/macssubs.html> >for more information. Also, note that for all EPA-acceptable >refrigerants, you must use unique fittings, you must apply a label, and >you must remove the R-12 first. There is no such thing as a legal >"drop-in." Read our fact sheet to find out why preventing >cross-contamination of refrigerants is important. >Jeffrey Levy >USEPA

Actually, Jeffery... I hear this all the time...and please don't think I'm picking on you... But ALL of the refrigerants are ozone-safe. I find it amazing that you personally buy into the nonsense about them destroying the ozone hole. What's even more amazing is that, while it's taken 50 years of production, and massive releases to damage the ozone they say, supposedly it's already healing - and it's supposed to be due to the new laws. I don't get it, freon-12 is almost harmless, it's not poisonous unless burned, but 134a is lethal. And, it's 4 times the cost. I figure that's where the REAL value of it is. You should be ashamed to have your agency used politically to profit the maker of 134a. I hope Arizona sticks with their determination to re-start the production of r-12. The EPA lawsuit will have to PROVE the theory about ozone depletion, which it cannot do, and we'll be done with this nonsense. I'm in control, I'm The Wagonmaster! If you are into conservative politics autocross-SOLO II- or Excalibur BBS then I'm your man!

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>> >A Louisiana-based company is now selling a FREON Substitute. That's >> >right! Call 504-522-2222 >> >* Absolutely 100% Legal >> >* Perfect Performance and Refrigeration substitute for Freon >> >* No license requried to buy >> >* Will sell to anyone >> >* Refrigeration/FREON substitute >> >* Does not depleat Ozone layer >> >* Retail $12.95 >> > Contact: >> > Meyer's Auto Parts >> > New Orleans, Louisiana >> > (504) 522-2222 >> IS IT FLAMABLE??? >I don't know exactly what it is, but there isn't a single "ozone-safe" >refrigerant on the market today other than HFC-134a for use in motor >vehicle air conditioning. Again, see our fact sheet at ><URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/macssubs.html> >for more information. Also, note that for all EPA-acceptable >refrigerants, you must use unique fittings, you must apply a label, and >you must remove the R-12 first. There is no such thing as a legal >"drop-in." Read our fact sheet to find out why preventing >cross-contamination of refrigerants is important. >Jeffrey Levy >USEPA

What is the current position of (Solkane) 406a, heavily discussed last year on this group. I recall that it was 30% more efficient than R12 (with 134a being 30% less efficient than R12). The inventor of this gas was (is?) present on this group as well. Haven't seen any comments from him lately. Any comments? Bye, W.J. Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand

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>>I don't know exactly what it is, but there isn't a single "ozone-safe" >>refrigerant on the market today other than HFC-134a for use in motor >>vehicle air conditioning. Again, see our fact sheet at >><URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/macssubs.html> >>for more information. Also, note that for all EPA-acceptable >>refrigerants, you must use unique fittings, you must apply a label, and >>you must remove the R-12 first. There is no such thing as a legal >>"drop-in." Read our fact sheet to find out why preventing >>cross-contamination of refrigerants is important. >>Jeffrey Levy >>USEPA >Actually, Jeffery... I hear this all the time...and please don't think

I' >m >picking on you... But ALL of the refrigerants are ozone-safe Bullshit. . I find it Destroying the ozone hole? That's what we would LIKE to do. What's even more amazing is that, while it's taken 50 years o No it isn't already healing, it's going to get worse before it gets better. Where the hell do you get your misinformation? I figure that's where It has proven it to anybody that will read the results and use some common sense. I bet you won't believe that 1+1=2 unless it is tattoed to your forehead. >I'm in control, I'm The Wagonmaster! >If you are into conservative politics >autocross-SOLO II- or Excalibur BBS >then I'm your man! -- Additionally I would like to add a few comments of my own. These are my opinions, if you don't like them tough shit, I don't have to prove anything to anybody. I have children and my children will have children. I have no right whatsoever to destroy the world they will have to live in. Especially if for such a stupid reason that I am to cheap to have a leak fixed in my A/C system. My temporary coolness in my car isn't worth the risk of my offspring having to live with a very great risk of skin cancer etc. I grew up around the jersey shore, water that isn't even fit to swim in any more, because of idiots that think the ocean is too large to ever pollute. I wish everyone reading this would keep an open mind for a moment while I try to explain how small our atmosphere is. Any astronaut can tell you this in a second but let me try to give an example. Get a globe of the earth. Our breathable atmosphere stops at about say 15000 feet, that is less than 3 miles. Now get out a ruler and measure 2 points on the globe that you know are about 3 miles apart. Put a mark on the ruler at the 3 mile mark. Now stand that ruler up (perpendicular to the globe). See how small of a shell that 3 miles is around the earth? Pretty eye opening isn't it? There will be those that want to argue that our atmosphere actually extends to 120,000 feet or whatever, I don't care, it still is almost nothing in the above test. Our earth almost magically maintains a very delicate balance that happens to be in the area that keeps us alive. Our earth couldn't give a shit if we mere humans are here or not. As soon as the earth goes into open loop it will all be over very quickly and it will be too late to do anything about it. I'm not an alarmist by any means, but anyone who thinks we haven't already changed the earths atmosphere in an adverse way is just too stupid, too lazy, or just doesn't care enough to read the facts. Many of you out there won't agree with me and that is fine, this is my opinion based on scientific facts. Keep up the good work Jeffrey, it's nice to know that SOMEONE out there is looking out for us even if we are too ignorant to do it ourselves. Jordan Blessing L1 Master Tech

>> No you dont pay for my abuse you IDIOT! I'll bet you don't think you pay for others shoplifting or software pirating either! Get a clue!!!

YES!! must have the mind of a 6 year old

says... As far as I know, this is non-compatible with the older A/C systems... I seem to recall something about it eating seals made for the older refrigerants or something, so you may want to talk to a competent A/C shop before you jump at this one... --Glenn

>>picking on you... But ALL of the refrigerants are ozone-safe >Bullshit. The chemical reactions are as follows: R12 + 03 = R12-O + 02 R12-O + O3 = R12 + 2 O2 Repeat until ultraviolet light breaks up the R12...

I'm under 25, and I've rented quite a few cars, old man. -- "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue."

> Children will be children. This is why you have to be over 25 to rent a > car! > -- > Charles Prichard, Maitland FL Are you kidding me? That guy's probably 40. I know 15 year-olds with learner's permits who have more sense and a hell of a lot more idea about how to treat a car than that guy. Age has nothing to do with it... except that the rental car agents trust the guy implicitly since he's old, instead of calling the cops on him like they aught to. -- Shawn London

>> Children will be children. This is why you have to be over 25 to rent a

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>> car! >> -- >> Charles Prichard, Maitland FL >Are you kidding me? That guy's probably 40. I know 15 year-olds with >learner's permits who have more sense and a hell of a lot more idea

about >how to treat a car than that guy. Age has nothing to do with it... except >that the rental car agents trust the guy implicitly since he's old, >instead of calling the cops on him like they aught to. >-- >Shawn London FInally a man with some sense to know that 1) I am telling the truth and 2) there is NOTHING any of you can do about it!!! -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

You must have the *** of a 6 year old!! Grow some balls man!! -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

>> What do you think happens after the rental company tows the car to the >> junkyard? They write the car off as a loss and pass the cost on to the >> insurance company who passes the cost on to.... now think real hard.... >> EVERYONE in the form of higher premiums. In case you forgot, a premium is >Aw, crap. Don't even push my button about insurance companies (I live in CA, >does it show?) Go ahead -- bust up a couple rentals cars. They can absorb >it. >--Tom Right on!! and the RICH bastards who rent lincolns all the time will have to pay the price NOT ME!! I plan to Tear the hell out of a DODGE something this year in VEGAS!! I am going for 8 days and hope they give me a 4 cys one ill Roast it in an hour!! Then turn the replacement is SMOKING and dripping all fluids... -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

Then I guess its good ***in thing I dont buy new cars isnt it!! writes:

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>: No you dont pay for my abuse you IDIOT! >: It comes out of the plutocrats pockets!! how high will rental car >: prices go>?? Not far people wont rent em!! >You ***, rental car companies buy new cars for one reason. They're >under the manufacturer's warranty. Which means that the manufacturer >ends up paying for it, not the rental company, and that cost is passed >down to the consumer. >Ryan

-- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

I am 34!!! >Children will be children. This is why you have to be over 25 to rent a >car! >-- >Charles Prichard, Maitland FL -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

I dont buy Insurance its not MANDATORY in my state !! In

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>> No you dont pay for my abuse you IDIOT! >> It comes out of the plutocrats pockets!! how high will rental car >> prices go>?? Not far people wont rent em!! >What do you think happens after the rental company tows the car to the >junkyard? They write the car off as a loss and pass the cost on to

the >insurance company who passes the cost on to.... now think real hard.... >EVERYONE in the form of higher premiums. In case you forgot, a premium is >the already exorbitant amount of money you pay every six months to insure >your car. >Of course, you will probably say, "Well then people won't buy insurance!" >in your initimable witty fashion. The problem is you need insurance to >drive unless you want to go to lose your license... hmmm... wait... on >second though, don't pay your premium. If you did lose your license, >insurance rates would drop inside two weeks. >-- >Shawn London -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

: Then I guess its good ***in thing I dont buy new cars isnt it!! Well I do. And it's good to know that people with your kind of mentality remain low in social class. Ryan : >You ***, rental car companies buy new cars for one reason. They're : >under the manufacturer's warranty. Which means that the manufacturer : >ends up paying for it, not the rental company, and that cost is passed : >down to the consumer. : > : >Ryan

this stupid ***ing idiot is just looking for attention, probably because he is a complete social misfit that can't get a date. don't dignify his comments with responses. he is a moron.

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>: Then I guess its good ***in thing I dont buy new cars isnt it!! >Well I do. And it's good to know that people with your kind of mentality >remain low in social class. >Ryan >: >You ***, rental car companies buy new cars for one reason. They're >: >under the manufacturer's warranty. Which means that the manufacturer >: >ends up paying for it, not the rental company, and that cost is passed >: >down to the consumer. >: > >: >Ryan

: One way to find out. I'm about to head through downtown Kansas City : during rush hour in a suit of 15th century plate armor on a 750... I'd love to see it! Done it on Horseback (Jousting) but could certainly cause some stir in a city if you also carried a lance. Cheers David

After reading trhis thread I wonder why a guy lik eme who was raised wit h concepts such as repect for others properties can not rent a car 'cause I am unser 21 and you can... -srw

: : Actually, Jeffery... I hear this all the time...and please don't think I'm : picking on you... But ALL of the refrigerants are ozone-safe. I find it : amazing that you personally buy into the nonsense about them destroying the : ozone hole. What's even more amazing is that, while it's taken 50 years of : production, and massive releases to damage the ozone they say, supposedly : it's already healing - and it's supposed to be due to the new laws. Wrong. It's been proven scientifically (a term you don't seem familiar with) that CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Gee, some fool could say the earth is flat too. Doesn't make it so. You might read up on the science of the situation before showing off your right-wing extremist views. : : I don't get it, freon-12 is almost harmless, i Destroys ozone on the stratosphere, leading to increased uv radiation on earth, leading to skin cancer, cataracts, and genetic mutations. Hardly harmless. : t's not poisonous unless burned, : but 134a is lethal. Not so. Both kill by suffocation. : And, it's 4 times the cost. I figure that's where the : REAL value of it is. You should be ashamed to have your agency used : politically to profit the maker of 134a. You should be embarrasseed by your rantings that are unsupported by any science. : I hope Arizona sticks with their : determination to re-start the production of r-12. The EPA lawsuit will have : to PROVE the theory about ozone depletion, which it cannot do, and we'll be : done with this nonsense. : Well, AZ would first have to sue to overturn the federal ban, meaning they would have to prove CFCs are harmless. And they can't do that -- every scientific study has shwon CFCs destroy the ozone. The developers of this theory won the Nobel Prize, something not given for a theory not accepted by science. \

: : Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and leave (rest of spam deleted) Congrats! You win the troll of the month award! Welcome to my killfile, child!

I think you are all taking this 13 year old JOKER a little too serious. I guess it just gives you all something to do. my 2 cents JP

Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and leave rest of spam deleted) Congrats! You win the troll of the month award! Welcome to my killfile, child! Hey james, who really cares who is in your Kill file!!!!! do you think I or anyone else gives a rats ass about who is in your kill file?? do you always post random messages to yourself?? Your wit is so plastic and fake it makes my computer look like leather. Get a life you moron!----muskie

says... Hey langston, there only god damn cars, not humans you moron! If someone wants to bust up cars, who cares as long as its not yours? the rest of you freaks on here are so god damn materialistic that it makes me sick. OH no, hes got the mind of a six year old cause he busts cars! There are people dying and starving in other countries and the u.s.,and langston here is upset because S.L. busts cars! Get your damn priorities straight langston! and the rest of you idiots! S.L. BUST CARS, NOT PEOPLE. CARS DONT TALK TO YOU. CARS ARE NOT FAMILY. THEY ARE METAL AND *** AND PLASTIC. PEOPLE TALK TO YOU, AND ARE ALIVE, AND ARE OUR FRIENDS.\ NOR IS S.L. KILLING WILDLIFE. HE IS DRIVING HUNKS OF METAL FAST AND DOING DONUGHTS. YOU ALL ACT AS IF S.L. WAS DRIVING YOUR WIFE OR DAUGHTER,IN BED, AND NOT A STUPID CAR. Ive had it with this ignorant group! goodbye you robotic morons!!!!! --------Muskie

Know what a little bird told me? If you put synthetic oil in your a/c and solder in a bigger orifice tube, you can run 134a in an r-12 system. Cost: about six bucks and an hour. Kev -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Mather POD Engineering Dept. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1st....Stay out of this newsgroup....... 2nd....You're just simply stupid........ 3rd....Can't you be more creative other than trashing rental cars.... or don't you have good enough credit to buy your own car. Finally, and most importantly....We you do "bad things", "BAD THINGS" will happen to you....mark my words...sooner or later...it'll happen.....

This is fabulous!! All I do is start them, jam the pedal to the floor and listen to the rev limiter. Scares H**l out of passengers who think the engine is gonna explode. I usually try to spin the tires at 70 KPH in the rain. Much easier with the front wheel drive models. And, oh boy, Curbs LOOK OUT! NOCEMS. have your fun and drive it too....

> I read a post a while back that talked about Lease cars and what to >and not to look for!! > Well I am the guy you FEAR! I am the one who goes on vacation and <snip> That story is hiliarous!! I loved it. One other thing you might add to your bag of outstanding rental car tricks is to put it in reverse, slam the accelerator home till you get up to about 30 or 40 mph and then drop her in drive and slam it home again. I promise you you'll be smokin' some ***!!! This is really awesome if there are a few bikini clad babes around to applaud your driving skills. Another cool trick is to place some limburger cheese on the manifolds *AFTER* you return the car. The next person to drive it won't be able to go far with the windows rolled up. Leaving dead, but not yet decaying animals, in the trunk under the spare tire is also cool. Not many rental car boys bother to look under the spare tire when cleaning the car out.

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>>: I guess in order to be honest if I sell my bike I've got to advertize it >>: as having "no air". >>: Rich >> I thought you got a hell of a lot of air on a bike :-) >> Though having seen bikes with hifi setups in fairings, how far are we >>away from bikes with chilled air hoses to their riders space-suits ? >> Hmmm riding through town in a faithful replica of an Apollo suit would >>certainly cause a stir... >> Cheers >> David >Dontcha think the bio-heat of powering the airco pump would exceed the >cooling effect? >Don't believe the human body is a very efficient engine....;-))

He means motorcycle when he says bike! Duh! /*-----------------------------------*/ /* Cole's Law: Thinly Sliced Cabbage */ /*-----------------------------------*/

|> }Children will be children. This is why you have to be over 25 to rent a |> }car! One can rent under 25 at certain agencies. I'm 25, I've rented several cars over the years, but always treated them as if they were my own car-- with respect. (i.e. old concept of respecting other people's property..-- a concept that seems to have escaped the original poster..;-)) I've rented: Olds Ciera, Lincoln Town Car, Ford Escort, Ford Taurus, Mustang GT Convertible (fun), Mustang GT, Cavalier, GEO Metro (ugh..), Thunderbird. PhD Candidate, Computer Science and Engineering Software Systems Research Laboratory Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor '88 Mustang GT '88 Bronco II

> Hey james, who really cares who is in your Kill file!!!!! > do you think I or anyone else gives a rats ass about who is > in your kill file?? do you always post random messages > to yourself?? Your wit is so plastic and fake it makes > my computer look like leather. Get a life you moron!----muskie Well, you're really brave in ***space there, flameboy! Jerks like you really stink up these newsgroups. Drop dead cretin!

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> FInally a man with some sense to know that 1) I am telling the truth > and 2) there is NOTHING any of you can do about it!!! > -- > Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > E-Mail > Your comments always welcome

Nothing we can do?? How many S. L. Martine's live in California? (Answer: exactly one in Diamond Bar) How many national car rental companies are there? (Answer: not too many to write letters to and attach copies of your postings...) Do what you will, but if your caught and forced to pay for your crimes, don't expect us to cry for you. (After all, you are the one bragging about it on the net for whatever reason.)

One down, one to go. Mike

says... <common sense stuff deleted>

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> Right on!! and the RICH bastards who rent lincolns all the time will >have to pay the price NOT ME!! > I plan to Tear the hell out of a DODGE something this year in VEGAS!! >I am going for 8 days and hope they give me a 4 cys one ill Roast it in >an hour!! > Then turn the replacement is SMOKING and dripping all fluids... >-- >Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > E-Mail > Your comments always welcome

Have fun ***, who gives a shit anyway. You couldn't kill a Ford if you tried, if you say different your just lying... -- Jordan Blessing L1 Master Tech

> Wrong. It's been proven scientifically (a term you don't seem familiar > with) that CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Gee, some fool could say the > earth is flat too. Doesn't make it so. You might read up on the science > of the situation before showing off your right-wing extremist views. [snip] I've been loosely following the CFC debate since it began several years ago. From what I've seen, there is still some debate as to whether or not CFC's actually destroy the ozone layer. What has been proven is: Chlorine free radicals act as an ozone-destroying catalyst. Under certain conditions, R-12 Freon can release its chlorine atoms. If I remember correctly, chlorine free radicals are considered a major ozone depleter in the stratosphere, moving from one ozone molecule to the next and releasing the third Oxygen atom as a free radical. At the same time, I've also read about a number of volcanoes in the world that emit HCl among other gasses, particularly one near the antarctic circle. Some of these volcanoes easily send up plumes into the jet streams and some of their gasses penetrate the stratosphere. Supersonic aircraft flying at high altitudes are also suspected as possible ozone depleters. To-date, I haven't seen anything so far proving that breakdown of dichloro-difluoro-methane occurs in the upper atmosphere. This isn't to say that the research hasn't been done and that the proof exists. I just haven't seen it yet. At the same time, I currently don't have a problem with using the new refrigerant in my '95 Saturn, and my '66 Mustang doesn't have an A/C, so I guess I'm currently in good shape. I've seen both the media as well as research scientists balloon facts in order to get attention (Pons-Fleischmann is a good example), so I'm going to just wait and see for now. If R-12 is a major contributor to ozone depletion, then it would be a good idea to not produce it. If not, it takes less energy to produce/use R-12 than many other types of Freon, so if it's found to not be a factor, then the conservationist position would probably reverse its position and suggest it over other refrigerants. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- David W. Webb "He who dies with the most toys still dies." -unknown Any correlation between my opinions and those of Texas Instruments is purely coincidental. (I don't speak for TI) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > Hey james, who really cares who is in your Kill file!!!!! > > do you think I or anyone else gives a rats ass about who is > > in your kill file?? do you always post random messages > > to yourself?? Your wit is so plastic and fake it makes > > my computer look like leather. Get a life you moron!----muskie > Well, you're really brave in ***space there, flameboy! Jerks like > you really stink up these newsgroups. Drop dead cretin!

We now have two real jerks that post here. Bet you can't guess who they are LOL! -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

I dont think thats was words that lil bird dropped on you. You will also need a larger condenser or an electric fan on the current condenser if you want it to cool better other wise you might as wel have a bird on your dash flappin its wings.

WHO ***ING CARES***HEAD???????????????

> : Hmmm riding through town in a faithful replica of an Apollo suit would > : certainly cause a stir... > One way to find out. I'm about to head through downtown Kansas City > during rush hour in a suit of 15th century plate armor on a 750... Does that include the plate armor helmet, or are you wearing the standard brain-bucket? Where in KC does the Society hang out? Francis du Chalfont, Journeyman Chirurgeon Sylvan Glen, Principality of AEthelmarc, Kingdom of the East (but not for long!) --- Frank Ney WV/EMT-B VA/EMT-A N4ZHG LPWV NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO Sponsor, BATF Abuse page [link lost in import: /~croaker/batfabus.html] West ***ia Coordinator, Libertarian Second Amendment Caucus "[E]lections amount to no more than choosing between the scum that floats to the top of the barrel and the dregs that settle to the bottom." - L. Neil Smith

ditto.

> > <moronic blither deleted> > > It's funny the number of posts there are that serve no purpose, except to > >***people off enough to send you hate mail. And from the looks of > > where this is going...there will be alot of it! <SNIP> Looks like a troll to me, nearly as good as the Alec Guiness is dead, is not, is.... ad nauseum one. -- Neil O'Brien Thomson Software Products They're the wrong trousers Grommit, and they've gone wrong!

NOONE has yet to prove in any way that they have anything to do with the ozone hole. Sorry... Let me re-type. Destroying the ozone. But, unless you can stop the volcanoes of the earth, which pump a gazillion times more flourine into the air than all hte CFC production on earth, I suspect our Freon is blameless and the ban is useless. According to an article in the Wall Street Journal during the last 3 weeks, this is exactly what people are claiming. I'm in control, I'm The Wagonmaster! If you are into conservative politics autocross-SOLO II- or Excalibur BBS then I'm your man!

the price is well known among those of us who fix cars for a living. THe lethality is stated by various warnings given by equipment manufacturers. It can be absorbed through the skin, should it contact you in liquid form. And, if it happens, it can be lethal. Well, I've read the theories reported about it, and to be honest, they make not a*** of sense, to someone who DOES have common sense. I'm in control, I'm The Wagonmaster! If you are into conservative politics autocross-SOLO II- or Excalibur BBS then I'm your man!

Proven? By whom? Yeah, yeah, I know, the theory sounds good, and plenty of people like it. NOBODY has proven squat about the ozone hole. It does? Really? WHo's proved it? 134a can be absorbed through the skin, according to the warnings given to handlers. No, the federal government has to prove the theory about CFC's. Something they c an't do. Not at all. Yeah, weren't those cold fusion nuts up for a Nobel? I'm in control, I'm The Wagonmaster! If you are into conservative politics autocross-SOLO II- or Excalibur BBS then I'm your man!

For detailed refutation of the theory that volcanoes are causing ozone depletion, see our web site: <URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/science/> Read the myths vs. measurement pages, and then move on to the parts of the ozone FAQ that will give you all the citations you could want. Other pages off the main science page present an explanation of how CFCs destroy ozone, and this is also discussed in the ozone FAQ. In addition, there's a link from the science page to the 1994 Scientific Assessment of Ozone Depletion, a consensus document that summarizes the findings of nearly 300 of the world's top atmospheric researchers. The proof is there; read away! Jeffrey Levy USEPA

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> FInally a man with some sense to know that 1) I am telling the truth > and 2) there is NOTHING any of you can do about it!!! > -- > Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > E-Mail > Your comments always welcome

You see, that's what you don't understand... we don't HAVE to do anything about you, because sooner or later you'll***up on your own. I'm work on an ambulance, and I must pull one *** who though he was Speed Racer out of a car wreck every week. The problem is that you most likely don't drive like Emmerson Fittipaldi and I'm sure you can't spring for a car like the Mach 5. I just feel bad for the poor bastard that is going to be hurt when you do ***up. Then again, when he sues your ass and takes away your house as well as half your income for the next 40 years, the score will be settled. -- Shawn London

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>> I read a post a while back that talked about Lease cars and what to >>and not to look for!! >> Well I am the guy you FEAR! I am the one who goes on vacation and ><snip> >> I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a little >>pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 years now >>and never had a problem.....at least I never had one.....heheheh LOL >>ROTFL >That story is hiliarous!! I loved it. One other thing you might add >to your bag of outstanding rental car tricks is to put it in reverse, >slam the accelerator home till you get up to about 30 or 40 mph and >then drop her in drive and slam it home again. I promise you you'll >be smokin' some ***!!! This is really awesome if there are a few >bikini clad babes around to applaud your driving skills.

Driving Skills ??????? Cool Trick????? Also Cool????? Jeezzz there's some weirdo out there, makes me glad to be in Australia away from all the weirdos like this guy. Get a life matthew +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Matthew McDonald Voice/Data/Fax +61 02 730 457 Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Mobile +61 41 MATTHEW +61 416 288 439 When you're arguing with a fool, make sure he isn't doing the same thing. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Gee, last time I rented a car, I gave it a good wax job and changed the oil. Boy do I feel stupid! Regards, Scott Gaines ======================================================================= 93 Nissan Altima | 87 Nissan 300 ZX Turbo | NMA member since it was the CRTL 72 Ford Pinto 2000 cc | ======================================================================= He who controls the oil, controls the universe... The oil must flow. =======================================================================

: That story is hiliarous!! I loved it. One other thing you might add : to your bag of outstanding rental car tricks is to put it in reverse, : slam the accelerator home till you get up to about 30 or 40 mph and : then drop her in drive and slam it home again. There's a better way. Once you get rolling in reverse, pause in neutral with the throttle wide open, engine on the rev limiter. Then and only then is it appropriate to select first gear. Hope this helps. Henry

>: >: Actually, Jeffery... I hear this all the time...and please don't think I'm >: picking on you... But ALL of the refrigerants are ozone-safe. I find it >: amazing that you personally buy into the nonsense about them destroying the >: ozone hole. What's even more amazing is that, while it's taken 50 years of

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>: production, and massive releases to damage the ozone they say, supposedly >: it's already healing - and it's supposed to be due to the new laws. >Wrong. It's been proven scientifically (a term you don't seem familiar >with) that CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Gee, some fool could say the >earth is flat too. Doesn't make it so. You might read up on the science >of the situation before showing off your right-wing extremist views. >: >: I don't get it, freon-12 is almost harmless, i >Destroys ozone on the stratosphere, leading to increased uv radiation on >earth, leading to skin cancer, cataracts, and genetic mutations. Hardly >harmless. >: t's not poisonous unless burned, >: but 134a is lethal. >Not so. Both kill by suffocation. >: And, it's 4 times the cost. I figure that's where the >: REAL value of it is. You should be ashamed to have your agency used >: politically to profit the maker of 134a. >You should be embarrasseed by your rantings that are unsupported by any >science. >: I hope Arizona sticks with their >: determination to re-start the production of r-12. The EPA lawsuit will

have >: to PROVE the theory about ozone depletion, which it cannot do, and we'll be

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>: done with this nonsense. >: >Well, AZ would first have to sue to overturn the federal ban, meaning >they would have to prove CFCs are harmless. And they can't do that -- >every scientific study has shwon CFCs destroy the ozone. The developers >of this theory won the Nobel Prize, something not given for a theory not >accepted by science.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Arizona to sue the feds, the guy (J Fife Symington |||) that threatened to re-instate freon in AZ has been indited on charges of extortion & many other various related charges.

I understand from my mechanic that it's trade name is COLD-12. Yes, it is legal but you still need recovery equipment for it. My mechanic also stated that FREON-12 is still available but the cost is $2/oz. In the typical system needing 3 - 4 lbs of FREON, your recharge cost will be $120 for the material plus the "EPA fee". The total recharge cost was put at $400. He did state that the cost for COLD-12 was much more resonable and they expected to offer this alternative in 3 months. Bob

>Jeezzz there's some weirdo out there, makes me glad to be in Australia >away from all the weirdos like this guy. >Get a life Matthew - I believe this entire thread is about who has a life and who doesn't. I could be wrong but the people with lives have a sense of humor about this ridiculous post and the people without lives actually think this shit is true and are compelled to respond. Care to reconsider which category you fall into. Surely you don't really believe I leave dead animals in the backs of rental cars just because I posted such. Come on, dream up a rental car story and entertain us!!

>I like it! Well Jerry it looks like you and I are the only ones here with a sense of humor. Lighten up snapper-heads.

I did the opposite in the army, with a front engine track. Mighty fun to get the rear 1 meter off the pavement. They didn't take it for long though. Had to be towed home some time later....;-)) Yup, if you make too much forward speed, you tipp over....;-)) Aha, an Aussie. I don't want to insult a whole nation, but I heard a similar story from someone down under about a month ago. About renting an Explorer and taking it offroad. Besides the fact that these things are not made for that, the Aussie word 'offroad' is not the same as in the US. Said something about the truck not tracking right and demanding a replacement. Well, I also have to say he drives an TLC-80 with an OME heavy duty suspension package normally....;-)) Till someone runs some stat's on nationality....I warned him for that! Bye, W.J. Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand

About five years ago, I got a complimentary copy of a magazine for inventors and inventions. I think I still have it around somewhere. Anyway, there was an article in there about an extensive study to find a cheap substitute for Freon. This guy had instrumented a car beyond belief for his study. After he figured out the solution, he had his brother-in-law (or something), who owned a fleet of cars for his business use it. It works great and cools even better than Freon. The trouble is that the solution has some negative connotations. The fellow figured out that a 50/50 mix of propane and butane works best. Actually, and mix from 10/90 to 90/10 seemed to work just fine. It is compatible with all existing seals and hardware. People think that three or four pounds of highly flammable propane and butane in their car is a BAD thing. These same people don't think twice about the fact that they are carrying fifty to a hundred pounds of highly flammable, highly explosive gasoline in the same vehicle. And the gasoline is not even in a pressure vessel. I wonder if COLD-12 is just propane and butane. =========================================================================== "If God was MY co-pilot, I'd be doing a 120." - *** (the book) [link lost in import] Disclaimer: HP speaks for HP. David Braun speaks for David Braun. =========================================================================== --

: > : > Wrong. It's been proven scientifically (a term you don't seem familiar : > with) that CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Gee, some fool could say the : > earth is flat too. Doesn't make it so. You might read up on the science : > of the situation before showing off your right-wing extremist views. : : [snip] : : > Well, AZ would first have to sue to overturn the federal ban, meaning : > they would have to prove CFCs are harmless. And they can't do that -- : > every scientific study has shwon CFCs destroy the ozone. The developers : > of this theory won the Nobel Prize, something not given for a theory not : > accepted by science. : : I've been loosely following the CFC debate since it began several years : ago. From what I've seen, there is still some debate as to whether or not : CFC's actually destroy the ozone layer. What has been proven is: : : Chlorine free radicals act as an ozone-destroying catalyst. : : Under certain conditions, R-12 Freon can release its chlorine atoms. Those conditions being uv light, in great quantity in the stratosphere. : : If I remember correctly, chlorine free radicals are considered a major : ozone depleter in the stratosphere, moving from one ozone molecule to the : next and releasing the third Oxygen atom as a free radical. : : At the same time, I've also read about a number of volcanoes in the world : that emit HCl among other gasses, particularly one near the antarctic : circle. Some of these volcanoes easily send up plumes into the jet streams : and some of their gasses penetrate the stratosphere. No. Volcanoes emit Cl as HCl. HCl is water soluble and gets washed out of the atmosphere very quickly. CFCs are not water soluble. After Mt. Pinatubo erupted, for example, there was NO measurable Cl increase in the stratosphere. : : Supersonic aircraft flying at high altitudes are also suspected as possible : ozone depleters. Not a significant source. : : To-date, I haven't seen anything so far proving that breakdown of : dichloro-difluoro-methane occurs in the upper atmosphere. This isn't to : say that the research hasn't been done and that the proof exists. I just : haven't seen it yet. Then you need to read. Start with Science or Chemical & Engioneering News. Remember, Rowland won the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for proving just this. : : At the same time, I currently don't have a problem with using the new : refrigerant in my '95 Saturn, and my '66 Mustang doesn't have an A/C, : so I guess I'm currently in good shape. : : I've seen both the media as well as research scientists balloon facts : in order to get attention (Pons-Fleischmann is a good example), But cold fusion was never accepted by the scientific community. Ozone depletion, OTOH, is accepted and again, Rowland et al won a Nobel Prize for it.

: > : >>picking on you... But ALL of the refrigerants are ozone-safe : > : >Bullshit. : : NOONE has yet to prove in any way that they have anything to do with the ozone : hole. Sorry, but it has been proven to the satisfaction of the scientific community that CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Proven so well that Rowland and coworkers received the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for it. : > : : Sorry... Let me re-type. Destroying the ozone. : But, unless you can stop the volcanoes of the earth, which pump a gazillion : times more flourine into the air than all hte CFC production on earth, I : suspect our Freon is blameless and the ban is useless. Sorry, it has been shown conclusively that volcanoes do not put Cl into the stratosphere. They emit HCl, which is water soluble and gets washed out quickly. CFCs are not water soluble. Fluorine has nothing to do with the ozone layer; it's Cl that destroys it. But we have seen F in the stratosphere in amounts that correlate extremely well with the Cl amounts there; another way we know the two are coming from the same source, CFCs. We also have measured CFCs in the stratosphere, so we knoe they get there. To summarize: 1. We know CFCs make it into the stratosphere -- we've measured them there. 2. We know uv light breaks a Cl free radical off a CFC molecule -- simple chemistry. 3. We know a Cl free radical breaks down an ozone molecule -- again, simply chemisty. 4. We know CFCs are the primary source of Cl in the stratosphere because no other Cl source makes it up there AND the F concentration correlates with the Cl concentration there. 5. We know the CFC concentration in the stratosphere has been increasing for decades, correlating with the usage of CFCs. 6. We know the ozone layer has been degrading, correlating with the amount of CFCs making it up to the stratosphere. All the world's industrialized nations wouldn't have agreed to the ban on CFCs if the scientific evidence wasn't overwhelming.

: >> : >Wrong. It's been proven scientifically (a term you don't seem familiar : >with) that CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Gee, some fool could say the : >earth is flat too. Doesn't make it so. You might read up on the science : >of the situation before showing off your right-wing extremist views. : > : : Proven? By whom? Yeah, yeah, I know, the theory sounds good, and plenty of : people like it. NOBODY has proven squat about the ozone hole. Yes they have. Maybe if you'd listen to more than Rush Limbaugh and read more than The American Spectator, you'd know it. Try reading a SCIENTIFIC magazine. That's where you find science. : : No, the federal government has to prove the theory about CFC's. Something : they c an't do. : : >every scientific study has shwon CFCs destroy the ozone. The developers : : Not at all. Yes. Rowland and coworkers received the Nobel Prize. They have proven it. : : >of this theory won the Nobel Prize, something not given for a theory not : >accepted by science. : : Yeah, weren't those cold fusion nuts up for a Nobel? No. They were laughed at by other scientists. You really need to read some scientific journals!:

Check today's New York Times- Science Times section, Tues 6/18. It's not so universally accepted as you think.

S> Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and S> leave it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able S> beaches like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about S> 100 Mph and do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on S> high and If I am waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral S> till the rev-limiter kicks er off and on and hold it there and S> slam it into gear. This is so juvenile. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine when I was in 2nd grade ("It doesn't matter if I break your bike, because it's not mine--and I won't be upset"). I suppose you are also the kind of person who trashes hotel rooms? S> The Lincoln I had started smoking after 2 days of this so I took S> it to a car wash cleaned it in and out , called the 1-800 # and S> told em to come get the damn thing and they do every time! Funny thing, that. You'd think they would recognize you by now. S> I feel its my right to do this. Cause if guys like me dont they S> will SHAFT the rest of you with the cars at 30,000 miles and I S> guarantee they wont keep the ones I drive that long...... This just simply wrong. If you trash their cars, that merely means that the rental companies will have to accommodate for the cost of the lost car by charging more to rent them out to people like us. Don't think for a second that you are doing ANYBODY a "favor" by trashing rental cars. Quite the opposite, in fact. Any 5th-grader can tell you, that as you force the expenses of the rental company to go up, they will merely adapt for it by charging their other customers more. WE are the people that pay for your irresponsibility, NOT the rental companies. As for the 30,000 miles: This is an even sillier argument. Would you rather be driving in a car that has been driven nicely for 30,000 miles, or a car that has been driven by someone like you for 10,000? Easy question. S> I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a S> little pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 S> years now and never had a problem.....at least I never had S> one.....heheheh LOL ROTFL -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail <sigh> S> Your comments always welcome It's people like you who give us Americans a bad name. Think how much nicer life would be if people like you could learn to respect other people's property, instead of trying to find any chance possible to destroy it. This is depressing. --Georgi

1. don't use the brakes. on some models you can just stick it into reverse and feed the power in. 2. 'PARK' is cool too on some models at high speeds (goes away quick though). 3. recently: got in a car with anti-lock brakes. did panic stops all the way to boston. (they suck in light snow... won't scratch down to pavement) 4. front wheel drive: put on the emergency brake and stomp on the gas. see whether the front or rear axle wins.

: : >But cold fusion was never accepted by the scientific community. Ozone : >depletion, OTOH, is accepted and again, Rowland et al won a Nobel Prize : >for it. : : Check today's New York Times- Science Times section, Tues 6/18. : : It's not so universally accepted as you think. : I never said "universally." There're always a few crackpot scientists -- see cold fusion and polywater. I could easily find a scientist or two who don't accept quantum theory or relativity, or who don't believe the speed of light is a constant, or who believe in homeopathic medicine. But the vast majority of the scientific community has accepted the CFC-ozone link, because there's a ton of evidence to support it and none to refute it.

>> Come on, dream up a rental car story and entertain us!! Did you know that when all four wheels of an Olds Delta 88 leave the ground, the car is VERY unstable? :) Also, a Pontiac Bonnie-ville is VERY at home on the Salt Flats... ;-))))

(Henry H Hans***) writes: >: That story is hiliarous!! I loved it. One other thing you might add >: to your bag of outstanding rental car tricks is to put it in reverse, >: slam the accelerator home till you get up to about 30 or 40 mph and >: then drop her in drive and slam it home again. > There's a better way. Once you get rolling in reverse, pause in neutral >with the throttle wide open, engine on the rev limiter. Then and only >then is it appropriate to select first gear. Hope this helps. > Henry You need to TAX that battery and alternator to turn everything on HIGH! I mean every thing rear window defogger A/C Wipers radiothen doo all of the above -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

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> S> Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and > S> leave it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able > S> beaches like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about > S> 100 Mph and do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on > S> high and If I am waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral > S> till the rev-limiter kicks er off and on and hold it there and > S> slam it into gear. >This is so juvenile. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a >friend of mine when I was in 2nd grade ("It doesn't matter if I break >your bike, because it's not mine--and I won't be upset"). >I suppose you are also the kind of person who trashes hotel rooms? > S> The Lincoln I had started smoking after 2 days of this so I took > S> it to a car wash cleaned it in and out , called the 1-800 # and > S> told em to come get the damn thing and they do every time! >Funny thing, that. You'd think they would recognize you by now. > S> I feel its my right to do this. Cause if guys like me dont they > S> will SHAFT the rest of you with the cars at 30,000 miles and I > S> guarantee they wont keep the ones I drive that long...... >This just simply wrong. If you trash their cars, that merely means >that the rental companies will have to accommodate for the cost of the >lost car by charging more to rent them out to people like us. Don't >think for a second that you are doing ANYBODY a "favor" by trashing >rental cars. Quite the opposite, in fact. Any 5th-grader can tell >you, that as you force the expenses of the rental company to go up, >they will merely adapt for it by charging their other customers more. >WE are the people that pay for your irresponsibility, NOT the rental >companies. >As for the 30,000 miles: This is an even sillier argument. Would you >rather be driving in a car that has been driven nicely for 30,000 >miles, or a car that has been driven by someone like you for 10,000? >Easy question. > S> I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a > S> little pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 > S> years now and never had a problem.....at least I never had > S> one.....heheheh LOL ROTFL -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail ><sigh> > S> Your comments always welcome >It's people like you who give us Americans a bad name. >Think how much nicer life would be if people like you could learn to >respect other people's property, instead of trying to find any chance >possible to destroy it. >This is depressing. >--Georgi

yea ME TO I just cant wait till they start leasing AIRPLANES to anyone Or when they start leasing anything that an anarchist can destroy and not get caughgt!!! -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

>> Gee, last time I rented a car, I gave it a good wax job and changed >> the oil. Boy do I feel stupid! >> Regards, >> Scott Gaines ======================================================================= ======================================================================= ======================================================================= ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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>| George H. McDowell | | | >| http://www2.southwind.net/~gmcdowel Wichita, KS 67277-7730 |

---------------------------------------------------------------------- I changed the oil in one After I slammed it into a parking stone Poked a hole in the pan!!! But I did first put a whole tube of silicone over the hole and let it dry all night then refilled with oil and turned it in never heard about it either -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

>>> Come on, dream up a rental car story and entertain us!! >Did you know that when all four wheels of an Olds Delta 88 leave the >ground, the car is VERY unstable? :) Also, a Pontiac Bonnie-ville is >VERY at home on the Salt Flats... ;-)))) How about Driving a DODGE Aries in chicago on the Loop with the AIR on high and the temp guage on high and it in 1st gear at 70 mph for about 25-30 miles pulling into a place to park shutting it off and just as you do the radiator cap BLOWS OFF so hard it dents the hood from the underside.... Then its time to break the ignition lock and take a cab back to your room and say it was stolen -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

> > >> Come on, dream up a rental car story and entertain us!! > > Did you know that when all four wheels of an Olds Delta 88 leave the > > ground, the car is VERY unstable? :) Also, a Pontiac Bonnie-ville is > > VERY at home on the Salt Flats... ;-)))) Nope, I did not write "Come on, dream up a rental car story and entertain us!!", I think your editing got mixed up a little. No problem but please try to be more careful when quoting others... -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

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> >: > >: At the same time, I currently don't have a problem with using the new > >: refrigerant in my '95 Saturn, and my '66 Mustang doesn't have an A/C, > >: so I guess I'm currently in good shape. > >: > >: I've seen both the media as well as research scientists balloon facts > >: in order to get attention (Pons-Fleischmann is a good example), > >But cold fusion was never accepted by the scientific community. Ozone > >depletion, OTOH, is accepted and again, Rowland et al won a Nobel Prize > >for it.

Nope, ozone depletion theory is NOT universally accepted as anything more than a theory. Many reputable members of the scientific community dismiss it as pure unsubstantiated conjecture. In fact, today's NY Times (June 18 edition) has an article on this subject you should read. -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

writes: >> FInally a man with some sense to know that 1) I am telling the truth

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>> and 2) there is NOTHING any of you can do about it!!! >> -- >> Stop =-POLICE-= ***. >> E-Mail >> Your comments always welcome >Nothing we can do?? How many S. L. Martine's live in California? >(Answer: exactly one in Diamond Bar) >How many national car rental companies are there? (Answer: not >too many to write letters to and attach copies of your postings...) >Do what you will, but if your caught and forced to pay for your >crimes, don't expect us to cry for you. (After all, you are the >one bragging about it on the net for whatever reason.)

Ok go ahead and waste your time !!! all those companies care aboput is BOTTOM LINE!! The cars I did this to are loooong Gone!! and they arent going to notify the owner and risk being partially liable... -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

writes:

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>says... ><common sense stuff deleted> >> Right on!! and the RICH bastards who rent lincolns all the time will >>have to pay the price NOT ME!! >> I plan to Tear the hell out of a DODGE something this year in

VEGAS!! >>I am going for 8 days and hope they give me a 4 cys one ill Roast it in

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>>an hour!! >> Then turn the replacement is SMOKING and dripping all fluids... >>-- >>Stop =-POLICE-= ***. >> E-Mail >> Your comments always welcome >Have fun ***, who gives a shit anyway. You couldn't kill a Ford if

you >tried, if you say different your just lying... >-- >Jordan Blessing L1 Master Tech Think again big foot lover!! When I "DO" the Escorts they LOVE the scorching heat so much they BLOW THEIR HEAD GASKETS in suicide!! I couldnt kill a ford!! I can KILL ANY car (Rental) any make , model,year whatever without ever hitting a thing just by simply DRIVING it and Like earl Schieb says "Ill tear up any car in under 1 tank of gas" Or something like that -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

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>> > Hey james, who really cares who is in your Kill file!!!!! >> > do you think I or anyone else gives a rats ass about who is >> > in your kill file?? do you always post random messages >> > to yourself?? Your wit is so plastic and fake it makes >> > my computer look like leather. Get a life you moron!----muskie >> Well, you're really brave in ***space there, flameboy! Jerks like >> you really stink up these newsgroups. Drop dead cretin! >We now have two real jerks that post here. Bet you can't guess who

they >are LOL! >-- >Jerry Bransford >PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. >The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything! No lets say you tell us TOUGH GUY!! -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

McDonald) writes:

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>>> I read a post a while back that talked about Lease cars and what to >>>and not to look for!! >>> Well I am the guy you FEAR! I am the one who goes on vacation and >><snip> >>> I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a little >>>pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 years

now

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>>>and never had a problem.....at least I never had one.....heheheh LOL >>>ROTFL >>That story is hiliarous!! I loved it. One other thing you might add >>to your bag of outstanding rental car tricks is to put it in reverse, >>slam the accelerator home till you get up to about 30 or 40 mph and >>then drop her in drive and slam it home again. I promise you you'll >>be smokin' some ***!!! This is really awesome if there are a few >>bikini clad babes around to applaud your driving skills. >Driving Skills ??????? >>Another cool trick is to place some limburger cheese on the manifolds >>*AFTER* you return the car. The next person to drive it won't be

able

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>>to go far with the windows rolled up. >Cool Trick????? >>Leaving dead, but not yet decaying animals, in the trunk under the >>spare tire is also cool. Not many rental car boys bother to look >>under the spare tire when cleaning the car out. >Also Cool????? >Jeezzz there's some weirdo out there, makes me glad to be in Australia >away from all the weirdos like this guy. >Get a life >matthew >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Matthew McDonald Voice/Data/Fax +61 02 730 457 >Hobart, Tasmania, Australia Mobile +61 41 MATTHEW

+61 416 288 439 >When you're arguing with a fool, make sure he isn't doing the same thing. >+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I am glad your in australia to!! One less Aussie here!! Now get BACK down under!! and go play with your boomerang and Mad Max -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

I am glad that someone agrees with me!!! Cars are not people and what I do with them during my rental period is my buisness. You are just like the government wanting to totally control everyones life... well you cant mine!! -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

Curbs eh? I love to hit em straight on! and if it pops the Hubcap off I go get that they will charge you for that. Another thing to do is take the rental car to a local small airstrip and buy some of the class c aviation fuel its about 130 octane and put that in the tank and hit the road!! Sometimes on the fords they will get so hot that the underhood plastic will "Heat Soak" and actually crumble if you touch it ! I did this to the lincoln # 2 in texas last year I kept getting it hot and the fan shroud started to crumble away. and the plastic snake wireharness covers crumbled away..... Its amazing when you take cars back to budget or avis all the 18 yr old punk kid with the scanner looks for is the mileage and gas guage scans it in you sign your credit reciept and wait for the bus to the terminal and you see them taking the car straight to vaccum, wash and then park it ...waiting for the next renter , they dont check shit!! -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

Dont forget Me I have a good sense of humor! Especially when I VOMIT in the glove box of a lincoln and lock it when I turn it in!! writes: >>I like it! >Well Jerry it looks like you and I are the only ones here with >a sense of humor. >Lighten up snapper-heads. -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

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> >Jeezzz there's some weirdo out there, makes me glad to be in Australia > >away from all the weirdos like this guy. > >Get a life > Matthew - I believe this entire thread is about who has a life > and who doesn't. I could be wrong but the people with lives have > a sense of humor about this ridiculous post and the people without > lives actually think this shit is true and are compelled to respond. > Care to reconsider which category you fall into. Surely you don't > really believe I leave dead animals in the backs of rental cars > just because I posted such. > Come on, dream up a rental car story and entertain us!!

Some people have the ability to write humorous and entertaining stories and some don't. It's sad when someone thinks they're telling a funny story and then has to explain to everyone afterwards that it was a funny story. Get many blank looks, do you? -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

One of the BEST is to plug up the AC condensate drain hole and PEE in the air intake !! writes:

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>> I read a post a while back that talked about Lease cars and what to >>and not to look for!! >> Well I am the guy you FEAR! I am the one who goes on vacation and ><snip> >> I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a little >>pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 years now >>and never had a problem.....at least I never had one.....heheheh LOL >>ROTFL >That story is hiliarous!! I loved it. One other thing you might add >to your bag of outstanding rental car tricks is to put it in reverse, >slam the accelerator home till you get up to about 30 or 40 mph and >then drop her in drive and slam it home again. I promise you you'll >be smokin' some ***!!! This is really awesome if there are a few >bikini clad babes around to applaud your driving skills. >Another cool trick is to place some limburger cheese on the manifolds >*AFTER* you return the car. The next person to drive it won't be able >to go far with the windows rolled up. >Leaving dead, but not yet decaying animals, in the trunk under the >spare tire is also cool. Not many rental car boys bother to look >under the spare tire when cleaning the car out.

-- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

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> Gee, last time I rented a car, I gave it a good wax job and changed > the oil. Boy do I feel stupid! > Regards, > Scott Gaines > ======================================================================= > 93 Nissan Altima | > 87 Nissan 300 ZX Turbo | NMA member since it was the CRTL > 72 Ford Pinto 2000 cc | > ======================================================================= > He who controls the oil, controls the universe... The oil must flow. > =======================================================================

Same here, drove one for 3 weeks, put 2000 mi on it and waxed it a couple of times. Didn't want to be seen in a dirty car I guess. Didn't feel the need for the oil change bit. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- | George H. McDowell | | http://www2.southwind.net/~gmcdowel Wichita, KS 67277-7730 | ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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>: That story is hiliarous!! I loved it. One other thing you might add >: to your bag of outstanding rental car tricks is to put it in reverse, >: slam the accelerator home till you get up to about 30 or 40 mph and >: then drop her in drive and slam it home again. > There's a better way. Once you get rolling in reverse, pause in neutral >with the throttle wide open, engine on the rev limiter. Then and only >then is it appropriate to select first gear. Hope this helps.

Otherwise known as a "neutral-drop." Jeez...these kids nowadays...think they invented everything, sheesh! -- William "Wild Bill" Corona RotRotKotL DoD# 1665 Axe ***er #1 "I'd rather be hunted as a wolf than slaughtered like a sheep..." "Life is what happens while your making other plans..."

Hello, when you post a reply to this thread, please take out the newsgroup rec.autos.simulators from the Newsgroups: field, because this thread is not of interest to readers of this group. It is for discussion of racing simulators. Sorry to all readers of rasf1, I couldn't take it out myself, because the AOL offline newsreader is so great... Thank you! Tjark

> Jeezzz there's some weirdo out there, makes me glad to be in Australia > away from all the weirdos like this guy. > -- > Jerry Bransford > PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. > The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything! Dammit Jerry, there you go again with that down-under knuckle-dragger patriotism.. what'd I tell you about that! -- Tom Johnston

> this stupid ***ing idiot is just looking for attention, probably > because he is a complete social misfit that can't get a date. don't > dignify his comments with responses. he is a moron. So are you for responding ! -- ******************************************* * Gord Hunt - 1984 Kawasaki KLR600 * * - 1986 Mustang LX * * * * [link lost in import] * *******************************************

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>> Children will be children. This is why you have to be over 25 to rent a >> car! >> -- >> Charles Prichard, Maitland FL >Are you kidding me? That guy's probably 40. I know 15 year-olds with >learner's permits who have more sense and a hell of a lot more idea about >how to treat a car than that guy. Age has nothing to do with it... except >that the rental car agents trust the guy implicitly since he's old, >instead of calling the cops on him like they aught to.

You are probably right. Seems like I have seen someone like this at a stop light on Capitol Blvd, Raleigh, NC. Some idiot is setting at the light with a Lincold Continental. I thought the brakes had over heated in the rear at first. Maybe they had, but they had because the guy was power braking the thing at wideopen. The rear wheels were spinning so fast, they weren't even squalling. Left dual marks all the way across the intersection. Guy looked to be in his mid thirties to 40's. You could see him laughing and grinning like a idiot to his riding partner. He sat there for at least 45 to 50 seconds like that. Had to be pretty tough on the whole driveline. I respect teh 4.6L after that, anything that can take that kind of abuse that long is pretty tough. Later, TurboDave David L. Pearce 1984 Laser XE Turbo

If a person gets certified to play with freon, can one drain their system by pulling a compressor out of a freezer or something similar and soldering an intake connection to the intake and a tank to the output? What do you do with the freon once its bottled? Also, what about an alternative that eliminates the use of large amounts of coolant (at least special coolants)? Build two small gas to water heat exchangers. One to take the heat off, that would be sent to the grill, and another that is routed to a large air to water exchanger for air cond.? Both gas to water heat exchangers could be placed under the hood, where if aleak occured, it would just vent to the wind, instead of the interior of the car. The gas to water exchanger that extracts heat from the cooling gas could be done away with since it is outside of the occupant's interior space. I think its technical name is a chiller. Later, TurboDave David L. Pearce 1984 Laser XE Turbo

<SNIP> Maybe we could abandon this topic or put it on an every other week status?

<SNIP> But they are arresting the smugglers of R-12. Just ask the lady in Florida who is now in jail.

: > : > >: : > >: At the same time, I currently don't have a problem with using the new : > >: refrigerant in my '95 Saturn, and my '66 Mustang doesn't have an A/C, : > >: so I guess I'm currently in good shape. : > >: : > >: I've seen both the media as well as research scientists balloon facts : > >: in order to get attention (Pons-Fleischmann is a good example), : > : > >But cold fusion was never accepted by the scientific community. Ozone : > >depletion, OTOH, is accepted and again, Rowland et al won a Nobel Prize : > >for it. : : Nope, ozone depletion theory is NOT universally accepted as anything : more than a theory. It IS accepted by the vast majority of the scientific community. You should learn what "theory" means in science -- it is the currently accepted explanation of something. it does NOT mean a guess. And to forestall the inevitable, a theory cannot become a law. A law summarizes data; it doesn't explain. We have the theory of gravity, theory of evolution, quantum theory, etc. -- all scientifically accepted theories. The CFC-ozone theory is just as accepted. : Many reputable members of the scientific community : dismiss it as pure unsubstantiated conjecture. No they don't. If they did, the originators wouldn't have won a Nobel Prize, their articles wouldn't be accepted in all reputable journals, the industrialized world wouldn't have agreed to the Montreal Protocol. The chemistry behind it is simple and the evidence is overwhelming. : In fact, today's NY : Times (June 18 edition) has an article on this subject you should read. There are dozens of articles in scientific journals you should read. The NY Times is not a peer-reviewed scientific journal.

<snip> Enough already

: > There's a better way. Once you get rolling in reverse, pause in neutral : >with the throttle wide open, engine on the rev limiter. Then and only : >then is it appropriate to select first gear. Hope this helps. : Otherwise known as a "neutral-drop." : Jeez...these kids nowadays...think they invented everything, sheesh! : William "Wild Bill" Corona RotRotKotL DoD# 1665 Axe ***er #1 One word of caution. If you happen to rent a front wheel drive vehicle, and you're cruising down the highway about 65-70, pause in neutral, throttle wide open to get the r's up, and then select reverse, you will need to get a replacement rental car. Kind of inconvenient while on vacation but it's valuable fatigue limit testing. Henry

On page 128 of the July issue of Car Craft magazine there is an article that says" Pennzoil FR-12 Refrigerant" Pennzoil Products has become the distributor for FRIGC, FR-12 refrigerant. Its properties are virtually identical to R-12, also known as Freon, the most widely used automotive A/C system refrigerant. However, R-12 is now banned by the EPA.* RE-12 solves the problem of having to undergo costly changes with an R-12 A/C system. It's ready to use with only minimal system adaptation and has been accepted by the EPA. New cars now use R-134a and older R-12 systems can't use R-134a without significant alterations. The FR-12 refrigerant is compatible with R-12 systems. Contact your local auto parts dealer. *Production of R-12 is banned not the use. The above not including the asterisk is a word for word quote from Pennzoil and Car Craft mag. So this stuff is apparently real and it is not 134a. It looks like anyone hoarding R-12 is going to be out of alot of money in the near future. steve -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxSteve Sullivan x Work sucks, I'd rather be racing..... ATT Bell Labs x # 77

I agree with the guy that said bullshit. This is what happens to the ozone layer. Ultraviolet light attacks the cfc molecule, and in the process breaks off the chlorine atom, which in turn attacks ozone molecules, creating oxygen gas and chlorine monoxide. Then the chlorine atom throws off the oxygen atom and repeats the process, up to 100,000 times. This means that one cfc molecule can destroy up to 100,000 ozone molecules. The 1974 Molina-Rowland theory explains this in detail. Every a/c tech knows this. The 1987 Montreal Protocol between the U.S. and 22 other countries put into effect a program to control then eliminate cfc's altogether. The really scarey part is that in 1992 it is estimated that 680,000 tons of cfc's were dumped into the atmosphere. And it is thought that most of what has been released in the last 30 years might not have even gotten to the stratosphere yet. So we are not over the hump yet. This info is directly from the Refrigerant Transition and Recovery Certification Program for HVACR Technicians, put out by ACCA (air conditioning contractors of America) and Ferris State University. steve l -- xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxSteve Sullivan x Work sucks, I'd rather be racing..... ATT Bell Labs x # 77

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> S> Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and > S> leave it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able > S> beaches like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about > S> 100 Mph and do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on > S> high and If I am waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral > S> till the rev-limiter kicks er off and on and hold it there and > S> slam it into gear. >This is so juvenile. It reminds me of a conversation I had with a >friend of mine when I was in 2nd grade ("It doesn't matter if I break >your bike, because it's not mine--and I won't be upset"). >I suppose you are also the kind of person who trashes hotel rooms? > S> The Lincoln I had started smoking after 2 days of this so I took > S> it to a car wash cleaned it in and out , called the 1-800 # and > S> told em to come get the damn thing and they do every time! >Funny thing, that. You'd think they would recognize you by now. > S> I feel its my right to do this. Cause if guys like me dont they > S> will SHAFT the rest of you with the cars at 30,000 miles and I > S> guarantee they wont keep the ones I drive that long...... >This just simply wrong. If you trash their cars, that merely means >that the rental companies will have to accommodate for the cost of the >lost car by charging more to rent them out to people like us. Don't >think for a second that you are doing ANYBODY a "favor" by trashing >rental cars. Quite the opposite, in fact. Any 5th-grader can tell >you, that as you force the expenses of the rental company to go up, >they will merely adapt for it by charging their other customers more. >WE are the people that pay for your irresponsibility, NOT the rental >companies. >As for the 30,000 miles: This is an even sillier argument. Would you >rather be driving in a car that has been driven nicely for 30,000 >miles, or a car that has been driven by someone like you for 10,000? >Easy question. > S> I know a lot of you wont agree with me and might even get a > S> little pissed. But it needs to be done, I have been doing it for 9 > S> years now and never had a problem.....at least I never had > S> one.....heheheh LOL ROTFL -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail ><sigh> > S> Your comments always welcome >It's people like you who give us Americans a bad name. >Think how much nicer life would be if people like you could learn to >respect other people's property, instead of trying to find any chance >possible to destroy it. >This is depressing. >--Georgi

GOOD saying, Georgi.

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> S> Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and > S> leave it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able > S> beaches like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about > S> 100 Mph and do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on > S> high and If I am waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral > S> till the rev-limiter kicks er off and on and hold it there and > S> slam it into gear. >This is depressing.

Depending on your outlook. I found it very entertaining and don't for a minute believe any of it. Besides even if it was true what percentage of the US population that rents cars do you honestly think participates in this kind of behavior? Did it influence you to act this way? Do you think there are a bunch of people sitting on the fence between "should I" or "shouldn't I" that it swayed? NOT!!

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>: That story is hiliarous!! I loved it. One other thing you might add >: to your bag of outstanding rental car tricks is to put it in reverse, >: slam the accelerator home till you get up to about 30 or 40 mph and >: then drop her in drive and slam it home again. > There's a better way. Once you get rolling in reverse, pause in neutral >with the throttle wide open, engine on the rev limiter. Then and only >then is it appropriate to select first gear. Hope this helps. > Henry

Thanks for the rental car tip Henry, I think it will help. Nice to see some fun guys around here.

As the Enviro-Nazis in this country***with the best refridgerant known to man, by curtailing the production (NOV 1995), three new FREON manufacturing plants are being built in India. The consumer in the US can't service the air conditioners in their older cars ( which will go away by natural attrition ), unless you are willing to pay some repair shop that has invested in expensive recovery/recycling equipment. My question is, why do we as citizens and consumers have to pay for this cost when the rest of the world that signed this environmental agreement is violating it in the very face of our gutless leadership (spell that Clinton, as in Slick Willie). I want my R-12 back! And I want it now! Old FORD Freak from California

Not so. That vast majority only believe it harms the ozone so they will get more cash from the US government to stury how to "fix" the problem. The money these guys get is very substantial andif I was being handed over that kind of cash i would tell you that the moon was made of green cheese. Gene

> My mechanic also stated that FREON-12 is still available but the > cost is $2/oz. In the typical system needing 3 - 4 lbs of FREON, > your recharge cost will be $120 for the material plus the "EPA fee". > The total recharge cost was put at $400. I think the quoted cost includes the EPA tax. I bought a couple of cans on June 1 (yeah, I found out the hard way that if I bought a day earlier I would have saved $3/can). Anyway, I paid $14.99 for a 12 oz. can. That puts it ~ $60 for materials for a recharge. Jay

I am dating myself on that one ! Its the 100 LL , it used to be 130 in 1988 when I used to get it. but its blue and makes em run hot and knocks fire out of the pistons >> Another thing to do is take the rental car to a local small airstrip >> and buy some of the class c aviation fuel its about 130 octane and put >> that in the tank and hit the road!! >At least you should know what to ask for at the airstrip. There's no such >thing as "Class C" aviation fuel. What you want is 100 octane low lead >(100LL). That and Jet A for the turbines are about the only types of fuel >you'll find at an airstrip these days. Your rental car won't run on >Jet-A, it's basically kerosene. The 100LL will probably make your car >accelerate a little quicker, but I'm afraid it won't make it run much >faster. And it costs $2 to $3 per gallon. There used to be an aviation >fuel that was rated at 80 octane. It would make a car engine knock like >you wouldn't believe. A few days of that, and the valves and pistons >would be history. >C. Marin Faure > author, Flying a Floatplane -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

>Please...stop Ok Ill stop !! But its not my fault to all of those who reply!!! -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

> > Another thing to do is take the rental car to a local small airstrip > > and buy some of the class c aviation fuel its about 130 octane and put > > that in the tank and hit the road!!Not to mention that they will not sell aviation fuel for use in a car snce highway taxes are not included in it.....

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> Dont forget Me I have a good sense of humor! Especially when I VOMIT >in the glove box of a lincoln and lock it when I turn it in!! >writes: >>>I like it! >>Well Jerry it looks like you and I are the only ones here with >>a sense of humor. >>Lighten up snapper-heads.

Don't you mean *without* a sense of humor? When I read your posts, I can just hear the zits popping!!! Now THAT'S funny!! Hey, everyone, notice how this started when school let out, and I'll bet it ends when school lets back in. Can you say, " Mommy, can I have an Internet account for the summer?" See ya on the other side of August, Jack

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> Then I guess its good ***in thing I dont buy new cars isnt it!! >writes: >>: No you dont pay for my abuse you IDIOT! >>: It comes out of the plutocrats pockets!! how high will rental car >>: prices go>?? Not far people wont rent em!! >>You ***, rental car companies buy new cars for one reason. They're >>under the manufacturer's warranty. Which means that the manufacturer >>ends up paying for it, not the rental company, and that cost is passed >>down to the consumer. >>Ryan >-- >Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > E-Mail > Your comments always welcome

Hey Klokan, soon your net will overflow with fish. It's already too heavy to heave into the boat.

> Another thing to do is take the rental car to a local small airstrip > and buy some of the class c aviation fuel its about 130 octane and put > that in the tank and hit the road!! At least you should know what to ask for at the airstrip. There's no such thing as "Class C" aviation fuel. What you want is 100 octane low lead (100LL). That and Jet A for the turbines are about the only types of fuel you'll find at an airstrip these days. Your rental car won't run on Jet-A, it's basically kerosene. The 100LL will probably make your car accelerate a little quicker, but I'm afraid it won't make it run much faster. And it costs $2 to $3 per gallon. There used to be an aviation fuel that was rated at 80 octane. It would make a car engine knock like you wouldn't believe. A few days of that, and the valves and pistons would be history. C. Marin Faure author, Flying a Floatplane

Please...stop

Sorry, but many just don't give a damn. There are many who purchased large quantities of R-12 when it was cheap and plentiful (there was plenty of warning about the upcoming ban), and use it as they see fit with no regard for either federal regulations or atmospheric chemistry. I personally know folks who still vent R-12 to atmosphere when servicing A/C, and/or top up leaky systems and will continue to do so out of a large, inexpensively puchased private stock. (And no, I'm not going to turn anyone in, regardless of the "reward.") Better stock up on sun-block... -- Bob Alpert

>I think you are all taking this 13 year old JOKER a little too serious. I guess it just >gives you all something to do. >my 2 cents >JP I agree with you JP. When I first read is ridiculous and moronic post I was very pleased. I really thought here was someone that I could recruit to drive minibus taxis in South Africa, but then I realised the little dungbeatlelicker can be no older than 13. I wonder who typed his post as I don't believe he has got the brains to type anything himself. Cheers

Thats it I've had enough. This thread is infantile enough already, without the additional stupidity being added to it. This group is for computer based racing simulations, so get this stuff out of this group now please. Chris Fisher PS I feel a lot better now. PPS 1 more thing England 4 Holland 1, I must be dreaming!

[global snip] However, let's not discount the influence of the incredibly powerful environmental lobby. Scientific evidence in and of itself does not make legislation. Otherwise, we wouldn't have tobacco. But that's another issue. Matt

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>> Sorry, but it has been proven to the satisfaction of the scientific >> community that CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Proven so well that Rowland >Sorry, but many just don't give a damn. There are many who purchased >large quantities of R-12 when it was cheap and plentiful (there was plenty >of warning about the upcoming ban), and use it as they see fit with no >regard for either federal regulations or atmospheric chemistry. I >personally know folks who still vent R-12 to atmosphere when servicing >A/C, and/or top up leaky systems and will continue to do so out of a >large, inexpensively puchased private stock. (And no, I'm not going to >turn anyone in, regardless of the "reward.")

Not to mention those who have it shipped in by the container load from countries where it is still legal. Think all the smugglers are into ***? think again-

: Please...stop Ahhh..like a voice from above. Excellent advice, please heed. :-) -- Ryan Thomas Abrahamson North Dakota State University mmmmmm.....bacon -Homer Simpson '66 Mustang cpe:'89 Mustang 5.0:'79 Impala (what can I say?) FORD! Where quality is job number....well it's up there anyway.

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> Thats it I've had enough. This thread is infantile enough > already, without the additional stupidity being added to it. > This group is for computer based racing simulations, so get > this stuff out of this group now please. > Chris Fisher > PS I feel a lot better now. > PPS 1 more thing England 4 Holland 1, I must be dreaming!

Oops sorry, just noticed the multiple news groups at the top. Appologies to all those not in rec.autos.simulators please feel free to carry on discussing this topic. We don't care if someone who works for a rental company reads these newsgroups. All I insist is that you keep this stuff out of rec.autos.simulators, I'm sure I'm not the only 1 who doesn't want his stuff there. Thanks Chris Fisher

: >: : >: At the same time, I currently don't have a problem with using the new : >: refrigerant in my '95 Saturn, and my '66 Mustang doesn't have an A/C, : >: so I guess I'm currently in good shape. : >: : >: I've seen both the media as well as research scientists balloon facts : >: in order to get attention (Pons-Fleischmann is a good example), : >But cold fusion was never accepted by the scientific community. Ozone : >depletion, OTOH, is accepted and again, Rowland et al won a Nobel Prize : >for it. : Check today's New York Times- Science Times section, Tues 6/18. : It's not so universally accepted as you think. That's global climate change, not ozone. That is a much more difficult and complicated long term problem, and scientists know the difference. There is lots of controversy about climate change, but most people think that it is reasonable to think that man can have a significant effect. That there is controversy is not news to scientists. What it that effect would be, how long it would take to show up, and whether it is, at present distinguishable from other sources of fluctuation is the subject of thousands of scientific papers, a number of journals, general and specific, and dozens of conferences attended by a gazillion scientists worldwide. There is a general reason to worry about it: man's excess output of CO2 and other gases *is* of similar magnitude to that naturally produced, and there is fundamental zeroth order thermodynamics + physics that cannot be made to go away. -- Oak Ridge National Laboratory/University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN USA/ *NO MASS EMAIL SPAM* It's an abuse of Federal Government computer resources and an affront to common civility. On account of egregiously vile spamation, my software terminates all email from "interramp.com" and "cris.com" without human intervention.

: [global snip] : > All the world's industrialized nations wouldn't have agreed to the ban on : > CFCs if the scientific evidence wasn't overwhelming. : However, let's not discount the influence of the incredibly powerful :environmental lobby. I'm assuming you're being ironic here. : Scientific evidence in and of itself does not make : legislation. Otherwise, we wouldn't have tobacco. But : that's another issue. : Matt In any case, why would your stereotypical treehugging-'berkeley'stock-wearing-dope-smoking-socialist-vegetarian-activist care about some odd flurocarbon chemical? It is usually incredibly inert. Why would they invent a problem with *that* when there are far more obvious and visible ones closer to the ground? That there is an ozone hole thanks to UV dissociation of freon in polar stratospheric regions is so utterly bizzare and odd that it can't help but be true. One of the first signs was *observational*: a satellite gave such 'off the scale' numbers that they thought it was an instrument glitch. Environmentalists have no stake in making up a problem about freon as it's distracting to their other causes, and scientists have no stake in inventing something to "demolish the order of the capitalist society" or some such nonsense because that order is what pays their salaries. Besides, there's little 'political correctness' on scientific issues among scientists: many just itch for the opportunity to bring down some accepted paradigm, as it brings presitge and fame and money and respect. It only works if the facts are on their side. -- Oak Ridge National Laboratory/University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN USA/ *NO MASS EMAIL SPAM* It's an abuse of Federal Government computer resources and an affront to common civility. On account of egregiously vile spamation, my software terminates all email from "interramp.com" and "cris.com" without human intervention.

: > : >This is fabulous!! : > : >All I do is start them, jam the pedal to the floor and listen to the : >rev limiter. Scares H**l out of passengers who think the engine is : >gonna explode. I usually try to spin the tires at 70 KPH in the rain. : >Much easier with the front wheel drive models. : > : >And, oh boy, Curbs LOOK OUT! NOCEMS. : > : >have your fun and drive it too.... : > : : Curbs eh? I love to hit em straight on! and if it pops the Hubcap off : I go get that they will charge you for that. : Another thing to do is take the rental car to a local small airstrip : and buy some of the class c aviation fuel its about 130 octane and put : that in the tank and hit the road!! : Sometimes on the fords they will get so hot that the underhood plastic : will "Heat Soak" and actually crumble if you touch it ! I did this to : the lincoln # 2 in texas last year I kept getting it hot and the fan : shroud started to crumble away. and the plastic snake wireharness : covers crumbled away..... Hey I must be so boring. I only rip off the radio and replace it with a fake cover. Of course I also pee on all the seats and pour some real fine sand into the transmission fluid fililer. It's more fun to do this to the cars that you're not even renting!!! -- Oak Ridge National Laboratory/University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN USA/ *NO MASS EMAIL SPAM* It's an abuse of Federal Government computer resources and an affront to common civility. On account of egregiously vile spamation, my software terminates all email from "interramp.com" and "cris.com" without human intervention.

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> > S> Then The first thing I do is get on the highway in 1st gear and > > S> leave it there for a while. If I am at a location with drive able > > S> beaches like in Galveston Texas I take a spin on the sand at about > > S> 100 Mph and do doughnuts. Another favorite is to put the AIR on > > S> high and If I am waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral > > S> till the rev-limiter kicks er off and on and hold it there and > > S> slam it into gear. > >This is depressing. > Depending on your outlook. I found it very entertaining and don't for > a minute believe any of it. Besides even if it was true what > percentage of the US population that rents cars do you honestly think > participates in this kind of behavior? Did it influence you to act > this way? Do you think there are a bunch of people sitting on the > fence between "should I" or "shouldn't I" that it swayed? NOT!!

What pissed off everyone more than his original posting is Martine's angry personality and attitude. His original posting about damaging rental cars was bad enough, but his 'screw you and everybody else' attitude isn't the type attitude that people here like. No one says we have to like Martine, and few here do. I doubt he has many real friends, in my opinion. -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

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> > Jeezzz there's some weirdo out there, makes me glad to be in Australia > > away from all the weirdos like this guy. > > -- > > Jerry Bransford > > PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. > > The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything! > Dammit Jerry, there you go again with that down-under knuckle-dragger > patriotism.. what'd I tell you about that! > -- > Tom Johnston

Nope, you got your editiong screwed up....I'm in San Diego., that was someone else who was from 'down-under'. -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

On Jun 20, 1996 00:39:31 in article <Re: Legal Freon Substitute>, >Besides, there's little 'political correctness' on scientific issues among >scientists: many just itch for the opportunity to bring down some accepted >paradigm, as it brings presitge and fame and money and respect. It only works >if the facts are on their side. - - Money maybe - didn't Congress come up with $1,000,000 for the cold fusion guys Pons and Fleishman ? And Texas A&M "scientists" were able to recreate the experiment independently a few days afterwards. All phoney. Also, I've seen many examples of scientists and other academics that cannot get a job if they are on the wrong side of currently accepted theory. - Houston, Texas

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> > Another thing to do is take the rental car to a local small airstrip > > and buy some of the class c aviation fuel its about 130 octane and put > > that in the tank and hit the road!! > At least you should know what to ask for at the airstrip. There's no such > thing as "Class C" aviation fuel. What you want is 100 octane low lead > (100LL). That and Jet A for the turbines are about the only types of fuel > you'll find at an airstrip these days. Your rental car won't run on > Jet-A, it's basically kerosene. The 100LL will probably make your car > accelerate a little quicker, but I'm afraid it won't make it run much > faster. And it costs $2 to $3 per gallon. There used to be an aviation > fuel that was rated at 80 octane. It would make a car engine knock like > you wouldn't believe. A few days of that, and the valves and pistons > would be history. > C. Marin Faure > author, Flying a Floatplane > Nope, using higher octane gasoline than the engine requires won't make a

car perform any better at all. Putting 100LL (I'm also a pilot) in a car's tank won't do anything to make it run any better if the car is designed to run on 87/89/91 octane, as most are and all modern cars are. All that additional octane does is increase the ability of gasoline to withstand more compression without detonating prior to receiving the spark from the spark plug. -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

|> I am dating myself on that one ! Never a doubt here. What's the problem pal? Can't get a real date even with all those "impressive driving skills"? -- Later, CT O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o o o o O Do it in the wind. O o o O 95FXSTC (still ain't fast enough...but gettin' there) O o 92XL250R (what can I say?...HD's don't do offroad) o O O o Standard Disclaimer: I don't care what they say, o O I had nuthin' to do with it! O o o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O

: (Lloyd R. Parker) writes: : : >But the vast majority of the scientific community has accepted the : >CFC-ozone link, because there's a ton of evidence to support it and none : >to refute it. : > : > : : Not so. That vast majority only believe it harms the ozone so they will : get more cash from the US government to stury how to "fix" the problem. : The money these guys get is very substantial andif I was being handed over : that kind of cash i would tell you that the moon was made of green cheese. : : : Gene No, you are as wrong as the flat-earthers. CFC has been shown, by overwhelming evidence and an understanding of the chemistry, to destroy the ozone layer. Maybe you should get some FACTS before spouting off. Try taking a SCIENCE course. Not everybody shares your admitted lack of ethics.

: On Jun 20, 1996 00:39:31 in article <Re: Legal Freon Substitute>, : : : > : >Besides, there's little 'political correctness' on scientific issues among : : >scientists: many just itch for the opportunity to bring down some : accepted : >paradigm, as it brings presitge and fame and money and respect. It only : works : >if the facts are on their side. : > : - : - : Money maybe - didn't Congress come up with $1,000,000 for the cold fusion : guys Pons and Fleishman ? No. The state of Utah provided them with a research center. Nobody else, including Congress would, because nobody in science really believed cold fusion happened. As it turns out, Utah should have listened to the scientists. : And Texas A&M "scientists" were able to recreate the experiment : independently a few days afterwards. : All phoney. Not really. Others got strange results -- sometimes the energy, sometimes less, most often none at all. Most never got any particles associated with fusion. Nobody was ever able to consistently reproduce their work (including Pons and Fleischman). : : Also, I've seen many examples of scientists and other academics that cannot : get a job if they are on the wrong : side of currently accepted theory. Then you haven't seen academia. But seriously, would you hire a scientist who claims the earth is flat? Or than gravity is due to angels tugging on you? Or the earth is 4000 years old? Or that a flood covered with earth?

. Another favorite is to put the AIR on high and If I am You must of been neglected in your childhood. I feel sorry for you. A good doctor might be able to help you. A visit to the county jail might even do you more good. Your day will come as what goes around comes around. I see a lot of car breakdowns in your future and when it happens don't wonder why. GK

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|> Nope, using higher octane gasoline than the engine requires won't make a |> car perform any better at all. Putting 100LL (I'm also a pilot) in a |> car's tank won't do anything to make it run any better if the car is |> designed to run on 87/89/91 octane, as most are and all modern cars are. |> All that additional octane does is increase the ability of gasoline to |> withstand more compression without detonating prior to receiving the |> spark from the spark plug.

You're right Jerry. Running higher octane fuel than dictated by the engine's compression does nothing at all to "improve" performance. Additionally, it can in some cases actually "degrade" performance and even cause engine damage. Because of the formulation to help prevent detonation, higher octane fuels generally promote slower flame front travel than lower octane fuels. That is, the burn rate is attenuated. Initiating the combustion of high octane fuel in a low compression motor is like trying to light a wet cigarette. It's effectively like retarding the ignition timing. This can result in engine overheating, burned exhaust valves, and possibly catalytic converter destruction. By tuning, (usually increasing ignition advance) the condition can be compensated for. However, the performance will be down due to poor combustion efficiency. Some computer controlled engines may be capable of sorting things out and dealing with the fuel change; others may become thoroughly confused and compound the problem by affecting bogus adjustments in the system. Bottom line: filling the tank of a passenger car with aviation fuel in nothing more than an exercise is wastefulness. (Evidently the sole intention of the *moron* that conceived this thread.) -- Later, CT O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o o o o O Do it in the wind. O o o O 95FXSTC (still ain't fast enough...but gettin' there) O o 92XL250R (what can I say?...HD's don't do offroad) o O O o Standard Disclaimer: I don't care what they say, o O I had nuthin' to do with it! O o o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O o O

: : (Lloyd R. Parker) writes: : : : : >But the vast majority of the scientific community has accepted the : : >CFC-ozone link, because there's a ton of evidence to support it and none : : >to refute it. : : > : : > : : : : Not so. That vast majority only believe it harms the ozone so they will : : get more cash from the US government to stury how to "fix" the problem. : : The money these guys get is very substantial andif I was being handed over : : that kind of cash i would tell you that the moon was made of green cheese. : : : : : : Gene Uhh, no. One molecule of chloroflourocarbon (any type) can destroy like fifty thousand molecules of ozone. Granted, the government says some types of things expel far more dangers than they actually do, CFC's still kill ozone. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Mather POD Engineering Dept. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>> Children will be children. This is why you have to be over 25 to rent a

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>>> car! >>> -- >>> Charles Prichard, Maitland FL >>Are you kidding me? That guy's probably 40. I know 15 year-olds

with >>learner's permits who have more sense and a hell of a lot more idea about >>how to treat a car than that guy. Age has nothing to do with it... except >>that the rental car agents trust the guy implicitly since he's old, >>instead of calling the cops on him like they aught to. >You are probably right. Seems like I have seen someone like this at a stop >light on Capitol Blvd, Raleigh, NC. Some idiot is setting at the light with >a Lincold Continental. I thought the brakes had over heated in the rear at >first. Maybe they had, but they had because the guy was power braking the >thing at wideopen. The rear wheels were spinning so fast, they weren't even >squalling. Left dual marks all the way across the intersection. Guy looked >to be in his mid thirties to 40's. You could see him laughing and grinning >like a idiot to his riding partner. He sat there for at least 45 to 50 >seconds like that. Had to be pretty tough on the whole driveline. I respect >teh 4.6L after that, anything that can take that kind of abuse that long

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>is pretty tough. >Later, >TurboDave >David L. Pearce >1984 Laser XE Turbo

What a great deal!!!! Burning up those lincolns--They will last a while!! at lease till the tires get down to the cords.. They only give you one GIMP spair. and then when you put the gimp spair on it will only make it a couple burn outs... -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

So the big question is that has anybody used these substitutes in a car that requires freon? Are they available at your local auto parts store? Anthony

<usual thread cut> Unfortunately, when the semester starts, the pinheads will go back to school with the normal people. We will get a flurry of uneducated, brainless posts that justify involuntary euthanasia on the first day of school, and then we will see the ones with the some clue and politeness posting over the following months. Sigh. Scott -- _____________________________________________________________________________ My opinions are my own EViews ftp: ftp.netcom.com:/pub/qm/qms Quantitative Micro Software - 714 856 3368 "The barbarian is thwarted at the moat" - Scott Adams

>What pissed off everyone more than his original posting is Martine's >angry personality and attitude. Sorry Martine but I think Jerry B. has a point here. Agreed. I don't know Martine personally so... not much I can say here. I've probably said too much all ready in the wrong news group so I'll lay off the stupid rental car tricks thread.

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> Pearce) writes: > >In article > >>> Children will be children. This is why you have to be over 25 to > rent a > >>> car! > >>> -- > >>> Charles Prichard, Maitland FL > >>Are you kidding me? That guy's probably 40. I know 15 year-olds > with > >>learner's permits who have more sense and a hell of a lot more idea > about > >>how to treat a car than that guy. Age has nothing to do with it... > except > >>that the rental car agents trust the guy implicitly since he's old, > >>instead of calling the cops on him like they aught to. > >You are probably right. Seems like I have seen someone like this at a > stop > >light on Capitol Blvd, Raleigh, NC. Some idiot is setting at the light > with > >a Lincold Continental. I thought the brakes had over heated in the > rear at > >first. Maybe they had, but they had because the guy was power braking > the > >thing at wideopen. The rear wheels were spinning so fast, they weren't > even > >squalling. Left dual marks all the way across the intersection. Guy > looked > >to be in his mid thirties to 40's. You could see him laughing and > grinning > >like a idiot to his riding partner. He sat there for at least 45 to 50 > >seconds like that. Had to be pretty tough on the whole driveline. I > respect > >teh 4.6L after that, anything that can take that kind of abuse that > long > >is pretty tough. > >Later, > >TurboDave > >David L. Pearce > >1984 Laser XE Turbo > What a great deal!!!! Burning up those lincolns--They will last a > while!! at lease till the tires get down to the cords.. > They only give you one GIMP spair. and then when you put the gimp > spair on it will only make it a couple burn outs... > -- > Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > E-Mail > Your comments always welcome

Remember, that's: Martine, S L...Diamond Bar, CA 91765 Phone: (909)594-3644 -- ---------------------------------- Abe L. Getchell Systems Programmer Sanders-Brown Center on Aging University of Kentucky Lexington, Ky 40536 (606)323-6040 ----------------------------------

}On page 128 of the July issue of Car Craft magazine there is an article }that says" Pennzoil FR-12 Refrigerant" Pennzoil Products has become the }distributor for FRIGC, FR-12 refrigerant. Its properties are virtually }identical to R-12, also known as Freon, the most widely used automotive }A/C system refrigerant. However, R-12 is now banned by the EPA.* RE-12 }solves the problem of having to undergo costly changes with an R-12 A/C }system. It's ready to use with only minimal system adaptation and has }been accepted by the EPA. New cars now use R-134a and older R-12 systems }can't use R-134a without significant alterations. The FR-12 refrigerant }is compatible with R-12 systems. Contact your local auto parts dealer. } }*Production of R-12 is banned not the use. } } }The above not including the asterisk is a word for word quote from }Pennzoil and Car Craft mag. So this stuff is apparently real and }it is not 134a. It looks like anyone hoarding R-12 is going to be }out of alot of money in the near future. Not likely. EPA has been banning the substitutes almost as fast as they appear. -- "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue."

I was told that the patent on R-12 was about to expire so the patent holder said it was no longer any good so now they can sell the new stuff with a new patent. Don't know if it is true but it came from a non-partial mechanic who had no axe to grind. As for the EPA, I am sure they can be influenced

> I am dating myself on that one ! Its the 100 LL , it used to be 130 in > 1988 when I used to get it. but its blue and makes em run hot and > knocks fire out of the pistons. Well, no. Higher octane fuel actually makes an engine run cooler. And 100/130 was green... C. Marin Faure author, Flying a Floatplane

> Aha, an Aussie. I don't want to insult a whole nation, but I heard a similar > story from someone down under about a month ago. About renting an Explorer > and taking it offroad. Besides the fact that these things are not made for > that, the Aussie word 'offroad' is not the same as in the US. Said >something Strange... The Explorer isn't sold in Australia.... So the story must be bogus. The only US product we get is the Cherokee and Grand Cherokee. You mean a Yankie 4WD can't do what a japanese 4wd can do? Says something about the American product. Richard

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>writes: >>> FInally a man with some sense to know that 1) I am telling the >truth >>> and 2) there is NOTHING any of you can do about it!!! >>> -- >>> Stop =-POLICE-= ***. >>> E-Mail >>> Your comments always welcome >>Nothing we can do?? How many S. L. Martine's live in California? >>(Answer: exactly one in Diamond Bar) >>How many national car rental companies are there? (Answer: not >>too many to write letters to and attach copies of your postings...) >>Do what you will, but if your caught and forced to pay for your >>crimes, don't expect us to cry for you. (After all, you are the >>one bragging about it on the net for whatever reason.) > Ok go ahead and waste your time !!! all those companies care aboput is >BOTTOM LINE!! The cars I did this to are loooong Gone!! and they arent >going to notify the owner and risk being partially liable... >-- >Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > E-Mail > Your comments always welcome

Jon Marchant

I posted in response to yet another childish whine by S. L. Martine: <snip stupid drivel>

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>> Ok go ahead and waste your time !!! all those companies care aboput is >>BOTTOM LINE!! The cars I did this to are loooong Gone!! and they arent >>going to notify the owner and risk being partially liable... >>-- >>Stop =-POLICE-= ***. >> E-Mail >> Your comments always welcome >Jon Marchant

Many apologies for the continuation of this idiotic spam. I intended to e-mail this message back to the little child who started it all, S. L. M. I have been sending him a copy of each of his spams. I wouldn't want to suggest that everybody do that, but... Jon Marchant

says...

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>Pearce) writes: >>In article >>>> Children will be children. This is why you have to be over 25 to >rent a >>>> car! >>>> -- >>>> Charles Prichard, Maitland FL >>>Are you kidding me? That guy's probably 40. I know 15 year-olds >with >>>learner's permits who have more sense and a hell of a lot more idea >about >>>how to treat a car than that guy. Age has nothing to do with it... >except >>>that the rental car agents trust the guy implicitly since he's old, >>>instead of calling the cops on him like they aught to. >>You are probably right. Seems like I have seen someone like this at a >stop >>light on Capitol Blvd, Raleigh, NC. Some idiot is setting at the light >with >>a Lincold Continental. I thought the brakes had over heated in the >rear at >>first. Maybe they had, but they had because the guy was power braking >the >>thing at wideopen. The rear wheels were spinning so fast, they weren't >even >>squalling. Left dual marks all the way across the intersection. Guy >looked >>to be in his mid thirties to 40's. You could see him laughing and >grinning >>like a idiot to his riding partner. He sat there for at least 45 to 50 >>seconds like that. Had to be pretty tough on the whole driveline. I >respect >>teh 4.6L after that, anything that can take that kind of abuse that >long >>is pretty tough.

Except that the Continental is front wheel drive.... -- Jordan Blessing L1 Master Tech

Martine) writes:

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>>Please...stop >Ok Ill stop !! But its not my fault to all of those who reply!!! >-- >Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > E-Mail > Your comments always welcome

Hey kid, do your folks know that you are using their computer?

How about this, drain all the oil out, and see how far the car can go. Like a competition, for example take a toyota vs. a chevy. See which car can get farther on no oil. Or better yet, in a six cylinder car, take 4 cylinders out and see the 0-60 time. Boy this list can go on, I appreciate the tips.

Some idiot is setting at the light When did the Continental go to front wheel drive? I had a Continental company car several years ago (what a BOAT!) and it was still a rear-wheel drive car. -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

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> > I am dating myself on that one ! Its the 100 LL , it used to be 130 in > > 1988 when I used to get it. but its blue and makes em run hot and > > knocks fire out of the pistons. > Well, no. Higher octane fuel actually makes an engine run cooler. And > 100/130 was green... > C. Marin Faure > author, Flying a Floatplane

Read the two earlier posts on what higher octane does, cannot do, and what harm it can actually cause to an engine. It does not always cause an engine to run cooler, and in some cases can actually cause an engine to run hotter and even severely damage some engines. Not rumor, fact! It's amazing how few people know what octane is and does. -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

months. FYI: this is called Usenet's everlasting September effect (or was it 'never ending'?). Bye, W.J. Markerink The desire to understand is sometimes far less intelligent than the inability to understand

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> To summarize: > 1. We know CFCs make it into the stratosphere -- we've measured them there. > 2. We know uv light breaks a Cl free radical off a CFC molecule -- simple > chemistry. > 3. We know a Cl free radical breaks down an ozone molecule -- again, > simply chemisty. > 4. We know CFCs are the primary source of Cl in the stratosphere because > no other Cl source makes it up there AND the F concentration correlates > with the Cl concentration there. > 5. We know the CFC concentration in the stratosphere has been increasing > for decades, correlating with the usage of CFCs. > 6. We know the ozone layer has been degrading, correlating with the > amount of CFCs making it up to the stratosphere.

I have a few questions. 1. What created(s) the "ozone layer"? 2. If UV is needed to create these "Cl free radicals" why are the "ozone holes" always over the poles (usually the pole in its winter phase) and not over the equator where direct sunlight would seem to have a much stronger effect? 3. Why is the "ozone layer" now "healing" even though the CFC ban has not been effect long enough to make any difference? 4. Does the level of solar activity have any effect on the "ozone layer"? I followed one of the EPA links that someone posted and I saw no scientific proof to back up the "hole" theory. The "data" was oversimplistic and was as detailed as the claim "stuff causes cancer because it is bad for you". It may be true but I refuse to take the words of bureauocrats as fact, even if backed by scientists. If anyone knows where I can access raw scientific data on this subject via the net, please let me know. Summations mean little to me if the data is not accessible. I'm willing to learn but I would like to see all the "facts" before I buy into a theory. BTW, I am interested in seeing this discussion continue but I think it may be needlessly cluttering up a few extra NGs. If anyone has a suggestion as to where to take it, I will follow. I am posting from rec.autos.simulators and I think some of these guys may be getting tired of this thread. Dan

Matt, you seem to be missing the point here. InterCool Energy (ICE) FRIGC FR-12, marketed through Pennzoil Products Company, IS ALREADY APPROVED by EPA. The spec sheet from InterCool states "It has been listed as SNAP acceptable fy the U.S. EPA for use in all mobile applications." Also, FRIGC FR-12 is described as "Listed by the EPA as an 'acceptable alternative' to R-12 for the automotive aftermarket...." -- "My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." -- Errol Flynn (and me too!)

Matt, you seem to be missing the point here. InterCool Energy (ICE) FRIGC FR-12, marketed through Pennzoil Products Company, IS ALREADY APPROVED by EPA. The spec sheet from InterCool states "It has been listed as SNAP acceptable by the U.S. EPA for use in all mobile applications." Also, FRIGC FR-12 is described as "Listed by the EPA as an 'acceptable alternative' to R-12 for the automotive aftermarket...." -- "My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income." -- Errol Flynn (and me too!)

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>Know what a little bird told me? If you put synthetic oil in your a/c and >solder in a bigger orifice tube, you can run 134a in an r-12 system. >Cost: about six bucks and an hour. > Kev >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Kevin Mather >POD Engineering Dept. >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Possibly true, with one MAJOR exception. You sure better purge the old system of all CFCs and the old oil first! Mixed with R134a (as I understand it), you got corrosion problems. Also (minor if you don't mind constant topping off of the system) is that the hoses for R-12 are too porous for R134a. Using the same heat exchanger, you will find a slight decrease in efficiency, also. MY theory for global warming is that it is not the CFCs we have pumped into the atmosphere with our air conditioners, IT IS THE HEAT!

>: >: Actually, Jeffery... I hear this all the time...and please don't think I'm >: picking on you... But ALL of the refrigerants are ozone-safe. I find it >: amazing that you personally buy into the nonsense about them destroying the >: ozone hole. What's even more amazing is that, while it's taken 50 years of

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>: production, and massive releases to damage the ozone they say, supposedly >: it's already healing - and it's supposed to be due to the new laws. >Wrong. It's been proven scientifically (a term you don't seem familiar >with) that CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Gee, some fool could say the >earth is flat too. Doesn't make it so. You might read up on the science >of the situation before showing off your right-wing extremist views. >: >: I don't get it, freon-12 is almost harmless, i >Destroys ozone on the stratosphere, leading to increased uv radiation on >earth, leading to skin cancer, cataracts, and genetic mutations. Hardly >harmless. >: t's not poisonous unless burned, >: but 134a is lethal. >Not so. Both kill by suffocation. >: And, it's 4 times the cost. I figure that's where the >: REAL value of it is. You should be ashamed to have your agency used >: politically to profit the maker of 134a. >You should be embarrasseed by your rantings that are unsupported by any >science. >: I hope Arizona sticks with their >: determination to re-start the production of r-12. The EPA lawsuit will

have

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>: to PROVE the theory about ozone depletion, which it cannot do, and we'll be >: done with this nonsense. >: >Well, AZ would first have to sue to overturn the federal ban, meaning >they would have to prove CFCs are harmless. And they can't do that -- >every scientific study has shwon CFCs destroy the ozone. The developers >of this theory won the Nobel Prize, something not given for a theory not >accepted by science. >A thought to ponder.

If we followed the same rules for HIV as we follow for the EPA, we would quarantine all HIV Positives. Note the double standare. For the EPA one must prove that an item will not cause any harm to the environment (not that it does). For HIV, the evidence is held that certain exposures are not dangerous because it has not been proven to be dangerous (not that it has not been proven NOT to be dangerous). I DO find myself questioning the recent "scientific" evidence that the Ozone Layer is already healing itself due to the ban on CFCs (Which haven't even been fully implemented, as yet).

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>: : (Lloyd R. Parker) writes: >: : >: : >But the vast majority of the scientific community has accepted the >: : >CFC-ozone link, because there's a ton of evidence to support it and none >: : >to refute it. >: : > >: : > >: : >: : Not so. That vast majority only believe it harms the ozone so they will >: : get more cash from the US government to stury how to "fix" the problem. >: : The money these guys get is very substantial andif I was being handed

over >: : that kind of cash i would tell you that the moon was made of green cheese.

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>: : >: : >: : Gene >Uhh, no. One molecule of chloroflourocarbon (any type) can destroy >like fifty thousand molecules of ozone. Granted, the government says some >types of things expel far more dangers than they actually do, CFC's still >kill ozone. >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Kevin Mather >POD Engineering Dept. >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just pump the surface air from LA, Phoenix, Houston, and Denver into the stratosphere (note that this is just the worst US cities, some in Asia make them seem like clear air cities). RECYCLE OZONE!

I work for Hertz right now as a summer job, they go through so many cars a day, when we get a car that has something wrong with it I fill out a slip and send it to the garage, I clean and inspect the cars and we don't spend more than ten minutes cleaning any car. I think the place I work at must rent over 300 cars a day, if one of those gets wrecked it is the price of doing buisness. I am not saying that I agree with wrecking cars, but to try and blacklist someone from rental car companies would be impossible.

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>>Know what a little bird told me? If you put synthetic oil in your a/c and >>solder in a bigger orifice tube, you can run 134a in an r-12 system. >>Cost: about six bucks and an hour. >> Kev >>-- >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Kevin Mather >>POD Engineering Dept. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Possibly true, with one MAJOR exception. You sure better purge the old system >of all CFCs and the old oil first! Mixed with R134a (as I understand it), you >got corrosion problems. Also (minor if you don't mind constant topping off of >the system) is that the hoses for R-12 are too porous for R134a. >Using the same heat exchanger, you will find a slight decrease in efficiency, >also. >MY theory for global warming is that it is not the CFCs we have pumped into >the atmosphere with our air conditioners, IT IS THE HEAT!

It is not global warming that is the problem with cfc's it is destruction of the ozone layer which protects us from UV rays causing cancer etc(they do contribute to global warming)

[ huge snip ] rec.autos.simulators Well said. Otherwise rec.autos.simulators will start crossposting endless speculations on Microprose GP II over your way. Not recommended ... :-) James -- James Bevan NeXTMail & MIME welcome

Jerrause these coursed in school. Octane is, for those who dont already know, is c8h18. Oct means 8, get it? Therefore you have 8 carbons. Another ex: Hexane: = c6h14 (6 carbons) Noe you all know what octane is Thanks, CT Hawaii: Cole "If you dont like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk"

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>When did the Continental go to front wheel drive? I had a Continental >company car several years ago (what a BOAT!) and it was still a >rear-wheel drive car. >-- >Jerry Bransford >PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. >The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

Who knows what Continental he's talking about. Town Cars are rear wheel, always have been, always will be.

Just butting in to this interesting conversation... A point I haven't seen brought up that I read in "Time" and another magazine whose name eludes me is: Cfc's destroy ozone, most scientists will agree, the question is how much damage are humans really responsable for. When Mount Pinatubo (spelling) exploded the estimate was that it threw out more ozone destroying chemicals in its multiple eruptions than humans have expelled in 500 YEARS or more. Kinda makes you wonder how much good banning cfc's will do. note...these numbers aren't exact (hence no quote marks) but this is the jist of what I read twice. I will endeaver to find the exact wording. Randy Simcox

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>>>>Are you kidding me? That guy's probably 40. I know 15 year-olds >>with >>>>learner's permits who have more sense and a hell of a lot more idea >>about >>>>how to treat a car than that guy. Age has nothing to do with it... >>except >>>>that the rental car agents trust the guy implicitly since he's old, >>>>instead of calling the cops on him like they aught to. >>>You are probably right. Seems like I have seen someone like this at a >>stop >>>light on Capitol Blvd, Raleigh, NC. Some idiot is setting at the light >>with >>>a Lincold Continental. I thought the brakes had over heated in the >>rear at >>>first. Maybe they had, but they had because the guy was power braking >>the >>>thing at wideopen. The rear wheels were spinning so fast, they weren't >>even >>>squalling. Left dual marks all the way across the intersection. Guy >>looked >>>to be in his mid thirties to 40's. You could see him laughing and >>grinning >>>like a idiot to his riding partner. He sat there for at least 45 to 50 >>>seconds like that. Had to be pretty tough on the whole driveline. I >>respect >>>teh 4.6L after that, anything that can take that kind of abuse that >>long >>>is pretty tough. >Except that the Continental is front wheel drive.... >-- >Jordan Blessing L1 Master Tech

Maybe the Continental is the V6 FWD one. If so then this is my mistake. The car that was being burned was the 4 door land yacht that I have personally crawled under and know that it is a RWD car. I just ASSUMED it was a Conni. I thought that was just a option package . . . Later, TurboDave David L. Pearce 1984 Laser XE Turbo

Uh, I think freon was a major cause of ozone depletion, not global warming. BTW, there are other ODCs (ozone depleting chemicals), the list is quite long, running into the 100s and the DoD is stopping use of them ASAP without shutting down the total Defense Dept. and all electronics manufacture (a major user of ODCs) in the country for the Dod.

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>>Know what a little bird told me? If you put synthetic oil in your a/c and >>solder in a bigger orifice tube, you can run 134a in an r-12 system. >>Cost: about six bucks and an hour. >> Kev >>-- >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>Kevin Mather >>POD Engineering Dept. >>----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Possibly true, with one MAJOR exception. You sure better purge the old system >of all CFCs and the old oil first! Mixed with R134a (as I understand it), you >got corrosion problems. Also (minor if you don't mind constant topping off of >the system) is that the hoses for R-12 are too porous for R134a. >Using the same heat exchanger, you will find a slight decrease in efficiency, >also. >MY theory for global warming is that it is not the CFCs we have pumped into >the atmosphere with our air conditioners, IT IS THE HEAT!

(Chris Troudt) writes: >|> Nope, using higher octane gasoline than the engine requires won't make a >|> car perform any better at all. Putting 100LL (I'm also a pilot) in a >|> car's tank won't do anything to make it run any better if the car is >|> designed to run on 87/89/91 octane, as most are and all modern cars are. >|> All that additional octane does is increase the ability of gasoline to >|> withstand more compression without detonating prior to receiving the

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>|> spark from the spark plug. >You're right Jerry. Running higher octane fuel than dictated by the >engine's compression does nothing at all to "improve" performance. >Additionally, it can in some cases actually "degrade" performance and >even cause engine damage. Because of the formulation to help prevent >detonation, higher octane fuels generally promote slower flame front >travel than lower octane fuels. That is, the burn rate is attenuated. >Initiating the combustion of high octane fuel in a low compression >motor is like trying to light a wet cigarette. It's effectively like >retarding the ignition timing. This can result in engine overheating, >burned exhaust valves, and possibly catalytic converter destruction. >By tuning, (usually increasing ignition advance) the condition can be >compensated for. However, the performance will be down due to poor >combustion efficiency. Some computer controlled engines may be

capable >of sorting things out and dealing with the fuel change; others may become >thoroughly confused and compound the problem by affecting bogus adjustments >in the system. Bottom line: filling the tank of a passenger car with >aviation fuel in nothing more than an exercise is wastefulness. >(Evidently the sole intention of the *moron* that conceived this thread.) I didnt say I wanted to keep the car, for more than a day!! its a rental car and the more I tear it up the better!!! I just want to take it back semi-running so they rent it to a couple more people before complete failure so they dont know where to lay the blame.... and your right I love to waste new rental cars!! -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

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>. Another favorite is to put the AIR on high and If I am >> waiting at a Stoplight I run it up in neutral till the rev-limiter >> kicks er off and on and hold it there and slam it into gear. >> > I feel its my right to do this. . >> I have been doing it for 9 years now >> and never had a problem.....at least I never had one.....heheheh LOL >> ROTFL >You must of been neglected in your childhood. I feel sorry for you. >A good doctor might be able to help you. A visit to the county >jail might even do you more good. Your day will come as what goes >around comes around. I see a lot of car breakdowns in your future >and when it happens don't wonder why. >GK

Ok I am ready with my AAA card!!! Anytime -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

Thatsa right dont you forget it come by 112300 so. canyon way #b you forgot to tell them that to!!!

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>Martine, S L...Diamond Bar, CA 91765 >Phone: (909)594-3644 >-- >---------------------------------- >Abe L. Getchell >Systems Programmer >Sanders-Brown Center on Aging >University of Kentucky >Lexington, Ky 40536 >(606)323-6040 >----------------------------------

-- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

: I was told that the patent on R-12 was about to expire so the patent : holder said it was no longer any good so now they can sell the new stuff : with a new patent. : Don't know if it is true but it came from a non-partial mechanic who had : no axe to grind. As for the EPA, I am sure they can be influenced Not true. Many companies have made R12. The EPA has approved several substitutes. Your mechanic is ignorant. Why do these myths about conspiraces keep raising their heads? Do people have some need to believe somebody's trying to control their lives?

: > : > To summarize: : > : > 1. We know CFCs make it into the stratosphere -- we've measured them there. : > 2. We know uv light breaks a Cl free radical off a CFC molecule -- simple : > chemistry. : > 3. We know a Cl free radical breaks down an ozone molecule -- again, : > simply chemisty. : > 4. We know CFCs are the primary source of Cl in the stratosphere because : > no other Cl source makes it up there AND the F concentration correlates : > with the Cl concentration there. : > 5. We know the CFC concentration in the stratosphere has been increasing : > for decades, correlating with the usage of CFCs. : > 6. We know the ozone layer has been degrading, correlating with the : > amount of CFCs making it up to the stratosphere. : : I have a few questions. : : 1. What created(s) the "ozone layer"? Uv light breaks an O atom off an O2 molecule; the O atom combines with another O2 molecule to make an O3 (ozone) molecule. : : 2. If UV is needed to create these "Cl free radicals" why are the "ozone : holes" always over the poles (usually the pole in its winter phase) and not : over the equator where direct sunlight would seem to have a much stronger : effect? The poles are isolated in their winter by air currents, giving the reactions lots of time to happen. : : 3. Why is the "ozone layer" now "healing" even though the CFC ban has not : been effect long enough to make any difference? It's not. The Antarctic hole was bigger last year than at any time in history, as was the depleted region over the Arctic. : : 4. Does the level of solar activity have any effect on the "ozone layer"? There is some cycling of the ozone layer, yes. But a depletion like we've seen in the last 15 years has never occurred due to solar activity. : : > All the world's industrialized nations wouldn't have agreed to the ban on : > CFCs if the scientific evidence wasn't overwhelming. : : I followed one of the EPA links that someone posted and I saw no scientific : proof to back up the "hole" theory. Try a scientific journal (you know, library and all that). Science and Chemical & Engineering News are good places to start. : The "data" was oversimplistic and was : as detailed as the claim "stuff causes cancer because it is bad for you". : It may be true but I refuse to take the words of bureauocrats as fact, : even if backed by scientists. : Well, if you won't accept scientific data, I can't help you. Are you really qualified to judge the quality of the science? : If anyone knows where I can access raw scientific data on this subject via : the net, please let me know. Summations mean little to me if the data is : not accessible. I'm willing to learn but I would like to see all the : "facts" before I buy into a theory. In science, a theory is the accepted explanation for something; it is not a guess. (Gee, this is freshman science stuff, folks!) A theory is the highest status an explanation can have. Ref the theory of gravity, theory of relativity, theory of quantum mechanics. Do you reject them because you don't have all the facts in front of you? :

: If we followed the same rules for HIV as we follow for the EPA, we would : quarantine all HIV Positives. Note the double standare. For the EPA one must : prove that an item will not cause any harm to the environment (not that it : does). For HIV, the evidence is held that certain exposures are not dangerous : because it has not been proven to be dangerous (not that it has not been : proven NOT to be dangerous). But it HAS been proven CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Have you read ANY scientific articles? Where does your pseudoinformation come from? And it was an international treaty, signed by President Bush and ratified by the Senate, that's banned R12. Not the EPA.

: Just butting in to this interesting conversation... : : A point I haven't seen brought up that I read in "Time" and another magazine whose : name eludes me is: Cfc's destroy ozone, most scientists will agree, the question is : how much damage are humans really responsable for. When Mount Pinatubo (spelling) : exploded the estimate was that it threw out more ozone destroying chemicals in its : multiple eruptions than humans have expelled in 500 YEARS or more. Kinda makes you : wonder how much good banning cfc's will do. : : note...these numbers aren't exact (hence no quote marks) but this is the jist of : what I read twice. I will endeaver to find the exact wording. Wrong! You are spreading lies. There was NO (repeat, NO) increase in Cl in the stratosphere after Pinatubo erupted. What part of that don't you understand? Why not go to a library and look up some scientific articles? You might actually learn something.

Pep Boys already has a substitute for R134a, but not freon yet. I will keep you posted.

: > > Another thing to do is take the rental car to a local small airstrip : > > and buy some of the class c aviation fuel its about 130 octane and put : > > that in the tank and hit the road!! : Not to mention that they will not sell aviation fuel for use in a car : snce highway taxes are not included in it..... If you can't figure out how to buy a can of gas, you definately lack creativity. I've seen people buy it for motercycles frequently, and done it once myself (didn't think it did much).

: > Aha, an Aussie. I don't want to insult a whole nation, but I heard a similar : > story from someone down under about a month ago. About renting an Explorer : > and taking it offroad. Besides the fact that these things are not made for : > that, the Aussie word 'offroad' is not the same as in the US. Said : >something : Strange... The Explorer isn't sold in Australia.... So the : story must be bogus. Huh? I would think the guy from Australia would have been in the US to rent one. Why would he rent one in Australia if he has his own trucks there? The story sounded like it happened in the US to me, only the driver was Austrailian. : The only US product we get is the Cherokee and Grand Cherokee. You did't get the CJ, YJ, or TJ?? I feel sorry for you. : You mean a Yankie 4WD can't do what a japanese 4wd can do? Well, seeing as more than 95% of the 4WD never leave the pavement here, seems Ford doesn't much care if it is a good off-road product, and they haven't since they designed the Bronco in the 60's, and it has become much less capable of off-roading since then. Dodge is doing a fair job, Chevy... with a little aftermarket help, and JEEP is still king if the (off-road dirt) hill. But I would put up almost any American 4X up against the Toyota RAV4. : Says something about the American product. I forget, what was the Australian product? (what does <doesn't> that say about the Australian product?) : Richard Any car can be distroyed, I have went threw several, of my own (NOT rentals). They are tools, they do a job, move people from A to B. And no one makes an "indestructable" one. When you get the urge to get to "Point B" and there are no roads to "point B" you just might end up breaking a few parts. To me, that is how I figure out the "weak link" in a truck, and it tells me what part to build stronger. I would be curious what kind of cars the guys who seem to love distroying rentals actually own. They either found one they think is strong enough in thier abuses, or they gave up and figure they are all gonna break someday so they drive a clunker. to all... ps.... Funny that the people who started the name calling are the ones who bash the car bashers. So, it takes an "***" to start calling people "pimple faced dateless children"???? Seems you are being more childish calling names during a discussion about the distruction of a leased car. Don't read it if you don't like it.

: Jerrause : > an engine to run cooler, and in some cases can actually cause an engine : > to run hotter and even severely damage some engines. Not rumor, fact! : > It's amazing how few people know what octane is and does. : > -- : > Jerry Bransford : > PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. : > The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything! : I know what it is. Im an organic chemistry buff! Did very well with : these coursed in school. Octane is, for those who dont already know, is : c8h18. Oct means 8, get it? : Therefore you have 8 carbons. Another ex: Hexane: = c6h14 (6 carbons) : Now you all know what octane is : Thanks, : CT : Hawaii: Cole : "If you dont like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk" Actually, octane ratings on the pumps are kind of a rough estimate of the about of molecules with eight carbon. The mesurement is still being prefected, and made more easy to do as we speek. I don't believe that C8H18 is the only "octane" that gets mesured. It's possable a few C8H16's get mesured.... But it is generally a mesurement of C8 with lots of H's C = carbon H = hydrogen mixed with O2 from the air (oxygen) you get: CO2 (carbon dioxide) and H2O (water) and other byproducts. the lower the C number (eg C5H12) the faster and hotter it burns, the higher the C number (eg C10H22) the slower it burns. Ethanol additive doesn't really increase the "octane" Ethanol is really a C2, not a C8. But since it burns faster, it shifts the average C number down. But it's a diffrent chemical, because it is an ALCHOL and not a HYDROCARBON. They both burn the well though. Alchols just add an Oxygen molecule in the mix. methane is CH4 Methanol is CH3OH still one carbon and four hydrogens total, just an oxygen thrown in. Hope I managed to intrest any "McGyver" types who read about pushing the limits of cars to consider taking a class in Chemistry. It has more practical uses than you can amagine! :) -- n, Robert W Current, Grad Student _/ | _ Department of Chemistry /' `'/ University of North Dakota <~ .' NRA, SASS, VHA _/ | _/ `.`. _______/ ' \__ | |______ ##################_/ (|___/ /__\ \ \ \___.######################## #################/ \___.'\_______)\_|_| \######################## ################|\ -----\################## ################| \____________________________________/|################## ###############/ | |##################

writes: >>: That story is hiliarous!! I loved it. One other thing you might add >>: to your bag of outstanding rental car tricks is to put it in reverse, >>: slam the accelerator home till you get up to about 30 or 40 mph and >>: then drop her in drive and slam it home again. >> There's a better way. Once you get rolling in reverse, pause in neutral >>with the throttle wide open, engine on the rev limiter. Then and only >>then is it appropriate to select first gear. Hope this helps. >> Henry >Thanks for the rental car tip Henry, I think it will help. Nice to >see some fun guys around here. I heard that this is fun also! put drivers seat all the way back and and get that rent-a-mobile up to about 110-120mph....disconnect the seat belt.......and hit a big-assed oak tree straight on.......***in' hilarious!!!

Lloyd, there is a book written on the subject. It is about urban myths. They have replaced the myths of antiquity. They include such notables as the "woman/man who put their dog/cat in the dryer/microwave, the 200 mph carb (I don't know what is being said now that carbs are not being used anymore, anyway that one always did ignore the laws of thermodynamics), and others. When those get debunked, then new ones are invented. Like the one about "someone" making lots of money using the internet chain letter (other than the orinators (first 5 names) and other pyramid schemes. Oh well, it keeps people occupied and there are worse things.

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>: I was told that the patent on R-12 was about to expire so the patent >: holder said it was no longer any good so now they can sell the new stuff >: with a new patent. >: Don't know if it is true but it came from a non-partial mechanic who had >: no axe to grind. As for the EPA, I am sure they can be influenced >Not true. Many companies have made R12. The EPA has approved several >substitutes. Your mechanic is ignorant. >Why do these myths about conspiraces keep raising their heads? Do people >have some need to believe somebody's trying to control their lives?

Randy, I would treat anything I read in Time with at least one grain of salt, maybe 2. Note the words "estimate." I don't think much measurement of what Mt P put into the ozone layer was easily measurable. Course that is just my "think" and probably not right either. Anyhow as you said, an interesting conversation.

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>Just butting in to this interesting conversation... >A point I haven't seen brought up that I read in "Time" and another magazine whose >name eludes me is: Cfc's destroy ozone, most scientists will agree, the question is >how much damage are humans really responsable for. When Mount Pinatubo (spelling) >exploded the estimate was that it threw out more ozone destroying chemicals in its >multiple eruptions than humans have expelled in 500 YEARS or more. Kinda makes you >wonder how much good banning cfc's will do. >note...these numbers aren't exact (hence no quote marks) but this is the jist of >what I read twice. I will endeaver to find the exact wording. >Randy Simcox >> But the vast majority of the scientific community has accepted the >> CFC-ozone link, because there's a ton of evidence to support it and none >> to refute it. >> : Not so. That vast majority only believe it harms the ozone so they will >> : get more cash from the US government to stury how to "fix" the problem. >> : The money these guys get is very substantial andif I was being handed over >> : that kind of cash i would tell you that the moon was made of green cheese. >> Uhh, no. One molecule of chloroflourocarbon (any type) can destroy >> like fifty thousand molecules of ozone. Granted, the government says some >> types of things expel far more dangers than they actually do, CFC's still >> kill ozone.

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> >Know what a little bird told me? If you put synthetic oil in your a/c and > >solder in a bigger orifice tube, you can run 134a in an r-12 system. > >Cost: about six bucks and an hour. > > Kev > >-- >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Kevin Mather > >POD Engineering Dept. >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Possibly true, with one MAJOR exception. You sure better purge the old system > of all CFCs and the old oil first! Mixed with R134a (as I understand it), you > got corrosion problems. Also (minor if you don't mind constant topping off of > the system) is that the hoses for R-12 are too porous for R134a. > Using the same heat exchanger, you will find a slight decrease in efficiency, > also. > MY theory for global warming is that it is not the CFCs we have pumped into > the atmosphere with our air conditioners, IT IS THE HEAT!

If a little bird said you can put R-134 in an R-12 by following that procedure it certainly had a "Bird Brain." R-134 will penetrate the hoses made for R-12. Plus the dryer must be changed to remove any of the collected carrier oil for R-12 and the compressor has to be cleared of all R-12 carrier oil. R-134 requires a completely different oil that is totally incompatible with that used with R-12. Conversion is a great idea if for no other reason than to get away from expensive re-charging, but if its done it must be done right, otherwise all the R-134 will be gone in a matter of hours or you will find yourself replacing a compressor.

It does if you drink enough of it. Janice Chung Miss Bullshit USA _/ -/ O\___/~ \_ Honourary Brit #001 Newy Ork City / / ___\___ \ __ __ / \ \ / \ +-, ( )( ) 1997 Suzuki GSX-R1100 / /\\E/\\_ //\ \ | ]=|-- --| 1995 Harley Davidson \_/ / /_/- \-//--\ \_ +-' +------+ FLSTF Fat Boy | /| /\____ ___ \ | \ /\ 1986 Suzuki GSX-R7/11 | / | / || \ |\ | / \ Gone but not || || || || || / \ forgotten"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

Where do you get all the money for this car renting? Do you ever worry that your name will get forwarded by someone to several of the major rental car companies? Why did you start this thread? What kind of idiot are you? Didn't you mother teach you any manners? Why don't you figure out how to abuse your computer? Why don't you post somewhere else? Why don't you take a vacation where there is no communication with other humans? Lets see, did I leave anything out?

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> I didnt say I wanted to keep the car, for more than a day!! its a >rental car and the more I tear it up the better!!! I just want to take >it back semi-running so they rent it to a couple more people before >complete failure so they dont know where to lay the blame.... >and your right I love to waste new rental cars!! >-- >Stop =-POLICE-= ***. > E-Mail > Your comments always welcome

what an ***

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>Where do you get all the money for this car renting? Do you ever >worry that your name will get forwarded by someone to several of the >major rental car companies? Why did you start this thread? What kind >of idiot are you? Didn't you mother teach you any manners? Why don't >you figure out how to abuse your computer? Why don't you post >somewhere else? Why don't you take a vacation where there is no >communication with other humans? Lets see, did I leave anything out? >> I didnt say I wanted to keep the car, for more than a day!! its a >>rental car and the more I tear it up the better!!! I just want to take >>it back semi-running so they rent it to a couple more people before >>complete failure so they dont know where to lay the blame.... >>and your right I love to waste new rental cars!! >>-- >>Stop =-POLICE-= ***. >> E-Mail >> Your comments always welcome

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>Where do you get all the money for this car renting? Do you ever >worry that your name will get forwarded by someone to several of the >major rental car companies? Why did you start this thread? What kind >of idiot are you? Didn't you mother teach you any manners? Why don't >you figure out how to abuse your computer? Why don't you post >somewhere else? Why don't you take a vacation where there is no >communication with other humans? Lets see, did I leave anything out? >> I didnt say I wanted to keep the car, for more than a day!! its a >>rental car and the more I tear it up the better!!! I just want to take >>it back semi-running so they rent it to a couple more people before >>complete failure so they dont know where to lay the blame.... >>and your right I love to waste new rental cars!!

Yes, and then the rental car companies have to replace the cars more often, which leads to higher rates. I sure hope there aren't any morons like you all across the country. Kyle

* : I was told that the patent on R-12 was about to expire so the patent * : holder said it was no longer any good so now they can sell the new stuff * : with a new patent. * : Don't know if it is true but it came from a non-partial mechanic who had * : no axe to grind. As for the EPA, I am sure they can be influenced * * Not true. Many companies have made R12. The EPA has approved several * substitutes. Your mechanic is ignorant. * * Why do these myths about conspiraces keep raising their heads? Do people * have some need to believe somebody's trying to control their lives? While I have no information on the reasons, the EPA certainly _is_ trying to control their lives---at least the part of their lives that deals with their cars' air conditioning systems. --

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> : (Lloyd R. Parker) writes: > : > : >But the vast majority of the scientific community has accepted the > : >CFC-ozone link, because there's a ton of evidence to support it and none > : >to refute it. > : > > : > > : > : Not so. That vast majority only believe it harms the ozone so they will > : get more cash from the US government to stury how to "fix" the problem. > : The money these guys get is very substantial andif I was being handed over > : that kind of cash i would tell you that the moon was made of green cheese. > : > : > : Gene > No, you are as wrong as the flat-earthers. CFC has been shown, by > overwhelming evidence and an understanding of the chemistry, to destroy > the ozone layer. Maybe you should get some FACTS before spouting off. > Try taking a SCIENCE course.

Definition of ozone: * * * ozone (ozon) noun 1. A blue gaseous allotrope of oxygen, O3, formed naturally from diatomic oxygen by electric discharge or exposure to ultraviolet radiation. It is an unstable, powerfully bleaching, poisonous oxidizing agent with a pungent, irritating odor, used to deodorize air, purify water, treat industrial wastes and as a bleach. * * * Let's see if I get this straight. O2 gains energy from UV and splits into two atoms of O. A single O atom combines with an existing O2 molecule and become part of a new O3 molecule (ozone). If I am correct, it seems that ozone does not absorb UV, oxygen does! Ozone is only a product of that reaction. Could it be that this is what absorbs the UV energy instead of some type of ozone eclipse effect as we are led to believe? I can agree that ozone probably does play a part in the UV "shielding" effect of the atmosphere, especially if UV COMBINED with chlorine really does cause a breakdown of ozone molecules. Would this also absorb UV energy and result in the same "blocking" effect that splits O2 molecule? Looking further, assuming more UV does get through the "ozone layer" as a result of the Cl theory, wouldn't oxygen below the established boundaries of the "ozone layer" also absorb UV radiation, resulting in ozone creation at lower altitudes, essentially creating a thicker "ozone layer"? BTW, is it true that atmospheric ozone levels increase near the earth's surface in the summer? I'm not a scientist, physicist or a chemist so don't flame me for being "ignorant" because I am ignorant. I am as ignorant on the subject as anyone but I see some questions here that never seem to make it into discussions on this matter. All I am after is answers and/or corrections. I hope anyone who has done the research will jump in and clarify the issue for us. The CFC ban has and will cost us a significant sum of money. There alot of tax payers out here that have been told essentially; "Your air conditioning repair bill has gone through the roof because we don't want you to get skin cancer from the ozone holes we found above the polar regions". If enough arguable environmental theories lead to an even higher cost of living with little or no percieved benefit, tax payers may end up voting for politicians that might go too far in the other direction. I feel we have a right to a detailed, accurate and complete explanation of the theory(s) that inspired the ban. Dan ---------------------------------------------------------------- The skeptic does not mean him who doubts, but him who investigates or researches, as opposed to him who asserts and thinks that he has found. Miguel de Unamuno

: Who pays for your car abuse? i'm sure you're going to tell us... : We do. "we?" who are you callin' "we?" i don't rent (cough, hack, ptooie) cages. however, anyone who does, deserves what they get. : Thanks. anytime. gears, ye wilde ryder -- "E Pluribus Unix" | 82 v45 magna "elliot" JHLO#0002 Support the RKBA "I have no heart to lie, I can't pretend a stranger is a long awaited friend."

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>: Dontcha think the bio-heat of powering the airco pump would exceed the >: cooling effect? >: Don't believe the human body is a very efficient engine....;-)) > Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. I was joking about the idea >of a motorbike with an airconditioning system feeding cooled air to a >spacesuited rider. Maybe we are misunderst - Oh, did you think I meant >a pedal cycle ? Ah. Sorry, I was thinking of a BMW RS100 poster a >colleague had with a rider in a full white suit and helmet, I always >thought it was an attempt to look like "Apollo" styling. > Cheers > David

You mean one of those Air Conditioned Space Suit Helmets that they wear so's thier faces don't melt and start em to looking like McGruff the crime dog? :-) Steve +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | All the worlds a stage, | ("'-''-/").___..--''"'-._ | | and there's a comedy playing. | '6_ 6 ) '_. ( ).'-.__.') | | May as well enjoy the show. | (_Y_.) ._ ) '._ '. ''-..-' | | | _..'--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' | +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Go Dale Earnhardt #3 | Go Rusty Wallace #2 | +-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Split_S on IRC Steve_Sarlls on Hawaii sp-s on Warbirds | +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+

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> Oops sorry, just noticed the multiple news groups at the top. > Appologies to all those not in rec.autos.simulators please > feel free to carry on discussing this topic. We don't care if > someone who works for a rental company reads these newsgroups. > All I insist is that you keep this stuff out of > rec.autos.simulators, I'm sure I'm not the only 1 who doesn't > want his stuff there.

rec.motorcycles shares your general opinion, I think. ============================================================================== CIMC #1 "The only way I'll stop riding 1976 Kawasaki KZ750 B1 twin (Betty) is if I stop breathing." http://cns.networkamerica.com/~espresso ==============================================================================

: > : > To summarize: : I have a few questions. : 1. What created(s) the "ozone layer"? Solar radiation. : 2. If UV is needed to create these "Cl free radicals" why are the "ozone : holes" always over the poles (usually the pole in its winter phase) and not : over the equator where direct sunlight would seem to have a much stronger : effect? The scavenging of ozone only takes place efficiently when Cl radicals can stick themselves on the right kind of ice particles, which depends on particular meterological circumstances. : 3. Why is the "ozone layer" now "healing" even though the CFC ban has not : been effect long enough to make any difference? It has been long enough to make a difference and the 'healing' is very small. : 4. Does the level of solar activity have any effect on the "ozone layer"? Yes. : > All the world's industrialized nations wouldn't have agreed to the ban on : > CFCs if the scientific evidence wasn't overwhelming. : I followed one of the EPA links that someone posted and I saw no scientific : proof to back up the "hole" theory. The "data" was oversimplistic and was : as detailed as the claim "stuff causes cancer because it is bad for you". : It may be true but I refuse to take the words of bureauocrats as fact, : even if backed by scientists. Why? It is fact. : If anyone knows where I can access raw scientific data on this subject via : the net, please let me know. Summations mean little to me if the data is : not accessible. I'm willing to learn but I would like to see all the : "facts" before I buy into a theory. I'd ask somebody at NASA. Better yet, call up a good university and talk to some people whoare experts in atmospheric scientist. : BTW, I am interested in seeing this discussion continue but I think it may : be needlessly cluttering up a few extra NGs. If anyone has a suggestion as : to where to take it, I will follow. I am posting from rec.autos.simulators : and I think some of these guys may be getting tired of this thread. : Dan -- Oak Ridge National Laboratory/University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN USA/ *NO MASS EMAIL SPAM* It's an abuse of Federal Government computer resources and an affront to common civility. On account of egregiously vile spamation, my software terminates all email from "interramp.com" and "cris.com" without human intervention.

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> (Anthony Siino) writes: > >So the big question is that has anybody used these substitutes in a > car > >that requires freon? Are they available at your local auto parts > store? > >Anthony > Pep Boys already has a substitute for R134a, but not freon yet. I will > keep you posted.

I know of three replacements for R-12 and I have posted a FAQ on the one that I know the most about, it is called HOT-SHOT-A, and is located at http://aircondition.com/hotshot

7: Let's see if I get this straight. O2 gains energy from UV and splits : into two atoms of O. A single O atom combines with an existing O2 : molecule and become part of a new O3 molecule (ozone). If I am correct, : it seems that ozone does not absorb UV, oxygen does! Ozone is only a : product of that reaction. Could it be that this is what absorbs the UV : energy instead of some type of ozone eclipse effect as we are led to : believe? : Half right. The formation of O3 from O2 absorbs a portion of the uv spectrum. Then O3 absorbs a photon of uv radiation and breaks back down into O2 and O. This absorbs from a different portion of the uv spectrum. These 2 processes are naturally in balance, so the amount of O3 stays constant. When you provide a second mechanism for breaking O3 down, such as Cl does, you destroy O3 faster than it is produced. : I can agree that ozone probably does play a part in the UV "shielding" : effect of the atmosphere, especially if UV COMBINED with chlorine really : does cause a breakdown of ozone molecules. Would this also absorb UV : energy and result in the same "blocking" effect that splits O2 molecule? The first time a Cl is split off, yes. The problem is, the Cl keeps being regenerated in the reaction and so one Cl atom from one CFC molecule can destroy thousands of O3 molecules. : : Looking further, assuming more UV does get through the "ozone layer" : as a result of the Cl theory, wouldn't oxygen below the established : boundaries of the "ozone layer" also absorb UV radiation, resulting in : ozone creation at lower altitudes, essentially creating a thicker "ozone : layer"? No. As you get to lower atmosphere, there are a lot more substances that will react with O3 to break it down, or with O atoms so they don't form O3. : : BTW, is it true that atmospheric ozone levels increase near the earth's : surface in the summer? Different altogether. Nitrogen oxide emissions from combustion combine with O2 at ground level to make O3. It is a pollutant here since it causes respiratory problems.

> I DO find myself questioning the recent "scientific" evidence that the Ozone > Layer is already healing itself due to the ban on CFCs (Which haven't even > been fully implemented, as yet). As you should since no one who actually understands the situation would write that the ozone layer is already healing itself. It's not. In fact, ozone depletion is expected to worsen for the next few years, and *then* begin a 40+ year recovery. What *has* been measured is an actual decrease in the concentration of one ozone-depleter, a solvent called methyl chloroform. In addition, there's been a slowing in the increase in CFC-11 and CFC-12 concentrations. Not a decrease, but a slowing in the increase. And these results are *directly* attributable to strong actions taken under the Montreal Protocol. Keep in mind that this wasn't a sudden cut from full-bore production to zip. It was a phaseout. The total production allowed in 1994 and 1995 was only 25% of that in 1986. You can read all about the phaseout in our fact sheet, at <URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/phaseout/accfact.html> And, in fact, since the phaseout began in 1989, the US has never made the amount it was allowed under the Protocol. So the effects we're seeing now on ozone-depleting substance concentrations are the result of reduced production over the last 7 years. The reason it will take 40-50 years for a recovery is that CFC-12 has a lifetime of over 100 years. Other ozone-depleters live even longer. You can read all about the science of ozone depletion on our web site, too, at <URL:http://www.epa.gov/science/> And I suppose I need to keep reiterating the address for our fact sheet that lists several substitutes for CFC-12 in auto AC: <URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/snap/macssubs.html> since several people still don't believe we're listing substitutes. Jeffrey Levy USEPA

> I was told that the patent on R-12 was about to expire so the patent > holder said it was no longer any good so now they can sell the new stuff > with a new patent. > Don't know if it is true but it came from a non-partial mechanic who had > no axe to grind. As for the EPA, I am sure they can be influenced This old myth *again*?!?!? Have your trusty mechanic go to the library and look up basic patent law. What he'll find is that they expire after 17 years. Next, have him look up when CFC-12 was invented. He'll find it was in the 1930s. I leave as an exercise for the reader the number of decades ago that the patent expired. At least 5 different companies made CFC-12. When your mechanic or you feel like going to the library after the research suggested above, next go search for articles from the mid-1980s. I think you'll be surprised at the vehemence with which companies like DuPont argued against any link between CFCs and ozone depletion. People who claim this is a patent scam are missing some very basic knowledge. Jeffrey Levy USEPA

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> Let's see if I get this straight. O2 gains energy from UV and splits > into two atoms of O. A single O atom combines with an existing O2 > molecule and become part of a new O3 molecule (ozone). If I am correct, > it seems that ozone does not absorb UV, oxygen does! Ozone is only a > product of that reaction. Could it be that this is what absorbs the UV > energy instead of some type of ozone eclipse effect as we are led to > believe?

Actually, both oxygen and ozone absorb UV. Here's the tricky part: there are three bands of UV, UV-A, UV-B, and UV-C defined according to wavelength. Oxygen absorbs UV-C very well, and it's this highest-energy band that breaks oxygen molecules up to release single atoms to combine with other oxygen molecules to form ozone. Although UV-C is *extremely* harmful, it is unlikely UV-C levels will rise because normal oxygen (O2) absorbs it so well. Ozone absorbs the middle band, UV-B. It is this radiation that we're worried about. When ozone absorbs UV-B, it breaks down into a normal oxygen molecule and a single oxygen atom. This is the absorption effect that protects life on Earth from UV-B. There's still some that always gets through, but ozone depletion will increase this level. So it's not a mysterious "ozone eclipse." It's a different absorption spectrum entirely. By the way, there is an excellent discussion of all this in the ozone depletion FAQ. There are several links to this FAQ from our science page: <URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/science> at the bottom. I haven't memorized the FAQ URL, sorry. Under normal circumstances, the ozone destruction caused by UV-B balances ozone production caused by UV-C, and ozone levels stay normal. However, with high chlorine concentrations, *unnatural* reactions occur that rapidly destroy ozone. You can read about this on our ozone science page, above. Specifically, read about the ozone depletion process. Again, this occurs to some extent, but the problem, as explained above, is that oxygen and ozone absorb different wavelengths of UV. UV-C doesn't leak through the ozone layer, because it's so strongly absorbed by normal oxygen. So ozone levels don't really rise a lot below the ozone layer. See the ozone FAQ for more info. Read the ozone FAQ for info about stratospheric ozone seasonal fluctuations. However, ozone near the Earth's surface (in the troposphere) may well increase in summer because of increased sunlight, which plays a role in surface ozone production, also known as smog. But this doesn't help much. Tropospheric ozone levels that set off health alerts are only a tiny fraction of normal stratospheric ozone levels. You can read our fact sheet called "Ozone: Good Up High, Bad Nearby" from our science page on the web. Grand! Read all the info I've suggested above. Your questions are perfectly reasonable, and I never have any problems with reasonable queries. The point is simply that they've been answered, and answered extremely solidly, with lots of experimental and observational evidence. The science of ozone depletion is based on hundreds of studies, thousands of measurements, and the combined work of hundreds of researchers. Couldn't agree more that your deserve a clear explanation. See above for same. Also, you can read the executive summary from the 1994 Scientific Assessment of Ozone Depletion at a link from our science page. You can also order a free copy of that and any other fact sheet from our hotline, at 800-296-1996. The 1994 Assessment represents the consensus conclusions of nearly 300 atmospheric researchers from around the world. You should also know that the current estimates for the cost of the phaseout are in the 100 billion dollar range. The estimated health benefits are in the multi-trillion dollar range. For those of you keeping score, it's a ratio of at least 10-1 of benefits to costs. This was all documented in a very long regulatory impact analysis done to support the phaseout. If you really want to read it (it's several hundred pages long), you can visit our Air Docket, in DC. Write me email and I'll tell you the docket number. But trust me, you don't want to read this thing! One final note: ozone depletion has now been measured nearly worldwide. Over the US, ozone levels have fallen about 10% in winter and 5% in summer. See <URL:http://www.epa.gov/ozone/science/glob_dep.html> for more info. Jeffrey Levy USEPA One last

>>Where do you get all the money for this car renting? Do you ever >>worry that your name will get forwarded by someone to several of the >>major rental car companies? Why did you start this thread? What kind >>of idiot are you? Didn't you mother teach you any manners? Why don't >>you figure out how to abuse your computer? Why don't you post >>somewhere else? Why don't you take a vacation where there is no >>communication with other humans? Lets see, did I leave anything out? >>> I didnt say I wanted to keep the car, for more than a day!! its a >>>rental car and the more I tear it up the better!!! I just want to take >>>it back semi-running so they rent it to a couple more people before >>>complete failure so they dont know where to lay the blame.... >>>and your right I love to waste new rental cars!! > Yes, and then the rental car companies have to replace the cars more >often, which leads to higher rates. I sure hope there aren't any >morons like you all across the country. >Kyle Oh there are , trust me there are !!! MORONS just like me all over the country do you think I dreamed up this activity? No someone taught it to me , and I hear the Travellers do this all the time. -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

Herez another one!! A friend of mine needed a new EFI housing on his 5.0 mustang his was split at the plenum where it meets the MAF housing .. a used one from the wrecking yard was 200 bux a new one from ford was over 500 but for $39.95 he rented a mustang from AVIS and changed his with the one on the rental car and WALLAH no one was the wiser!!! Has anyone ever done that? when a part s more than say 40 bux just rent the like car and swap em out?? -- Stop =-POLICE-= ***. E-Mail Your comments always welcome

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> Some idiot is setting at the light > > >with > > >>a Lincold Continental. I thought the brakes had over heated in the > > >rear at > > >>first. Maybe they had, but they had because the guy was power braking > > >the > > >>thing at wideopen. The rear wheels were spinning so fast, they weren't > > >even > > >>squalling. Left dual marks all the way across the intersection. Guy > > >looked > > >>to be in his mid thirties to 40's. You could see him laughing and > > >grinning > > >>like a idiot to his riding partner. He sat there for at least 45 to 50 > > >>seconds like that. Had to be pretty tough on the whole driveline. I > > >respect > > >>teh 4.6L after that, anything that can take that kind of abuse that > > >long > > >>is pretty tough. > > Except that the Continental is front wheel drive.... > > -- > > Jordan Blessing L1 Master Tech > When did the Continental go to front wheel drive? I had a Continental > company car several years ago (what a BOAT!) and it was still a > rear-wheel drive car. > -- > Jerry Bransford > PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. > The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

the new continentals are based offf of the taurus line, which means it is a front wheel drive 3.8L v6. the only rear wheel drive licolns are the towncar and mark 8. the continental has been front wheel drive at least since 1989

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> >: I was told that the patent on R-12 was about to expire so the patent > >: holder said it was no longer any good so now they can sell the new stuff > >: with a new patent. > >: Don't know if it is true but it came from a non-partial mechanic who had > >: no axe to grind. As for the EPA, I am sure they can be influenced > >Not true. Many companies have made R12. The EPA has approved several > >substitutes. Your mechanic is ignorant. > >Why do these myths about conspiraces keep raising their heads? Do people > >have some need to believe somebody's trying to control their lives? > DuPont's patent was about to expire. This would have made R-12 real > cheap, and DuPont needed to market a new product to retain a monopolistic > profit margin. Sure, other companies marketed r-12, but DuPont got their > piece of the action, due to patent rights. > The EPA is in no doubt out to control people's lives and the economy. > Watch what will happen when they restrict the sale of motor oil. You can > bet that they will target that next, citing hazardous waste reasons. They > already want to make backyard wrenching a felonious offense. > New future EPA mandate: > All car owners shall have the gap between the hood and the fenders welded > shut. > -- > Larry

No, Larry, no matter how desperately you want to believe it, patents still expire 17 years after they're granted. Since CFCs were invented in the 1930s, the patent was LONG expired. Even you could have made them. Where does this myth come from, anyway? Who started it? It shows an astonishing lack of knowledge about very basic and easy to check law. Jeffrey Levy USEPA

This is not true. They only have theories to explain what they think is happening. The EPA is the one that pushed for the ban on R-12. Arizon rocks because they are defying the ban and will continue to produce R-12. It was found that farts increase the rate of deterioration of old art work. Are they going to make people take Beano before entering a museum? If you want fact about this (R-12 I mean), talk with any Civil/Environmental engineer. They will gladly give you information about this. All the hype about R-12 comes from the EPA. Stop reading Al Gore's book. It is science fiction.

More *intelligent* feedback from the ignorant >There has been NO hard evidence that CFC's cause any depletion in the ozone layer. The >state of Arizona is right on with defying that ban. They will continue to make it. Good >for them. All that ***I have been reading has been coming from the EPA. Those >panty-waist cissy boys want everyone to drive electric cars. Remember that something has >to generate that electricity. Burn that coal baby! --Mel-- 96 SL2m LtGn/Gr AC CC ABS TC AU PW PL KE T2W NG

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>> Herez another one!! A friend of mine needed a new EFI housing on his >>5.0 mustang his was split at the plenum where it meets the MAF housing >>.. a used one from the wrecking yard was 200 bux a new one from ford >>was over 500 but for $39.95 he rented a mustang from AVIS and changed >>his with the one on the rental car and WALLAH no one was the wiser!!! >Your friend is a thief. and there are places for people like him ....

check out this Url http://www.state.tn.us/correction/bmsp.html this is where i work and i deal with scum everyday just like your friend........you might let him view it also ...........

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>snip< > I'll have to agree with Gene, I work in the scientific community and > there are alot of people that just want the money for their half baked > ideas. Interesting thing about the ozone layer is that ham radio uses > the ozone layer for bouncing signals off. Surprisingly the radio > propagation is dependent on sun spot activity which is virtually nill > right now, but in a few years propagation is supposed to increase > because the sun spots will return. At the same time there are > scientists who say the ozone hole will be reducing by the year 2000 > because of all the steps taken for CFC removal. Makes you wonder! > Bud > omne ignotum pro magnifico

I'll bet that you aren't a ham radio operator. We don't bounce radio signals off the ozone layer. The E-layer, F-Layer, on and on and on, all *ionized* layers of the atmosphere. I've never heard of radio signals being bounced off the ozone layer! -- Dan Meyer / N00KFB

: : Contains a flammable blend of hydrocarbons.... now there's a reason : to ban something for use in a car. Has anyone checked out what's in : gasoline? 1. Count how many times the ac condensor is ruptured in a collision vs how many times a gas line is ruptured. And there's now a gov't standard for gas leakage in an accident. 2. Can you prove the hoses, fittings, etc., in the ac system won't be attacked or penetrated by substances they weren't designed for? 3. Air that blows into the passenger comp. runs over the ac lines. Not so for the gas lines. If you design and engineer a system for a flammable mixture, I could see using it. But not sticking such a mixture into an existing system.

: : : I'll have to agree with Gene, I work in the scientific community and : there are alot of people that just want the money for their half baked : ideas. Interesting thing about the ozone layer is that ham radio uses : the ozone layer for bouncing signals off. Surprisingly the radio : propagation is dependent on sun spot activity which is virtually nill : right now, but in a few years propagation is supposed to increase : because the sun spots will return. At the same time there are : scientists who say the ozone hole will be reducing by the year 2000 : because of all the steps taken for CFC removal. Makes you wonder! : Wrong. Ham radio signals bounce off the ionosphere, not the ozone layer. Ozone is transparent to radio waves. And the crackpots are those still claiming CFCs don't destroy the ozone, in spite of overwhelming hard data, accepted theories, and a Nobel Prize to the originators.

: > : > But it HAS been proven CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Have you read ANY : > scientific articles? Where does your pseudoinformation come from? And it : > was an international treaty, signed by President Bush and ratified by the : > Senate, that's banned R12. Not the EPA. : : This is not true. They only have theories to explain what they think is : happening. The EPA is the one that pushed for the ban on R-12. Arizon rocks : because they are defying the ban and will continue to produce R-12. 1. A theory is the accepted scientific explanation for something. It is NOT just somebody's idea or guess. You might learn the meaning of terms before you use them. The theory about CFCs destroying the ozone layer is accepted by the scientific community, by the leaders of the western nations, by the Nobel Prize committee, etc. And because: 2. There is overwhelming hard data supporting this theory. Data = facts. Something you wouldn't know anything about. : : If you want fact about this (R-12 I mean), talk with any Civil/Environmental : engineer. They will gladly give you information about this. All the hype about : R-12 comes from the EPA. Stop reading Al Gore's book. It is science fiction. What does an engineer know about chemistry or the stratosphere? And it's your unscientific lunacies that are sci-fi. Have you ever even opened a scientific journal?

: There has been NO hard evidence that CFC's cause any depletion in the ozone layer. The : state of Arizona is right on with defying that ban. They will continue to make it. Good : for them. All that ***I have been reading has been coming from the EPA. Those : panty-waist cissy boys want everyone to drive electric cars. Remember that something has : to generate that electricity. Burn that coal baby! As wrong and ignorant as you can be. Read any scientific articles? Doubt it. Where does your info come from, comic books? There is overwhelming evidence CFCs destroy the ozone layer. You are either lying or deliberately remaining ignorant. Which is it?

But it HAS been proven CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Have you read ANY scientist, supposedly, you should know that. It is all. you jump up and down saying I have no basis, I want to say, neither do you. I could be a literature professor and have basic chemistry knowledge. Your claim here has no basis, Lloyd. Also, if you're such the chemistry guru, maybe you could clear up a questin for me. If the CFC molecule is so much heavier than air, how does it get 30 miles up to create an ozone hole? How come supporters of the 'ozone hole' theory neglect to say that there is an ozone hole at each of the poles every winter due to lack of sunlight? How come they also neglect to tell us that those holes, in only one of the many ozone layers by the way, closes up every summer when the sunlight returns? So many questions, so few answers. Until these can be answered with a positive, universally accepted, hard data fact, do us all a favor, and keep your theories to yourself. Thank you. -- Neil Emiro 1986 Shelby GLHS #053 1987 Shelby CSX #439 1987 Shelby z 1988 Dodge Omni America

> the new continentals are based offf of the taurus line, which means it > is a front wheel drive 3.8L v6. You are partially right. The new continentals are FWD. But it has 4.6L 32valve V8 which you can't get it from a Taurus. Only Mark 8, Continental, and Mustang Cobra get this powerful engin.

Boy if everyone in the newgroup were ham operators maybe there wouldn't be so many stupid questions.

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>> Some idiot is setting at the light >> > >with >> > >>a Lincold Continental. I thought the brakes had over heated in the >> > >rear at >> > >>first. Maybe they had, but they had because the guy was power braking >> > >the >> > >>thing at wideopen. The rear wheels were spinning so fast, they weren't >> > >even >> > >>squalling. Left dual marks all the way across the intersection. Guy >> > >looked >> > >>to be in his mid thirties to 40's. You could see him laughing and >> > >grinning >> > >>like a idiot to his riding partner. He sat there for at least 45 to 50 >> > >>seconds like that. Had to be pretty tough on the whole driveline. I >> > >respect >> > >>teh 4.6L after that, anything that can take that kind of abuse that >> > >long >> > >>is pretty tough. >> > Except that the Continental is front wheel drive.... >> > -- >> > Jordan Blessing L1 Master Tech >> When did the Continental go to front wheel drive? I had a Continental >> company car several years ago (what a BOAT!) and it was still a >> rear-wheel drive car. >> -- >> Jerry Bransford >> PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. >> The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything! >the new continentals are based offf of the taurus line, which means it >is a front wheel drive 3.8L v6. the only rear wheel drive licolns are >the towncar and mark 8. the continental has been front wheel drive at >least since 1989

It was the Land yacht Town Car then. I used to change the oil in cars, and the one I saw was rear wheel drive. I used Continental, as I thought you could still call all Lincolns Connies when they were loaded with all the external gaudy stuff. Later, TurboDave David L. Pearce 1984 Laser XE Turbo

>More *intelligent* feedback from the ignorant While CFC may need to be banned, the guy whose intelligence you are commenting on, has made a point. Enviromentalist are bent in the wrong directions. Electric Cars can provide clean and effecient transportation, however, where is all that power going to come from? Just as much coal will have to be burnt to make up for the hydrocarbons that will not be burnt in cars. And they wouldn't dare have us put up any safe and clean nuclear power plants. Just don't want to store that waste. From the collective of literature out there, its seems like there are many safe methods of waste storage, but everyone is so afraid of putting it in their states. Waste from current plants that burn oil are just as bad. The damage they cause is just as permamanent. Not to mention, Waste turn around on a reactor is ten years. What little comes out could easily be stored. That for me, equates to a whole lot of clean energy. And everyone seems to want to bring up 3 Mile Island when nuclear comes to the forefront. It seems that TMI was not all that big of an accident. Plus the fact that current power plant designs are much safer, and Chernobyl is not even a factor since it was obsolete when built. It was an accident waiting to happen. Later, TurboDave David L. Pearce 1984 Laser XE Turbo

says... >: > >: > But it HAS been proven CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Have you read ANY >: > scientific articles? Where does your pseudoinformation come from? And it >: > was an international treaty, signed by President Bush and ratified by the >: > Senate, that's banned R12. Not the EPA. >: >: This is not true. They only have theories to explain what they think is >: happening. The EPA is the one that pushed for the ban on R-12. Arizon rocks

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>: because they are defying the ban and will continue to produce R-12. >1. A theory is the accepted scientific explanation for something. It is >NOT just somebody's idea or guess. You might learn the meaning of terms >before you use them. The theory about CFCs destroying the ozone layer is >accepted by the scientific community, by the leaders of the western >nations, by the Nobel Prize committee, etc. And because: >2. There is overwhelming hard data supporting this theory. Data = >facts. Something you wouldn't know anything about. >: >: If you want fact about this (R-12 I mean), talk with any

Civil/Environmental chemisty, physics, and the stratosphere than a politician. As for Al Gore's book, to be _science_ fiction, one must first have some science. Gore's book is, purely and simply, a political tome. As for opening a scientific journal, that is the easy part. The hard (and relevant) part is actually reading them and understanding. Also, one must understand that a theory is generally one man's effort to explain what he _thinks_ may be happening over a very narrow range in a manner that is hard to disprove.

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>: > >: > But it HAS been proven CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Have you read ANY >: > scientific articles? Where does your pseudoinformation come from? And it >: > was an international treaty, signed by President Bush and ratified by the >: > Senate, that's banned R12. Not the EPA. >: >: This is not true. They only have theories to explain what they think is >: happening. The EPA is the one that pushed for the ban on R-12. Arizon rocks >: because they are defying the ban and will continue to produce R-12. >1. A theory is the accepted scientific explanation for something. It is >NOT just somebody's idea or guess. You might learn the meaning of terms >before you use them. The theory about CFCs destroying the ozone layer is >accepted by the scientific community, by the leaders of the western >nations, by the Nobel Prize committee, etc. And because: >2. There is overwhelming hard data supporting this theory. Data = >facts. Something you wouldn't know anything about. >: >: If you want fact about this (R-12 I mean), talk with any

Civil/Environmental a politician. You are very quick to flame what is basically a true statement, that Al***writes fiction. While you were quick to denigrate others, you have not presented _your_ credentials. Theories are _not_ necessisarily true. They are simply valid so long as no one can prove them wrong. The _problem_ with this is that the subject under discussion seems to have no one trying to prove it wrong. Rather, those most prominent supporters are spending huge sums of (our) money trying to prove it right! One of the first things ever learned is to try to break down the theory before supporting it.

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>>: >>: Actually, Jeffery... I hear this all the time...and please don't think >I'm >>: picking on you... But ALL of the refrigerants are ozone-safe. I find it >>: amazing that you personally buy into the nonsense about them destroying >the >>: ozone hole. What's even more amazing is that, while it's taken 50 years >of >>: production, and massive releases to damage the ozone they say, supposedly >>: it's already healing - and it's supposed to be due to the new laws. >>Wrong. It's been proven scientifically (a term you don't seem familiar >>with) that CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Gee, some fool could say the >>earth is flat too. Doesn't make it so. You might read up on the science >>of the situation before showing off your right-wing extremist views.

Of course, left wing views are better than right wing views, right? Your statement has some fairly obvious errors. What has actually been proven is that under certain circumstances, CFCs _can_ destroy ozone. It has been _theorized_ that CFCs _may_ contribute to the size of the ozone hole (of course, it has also been theorized that the size of the hole is related to sunspot activity, but that doesn't meet the criteria for the great internationally acclaimed scientist, Algore). Actually, under the Constitution, it could be somewhat simpler than this. The Constitution spells out what the Federal Government can do (which, bye the way is somewhat less than what they are doing in many areas) and gives any remaining powers to the state. In _my_ memory, Arizona is the first state in a long time to exercise those Constitutional powers. While not yet indicted, "Slick Willie can't be far behind".

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>: If we followed the same rules for HIV as we follow for the EPA, we would >: quarantine all HIV Positives. Note the double standare. For the EPA one must >: prove that an item will not cause any harm to the environment (not that it >: does). For HIV, the evidence is held that certain exposures are not dangerous >: because it has not been proven to be dangerous (not that it has not been >: proven NOT to be dangerous). >But it HAS been proven CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Have you read ANY >scientific articles? Where does your pseudoinformation come from? And it >was an international treaty, signed by President Bush and ratified by the >Senate, that's banned R12. Not the EPA.

Let's say this one more time. It has been proven that under certain rigid circumstances, CFCs _can_ destroy ozone. It has been THEORIZED that it destroys the ozone layer. A theory is not proven, it simply has not yet been _disproven_.. Were it _proven_ it would be _law_!

(Lloyd R. Parker) writes:

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>: > >: > >: >: > >: At the same time, I currently don't have a problem with using the new >: > >: refrigerant in my '95 Saturn, and my '66 Mustang doesn't have an A/C, >: > >: so I guess I'm currently in good shape. >: > >: >: > >: I've seen both the media as well as research scientists balloon facts >: > >: in order to get attention (Pons-Fleischmann is a good example), >: > >: > >But cold fusion was never accepted by the scientific community. Ozone >: > >depletion, OTOH, is accepted and again, Rowland et al won a Nobel Prize >: > >for it. >: >: Nope, ozone depletion theory is NOT universally accepted as anything >: more than a theory. >It IS accepted by the vast majority of the scientific community. You >should learn what "theory" means in science -- it is the currently >accepted explanation of something. it does NOT mean a guess. And to >forestall the inevitable, a theory cannot become a law. A law summarizes >data; it doesn't explain. We have the theory of gravity, theory of >evolution, quantum theory, etc. -- all scientifically accepted theories. >The CFC-ozone theory is just as accepted.

You forgot "electron flow theory" and "Conventional current flow theory", both of which explain the conduction of electricity (one explanation the exact opposite of the other). Both are valid when taken within the parameters of the theory and both are plausible explanations of how electrical currents flow. Neither can be proven wrong, which is why both are valid theories, BUT, both _can't_ be correct!

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> >>snip< > >> I'll have to agree with Gene, I work in the scientific community and > >> there are alot of people that just want the money for their half baked > >> ideas. Interesting thing about the ozone layer is that ham radio uses > >> the ozone layer for bouncing signals off. Surprisingly the radio > >> propagation is dependent on sun spot activity which is virtually nill > >> right now, but in a few years propagation is supposed to increase > >> because the sun spots will return. At the same time there are > >> scientists who say the ozone hole will be reducing by the year 2000 > >> because of all the steps taken for CFC removal. Makes you wonder! > >> Bud > >> omne ignotum pro magnifico > >I'll bet that you aren't a ham radio operator. We don't bounce radio > >signals off the ozone layer. The E-layer, F-Layer, on and on and on, > >all *ionized* layers of the atmosphere. > >I've never heard of radio signals being bounced off the ozone layer! > >-- Dan Meyer / N00KFB > Exactly. The ionosphere acts as a refractor for HF frequencies as the 11 > year sunspot cycle affects it. (we will experience band openings on 10 > and 15 meters, and 6 as well in a few years) If you answer ozone layer on > your FCC exam, that would be definitely the wrong answer.

The question is how to make some people believe it. "C'mon, an 11 year cycle? C'mon, affected by sunspots? Yer pullin my leg." Hi hi, gotta be one of the weirdest aspects of Ham Radio. KE6DLT

Ok guys, as an amateur radio type too, I hardly think anyone on this automotive orientented distribution list really cares how radio waves propagate. I suggest we stop this thread now or at least move it over to the ham radio newsgroups where most everyone already knows the subject too thoroughly. -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

A theory is mere conjecture. It is not fact as you would like it to be. Speculation is all the EPA has. The EPA can spout out as many numbers as they want. The fact of the matter is, a CFC molecule is much heavier than oxygen. It can't travel that far. As for engineers: they seem to know a hell of a lot more than you. It is easy to target something that doesn't fight back. R-12 is harmless. R-134a is oil based. That has the potential to do more harm than R-12. If you are so concerned about the environment, stop driving your car. Talking about the evironment is one thing. Doing something is entirely different. Since you are on the computer, you are polluting the environment. Electricity is generated by burning coal. The EPA has many other things it could be doing. R-12 is just another way to stick it to the American people for more cash.

Isn't this guy a schmuck?

Yep!!

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>Isn't this guy a schmuck? >> There has been NO hard evidence that CFC's cause any depletion in the >ozone layer. The >> state of Arizona is right on with defying that ban. They will continue >to make it. Good >> for them. All that ***I have been reading has been coming from the >EPA. Those >> panty-waist cissy boys want everyone to drive electric cars. Remember >that something has >> to generate that electricity. Burn that coal baby!

--Mel--Waving 96 SL2m LtGn/Gr AC CC ABS TC AU PW PL KE T2W NG

: : Theories are _not_ necessisarily true. Correct. But by the time an explanation has been accorded the status of "theory," it has been tested numerous times and not disproven and so is accepted as the correct explanation. : They are simply valid so long as no : one can prove them wrong. The _problem_ with this is that the subject under : discussion seems to have no one trying to prove it wrong. Rather, those most : prominent supporters are spending huge sums of (our) money trying to prove it : right! Wrong. As you just pointed out, you can never prove a theory right. The money spent is on data collection (which is neutral), and all the data collected supports the theory. Not one iota of data tends to disprove it. : : One of the first things ever learned is to try to break down the theory before : supporting it. No, one of the first things learned is collect data and look at it. If it doesn't disprove a theory, it's foolish to say the theory is wrong and even more foolish to cry that the theory hasn't been proven.

Organization: Emory University Distribution: : : Of course, left wing views are better than right wing views, right? Your statement has : some fairly obvious errors. What has actually been proven is that under certain : circumstances, CFCs _can_ destroy ozone. Those circumstances being having ozone, CFCs, and uv light in the stratosphere. : It has been _theorized_ that CFCs : _may_ contribute to the size of the ozone hole (of course, it has also been theorized : that the size of the hole is related to sunspot activity, but that doesn't meet the criteria : for the great internationally acclaimed scientist, Algore). Wrong. We have hard data showing CFCs are responsible for the ozone hole, as well as an accepted theory to explain it. Sure, solar activity increases the rate of the reaction due to more uv light, but blaming the ozone hole on solar activity is like blaming your digestive enzymes for getting fat! : : Actually, under the Constitution, it could be somewhat simpler than this. The : Constitution spells out what the Federal Government can do (which, bye the way is : somewhat less than what they are doing in many areas) and gives any remaining : powers to the state. In _my_ memory, Arizona is the first state in a long time to : exercise those Constitutional powers. Wrong again. First, we have a treaty, and under the Constitution, treaties are given equal weight with the Constitution (which makes them superior to any state law). Secondly, this directly affects interstate commerce.

: A theory is mere conjecture. No it is not. A hypothesis is. A theory is an explanation currently accepted by the scientific community because it has been tested repeatedly and not disproven. Almost any freshman science class will cover this the first day. : It is not fact as you would like it to be. Speculation is : all the EPA has. The EPA can spout out as many numbers as they want. The fact of the : matter is, a CFC molecule is much heavier than oxygen. It can't travel that far. Dumb. We've measured CFCs in the stratosphere. You know nothing about fluids. Why isn't all the CO2 at ground level suffocating us? It's heavier than air. Why isn't all the NaCl at the bottom of the sea? It's heavier than water. : As for : engineers: they seem to know a hell of a lot more than you. It is easy to target : something that doesn't fight back. R-12 is harmless. Not to ozone. : R-134a is oil based. Wrong. Both are. R-12 is CF2Cl2. R134 is C2H2F4. Both are hydrocarbon based. : That has the : potential to do more harm than R-12. To what? This is pure bs. : If you are so concerned about the environment, stop : driving your car. Talking about the evironment is one thing. Doing something is entirely : different. Since you are on the computer, you are polluting the environment. Electricity : is generated by burning coal. The EPA has many other things it could be doing. R-12 is : just another way to stick it to the American people for more cash. Polluting is different from destroying the ozone layer. (Take a science course.)

Would you mind it TERRIBLY if you moved your scientific theory discussion to some non-automotive oriented newsgroup such as alt.science.ozone.wonk or somewhere similar? There's REALLY no need to continue your science theory arguments on this type newsgroup, is there? -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

> But it HAS been proven CFCs destroy the ozone layer. Have you read ANY It has been shown mathematically that CFC's can deplete the ozone layer. What has not been shown is from where they come. bryon -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hired Craig Livingstone. Bryon Lape - currently living somewhere close to 35 57 38 N, 83 55 15 W

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>: >: Theories are _not_ necessisarily true. >Correct. But by the time an explanation has been accorded the status of >"theory," it has been tested numerous times and not disproven and so is >accepted as the correct explanation. >: They are simply valid so long as no >: one can prove them wrong. The _problem_ with this is that the subject

under >: discussion seems to have no one trying to prove it wrong. Rather, those most >: prominent supporters are spending huge sums of (our) money trying to prove it

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>: right! >Wrong. As you just pointed out, you can never prove a theory right. The >money spent is on data collection (which is neutral), and all the data >collected supports the theory. Not one iota of data tends to disprove it. >: >: One of the first things ever learned is to try to break down the theory

before >: supporting it. >No, one of the first things learned is collect data and look at it. If >it doesn't disprove a theory, it's foolish to say the theory is wrong and >even more foolish to cry that the theory hasn't been proven. Of course, the one thing wrong with this is that people are collecting the data. The data collected must meet specific parameters in order to be valid data. Those parameters have been determined by the people collecting the data. In short, statistics never lie; but, liars can take statistics. In order to get the _complete_ truth, one must first be smart (and honest) enough to ask the right questions. As with most poles, the questions asked determine the response (results). The studies done, if directed to proving the theory, will either not be broadcast when they fail or are designed to provide _only_ supporting evidence. This is not scientific! The only problem I have with what this thread has turned into is what does it have to do with legal substitutes for Freon and/or autos?

writes: Thank you I hope they take it to another group.

SNIP And in the interest of harmony or Saturns or something related to cars, this old industrial engineer proposes we drop the whole thread. I promise to *always* snip any follow-up posts if you and Lloyd will stop the Freon debate. Let's debate oil change frequencies or how many Saturn mechanics does it take to change brake rotors or something. :) --Mel--Waving 96 SL2m LtGn/Gr AC CC ABS TC AU PW PL KE T2W NG

>USENET BONEHEAD REPLY FORM (version 78.7) >-- >Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences >Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ >Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick Is that the Eric T. Busch who is famous for his being elected policeman of the NGs? --Mel--Waving 96 SL2m LtGn/Gr AC CC ABS TC AU PW PL KE T2W NG

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> SNIP > >The only problem I have with what this thread has turned into is what does it > >have to do with legal substitutes for Freon and/or autos? > And in the interest of harmony or Saturns or something related to > cars, this old industrial engineer proposes we drop the whole thread. > I promise to *always* snip any follow-up posts if you and Lloyd will > stop the Freon debate. Let's debate oil change frequencies or how > many Saturn mechanics does it take to change brake rotors or > something. :) > It's about time! This discussion stopped being of interest to the vast

majority on these newsgroups a LONG time ago! -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

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>: >: >: I'll have to agree with Gene, I work in the scientific community and >: there are alot of people that just want the money for their half baked >: ideas. Interesting thing about the ozone layer is that ham radio uses >: the ozone layer for bouncing signals off. Surprisingly the radio >: propagation is dependent on sun spot activity which is virtually nill >: right now, but in a few years propagation is supposed to increase >: because the sun spots will return. At the same time there are >: scientists who say the ozone hole will be reducing by the year 2000 >: because of all the steps taken for CFC removal. Makes you wonder! >: >Wrong. Ham radio signals bounce off the ionosphere, not the ozone >layer. Ozone is transparent to radio waves. >And the crackpots are those still claiming CFCs don't destroy the ozone, >in spite of overwhelming hard data, accepted theories, and a Nobel Prize >to the originators.

I'll keep it simple, but you can always research it yourself: 1) CFCs have been found in the ozone layer 2) high energy emissions break down CFCs 3) what goes up also comes down 4) its a good thing for number 3 or volcanic emissions would have killed us all, because one year (don't remember the year) volcanic emissions completely eliminated the ozone layer over the South Pole (It came back, possibly due to the theory that such emissions are rained out of the atmosphere. In my opinion both scenarios are happening) 5) ozone reacts with free Cl from CFCs being broken down 6) the resultant ClO is also broken down an ClO or ozone is re-formed 7) ozone in the ozone layer is not static, but is constantly being broken down and reformed 8) ozone levels have been measured for less than 50 years, and the methods of measuring it have changed within the last ten years 9) If high energy makes it past the ozone layer, the high energy will cause reactions at lower levels in the atmosphere, which cause the energy to be dispersed anyway. Opinions: 1) CFCs may marginally affect the ozone layer, but not nearly to the extent that natural emissions do 2) The CFCs in the atmosphere will be broken down when they enter the ozone layer, where it will be broken into its base elements which will eventually move out of the ozone layer and be rained out of the atmosphere 3) This hasn't been studied globally for nearly long enough or consistently enough to make scientific decisions (studies have been location or spot studies, not comprehensive atmospheric analyses). Study the scientific method if you disagree. 4) Somebody jumped the gun on banning CFCs, although I definitely believe in recycling and conservation 5) Don't believe everything you read (including my stuff; go research it yourself. The rags don't count. I heard that Bob's racing forum said that CFCs are bad for the environment around the eyes because the cold blast can freeze the suckers right out, and was taken out of context and printed in the New York Times as 'informed sources reveal that CFCs are harmful to the environment'. BTW the preceding sentence was a story, an example. It was not true. Read professional journals and realize you are getting biased opinions even then. Read enough and you can form an intelligent opinion, not regurgitate headlines. This is not meant to be a slam on anyone.) 6) global warming or cooling as a result of CFCs is a myth. I believe massive scale deforestation without replanting (China, the Amazon, etc) would be a more likely culprit One journal I read really slammed CFC vs. ozone research because grants were only being issued for studies on 'how CFCs contribute to the depletion of the ozone layer'. One sided study is predujicial. -- my opinions are mine and not necessarily those of my employer --

Jerry, you have said this enough to become a nuisance. If you don't want to read or be reminded of it then kill the thread. While this may not be the proper forum, there is obviously interest in it, or it wouldn't have over a 100 responses/rebuttals/insults (chose one).

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> >Would you mind it TERRIBLY if you moved your scientific theory > >discussion to some non-automotive oriented newsgroup such as > >alt.science.ozone.wonk or somewhere similar? There's REALLY no need to > >continue your science theory arguments on this type newsgroup, is there? > >-- > >Jerry Bransford > >PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. > >The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything! > Jerry, you have said this enough to become a nuisance. If you don't want to > read or be reminded of it then kill the thread. While this may not be the > proper forum, there is obviously interest in it, or it wouldn't have over a > 100 responses/rebuttals/insults (chose one).

Yes, and you are obviously not interested in whether or not what you want to discuss relates to the newsgroup's preferred subject matter. And, the VAST majority of postings have been yours, you are the one who is keeping it alive with your continued arguments. CONTINUED ozone depletion discussion is simply not automotive related and it shouldn't be here. Simple as that. If you want to argue scientific ozone theory, take it where it is appropriate or take it private. Perhaps we should simply forget about keeping subjects relative to the newsgroup's name?? You truly are clueless if you can't understand that a long ongoing and drawn-out discussion of a non-related subject matter is not polite to others or in the best interest of the newsgroups you insist on copying your posts to. Grow up and stop your pointless drawn-out whining about who's right on ozone theory. -- Jerry Bransford PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

: >The CFC-ozone theory is just as accepted. : You forgot "electron flow theory" and "Conventional current flow theory", both of : which explain the conduction of electricity (one explanation the exact opposite of the : other). Both are valid when taken within the parameters of the theory and both are : plausible explanations of how electrical currents flow. Neither can be proven wrong, : which is why both are valid theories, BUT, both _can't_ be correct! Of course one can be proven right and the other wrong; it's been done aeons ago in the dawn of solid state physics. Electrons move quickly in conductors and scatter off impurities. -- Oak Ridge National Laboratory/University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN USA/ *NO MASS EMAIL SPAM* It's an abuse of Federal Government computer resources and an affront to common civility. On account of egregiously vile spamation, my software terminates all email from "interramp.com" and "cris.com" without human intervention.

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>>snip< >> I'll have to agree with Gene, I work in the scientific community and >> there are alot of people that just want the money for their half baked >> ideas. Interesting thing about the ozone layer is that ham radio uses >> the ozone layer for bouncing signals off. Surprisingly the radio >> propagation is dependent on sun spot activity which is virtually nill >> right now, but in a few years propagation is supposed to increase >> because the sun spots will return. At the same time there are >> scientists who say the ozone hole will be reducing by the year 2000 >> because of all the steps taken for CFC removal. Makes you wonder! >> Bud >> omne ignotum pro magnifico >I'll bet that you aren't a ham radio operator. We don't bounce radio >signals off the ozone layer. The E-layer, F-Layer, on and on and on, >all *ionized* layers of the atmosphere. >I've never heard of radio signals being bounced off the ozone layer! >-- Dan Meyer / N00KFB

You're right Dan, my error in saying that we use the ozone layer, the truth of the matter is the E, F and other layers will become more active when sunspots return when some of these scientists expect the ozone layer to return. And yes I am a HAM. Interesting though Dave, I made a mistake in layer designation but you didn't dispute the jist of the message. I bet you don't like NO-Code tech's either, I entered that way but have gone on in class, while your at it what kind of call sign is that with no number in it. I guess we all make simple mistakes. Bud omne ignotum pro magnifico

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>: >: >: I'll have to agree with Gene, I work in the scientific community and >: there are alot of people that just want the money for their half baked >: ideas. Interesting thing about the ozone layer is that ham radio uses >: the ozone layer for bouncing signals off. Surprisingly the radio >: propagation is dependent on sun spot activity which is virtually nill >: right now, but in a few years propagation is supposed to increase >: because the sun spots will return. At the same time there are >: scientists who say the ozone hole will be reducing by the year 2000 >: because of all the steps taken for CFC removal. Makes you wonder! >: >Wrong. Ham radio signals bounce off the ionosphere, not the ozone >layer. Ozone is transparent to radio waves. >And the crackpots are those still claiming CFCs don't destroy the ozone, >in spite of overwhelming hard data, accepted theories, and a Nobel Prize >to the originators.

I included a message that Dan wrote and my response for correction. I am not saying CFC do not destroy ozone, but I don't really accept that all the damage is being done by human made CFC's, some is probably being done but is it really enough that the environment is not repairing it? I don't know, I personally don't have access to all the data. Besides so what some one won a nobel prize, you don't even give evidence to who they are. The data they are collecting has only been in the last decade or so because of use of the SR-71 aircraft and other sattelites for scientific use. This is when sunspot activity was decreasing, which you did not address. Most good scientific data that is used in the medical and environmental fields are culminated over an extensive period of time and or specimens, 10 years in a world that has been around for billions? I am adding this info for constructive debate, not ranting and raving like you that we all have to believe what YOU have to say. Humans are prone to make mistakes. Mistakes on the conservative side aren't necassarily all bad but you do have to weigh the alternatives. I've run enough tests in my company to know that when there is a failure in the article being tested and there is big money to be made, the parameters are changed to show that it was a huge succes. Face it, non technical people looking at a technical report that shows some thing works makes news and generates money. Some of the scientific community are no better than charlatan's and snake oil sales men. Been there done that! You're right Dan, my error in saying that we use the ozone layer, the truth of the matter is the E, F and other layers will become more active when sunspots return when some of these scientists expect the ozone layer to return. And yes I am a HAM. Interesting though Dave, I made a mistake in layer designation but you didn't dispute the jist of the message. I bet you don't like NO-Code tech's either, I entered that way but have gone on in class, while your at it what kind of call sign is that with no number in it. I guess we all make simple mistakes. Bud omne ignotum pro magnifico Bud omne ignotum pro magnifico

>I included a message that Dan wrote and my response for correction. I >am not saying CFC do not destroy ozone, but I don't really accept that >all the damage is being done by human made CFC's, What other kind of CFC's are there? It's a legitimate question to ask whether natural sources of chlorine and bromine could contribute to the ozone hole. The best evidence, however, is that such natural sources of halogens are rained out in the troposphere and never make it to the troposphere and that the only way to account for the chlorine in the stratosphere based upon the global chlorine budget is that it comes from CFC's. The ozone hole keeps getting worse each year. Ordinarily, ozne would be both depleted and formed. CFC's have introduced a new source to destroy O3 without introducing a new way to create it. See J. Geophysical Res. 94 11,465 and also 11,480. Rowland, Molina, and a third researcher whose name escapes me shared this years Nobel prize in chemistry for their work on ozone depletion. ClO concentrations were directly anticorrelated with O3 concentrations. I really suggest reading the literature before criticizing arguments you don't understand. There has been solid evidence for the role of CFC's in ozone depletion since the 1987 ER2 mission (nine years ago). Other data on O3 concentration has been gathered for quite a bit longer. I came in late, so I missed the ranting and raving. If you are sincerely interested in this issue, the evidence is substantial. Usenet is probably not the best place to read about it. The scientific literature is available at any halfway decent library. Perhaps, but I have friends working in some of the labs doing research in this area and I can assure you that they are good scientists. It is not so easy to publish in a peer-reviewed journal. Also, science tends to be very competitive. If a researcher thought s/he could prove others wrong, s/he would jump at the chance. I also think that you ought not to accuse someone of being a snake oil salesman without examining the validity of that person's argument. The references I suggested above are a good starting place. Regards, Rich Green -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Richard J. Green Dept. of Chemistry http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud Stanford, CA 94305-5080 "Remember the days of yore, "Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you." -Deuteronomy 32:7

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>> >Would you mind it TERRIBLY if you moved your scientific theory >> >discussion to some non-automotive oriented newsgroup such as >> >alt.science.ozone.wonk or somewhere similar? There's REALLY no need to >> >continue your science theory arguments on this type newsgroup, is there? >> >-- >> >Jerry Bransford >> >PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. >> >The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything! >> Jerry, you have said this enough to become a nuisance. If you don't want to >> read or be reminded of it then kill the thread. While this may not be the >> proper forum, there is obviously interest in it, or it wouldn't have over a >> 100 responses/rebuttals/insults (chose one). >Yes, and you are obviously not interested in whether or not what you >want to discuss relates to the newsgroup's preferred subject matter. >And, the VAST majority of postings have been yours, you are the one who >is keeping it alive with your continued arguments. CONTINUED ozone >depletion discussion is simply not automotive related and it shouldn't >be here. Simple as that. If you want to argue scientific ozone theory, >take it where it is appropriate or take it private. Perhaps we should >simply forget about keeping subjects relative to the newsgroup's name?? >You truly are clueless if you can't understand that a long ongoing and >drawn-out discussion of a non-related subject matter is not polite to >others or in the best interest of the newsgroups you insist on copying >your posts to. Grow up and stop your pointless drawn-out whining about >who's right on ozone theory. >-- >Jerry Bransford >PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P. >The Zen hotdog... make me one with everything!

I would also really appreciate the Freon thing moving to another newsgroup. It will be so nice. AMZ

On Jul 03, 1996 20:25:18 in article <Re: Legal Freon Substitute>, >: >The CFC-ozone theory is just as accepted. >: You forgot "electron flow theory" and "Conventional current flow theory", >both of >: which explain the conduction of electricity (one explanation the exact >opposite of the >: other). Both are valid when taken within the parameters of the theory and

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>both are >: plausible explanations of how electrical currents flow. Neither can be >proven wrong, >: which is why both are valid theories, BUT, both _can't_ be correct! >Of course one can be proven right and the other wrong; it's been done >aeons ago in the dawn of solid state physics. >Electrons move quickly in conductors and scatter off impurities. >--

or UT >Oak Ridge National Laboratory/University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN USA/ >*NO MASS EMAIL SPAM* It's an abuse of Federal Government computer resources >and an affront to common civility. On account of egregiously vile spamation, >my software terminates all email from "interramp.com" and "cris.com" without >human intervention. ...Or perhaps you could point me to a source for a torsion-bar belonging to a '58 beetle???? PRB

Perform this on your a/c. THEN you won't have to listen to the wild life any longer. Mickey *No matter where I go, there I am.*