Hawaii (Gettin' it from behind)

To all sane Hawaii racers: pre-pubescent pimply-faced jerks rammin' you from behind after a race? I ran a clean 'Dega at 5%, started 20th and finished 4th, but after the checkered flag, got slammed from behind. I've read there are some real boneheads on Hawaii, but come on, what gives? I guess there are two things to learn from this: 1. Join a league with "professionals" (i.e., normal fun-lovin' racers) and avoid all the wimps who can't stand losing or are out for *** regardless of a clean race; 2. Start a "black list" of jerk-offs and try to a) warn other drivers in the race; or b) not even join a race if one of these guys shows his ugly face. I'd just hate to see it come to this, though, and I really don't want to see this become a Third Reich-marshalled event, if you know what I mean... I can take a joke, even have some demolition derby fun, but not at long distance rates. I can only hope that there are other people out there that feel the same way or have had the same experience and want to do something about it or vent their frustrations. This has been my two-cents worth... Kyle

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>To all sane Hawaii racers: >pre-pubescent pimply-faced jerks rammin' you from behind after a race? >I ran a clean 'Dega at 5%, started 20th and finished 4th, but after >the checkered flag, got slammed from behind. I've read there are some >real boneheads on Hawaii, but come on, what gives? > ..snip

As the "sport" matures, I suppose we will come up with the means to handle the non racers out there. But like everything else, you may have to let a few crazies in to protect the rights of the general population of racers. I tend to go out of my way to avoid accidents, and many times have lifted to prevent an accident, sometimes putting myself out of contention. BUT; Yesterday, I entered two races, and was taken out of each race while in the lead when someone that couldn't figure out how to get around me hit me from behind in a turn! It pisses me off a little, but keep telling myself that I need to figure out how to keep from getting into those positions. Then in desperation for a good race, I tried for a third one. Finally, got in a good race, neck and neck up to the last lap. Both of us giving the other guy clearance when there was overlap. On the last lap, I was a CLOSE 2'nd, when we came up on traffic. I was going to try to go low, and he was going high. Even though from my replay, we appeared to have clearance, he started spinning. We hit and that was the end. From his comments after the race (*&&^$%^&^&^), I guess I hit him! We were both taken out of contention. To make a loooong story short, Even the careful drivers are going to have some accidents, so a lot of thought has to go into black listing or some method to weed out reckless drivers.

--snip-- there is a way... it already exists. The skill level system is put in place for just this reason. "black listing" is a vveeery bad idea. Yous pays you dime, yous takes you chances. -- ============================================================ "Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep." --Scott Adams

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> --snip-- > > high. Even though from my replay, we appeared to have clearance, he started spinning. We hit and that was the end. From > > his comments after the race (*&&^$%^&^&^), I guess I hit him! We were both taken out of contention. To make a loooong > > story short, Even the careful drivers are going to have some accidents, so a lot of thought has to go into black listing > > or some method to weed out reckless drivers. > there is a way... it already exists. The skill level system is put > in place for just this reason. "black listing" is a vveeery bad idea. > Yous pays you dime, yous takes you chances. > -- > ============================================================ > "Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is > knowing which ones to keep." --Scott Adams I agree- black listing is a very bad idea. I've run a few races where

I've hit people and really pissed them off- but it was accidental and I usually run very cleanly - in fact usually I'm taken out by someone from behind. I think the skill level ratings although not perfect are the best for now. They must work somewhat because the top drivers from some of the off line leagues seem to have the top ratings 9-10. Ken

Yes, the notion of black listing is a scary one, and as I mentioned before, I'd hate to see the system resort to that sort of arrangement, but I like the idea of getting the stats and then watching out for whoever has been "flagged" by other drivers as one who could just be out for the kill. As for Ed's comment, I pay my dime so I can join in the system, but my chances should be with other drivers wanting to finish the race, not wanting to slam into to me 'cause I ripped past them and they can't take it like a man. I can see going for the checkered flag, tensions high, and I spin or cause an accident because of the heat of the event, and that's something all racers deal with, even when backing off means losing a place or two to spare some poor soul from having to get angry and pissed off at me, I will do that to save some frustration for all parties involved, BUT intentionally doing it is a whole other matter. Kyle

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> listing is a very bad idea. I've run a few races where > I've hit people and really pissed them off- but it was accidental and I > usually run very cleanly - in fact usually I'm taken out by someone from > behind. I think the skill level ratings although not perfect are the > best for now. They must work somewhat because the top drivers from some > of the off line leagues seem to have the top ratings 9-10. > Ken

The only ones that need to be blacklisted are those who are obviously retaliating by driving full speed through the infield and plowing under 1 or two cars on the track. This has happened to me twice, both by drivers whose ratings are above 6. One of them was one of the original beta testers, supposedly handpicked for his driving ability. The ratings formula works. Only running in league races is the only way to stay away from those who should be blacklisted. That way they blacklist themselves, because they will never get in to the league or they won't stay in them very long. David Martin dgm26sam

>Even the careful drivers are going to have some accidents, so a lot of >thought has to go into black listing or some method to weed out reckless >drivers. Well put, but I'd go even further than that. Ever hear of the McCarthy hearings? The Salem witch trials? Black listing is inevitably subject to abuse. As you pointed out, even good drivers have accidents, and some are not their fault. Two cars go for the same patch of asphalt, somebody checks up at the front of a line of cars, there are lots of ways to end up bending sheet metal unintentionally. Sometimes, your first impression of someone is the one they leave on your rear bumper, and vice versa. So give someone the benefit of the doubt the first time. Sometimes the adrenaline really starts pumping, especially on that last lap, and it's soooo tempting to try that move to get one more position. I think the ultimate solution to the guys who are out to wreck is league racing. If you have to face the guy next week, you're much more likely to think twice about pulling a bonehead move. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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>As you pointed out, even good drivers have accidents, and some are not >their fault. Two cars go for the same patch of asphalt, somebody checks up >at the front of a line of cars, there are lots of ways to end up bending >sheet metal unintentionally. Sometimes, your first impression of someone is >the one they leave on your rear bumper, and vice versa. So give someone the >benefit of the doubt the first time. Sometimes the adrenaline really starts >pumping, especially on that last lap, and it's soooo tempting to try that >move to get one more position. >I think the ultimate solution to the guys who are out to wreck is league >racing. If you have to face the guy next week, you're much more likely to >think twice about pulling a bonehead move.

I think you MUST be right!! Although I can't afford to call Hawaii (I'm in Britain), I have often thought how cool multi-player racing must be, and in this notion there are many pros and cons thrown up. A league is a definite progression of the idea, and is the best solution to the problem in my opinion. There could be a division for pros, one for people who have a good reputation and claim to be good, one for beginners and one for arrogant zit-heads who drive the wrong way in a race ;-) With the right sort of setting up, the leagues could become well-known, with reports in magazines or on the web, and sponsors could even be drafted in. The drivers would form friends, or enemies, and could even meet once in a while for a kart meeting or so. Sound fun? Yes doesn't it. My two pence, Dave Bowers.

(Kyle Stevens) writes: >pre-pubescent pimply-faced jerks rammin' you from behind after a race? >I ran a clean 'Dega at 5%, started 20th and finished 4th, but after >the checkered flag, got slammed from behind. I've read there are some >real boneheads on Hawaii, but come on, what gives? >I guess there are two things to learn from this: Actually , just one thing for you to learn. After the Checkers fall go around the track at get to a safe spot and stop. then exit. You probably slowed on the track and became fair game for the crash freaks. Gene

>The ratings formula works. I'm not sure I agree with you. The problem with the ratings system as it exists is that you advance quickly if you place well in a large field of drivers of equivalent skill (within 2 skill levels). This has created sort of a two class society: Those who race Talladega; and those who don't. If you race Tally regularly and don't crash out all the time, you've probably seen your skill level improve steadily. If you don't race Tally regularly, your skill level has probably stagnated after a few rounds of improvement. If you want an explanation of why this happens, I'd be happy to show you the math. The good news is that Papyrus is changing the rating system to individualize the ratings by type of track (Superspeedways, One-mile ovals, Short tracks and Road courses). Hopefully, this will equalize the ratings system out a little better for those who don't care for the Tally demolition derbies. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

Absolutely! Pick up Races are fun, well, if everyone wants to actually race, but a league adds SOOO much to the intensity of the racing and the fun. Just the complexity of racing for points adds a flavor to the racing. Knowing that if that guy in front leads one more lap he'll get an extra five points on you, and wanting SO badly to close the points gap in a season, and actually having to think for once about points with 20 other people on the track, is a truly satisfying experience. Throw that in with the fact that by the time a season is halfway through, you have 20 people in 20 different places who are now great friends, and just wishing for once you could get all of them together in your back yard with the grill, a case of beer, and a bunch of replays... It's to bad about living in Britain Dave, this is truly a hoot :) -- http://www.cris.com/~bms/index.htm Closed Beta Tester Hawaii Network - bsimpson online "It's Always Darkest before it goes totally Black" Hawaii Ace League http://www.cris.com/~bms/hal.htm

>With the right sort of setting up, the leagues could become >well-known, with reports in magazines or on the web, and sponsors >could even be drafted in. The drivers would form friends, or enemies, >and could even meet once in a while for a kart meeting or so. >Sound fun? Yes doesn't it. It's great fun! Most of the Hawaii leagues are young and are still maturing. But you can get a taste of what it can be like by watching some of the Hawaii Ace League replays and reading the race reports at: http://www.cris.com/~bms/hal.htm I'm in two leagues at the moment, and the races are starting to get pretty interesting. We had a great IVGA Winston Cup race at Martinsville last Thursday. There were several times during the race where I was racing door-to-door in a pack of cars that went on for several laps. I was actually passing cars on the outside at Martinsville! You just don't see that kind of thing happen in AI races. I'm really looking forward to the NRL-sanctioned leagues. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

>It's to bad about living in Britain Dave, this is truly a hoot :) Well that makes me feel a whole lot better ;-)

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>(Kyle Stevens) writes: >>pre-pubescent pimply-faced jerks rammin' you from behind after a race? >>I ran a clean 'Dega at 5%, started 20th and finished 4th, but after >>the checkered flag, got slammed from behind. I've read there are some >>real boneheads on Hawaii, but come on, what gives? >>I guess there are two things to learn from this: >Actually , just one thing for you to learn. After the Checkers fall go >around the track at get to a safe spot and stop. then exit. You probably >slowed on the track and became fair game for the crash freaks. >Gene

You know what, I hate to admit it, but your absolutely right. Exiting early is the way to go, but I wasn't even 100 yards past the finish line when it happened; however, I slowed and that was my fatal mistake. I can live without the realism of parking it in the pits, that's for sure! I ask for it if I stay on the track, it's just too bad there has to be crash freaks (great call) at all. Leagues are the way to go! Kyle P.S. I'm glad there have been so many follow-ups to the original post. That confirms my belief that there are more decent and fair (but competitive) racers out there than boneheads!

> I'm not sure I agree with you. The problem with the ratings system as it > exists is that you advance quickly if you place well in a large field of Dave, I've been playing around with the hawaii skills rating formula. Attempting to duplicate what Larry Holbert has done for Windows on a unix machine (or DOS). I don't have all the answers about the formula so I probably won't succeed, but I have developed an different opinion about the system. If scoring is symmetrical, the higher up you go the harder it is to fall back down. I would suggest that Papyrus modify the rating formula to make it easier to fall. For example, if you are a level 8 driver. You must get a rating modifier of +9 to move up to level 9 and you have to get a -9 to move down to level 7. I would suggest that you could move down for any average below 0. Since they drop your lowest 2 scores, this (to me) seems fair. Likewise if you were a level 10. You would have to maintain an average of +3 to keep from falling. It would be harder to maintain your skill level, but if you do maintain it, then it says something stronger about your ability (or luck). :-) David Martin

>If scoring is symmetrical, the higher up you go the harder it is to fall >back down. I would suggest that Papyrus modify the rating formula to >make it easier to fall. For example, if you are a level 8 driver. You >must get a rating modifier of +9 to move up to level 9 and you have to >get a -9 to move down to level 7. It's worse than that at the break points. It only takes a +6 average to move from level 6 to level 7, but it takes a -9 to drop from level 7 to level 6. I think this means that there will be anomalies in the scoring system at each of the break points, ie. 4,7,10 and 13. You can also see the effect by looking at the number of advances vs. declines in the MPANAL32's skill rating summary. I think I've got a pretty good handle on how the skill system works. Drop me email if you need a clarification. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports