IMPORTANT Nascar Info

Please, reference this letter: Alston & Bird One Atlantic Center 1201 West Peachtree Street Atlanta, GA 30309-3424 Martin J. Elgison May 29, 1996 Mr. Tim Wortman Decatur, IL Re: NASSCAR Dear Mr. Wortman, We are in receipt of your letter of May 12, 1996 regarding your NASSCAR website. We thank you for your willingness to cooperate with Nascar in its endeavor to protect the NASCAR trademarks, and we hope that you will continue to support Nascar racing in the future. However, while we certainly appreciate the many changes you have made to your website in compliance with our requests, we notice that you are still using the mark NASSCAR in your website, albeit as an acronym for a new organization name. In addition, you have not removed the graphic of the NASCAR Racing box which displays the multi-colored NASCAR bar logo. Because your continued use of the mark NASSCAR threatens to dilute the distinctive quality of the NASCAR mark and to create a likelihood of confusion among consumers, we must again insist that you stop any further use of "NASSCAR" as a trademark or as an abbreviation for your organization name. Although the mark NASSCAR is not identical in appearance to the NASCAR mark, both marks are pronounced the same and are identical in all material aspects. Additionally, the mark is used in connection with a computer simulated racing league that utilizes an official Nascar-licensed product. As such, there is still a good possibility that consumers would be confused as to the relationship between Nascar and your organization, despite the fact that you have incorporated the disclaimer that we requested. Also, we notice that you still have the image of the NASCAR Racing video game box on your website, which includes the mutli-colored NASCAR bar logo. We must ask again that you remove that image. Please understand that our position with respect to your use of NASSCAR is not mere "nit picking." Nascar is under legal duty to take all necessary precautions to prevent the loss of its trademark rights. Therefore, we also ask that whatever mark you select to replace the NASSCAR mark not be designed to "play off" of or imitate the NASCAR mark. If we can help you in any way with the necessary changes, please let us know. Sincerely, Martin J. Elgison --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One word folks..........Bullshit. This is exactly what NASCAR thinks of you, the computer sim driver. A trademark issue.....I really don't think so. How many web sites are out there that use the word NASCAR, a picture of the Nascar Racing game box, etc etc. How many NASSCAR drivers really got confused, thinking I was actually at the race last week and beat Dale Earnhardt to the line? It's all dollars and cents folks. NASSCAR commands the attention of alot of computer sim drivers. Now that NASCAR has sanctioned Papyrus as its 13th division, it's quite clear that NASCAR wants full control of the simulated racing world. I guess I'll rename the series.......NASUCKS. Think anyone would be confused about the meaning of that? Please, not just for the sake of NASSCAR, but for the sake of all series similar to it which operate today or may operate in the future, write or call NASCAR and let them know what you think of their latest endeavor. NASCAR 1801 W. International Sppedway Blvd. Daytona Beach, FL 32114 (904)253-0611 _______________________________________ Tim Wortman NASSCAR '96 Series Director Visit the NASSCAR '96 home page http://www.webcom.com/twortman/nasscar/ _______________________________________

I'm sure to get flamed for this, BUT... keep in mind this is nothing personal and I'm just trying to be objective. sent shooting through ***space: I couldn't say this until I'd talked to NASCAR personally. Like I ever will... Well, the problem with NASSCAR (at least as I can see it in the gentleman's letter) is not just the word NASCAR or the box logo -- it's that NASSCAR is in that distinctive multicolored bar logo that is EXACTLY like the NASCAR logo. That, coupled with the NASCAR box, is close enough to the actual logo that it might be considered a violation. Close enough, at least, for them to write to you. I don't think this has anything to do with them thinking you're affiliated with NASCAR -- just that they think your site mimics the trademarked items too closely. I don't think so. I think that now that NASCAR is entering into the sim-racing field, they don't want any confusion as to which site is legally licensed to use their logo. Simple. Otherwise, if they WERE trying to take over sim racing, they'd have gone after IVGA, IVL, IGN, etc. etc. etc. as well -- but they don't, because they have unique logos and names. It has nothing to do with the size or importance of a racing series, either. Just the trademarks. My guess is when Daytona found out about the patch, they might have alerted NASCAR to be more vigilant to sim racing and possible trademark violations. They are, after all, legally bound by the terms of the trademark law to defend it, or they'll lose the rights to it. I certainly am not. I'm not going to, because in this case I think they have legal justification for their actions. I would be on their side as well if they wrote ME a letter getting on me for using sponsors' look-and-feel in IWCCCARS -- because frankly I am. Truth be told, NASSCAR is popular enough that it wouldn't hurt you to change your logo design. That would clear up this whole problem. My understanding is that they don't care about the NAME, just that your logos mimic their trademarked ones too closely. -- IWCCCARS Project Coordinator Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

Well I guess I'll get flamed too, but when did making money become imm*** in this country? Everytime someone tries to make a buck, or in this case almost a Billion bucks, people label them as scum. Hey they (NASCAR) put on a show, and spent years building it, and invested time, sweat, and money (not to mention ***) into making it go and they have a right to protect their legal rights. Actually, having worked in media for some years and being on both ends of one of those letters, they seemed to be more reasonable about it than most. They seem to be quite willing to work with you so both parties can be satisfied, and considering they have the hammer here, it's seems to be a generous offer. Again, try not to take it personally and use the chance to make your logo your own, and lend some uniqness to it! LB Hawaii: Rustbucket

>Please, reference this letter: >Alston & Bird >One Atlantic Center >1201 West Peachtree Street >Atlanta, GA 30309-3424 [snip...] Well, I'm sure I'll get flamed too, but after all my postings up here, I'm getting used to it. :-) Tim, I'm tempted to send this to you via e-mail because I know you (at least electonically from AOL & Hawaii). But I think/hope my posting will help inform everyone. A lot of what I want to say has already been covered in the other 2 follow-up postings. Bottom line, NASCAR is a business... a business out to make money. Good for them -- God bless America! What is NASCAR? What does NASCAR offer? They are a brand. Those 6 letters are about all they own & about all they NEED to own. You mention or think the word NASCAR & you get a very clear image of what they are all about. That's a VERY powerful brand. It's up there with Coke & McDonalds. So, you bet you butts they're going to protect their brand name. They have every right to do so, and they are quite smart to do so. If the value of those 6 letters is diminished, they are left with nothing. Sure, the France family also owns a number of tracks through a SEPARATE company (ISC), but the events held at those tracks are big only because the NASCAR name is attached to those events. Again, those 6 letters are HUGE. Tim, you say "This is exactly what NASCAR thinks of you, the computer sim driver". You really want to know what NASCAR thinks about the computer sim driver? They think the world of you. They think so much of the computer sim driver that they just created a new NASCAR division just for you -- the NASCAR Racing League. You know how many people would give their right arm to become a sanctoned NASCAR division? You know how many people dream of being part of NASCAR? My God, Tim, think about it! They know exactly how big the computer sim driver is... and they think a LOT about the computer sim driver. Well guess what, just like the other 12 NASCAR divisions, the NASCAR Racing League proudly hangs our hat on the power behind the NASCAR name/brand. The NRL will be great because NASCAR is great... because those 6 letters mean so much. If we were to roll out Hawaii as the "Generic Stockcar Racing League", people wouldn't have a clear idea of what we are all about. However, call it the "NASCAR Racing League" and you know that you will get the ultimate racing experience... because NASCAR is behind it. The fact that they are talking to you about NASSCAR is because they HAVE TO protect their brand name. The name is what they own. The brand IS the product. If they don't protect it, the brand is worthtless. They aren't saying that NASSCAR is a bad thing that will diminish their name, all they are saying is that NOBODY can use their name. They can't give it to you in the form of NASSCAR for a well run league, and then tell some other guy 'no' because he wants to run a league called NAZCAR just beacuse he isn't as well organized as you. NOBODY CAN USE IT. Now, why is NASCAR and Daytona suddenly paying so much attention to the sim market & the online world? Simple... because they just threw their hat in the ring. They saw how big the original NASCAR Racing was, they saw how big the computer game market is, they saw how big the online world is, and they jumped in with NASCAR 2 & the NASCAR Racing League. They also jumped in with a long-term agreement with Papyrus/Sierra to keep bringing more NASCAR products out. So, if you were a big company & you were jumping in with both feet, don't you think you might start watching you "new market" a lot closer? Of course you would! That's just smart business. And they are watching. Well, with the good comes the bad. You want NASCAR 2? You want the NASCAR Racing League? You want NASCAR 3 & beyond? It sure sounds like everyone does. With it, however, comes the fact that NASCAR & the licensed properties are going to be keeping a much closer eye on this industry, because they have just become PART of this industry. Frankly, a lot of what people used to get away with might not fly so well anymore. Does that mean that everything people try to do is going to get shot down? Of course not! However, if someone is going to take, for example, the Daytona track & distribute it, ISC is going to have something to say about it. The Daytona mark is big money too, and Daytona is in the business of making money. If anyone is going to do a Daytona track, ISC is going to be part of it (and we hope to do it with them someday!). And, if someone calls an online racing league NASSCAR, NASCAR is going to protect it as well. That doesn't make them evil, that just makes them smart business people out to protect what they have built & what they own. Just because you love their product does not give you the right to use their name. If you think they're different than anyone else in the world (well, America), try opening up a chain of burger places called MacDonalds. Names, brands and trademarks are very valuable. Try to put yourself in their position. If any of us had anything like what they have, I bet we'd all protect it, too. I know I would. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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> I don't think so. I think that now that NASCAR is entering into the > sim-racing field, they don't want any confusion as to which site is > legally licensed to use their logo. Simple. Otherwise, if they WERE > trying to take over sim racing, they'd have gone after IVGA, IVL, IGN, > etc. etc. etc. as well -- but they don't, because they have unique > logos and names. It has nothing to do with the size or importance of > a racing series, either. Just the trademarks.

Tony, Reading Tim's message has gotten me thinking that maybe someone could come after us (IVL, IGN, etc.), at least me anyway. I guess in the back of my mind I figured either Tim had already obtained permission from NASCAR or they would catch him eventually. My series strives to mimic NASCAR in everyway possible except their logo. Every race is named the same, I have as many track logos as I can in the web pages because graphics is what everyone wants. I've thought about changing the names of the races, but we are still running on the same tracks and still use big name sponsors like Goodwrench and Valvoline. If NASCAR is going to get uptight about the use of its name and 'likeness', then what should we expect from all of the other corporations that have logos on our webpages? We certainly can't get permission from all of them, heck, it would take months to even get one of them to talk to us. There's only so many fake names you can come up with that don't include some product or another. You'ld have to be an absolute idiot to confuse a simulated racing series with real NASCAR Racing. David Martin IVL Series Director

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> Please, reference this letter: > Alston & Bird > One Atlantic Center > 1201 West Peachtree Street > Atlanta, GA 30309-3424 > Martin J. Elgison > May 29, 1996 > Mr. Tim Wortman > Decatur, IL > Re: NASSCAR > Dear Mr. Wortman, > We are in receipt of your letter of May 12, 1996 regarding your > NASSCAR website. We thank you for your willingness to cooperate with > Nascar in its endeavor to protect the NASCAR trademarks, and we hope > that you will continue to support Nascar racing in the future. > However, while we certainly appreciate the many changes you have made > to your website in compliance with our requests, we notice that you > are still using the mark NASSCAR in your website, albeit as an acronym > for a new organization name. In addition, you have not removed the > graphic of the NASCAR Racing box which displays the multi-colored > NASCAR bar logo. > Because your continued use of the mark NASSCAR threatens to dilute the > distinctive quality of the NASCAR mark and to create a likelihood of > confusion among consumers, we must again insist that you stop any > further use of "NASSCAR" as a trademark or as an abbreviation for your > organization name. Although the mark NASSCAR is not identical in > appearance to the NASCAR mark, both marks are pronounced the same and > are identical in all material aspects. Additionally, the mark is used > in connection with a computer simulated racing league that utilizes an > official Nascar-licensed product. As such, there is still a good > possibility that consumers would be confused as to the relationship > between Nascar and your organization, despite the fact that you have > incorporated the disclaimer that we requested. > Also, we notice that you still have the image of the NASCAR Racing > video game box on your website, which includes the mutli-colored > NASCAR bar logo. We must ask again that you remove that image. > Please understand that our position with respect to your use of > NASSCAR is not mere "nit picking." Nascar is under legal duty to take > all necessary precautions to prevent the loss of its trademark rights. > Therefore, we also ask that whatever mark you select to replace the > NASSCAR mark not be designed to "play off" of or imitate the NASCAR > mark. > If we can help you in any way with the necessary changes, please let > us know. > Sincerely, > Martin J. Elgison > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > One word folks..........Bullshit. This is exactly what NASCAR thinks > of you, the computer sim driver. > A trademark issue.....I really don't think so. How many web sites are > out there that use the word NASCAR, a picture of the Nascar Racing > game box, etc etc. How many NASSCAR drivers really got confused, > thinking I was actually at the race last week and beat Dale Earnhardt > to the line? > It's all dollars and cents folks. NASSCAR commands the attention of > alot of computer sim drivers. Now that NASCAR has sanctioned Papyrus > as its 13th division, it's quite clear that NASCAR wants full control > of the simulated racing world. > I guess I'll rename the series.......NASUCKS. Think anyone would be > confused about the meaning of that? > Please, not just for the sake of NASSCAR, but for the sake of all > series similar to it which operate today or may operate in the future, > write or call NASCAR and let them know what you think of their latest > endeavor. > NASCAR > 1801 W. International Sppedway Blvd. > Daytona Beach, FL 32114 > (904)253-0611 > _______________________________________ > Tim Wortman > NASSCAR '96 Series Director > Visit the NASSCAR '96 home page > http://www.webcom.com/twortman/nasscar/ > _______________________________________Why don't we circulate a petition and get it off to Nascar. This is

bullshit!

This is not BS, it is the law. As nit-picky as it seems, blame the US govt. or whoever it is that made the trademark law, not NASCAR, or any other Co. that is legally obliged to protect it's marks or lose them. We have had to deal with the same issues where I work, and it is NOT an issue of greed or nit-picking, it is simply the law that if you do not take action against the unlicensed use of a mark, you can legitmitally lose the rights to it. Tim V

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> > Please, reference this letter: > > Alston & Bird > > One Atlantic Center > > 1201 West Peachtree Street > > Atlanta, GA 30309-3424 > > Martin J. Elgison > > May 29, 1996 > > Mr. Tim Wortman > > Decatur, IL > > Re: NASSCAR > > Dear Mr. Wortman, > > We are in receipt of your letter of May 12, 1996 regarding your > > NASSCAR website. We thank you for your willingness to cooperate with > > Nascar in its endeavor to protect the NASCAR trademarks, and we hope > > that you will continue to support Nascar racing in the future. > > However, while we certainly appreciate the many changes you have made > > to your website in compliance with our requests, we notice that you > > are still using the mark NASSCAR in your website, albeit as an acronym > > for a new organization name. In addition, you have not removed the > > graphic of the NASCAR Racing box which displays the multi-colored > > NASCAR bar logo. > > Because your continued use of the mark NASSCAR threatens to dilute the > > distinctive quality of the NASCAR mark and to create a likelihood of > > confusion among consumers, we must again insist that you stop any > > further use of "NASSCAR" as a trademark or as an abbreviation for your > > organization name. Although the mark NASSCAR is not identical in > > appearance to the NASCAR mark, both marks are pronounced the same and > > are identical in all material aspects. Additionally, the mark is used > > in connection with a computer simulated racing league that utilizes an > > official Nascar-licensed product. As such, there is still a good > > possibility that consumers would be confused as to the relationship > > between Nascar and your organization, despite the fact that you have > > incorporated the disclaimer that we requested. > > Also, we notice that you still have the image of the NASCAR Racing > > video game box on your website, which includes the mutli-colored > > NASCAR bar logo. We must ask again that you remove that image. > > Please understand that our position with respect to your use of > > NASSCAR is not mere "nit picking." Nascar is under legal duty to take > > all necessary precautions to prevent the loss of its trademark rights. > > Therefore, we also ask that whatever mark you select to replace the > > NASSCAR mark not be designed to "play off" of or imitate the NASCAR > > mark. > > If we can help you in any way with the necessary changes, please let > > us know. > > Sincerely, > > Martin J. Elgison > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > One word folks..........Bullshit. This is exactly what NASCAR thinks > > of you, the computer sim driver. > > A trademark issue.....I really don't think so. How many web sites are > > out there that use the word NASCAR, a picture of the Nascar Racing > > game box, etc etc. How many NASSCAR drivers really got confused, > > thinking I was actually at the race last week and beat Dale Earnhardt > > to the line? > > It's all dollars and cents folks. NASSCAR commands the attention of > > alot of computer sim drivers. Now that NASCAR has sanctioned Papyrus > > as its 13th division, it's quite clear that NASCAR wants full control > > of the simulated racing world. > > I guess I'll rename the series.......NASUCKS. Think anyone would be > > confused about the meaning of that? > > Please, not just for the sake of NASSCAR, but for the sake of all > > series similar to it which operate today or may operate in the future, > > write or call NASCAR and let them know what you think of their latest > > endeavor. > > NASCAR > > 1801 W. International Sppedway Blvd. > > Daytona Beach, FL 32114 > > (904)253-0611 > > _______________________________________ > > Tim Wortman > > NASSCAR '96 Series Director > > Visit the NASSCAR '96 home page > > http://www.webcom.com/twortman/nasscar/ > > _______________________________________Why don't we circulate a petition and get it off to Nascar. This is > bullshit!

On Mon, 03 Jun 1996 15:14:11 -0400, David Martin See, that's not what I saw in the NASCAR guy's letter at all. If you remember, he was referring SPECIFICALLY to NASCAR's yellow/red/purple/blue bar logo, which NASSCAR had up until then been using for their own logo, down to the same font style. That, paired with the NASCAR logo on the simulator box, apparently constituted a threat to the trademark. I saw nothing in the letter that had ANYTHING to do with either the NASSCAR name, the racing series, or anything else. Just the logos. That's true. With that in mind, it makes you appreciate Papyrus' effort to come up with fake names in their carsets.. ;-) Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. -- IWCCCARS Project Coordinator Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

>I'm sure to get flamed for this, BUT... keep in mind this is nothing >personal and I'm just trying to be objective. >sent shooting through ***space: Snip Actually, you haven't been to the page for a while Tony. The Nasscar logo now doesn't even remotely resemble the official multi-color bar design that Nascar uses. The problem does lie in the name Nasscar, and it's only because it's a simulation series. If Nascar wants to be the policeman of the internet, they better start doing a better job. A quick trip to Info Search tonight netted better than 2000 sites that reference Nascar. Of the first 40 I looked at, 24 had copyright violations. Some were actually commercial sites, that clearly did not meet the requirements of Nascar, even if they had been authorized sites. Commercial sites, selling goods, collecting profits. But let's turn our attention to the racing sims page.....mine in particular. But this has nothing to do with Nascar's entry into the sim racing world. Hmmm..... Snip Yeah, I know that Tony. And I'll admit I kind of went off here. Not something I usually do. I'll of course have to make all the changes they request, even though I don't believe some are within their boundries, since I don't have large heaps of cash lying about. But I'm not going to be singled out like this without making some noise either. _______________________________________ Tim Wortman NASSCAR '96 Series Director Visit the NASSCAR '96 home page http://www.webcom.com/twortman/nasscar/ _______________________________________

[snip] Reread the second part of the letter. They specifically ask him to stop using the name 'NASSCAR.' I think the _only_ reason NASCAR even contacted him is because of the name similarity. Having the Nascar logos everywhere is free advertising for them, but they don't want people mistaking his organization for theirs. Nascar could hire a full-time staff to search for their logo on the net if they really wanted to get rid of it, but it's a big waste of their time and money and i'm sure they know that. I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind choosing NASSCAR as a name was it's similarity to NASCAR. I can appreciate being passionate about one's organization, but a name change will not degrade it's popularity. It's easy to confuse one name for the other, I did when I was a newbie to this group. I would have to side with NASCAR on this one. I also don't think NASCAR is going to go after other racing groups. Doing that would only create hostility, which would harm Nascar's beloved 'reputation.' they spoke of in the letter.

A story related to this. Just before we released IndyCar Racing II for DOS we ran our fake names by our lawyers. On THE DAY WE CUT THE GOLD CD, the lawyers called and said we couldn't use the name Enerjuice (which we had used in NASCAR). It seems that a company had applied for a trademark on the name Enerjuice (some sports-related drink, no doubt). We were frantically editing artwork literally hours before the CD had to make the Fed Ex shipment to the duplicators. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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>This is not BS, it is the law. As nit-picky as it seems, blame the US govt. >or whoever it is that made the trademark law, not NASCAR, or any other Co. >that is legally obliged to protect it's marks or lose them. We have had to >deal with the same issues where I work, and it is NOT an issue of greed or >nit-picking, it is simply the law that if you do not take action against the >unlicensed use of a mark, you can legitmitally lose the rights to it. > Tim V

I think what Tim was originally complaining about is that NASCAR seems to be making every effort to single him out, when there exists hundreds of web sites that use NASCAR's logos that to this point aren't receiving the same sort of attention that Tim's site is getting. This does seem coincidental considering it comes shortly after NASCAR announces its intention to sponsor an online series. Bill.

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>I'm sure to get flamed for this, BUT... keep in mind this is nothing >personal and I'm just trying to be objective. >sent shooting through ***space: >>One word folks..........B*******. This is exactly what NASCAR thinks >>of you, the computer sim driver. >I couldn't say this until I'd talked to NASCAR personally. Like I >ever will... >> A trademark issue.....I really don't think so. How many web sites are >>out there that use the word NASCAR, a picture of the Nascar Racing >>game box, etc etc. How many NASSCAR drivers really got confused, >>thinking I was actually at the race last week and beat Dale Earnhardt >>to the line? >Well, the problem with NASSCAR (at least as I can see it in the >gentleman's letter) is not just the word NASCAR or the box logo -- >it's that NASSCAR is in that distinctive multicolored bar logo that is >EXACTLY like the NASCAR logo. That, coupled with the NASCAR box, is >close enough to the actual logo that it might be considered a >violation. Close enough, at least, for them to write to you. I don't >think this has anything to do with them thinking you're affiliated >with NASCAR -- just that they think your site mimics the trademarked >items too closely. >>It's all dollars and cents folks. NASSCAR commands the attention of >>alot of computer sim drivers. Now that NASCAR has sanctioned Papyrus >>as its 13th division, it's quite clear that NASCAR wants full control >>of the simulated racing world. >I don't think so. I think that now that NASCAR is entering into the >sim-racing field, they don't want any confusion as to which site is >legally licensed to use their logo. Simple. Otherwise, if they WERE >trying to take over sim racing, they'd have gone after IVGA, IVL, IGN, >etc. etc. etc. as well -- but they don't, because they have unique >logos and names. It has nothing to do with the size or importance of >a racing series, either. Just the trademarks. >My guess is when Daytona found out about the patch, they might have >alerted NASCAR to be more vigilant to sim racing and possible >trademark violations. They are, after all, legally bound by the terms >of the trademark law to defend it, or they'll lose the rights to it. >>I guess I'll rename the series.......NASUCKS. Think anyone would be >>confused about the meaning of that? >I certainly am not. >>Please, not just for the sake of NASSCAR, but for the sake of all >>series similar to it which operate today or may operate in the future, >>write or call NASCAR and let them know what you think of their latest >>endeavor. >I'm not going to, because in this case I think they have legal >justification for their actions. I would be on their side as well if >they wrote ME a letter getting on me for using sponsors' look-and-feel >in IWCCCARS -- because frankly I am. >Truth be told, NASSCAR is popular enough that it wouldn't hurt you to >change your logo design. That would clear up this whole problem. My >understanding is that they don't care about the NAME, just that your >logos mimic their trademarked ones too closely. >-- >IWCCCARS Project Coordinator >Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor >Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

I have to agree with you entirely, (sorry Tim) but, as already stated, if NASCAR didn't pursue their trademark rights, they'd lost them. Besides, ever think that with NASCAR 2 coming soon, and Hawaii being the prototype for the '13th NASCAR division' maybe they're a little pissed off 'cause Tim beat them to using NASSCAR? (I know its a longshot, but who knows? stranger things have happened!) I also hope NASCAR, Papyrus and Daytona officials get together (maybe even IMS?) so us modem racers can run a full season! (ha! yea, sure!) -John They're not bugs! They're random features!

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>>This is not BS, it is the law. As nit-picky as it seems, blame the US govt. >>or whoever it is that made the trademark law, not NASCAR, or any other Co. >>that is legally obliged to protect it's marks or lose them. We have had to >>deal with the same issues where I work, and it is NOT an issue of greed or >>nit-picking, it is simply the law that if you do not take action against the >>unlicensed use of a mark, you can legitmitally lose the rights to it. >> Tim V >I think what Tim was originally complaining about is that NASCAR seems >to be making every effort to single him out, when there exists >hundreds of web sites that use NASCAR's logos that to this point >aren't receiving the same sort of attention that Tim's site is >getting. This does seem coincidental considering it comes shortly >after NASCAR announces its intention to sponsor an online series. >Bill.

I believe that the biggest problem for NASCAR is that NASSCAR has three divisions with names that only slightly differ from the names of the real divisions. If NASCAR plans to have Online Winston Cup, Online Busch Grand National and Online Arca divisions, there could be a big confusion. I'm sure Tim's series (in which I made my racing debuts last year) was never meant to replace NASCAR (no one with at least a neuron in his/her head could think this), but I imagine that NASCAR is hitting Tim on his head to prevent others from doing it. I believe that they are trying to avoid a CART/IRL situation in the (very promising) online racing scene. Furthermore, the (in my opinion absurd) US copyright laws are forcing them to do this. Just my 0.02$ Folco -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Folco Banfi | Check out the "records for sale", "NASCAR" Universite de Fribourg | and "Charts" sections of my home page! Institut d'Informatique | Chemin du Musee 3 | 1700 Fribourg, Switzerland | Tel. +41.37.29.84.79 | http://www-iiuf.unifr.ch/groups/sde/users/banfi/home.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sent shooting through ***space: That's the whole point, though. NASCAR is getting into sim racing, and they want and need the recognition that comes with their logo standards. ALL corporations are that way -- trust me, I've seen people like SCO and Novell do this all the time at work. Sure, there are hundreds of sites with NASCAR's logo on them, but they're not altered from their original form. Also, they're not being used in connection with non-NASCAR entities. You can bet that if someone puts NASCAR's logo and uses it to promote a racing series that isn't connected to NASCAR (like "Bob's Intermountain NASCAR Series") that NASCAR will act to protect its logo standards and trademarks. Picture this. I come up with a type of cereal that's pink, sugar-coated, doughnut shaped, and tastes like cinnamon. I put it in a green box with a picture of the bowl full of the cereal on the front cover. The name of the cereal is "Apple Jacques" by "Kelogs". Do you see the difference if I advertise my cereal THAT way (even if I don't charge for it) than if I put it in an orange box and call it "Apple O's" by "Tony's Cereal Co."? The latter way would just make my product generic and have no resemblance to the tradmark holder, so it's all right. But the FIRST way, innocent as I was to copyright and trademark law, infringed on Kellogg's trademarked product because it had the product's look and feel. People may speculate about the rightness or wrongness of SOFTWARE look and feel because that's an unexplored territory, but in NASSCAR's case and the one I just posed there are YEARS of case precedents to prove that NASCAR is WELL within their legal and ethical boundaries doing what they're doing. -- IWCCCARS Project Coordinator Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

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> This is not BS, it is the law. As nit-picky as it seems, blame the US govt. > or whoever it is that made the trademark law, not NASCAR, or any other Co. > that is legally obliged to protect it's marks or lose them. We have had to > deal with the same issues where I work, and it is NOT an issue of greed or > nit-picking, it is simply the law that if you do not take action against the > unlicensed use of a mark, you can legitmitally lose the rights to it. > Tim V

In this case NASCAR has a legitimate beef with the use of NASSCAR...it is confusing! I still read NASCAR whenever I see NASSCAR. If I don't happen to catch the fact on the second pass, I end up reading an article that I am not interested in. If a new person was reading a post about NASSCAR, especially with NRL around the corner, they may mistakenly think that something written by the guy running NASSCAR is actually from NASCAR (either because of confusion over the name, or because the person believes that it is a typo). This is another reason why NASCAR needs to protect the name (and its logo, when a person sees something, most of the time this is mapped to something that the person knows...sometimes the mind realizes that something is different, but most of the time it will not. Having the word NASSCAR and NASSCAR in the NASCAR logos are bad from a confusion standpoint. People are going to see these things and think "NASCAR"...until they learn to watch out for it. This is why trademarks, logos, etc, are important to a company...you don't want to buy something from Soney do you (spelling intentional)). As far as I'm concern, it is long time that NASSCAR changes it name. Gary. -- <:=--=:><:=--=:><:=--=:><:=--=:>\|/<:=--=:><:=--=:><:=--=:><:=--=:> | | USWest and I | I am not totally | | Gary M. Smithrud | have never seen | worthless! | | Boulder, Colorado | why would I | as a bad | | | speak for them? | example! | <:=--=:><:=--=:><:=--=:><:=--=:>/|\<:=--=:><:=--=:><:=--=:><:=--=:>

(RickGenter) writes: >Johns) writes: >>That's true. With that in mind, it makes you appreciate Papyrus' >>effort to come up with fake names in their carsets.. ;-) >A story related to this. Just before we released IndyCar Racing II for DOS

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>we ran our fake names by our lawyers. On THE DAY WE CUT THE GOLD CD, the >lawyers called and said we couldn't use the name Enerjuice (which we had >used in NASCAR). It seems that a company had applied for a trademark on >the name Enerjuice (some sports-related drink, no doubt). We were >frantically editing artwork literally hours before the CD had to make the >Fed Ex shipment to the duplicators. >Rick Genter >Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II >Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Excellent story, thanks. While we're on the subject I must congratulate you retrospectively on your other fake company names - I thought some of them were hilarious, intentional or not. The Lenient Loans/Chicken Shack stock car lasted ages until I switched sponsors. Er, started using real companies' logos. And thanks for making the PCX files readily accessible .. James -- James Bevan NeXTMail & MIME welcome

: Well, I'm sure I'll get flamed too, but after all my postings up here, : I'm getting used to it. :-) Ed, if you get flamed for this excellent post, I'll be standing in the "fire lane" with ya! Well put! From what I've seen of the facts, NASCAR dealt with this issue with class and understanding. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Alrighty then... So, all that is left is to change the name. I say have a contest worth 50 points to the NASSCAR driver that sends in the name that gets picked to replace NASSCAR. I have been with NASSCAR since its beginning (top 10 in WC div. all 3 seasons) and have never seen any other series boast the number of drivers that NASSCAR has. (400+?) I don't think a name change will harm the series in any way (although multiplayer is definately the future =) ). So, how 'bout it Tim? I could use the 50 points. We'll still be there for ya. 8) Bryan Barns BajaBarns on Hawaii #18 K.S. Garage Pontiac TLC Racing Team Medford, OR

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>sent shooting through ***space: >>I think what Tim was originally complaining about is that NASCAR seems >>to be making every effort to single him out, when there exists >>hundreds of web sites that use NASCAR's logos that to this point >>aren't receiving the same sort of attention that Tim's site is >>getting. This does seem coincidental considering it comes shortly >>after NASCAR announces its intention to sponsor an online series. >That's the whole point, though. NASCAR is getting into sim racing, >and they want and need the recognition that comes with their logo >standards. ALL corporations are that way -- trust me, I've seen >people like SCO and Novell do this all the time at work. Sure, there >are hundreds of sites with NASCAR's logo on them, but they're not >altered from their original form. Also, they're not being used in >connection with non-NASCAR entities. You can bet that if someone puts >NASCAR's logo and uses it to promote a racing series that isn't >connected to NASCAR (like "Bob's Intermountain NASCAR Series") that >NASCAR will act to protect its logo standards and trademarks. >Picture this. I come up with a type of cereal that's pink, >sugar-coated, doughnut shaped, and tastes like cinnamon. I put it in >a green box with a picture of the bowl full of the cereal on the front >cover. The name of the cereal is "Apple Jacques" by "Kelogs". Do you >see the difference if I advertise my cereal THAT way (even if I don't >charge for it) than if I put it in an orange box and call it "Apple >O's" by "Tony's Cereal Co."? The latter way would just make my >product generic and have no resemblance to the tradmark holder, so >it's all right. But the FIRST way, innocent as I was to copyright and >trademark law, infringed on Kellogg's trademarked product because it >had the product's look and feel. >People may speculate about the rightness or wrongness of SOFTWARE look >and feel because that's an unexplored territory, but in NASSCAR's case >and the one I just posed there are YEARS of case precedents to prove >that NASCAR is WELL within their legal and ethical boundaries doing >what they're doing. >-- >IWCCCARS Project Coordinator >Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor >Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

Yes that's right Tony, but Marvin's (NASCAR lawyer) original letter never says "we're singling you out because we're getting into the online market". The letter simply states the NASSCAR's use of several logos run counter to trademark law and must be removed. This is all well and good, but if it can be applied to Tim's site then we all know of many others NASCAR can be equally vigilant about. It wouldn't hurt if NASCAR/Marvin just came out and said what they're really after here. Bill.

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>This is not BS, it is the law. As nit-picky as it seems, blame the US govt. >or whoever it is that made the trademark law, not NASCAR, or any other Co. >that is legally obliged to protect it's marks or lose them. We have had to >deal with the same issues where I work, and it is NOT an issue of greed or >nit-picking, it is simply the law that if you do not take action against the >unlicensed use of a mark, you can legitmitally lose the rights to it. > > Tim V > >

A very similiar set of circumstance is that of property. If someone were to pitch a tent in your front yard for twenty years and you never did anything during that time to kick him out, after that twenty years he would own your property, free and clear. Trademarks work the same way. --- Frank ---

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>I believe that the biggest problem for NASCAR is that NASSCAR has three >divisions with names that only slightly differ from the names of the real >divisions. If NASCAR plans to have Online Winston Cup, Online Busch Grand >National and Online Arca divisions, there could be a big confusion. >I'm sure Tim's series (in which I made my racing debuts last year) was >never meant to replace NASCAR (no one with at least a neuron in his/her >head could think this), but I imagine that NASCAR is hitting Tim on his >head to prevent others from doing it. I believe that they are trying >to avoid a CART/IRL situation in the (very promising) online racing scene. >Furthermore, the (in my opinion absurd) US copyright laws are forcing >them to do this. >Just my 0.02$ >Folco >-- >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Folco Banfi | Check out the "records for sale", "NASCAR" >Universite de Fribourg | and "Charts" sections of my home page! >Institut d'Informatique | >Chemin du Musee 3 | >1700 Fribourg, Switzerland | >Tel. +41.37.29.84.79 | >http://www-iiuf.unifr.ch/groups/sde/users/banfi/home.html >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a somewhat useless asside, NASCAR/Papyrus/Sierra cannot use the names of liquor and/or tobacco products online or in our stand alone games. I believe there is only 1 state that explicitly forbids it (California), but software companies as well as the liquor & tobacco compaines have all agreed to stay away from each other (well, at least when it comes to putting logos in games!). So, no Online Winston Cup for the NASCAR Racing League. Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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> Johns) writes: > >That's true. With that in mind, it makes you appreciate Papyrus' > >effort to come up with fake names in their carsets.. ;-) > A story related to this. Just before we released IndyCar Racing II for DOS > we ran our fake names by our lawyers. On THE DAY WE CUT THE GOLD CD, the > lawyers called and said we couldn't use the name Enerjuice (which we had > used in NASCAR). It seems that a company had applied for a trademark on > the name Enerjuice (some sports-related drink, no doubt). We were > frantically editing artwork literally hours before the CD had to make the > Fed Ex shipment to the duplicators.

Must the names be used for actual products in order to be actual trademarks? If not, why don't you apply for trademarks for all your fake trademarks? -- --- Terje Wold Johansen --- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ --- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

As soon as I was told about Enerjuice, that was the first suggestion I made. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Trademarks cost money, and in some cases, big money. I researched into it, and a person that is licenced in trademark laws has to fill out the paper work, ie a lawyer. So, if you have something like NASCAR or Microsoft or McDonald's, where those names/logos are your money makers from sales of tickets, to products, to t-shirts, you probable have enough money to do all of that. Not all of us get that off of a name/logo, so getting a registered trademark is not worth it. It is easier to just copyright it, and go on, that is free. Chris

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>Must the names be used for actual products in order to be actual >trademarks? If not, why don't you apply for trademarks for all >your fake trademarks? >-- >--- Terje Wold Johansen >--- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ >--- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

>Trademarks cost money, and in some cases, big money. I researched >into it, and a person that is licenced in trademark laws has to fill >out the paper work, ie a lawyer. Not true. There is no requirement for the person filing the papers to have a license of any sort. Arguably, there are plenty of traps for the uninitiated to fall into, which is why its generally a good idea to consult an IP attorney when filing for a trademark or patent. Copyright is much simpler, the moment the pen has left the paper, a work is copyright (in any country that is a member of the Berne Convention). However, there are additional protections afforded to you if you take the time to put a copyright mark on the work, and further protections if you file the appropriate paperwork with the PTO. Disclaimer: I'm no legal beagle, take my advice at your own risk. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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>Please, reference this letter: >Alston & Bird >One Atlantic Center >1201 West Peachtree Street >Atlanta, GA 30309-3424 >Martin J. Elgison >May 29, 1996 >Mr. Tim Wortman >Decatur, IL > Re: NASSCAR >Dear Mr. Wortman, >We are in receipt of your letter of May 12, 1996 regarding your >NASSCAR website. We thank you for your willingness to cooperate with >Nascar in its endeavor to protect the NASCAR trademarks, and we hope >that you will continue to support Nascar racing in the future. >However, while we certainly appreciate the many changes you have made >to your website in compliance with our requests, we notice that you >are still using the mark NASSCAR in your website, albeit as an acronym >for a new organization name. In addition, you have not removed the >graphic of the NASCAR Racing box which displays the multi-colored >NASCAR bar logo. >Because your continued use of the mark NASSCAR threatens to dilute the >distinctive quality of the NASCAR mark and to create a likelihood of >confusion among consumers, we must again insist that you stop any >further use of "NASSCAR" as a trademark or as an abbreviation for your >organization name. Although the mark NASSCAR is not identical in >appearance to the NASCAR mark, both marks are pronounced the same and >are identical in all material aspects. Additionally, the mark is used >in connection with a computer simulated racing league that utilizes an >official Nascar-licensed product. As such, there is still a good >possibility that consumers would be confused as to the relationship >between Nascar and your organization, despite the fact that you have >incorporated the disclaimer that we requested.

Hack..... So, if the Armani Suited oh great emperators at Nascar are so worried about confusing we poor lowly downtrodden consumers why don't they include an email address where we consumers can tell them to quit trying to jack us off in the corner? What? You mean to tell me *no* one at nascar can *afford* internet access or email? AWWWW!!! Smoke N.A.S.C.A.R.: Need Another Seven Completely Arrogant Rednecks.

through ***space: You know, if I were NASCAR and I was faced with having to deal with people like you who don't have all the facts and spout off without knowing the situation, I would probably avoid the Internet too. -- IWCCCARS Project Coordinator http://www.xmission.com/~iwcc/project.htm Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

"Create a likelihood of confusion for the consumer" Gimme a ***in break !! They sure as hell dont mind selling you a bumper sticker with their logo on it for $ 8.00 They just cant figure out how to make a buck off it !!! Mick

>"Create a likelihood of confusion for the consumer" Gimme a ***in break >!! They sure as hell dont mind selling you a bumper sticker with their >logo on it for $ 8.00 >They just cant figure out how to make a buck off it !!! >Mick Uhmm Hmmm, Yep, *Mick*, With a mouth like that hangin out the window we can only presume that you owned Nascar Racing for about 3 seconds before setting the damage to none and roaring around Taledega the wrong way eh redneck? There are far more reasonable ways to gripe than this senseless childish foulmouth blathering. Of course it does require more than a 3rd grade education to grasp the concept :) -- Trifle *NOT* with sleeping Earnharts. ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- *** Trifle Not With Sleeping Cougars ***

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> >I'm sure to get flamed for this, BUT... keep in mind this is nothing > >personal and I'm just trying to be objective. > >sent shooting through ***space: > >>One word folks..........B*******. This is exactly what NASCAR thinks > >>of you, the computer sim driver. > >I couldn't say this until I'd talked to NASCAR personally. Like I > >ever will... > >> A trademark issue.....I really don't think so. How many web sites are > >>out there that use the word NASCAR, a picture of the Nascar Racing > >>game box, etc etc. How many NASSCAR drivers really got confused, > >>thinking I was actually at the race last week and beat Dale Earnhardt > >>to the line? > >Well, the problem with NASSCAR (at least as I can see it in the > >gentleman's letter) is not just the word NASCAR or the box logo -- > >it's that NASSCAR is in that distinctive multicolored bar logo that is > >EXACTLY like the NASCAR logo. That, coupled with the NASCAR box, is > >close enough to the actual logo that it might be considered a > >violation. Close enough, at least, for them to write to you. I don't > >think this has anything to do with them thinking you're affiliated > >with NASCAR -- just that they think your site mimics the trademarked > >items too closely. > >>It's all dollars and cents folks. NASSCAR commands the attention of > >>alot of computer sim drivers. Now that NASCAR has sanctioned Papyrus > >>as its 13th division, it's quite clear that NASCAR wants full control > >>of the simulated racing world. > >I don't think so. I think that now that NASCAR is entering into the > >sim-racing field, they don't want any confusion as to which site is > >legally licensed to use their logo. Simple. Otherwise, if they WERE > >trying to take over sim racing, they'd have gone after IVGA, IVL, IGN, > >etc. etc. etc. as well -- but they don't, because they have unique > >logos and names. It has nothing to do with the size or importance of > >a racing series, either. Just the trademarks. > >My guess is when Daytona found out about the patch, they might have > >alerted NASCAR to be more vigilant to sim racing and possible > >trademark violations. They are, after all, legally bound by the terms > >of the trademark law to defend it, or they'll lose the rights to it. > >>I guess I'll rename the series.......NASUCKS. Think anyone would be > >>confused about the meaning of that? > >I certainly am not. > >>Please, not just for the sake of NASSCAR, but for the sake of all > >>series similar to it which operate today or may operate in the future, > >>write or call NASCAR and let them know what you think of their latest > >>endeavor. > >I'm not going to, because in this case I think they have legal > >justification for their actions. I would be on their side as well if > >they wrote ME a letter getting on me for using sponsors' look-and-feel > >in IWCCCARS -- because frankly I am. > >Truth be told, NASSCAR is popular enough that it wouldn't hurt you to > >change your logo design. That would clear up this whole problem. My > >understanding is that they don't care about the NAME, just that your > >logos mimic their trademarked ones too closely. > >-- > >IWCCCARS Project Coordinator > >Racer's Choice Web Directory Editor > >Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS > I have to agree with you entirely, (sorry Tim) but, as already stated, > if NASCAR didn't pursue their trademark rights, they'd lost them. > Besides, ever think that with NASCAR 2 coming soon, and Hawaii being > the prototype for the '13th NASCAR division' maybe they're a little > pissed off 'cause Tim beat them to using NASSCAR? (I know its a > longshot, but who knows? stranger things have happened!) > I also hope NASCAR, Papyrus and Daytona officials get together (maybe > even IMS?) so us modem racers can run a full season! (ha! yea, sure!) > -John > They're not bugs! They're random features!

Precisely, you have really hit the nail on the head. (kudos) I am in strong belief that this is the main reason for Tim's series even being found by the NASCAR lawyers. Don't be surprised if the logo NASSCAR is soon copyrighted and used by NASCAR , "sometime in 1997" James

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>> I have to agree with you entirely, (sorry Tim) but, as already stated, >> if NASCAR didn't pursue their trademark rights, they'd lost them. >> Besides, ever think that with NASCAR 2 coming soon, and Hawaii being >> the prototype for the '13th NASCAR division' maybe they're a little >> pissed off 'cause Tim beat them to using NASSCAR? (I know its a >> longshot, but who knows? stranger things have happened!) >> I also hope NASCAR, Papyrus and Daytona officials get together (maybe >> even IMS?) so us modem racers can run a full season! (ha! yea, sure!) >> -John >> They're not bugs! They're random features! >Precisely, you have really hit the nail on the head. (kudos) I am in >strong belief that this is the main reason for Tim's series even being >found by the NASCAR lawyers. Don't be surprised if the logo NASSCAR is >soon copyrighted and used by NASCAR , "sometime in 1997" >James

Neither NASCAR nor Papyrus has or had any interest in using "NASSCAR" as a name for the NASCAR Racing League. From the inception of the idea, it has always been called either "NASCAR Online", or "NASCAR Racing League". The reason that NASCAR's lawyers became aware of it is (I am assuming this... I haven't talked to them) exactly as I pointed out in previous posts. NASCAR has jumped into this business with both feet & they are doing what you might want to consider "due dilligence". That's why you see them spotting things like "NASSCAR" & the infamous "Daytona patch". Ed Martin Producer, Series Director NASCAR Racing League Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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>through ***space: >>Hack..... >>So, if the Armani Suited oh great emperators at Nascar are so worried >>about confusing we poor lowly downtrodden consumers why don't they >>include an email address where we consumers can tell them to quit >>trying to jack us off in the corner? What? You mean to tell me *no* >>one at nascar can *afford* internet access or email? AWWWW!!! >You know, if I were NASCAR and I was faced with having to deal with >people like you who don't have all the facts and spout off without >knowing the situation, I would probably avoid the Internet too. >-- >IWCCCARS Project Coordinator >http://www.xmission.com/~iwcc/project.htm >Hawaii Racer ID: IWCCCARS

I agree with you completly on this ones attitude however, I do notice that they seem interested enough in the 'Net to give Tim endless grief. <shrug>. Ron

Sorry bout the multiple post. My reader has been acting funky lately and when I tried to post it just continued to show posting without giving message posted successfully so I tried to post it a couple more times and it looks like they all ended up going through. Ron