ICR2 Pentium Pro 200 - THE TRUTH!

Hi sim racers: Every once in a while someone asks about running sims on P6 machines. Here is my impression of siming on my machine. I'll be posting a similar report about EF2000 in the flight-sim newsgroup. My equipment: Supermicro P6DOF, dual P6 motherboard. Debugged (B step) Orion chip set. I have one P6 installed. 32 Meg. Fast wide SCSI. Matrox 4 Meg. Matrox, not Univbe's, VESA driver. SoundBlaster 16. This is a working machine, used for Unix development. After performing development all week long it likes to relax with racing and flight sims. Intel has a replacement for my Orion chip set, called the Natoma. New motherboards are shipping with them. Alex Fernandez posted to this group that He'll be getting one this week. He said he will be doing some tests too. So, before he posts his results, I'll tell you what life is like with my obsolete piece of junk. I do road racing, almost exclusively. I usually follow the indycar series through the season by racing on the next road/street course to be televised. However I feel it is easier to standardize a frame rate test on an oval track. The raw number test: Michigan - no damage, ace with 15 gallons, no qualifying, start in back, on right side. Realism - 7% length, no damage, everything else off, constant weather. Opponents - Number 31, strength 100%, Drawing 32 forward, 4 back, heard 2. Driving Aids - manual everything, no auto spin recovery. Setup - I drive with a T1, analog everything, linear steering, no break help, manual shifting. No pace lap. Graphics - all options on except skidmarks. max framerate 30. Sound is default. The raw number: When the flag drops, and the field is drawn before me, the skidmarks are visible between the two rows of cars at min 20 FPS (Frame's Per Second). They seem to start being painted, but are no longer painted immediately after the start at 22 FPS. The longer the race proceeds, the more "non-repeatable" things become, so I conclude the test after a lap or two. However, if, at 22 FPS, I follow the "train" around the track, the skid marks come back by turn 3. And they stay back. In order to keep this "repeatable", I'm resisting the temptation to pass any cars. In fact I allow the car starting beside me to get ahead, in my view. But I try to be tucked up close behind the next to the last. You can see the track "under construction" in the distance. I don't know what's happening, perhaps as the field spreads out in front of me,there is less detail to draw. The skid marks wink in and out, it's quite obvious, at min 23 FPS. This happens even while the field continues to spread out. Living with the P6: Setting the skids to auto has some historical precedence, but it's not the way I would choose to race. After running the test, I made the following changes to the graphics option. Everything on except grandstand detail and dust, which are auto, and 25 FPS min. Everything else is the same as in the FPS test. I then went to Laguna Seca, ace setup, 15 gallons. It's butter, it's like the movies, the crowd blinked out briefly after the start, the grand stands are only visible for a second. by the time I got to the stands at turn 4, I had passed a few cars, other cars had disappeared down the track, and the crowds sees to be solid in the stands. Coming out of the corkscrew, I could see the track "under construction" around turn 6. ICR1, repeat "1", was never this smooth on my 486/66. An un-expected benefit, no marbles. I used to run ICR2 on my 486/66, high rez, most graphics off or auto. Traction was ridiculous. There is definitely less downforce in ICR2, so there is less traction, but it is drivable. I do miss standing on it through Laguna's turn 4, 6 and 9. I'm eagar to try different people's setups. One complaint I remember reading is that the car would spin for no reason on that fast right bend in the middle of Long Beach's Shoreline Drive. It feels fine to me. Should you buy a P6? This machine works for a living. I don't think I would buy it for racing. Perhaps the owners of some fast Pentiums will duplicate this test, or come up with better tests, then we will all know. If you have any questions, feel free to post, E mail is OK, but I'd rather everybody who is interested have a chance to listen in. Am I happy? I'll let you know after Alex tells us what a REAL computer will do. Then I tried my home town track, here in Portland, ... OH MY GOD, 131 LINES? You have suffered enough. bye. Larry P.S. Need Unix/C development? I'm free right now. And I want to get a 21" monitor. =========================================================================== Larry "Dragon" Lindstrom. Consultant - Unix - X Window - Comms Three things I don't like about President Clinton: 1) He's spineless 2) He's dishonest 3) He's the most principled and honorable candidate running for President. Hey, add a little music, that could be a campaign commercial!

> The skid marks wink in and out, it's quite obvious, at min 23 FPS. > This happens even while the field continues to spread out. You're telling me that after a $1,500+ upgrade I can still only expect 23 FPS in IndyCarII? Is this some kind of cruel joke? -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

>> The skid marks wink in and out, it's quite obvious, at min 23 FPS. >> This happens even while the field continues to spread out. >You're telling me that after a $1,500+ upgrade I can still only expect 23 FPS in

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>IndyCarII? Is this some kind of cruel joke? >-- >Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences >Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ >Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick

No...The P Pro is optimized for WinNT. DOS games see no remarkable improvement. Thanks Intel. Mike

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> >> The skid marks wink in and out, it's quite obvious, at min 23 FPS. >> This happens even while the field continues to spread out. > >You're telling me that after a $1,500+ upgrade I can still only expect 23 FPS > in >IndyCarII? Is this some kind of cruel joke? >

No, I'm pretty sure my P166 will do better than that on the test, I will post after I try it out. Clark

Here are my preliminary test results: Supermicro P6SNF, single P6 motherboard. Natoma (440FX) chip set which supports concurrent PCI! ditto 128Meg. Fast SCSI-2 (Adaptec 2940) ditto, Millenium 4MB, BIOS v2.0 Tropez Plus My machine, when I'm not screwing around with it, is used for 3D animation. modeling, and rendering, and of course NASCAR, and ICR2. That's me. I just got it yesterday! I wouldn't call it a piece of junk! ditto! Same track. Start at back, no qualifying. ditto Opponents - Number 32, strength 100%, Drawing 32 forward, 32 back. ditto. ditto except I use a TSW (I love it!) and pace lap turned on. I find that it stresses the frame rate more and it's the way I run the races. ditto! Sound is 8-bit stereo. Strange that mono and stereo had the same test results for my system. My results: The numbers in paranthesis are from my Supermicro P55CMS motherboard with 256kB PBS cache and 100Mhz Pentium. With all textures ON, in preseason testing, I get 30 fps!!(18fps). with no flicker on the skid marks! The following results represent the max frame rate with no flickering of the skid marks taken from the start of the pace lap to when the green flag drops. This is where the biggest hit occurs. Before race on the pace lap with ALL textures on: ICR2 (P5-100Mhz) NASCAR -------- ------------- 23fps (11fps) 20fps All textures ON except asphalt and grass: 28fps (15fps) 25fps All textures ON except asphalt, grass, wall, grandstand, and objects 30fps (18fps) 30fps I found Laguna to be slightly smoother than Michigan I would wait a couple of months or three for them to work out the bugs in the BIOS (It's an AMI BIOS Rev. 0.1!!!???) I have a couple of problems with it but nothing major. If anyone has any questions on the motherboard or BIOS, just email me. I'm happy. I think that 23-28fps is pretty good improvement but I don't know if it's worth shelling out that extra dough for games only. >=========================================================================== >Larry "Dragon" Lindstrom. Consultant - Unix - X Window - Comms ********************************************************************** ********************************************************************** Alex Fernandez This signature file serves no other purpose "Don't know nothin'!" than to try to avoid those unholy NNTP errors I keep getting using Netscape 2.0 Mail when I follow up on articles where there is more included text than new text. Does everyone have this problem? Is there a better workaround than this stupid, long and useless signature file? If so, let me know. I hope this is enough new text. ********************************************************************** **********************************************************************

Let's not forget that most of these systems are using a 33 Mhz Bus no matter how fast the CPU is. There comes a point of dimishing returns when the CPU is faster, but everything else is just as slow. bryon -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is still amazing how many people think that the year 2000 is the start of the next century. Bryon Lape

If you had any follow ups to my original post about ICR2 on Pentium Pros, questions, comments or flames, please email them to me. My news server went down shorty after I posted it. Thanks Larry

writes True enough. The next quantum leaps are going to come from something like S-DRAM which is expected to allow motherboard speeds up to 75/80Mhz, or else the widespread implementation of PCI2.1 or higher, which will allow PCI access at 66Mhz instead of the current 33Mhz. There comes a point when an EVEN faster cpu just doesn't do very much more. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://www.dcn.ed.ac.uk/pulse/index.htm \::/ \._______\

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>writes >> Let's not forget that most of these systems are using a 33 Mhz Bus no >>matter how fast the CPU is. There comes a point of dimishing returns when >>the CPU is faster, but everything else is just as slow. >True enough. The next quantum leaps are going to come from something >like S-DRAM which is expected to allow motherboard speeds up to >75/80Mhz, or else the widespread implementation of PCI2.1 or higher, >which will allow PCI access at 66Mhz instead of the current 33Mhz. >There comes a point when an EVEN faster cpu just doesn't do very much >more.

Hi racers: Thanks for responding to my report. I have checked my Motherboard's manual, the Supermicro has a 33 MHz interface to the PPro. Are there faster ones? I posted that report because people were wondering what the machine would do. I am hoping someone will duplicate the test, or conceive better tests, with Pentiums, and other Pentium Pros. I tested at Michigan, under the conditions I stated, because it seems to be a good repeatable benchmark. And the banked ovals force the processor to draw all of the cars. When I said it is obvious when the skid marks wink out, that's all I meant. They are painted, then they aren't painted, but the sim still seems to drive fine. I race under different conditions than I tested, as I stated. I am VERY pleased with the performance at Laguna Seca, Detroit, Vancouver and every other track I have tried. I am getting 25 to 30 FPS, if the "auto" works as we all believe it does. The grandstand details rarely blink out, and when they do, it's not like the sim comes slamming to a crawl. Acceptable frame rates are issues of individual taste. Movies run at 24 FPS and fields are drawn on TVs at 30 FPS. These have proven to be the minumum FPS to fool the eye. Reality has an continuous presentation so we should never be satisfied with these "minimum" rates. I hope someone will run, and post, tests when F1GP2 comes out, we'll want to know if we can use our old P7s or if we should pay the big bucks for the new P8s. Larry

From what I understand Intel went out ona limb with the PPro chip because they designeed it for 32bit programs and it from what I have read in PC magazine it runs 16bit programs (icr2, nascar, etc.) slower than normal pentiums. Correct me if I am wrong but from every thing I have read a PPro at 200Mhz will run icr2 slower than a 166 Pent. John Buckley

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>From what I understand Intel went out ona limb with the PPro chip >because they designeed it for 32bit programs and it from what I >have read in PC magazine it runs 16bit programs (icr2, nascar, >etc.) slower than normal pentiums. Correct me if I am wrong but >from every thing I have read a PPro at 200Mhz will run icr2 >slower than a 166 Pent. > > John Buckley

You're wrong on this one. Alex Fernandez posted his results with P6-200 and MGA Millenium and using his test methodology, I got about 5 fps slower performance out of my P5-166 with MGA Millenium on ICR2. Clark

> Correct me if I am wrong but >from every thing I have read a PPro at 200Mhz will run icr2 >slower than a 166 Pent. You are wrong. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Pemtium Pro is afflicted by unstable chipset and is also very sensitive to the way it is configured. Without a carefully controlled test, it is impossible to draw any comparative benchmarks. Bottom line is a PPro is FAR too expensive just now, and NO-ONE should buy one only for ICR2/GP2/NASCAR. If you want to play sims, fire into a P166/P200 (although P133 is best value), if you are looking at WinNT and also enjoy sims, THEN it's worthwhile looking at a PPro. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ http://www.dcn.ed.ac.uk/pulse/index.htm \::/ \._______\

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> >From what I understand Intel went out ona limb with the PPro chip > >because they designeed it for 32bit programs and it from what I > >have read in PC magazine it runs 16bit programs (icr2, nascar, > >etc.) slower than normal pentiums. Correct me if I am wrong but > >from every thing I have read a PPro at 200Mhz will run icr2 > >slower than a 166 Pent. > > John Buckley > You're wrong on this one. Alex Fernandez posted his results with P6-200 and > MGA Millenium and using his test methodology, I got about 5 fps slower > performance out of my P5-166 with MGA Millenium on ICR2. > ClarkI also agree with you - I had a NEC Pentium Pro 150 with a Matrox

Millennium video card and the thing got the equivalent fps as a P75 Clone - about 55 fps. It was totally absurd. My P133 with Matrox gets 125 fps. I'm looking at upgrading to a P166 which should give me 145 fps.

>>You're wrong on this one. Alex Fernandez posted his results with P6-200 and >>MGA Millenium and using his test methodology, I got about 5 fps slower >>performance out of my P5-166 with MGA Millenium on ICR2. >Pemtium Pro is afflicted by unstable chipset and is also very sensitive >to the way it is configured. Without a carefully controlled test, it is >impossible to draw any comparative benchmarks. >Bottom line is a PPro is FAR too expensive just now, and NO-ONE should >buy one only for ICR2/GP2/NASCAR. If you want to play sims, fire into a >P166/P200 (although P133 is best value), if you are looking at WinNT and >also enjoy sims, THEN it's worthwhile looking at a PPro. >Cheers! >John Forget the Intel P200. If you want fast, the Cyrix P200 KICKS IT'S ASS. Winmarks over 100. I know Winmarks don't matter in DOS, but they are the first ones to have machine to do this. 75 Mhz cpu bus...FAST. Check the Mags for more info. Mike

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> Forget the Intel P200. If you want fast, the Cyrix P200 KICKS IT'S ASS. > Winmarks over 100. I know Winmarks don't matter in DOS, but they are > the first ones to have machine to do this. > 75 Mhz cpu bus...FAST. Check the Mags for more info. > Mike

Okay but.... Games like ICR2 are "optimized" for Pentiums. Does ICR2 still recognize the Cyrix chip as a Pentium and run the optimized code? I think that Need for Speed does likewise, recognizing a Pentium and running in SVGA instead of VGA. EF2000 comes up with a Pentium logo when it starts up when it reads a Pentium. I assume they get this from the BIOS; is a Cyrix a Pentium in BIOS? Does Rick Genter have this answer for this, or anyone else? -- Meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

>I assume they get this from the BIOS; is a Cyrix a Pentium in BIOS? >Does Rick Genter have this answer for this, or anyone else? We do not use the BIOS to determine whether the processor is a Pentium. We use the CPUID instruction to determine whether the processor is a Pentium. I don't know if this works with a Cyrix chip or not. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line, Inc.

I have a 686 166, how would I be able to tell if I'm getting the optimixed code or not? I've always used the -h option when running the sim, so I don't know if it would anyway. I know that Win95 ids the chip as a 486, microsoft says thats because the os was written before the specs on the 6x86 ( M1) were recieved. ( the NexGen 586 comes up as a 386 ). So far the only program i've had correctly id it is ZD labs Winbech, Norton Utilities tells me i got a 300 MHz 486 :-). Is there a way to trick icr into using the optimized code anyway, or is it all internal?

The following is an update after some fiddling around with the BIOS settings and the 440FX chip set registers. Here are my preliminary test results: My equipment: Supermicro P6SNF, single P6 motherboard. Natoma (440FX) chip set which supports concurrent PCI! 128Meg. RAM (DOS only sees 64MB) Matrox Millenium 4 Meg. Matrox, not Univbe's, VESA driver. BIOS v2.0 Tropez Plus The conditions for testing are: Note that I'm using NASCAR Racing for the Millenium version. Michigan - no qualifying, start in back, on right side. Opponents - Number MAX (31 for ICR2, and 38 for NASCAR Racing, Drawing ALL opponents forward and back, (back doesn't matter since I tested being able to see all opponents in front of me), heard 3. The whole test consisted of just the pace lap since that's the only time you'll ever see all the cars drawn ahead of you which stresses the maximum load on the computer. Graphics - ALL textures on except skidmarks set to auto. Using min and max frame rate at the same setting, I run the entire pace lap and adjust the min and max frame rate setting until the skid marks DON'T flicker at ALL. This final frame rate setting is the minimum that the computer will run. Of course it will run faster frame rates once the cars start to spread out during the length of the race. Sound is 8-bit stereo. Strange that mono and stereo had the same test results for my system. My results: The numbers in parenthesis( ) are from my Supermicro P55CMS motherboard with 256kB PBS cache and 100Mhz Pentium. With all textures ON, in preseason testing, I get 30 fps!!(18fps). with no flicker on the skid marks! The following results represent the max frame rate with no flickering of the skid marks taken from the start of the pace lap to when the green flag drops. This is where the biggest hit occurs. Before race on the pace lap with ALL textures on: ICR2 (P5-100Mhz) NASCAR -------- ------------- 23fps (11fps) 20fps All textures ON except asphalt and grass: 28fps (15fps) 25fps All textures ON except asphalt, grass, wall, grandstand, and objects 30fps (18fps) 30fps The only thing new that I add to this is that using a utility written by John Hinkley that enables PCI write posting, banked VGA Write Combining and SVGA linear frame buffer Write Combining in the 440FX and Orion chip sets, I get a big improvement in frame rates for NASCAR racing, no improvement for ICR2. Anyway, with the above options enabled, I get 27 fps!!, with no flickering of the skid marks at all. Keep in mind that this is for the Matrox Millenium version of NASCAR racing. I'll load up the plain version and do the same test to see if there is a difference. Feel free to email me with any questions. By the way, I don't post this to brag about my system. It's for those that are single and don't have anything else to do with their money(assuming they have plenty of it) and want to run these sims as fast as possible. Alex Fernandez