More thoughts on Nascar2

Is there going to be the ability to look to the side virtual***pit style? I think that if there were 5 view positions (straight ahead, 45 left or right and 90 left or right) it could increase the realism quite a bit.If you still had a good forward perspective I think that the 45 left could realy help on the ovals and give a bit more of a sense of peripheral vision. I just dont know if a monitor could provide enough real-estate to pull this off. Maybe at 800x600 or higher resolution. Will the sim support these higher resolutions?

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>Is there going to be the ability to look to the side virtual***pit style? I >think that if there were 5 view positions (straight ahead, 45 left or right and >90 left or right) it could increase the realism quite a bit.If you still had a >good forward perspective I think that the 45 left could realy help on the ovals > and give a bit more of a sense of peripheral vision. I just dont know if a >monitor could provide enough real-estate to pull this off. Maybe at 800x600 or >higher resolution. Will the sim support these higher resolutions?

I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm undertaking through the corners... It WOULD be nice though. If I had some extra paddle's on my wheel perhaps I could move it left and right and continue to use my thumbs for the gear shift buttons. Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

(Stuart Booth) writes: >>Is there going to be the ability to look to the side virtual***pit style? I >>think that if there were 5 view positions (straight ahead, 45 left or right and >>90 left or right) it could increase the realism quite a bit.If you still had a >>good forward perspective I think that the 45 left could realy help on the ovals >> and give a bit more of a sense of peripheral vision. I just dont know if a >>monitor could provide enough real-estate to pull this off. Maybe at 800x600 or

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>>higher resolution. Will the sim support these higher resolutions? >I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm >undertaking through the corners... >It WOULD be nice though. If I had some extra paddle's on my wheel >perhaps I could move it left and right and continue to use my thumbs >for the gear shift buttons. >Stuart >-- >Stuart Booth >Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

Maybe Papyrus will include two extra hands to use these features. That way we could look side to side, drive, wave, and drink a beer (or Pepsi) all at the same time. Mike

I might as well jump into the thick of it also! One thing I've thought would make a nice addition would be overlap indicators. They could be as simple as 2 lights that would illuminate whenever a car is along side of you (Their front bumper is even with your rear bumper). One for the left and one for the right. I find the mirrors don't always give enough perspective to determine whether you need to leave room for another car on the inside or outside.

>I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm >undertaking through the corners... >It WOULD be nice though. If I had some extra paddle's on my wheel >perhaps I could move it left and right and continue to use my thumbs >for the gear shift buttons. What they need is VR headset support, with headset-tracking used to look around. If Nascar had *that*, I might just invest in one of those headsets. Joe

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>>I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm >>undertaking through the corners... >>It WOULD be nice though. If I had some extra paddle's on my wheel >>perhaps I could move it left and right and continue to use my thumbs >>for the gear shift buttons. >What they need is VR headset support, with headset-tracking used to >look around. If Nascar had *that*, I might just invest in one of those >headsets. >Joe

As I understand it, the resolution of the currently available headsets is too low to really make the game enjoyable. Maybe it's just my eyes, but when I used one I had trouble maintaining focused vision. As a result, the game was not enjoyable. (Spending too many hours reading all these posts :) ) However, I have heard that VFX is currently developing a new version of it's headset that supports a higher resolution. (640 x 480 I think.) Perhaps then they will have mass appeal and the prices will drop. Mike

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>As I understand it, the resolution of the currently available headsets >is too low to really make the game enjoyable. Maybe it's just my eyes, >but when I used one I had trouble maintaining focused vision. As a >result, the game was not enjoyable. (Spending too many hours reading >all these posts :) ) >However, I have heard that VFX is currently developing a new version >of it's headset that supports a higher resolution. (640 x 480 I >think.) Perhaps then they will have mass appeal and the prices will >drop.

I haven't tried the headsets, my I've heard a lot of comments similar to yours. But remember that Nascar 2 isn't due suntil late Fall, which means that the 640x480 headsets might be available. Have you heard of any timelines for the 2nd-generation headsets? Joe

>(Stuart Booth) writes: >>I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm >>undertaking through the corners... >Maybe Papyrus will include two extra hands to use these features. That >way we could look side to side, drive, wave, and drink a beer (or >Pepsi) all at the same time. ROFL! How about a second set of eyeballs so that I can look to see where my H2H opponent is on the track without smacking the wall? Hmmmm, any bets on my having done THAT before? No? Didn't think so! Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

>I might as well jump into the thick of it also! One thing I've thought would make a nice addition would be overlap >indicators. They could be as simple as 2 lights that would illuminate whenever a car is along side of you (Their front >bumper is even with your rear bumper). One for the left and one for the right. I find the mirrors don't always give >enough perspective to determine whether you need to leave room for another car on the inside or outside. Not sure about this one to be honest. I think the mirrors in ICR2, however unrealistic, really do help once you've learned to "read" them. Lights for me wouldn't do the trick well enough. They compensate well for what is a tricky problem. Until we get hi-res helmets that is. There would be too much margin for error with lights, since they're digital: on or off. Where do you place their 'on' position vs their 'off' position? Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

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>>I wish I had enough hands to utilise a view point adjuster when I'm >>undertaking through the corners... >>It WOULD be nice though. If I had some extra paddle's on my wheel >>perhaps I could move it left and right and continue to use my thumbs >>for the gear shift buttons. >What they need is VR headset support, with headset-tracking used to >look around. If Nascar had *that*, I might just invest in one of those >headsets.

Absolutely. I don't mind admitting that the Papyrus products PARTLY drive my hardware purchasing/upgrading (honest!). Well, if it wasn't for their quality sims I wouldn't have had the urge to spend a stack of cash on a steering wheel that's for sure. Anyway, if a VR helmet were supported in a quality sim, I'd probably buy one too. But at SVGA? How expensive are those babies? I also quite like 3D games such as System Shock and Duke3D, for which they'd also be wonderful. But it's what Papyrus/Microprose support that would matter for my shortlist. Feedback from the car and a VR helmet. MMmmmm. Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

>Absolutely. I don't mind admitting that the Papyrus products PARTLY >drive my hardware purchasing/upgrading (honest!). Well, if it wasn't >for their quality sims I wouldn't have had the urge to spend a stack >of cash on a steering wheel that's for sure. Anyway, if a VR helmet >were supported in a quality sim, I'd probably buy one too. But at >SVGA? How expensive are those babies? They start at around $800, there's a few in the under-$1000 range. But these are first generation units, VGA only (320x200 for each eye). The second generation ones will be SVGA with a similar or lower price. I'm not sure if these will be out by the time Nascar 2 is or not. I'd also consider getting an SVGA one for Flight Unlimited, the aerobatic flying simulator. It supports real head tracking, i.e., turning your head changes where you are looking, but you still steer with the joystick. They (Looking Glass Technologies) are working on a combat version - imagine how much VR would improve that, being able to look sideways and see where enemy planes are. Joe

>I haven't tried the headsets, my I've heard a lot of comments similar >to yours. But remember that Nascar 2 isn't due suntil late Fall, which >means that the 640x480 headsets might be available. Have you heard of >any timelines for the 2nd-generation headsets? >Joe Unfortunately, I haven't heard of a date. Perhaps VFX has a home page with more info. However, I do feel that unless Papyrus has already made the decision to support such headsets in NCR2 they will not be supported. My personal opinion is that although they would be nice, I feel they will not be supported in NCR2. Mike

>imagine how much VR would improve that, being able to >look sideways and see where enemy planes are. WITHOUT having to press a button and use your joystick. 2 separate actions that would come very naturally. Oh yes. I can't see VR helmets being supported by the likes of Papyrus for some time to come though. I was wondering how much something like that would affect the frame rate. Rather than having a fixed view from the ***pit you've got scenery and viewpoint moving. But then it occured to me that this wouldn't be too much different from the cameras. So perhaps it would be easier than we think. Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

>WITHOUT having to press a button and use your joystick. 2 separate >actions that would come very naturally. Oh yes. >I can't see VR helmets being supported by the likes of Papyrus for >some time to come though. Looking Glass Technologies supports it in Flight Unlimited, and they're just a little startup, FU is their first program. They're much smaller than Papyrus. I'm sure if VR moves closer to the mainstream (which at this point is more a matter of quality than cost - the SVGA units should be pretty good) that we'll see widespread support before long. Yeah, it doesn't seem to affect the frame-rate *too* much in the replays - you'd probably just have to turn a few details off. Or, since we're probably talking about the Fall/Christmass season, get a good 3D accelerator card (along with the new Thrustmaster force-feedback steering wheel - better start saving money! <g>). It seems like a long way off until you think that a year from now, we may very well be playing in a multi-player, VR-enabled, feedback-steering environment. All these technologies are coming together now and should be widely available by then. Joe

>I can't see VR helmets being supported by the likes of Papyrus for >some time to come though. I was wondering how much something like that >would affect the frame rate. Rather than having a fixed view from the >cockpit you've got scenery and viewpoint moving. But then it occured >to me that this wouldn't be too much different from the cameras. So >perhaps it would be easier than we think. It would be just like using arcade mode, where the entire screen buffer is changing every frame, so you would have to expect a lower frame rate. Using the in-cockpit view, the***pit itself remains static except for the guages, which reduces the amount of time it takes to render a frame. However, if stereo vision is supported, you have to render two separate frames from two different vantage points, which doubles the overhead. Dave "davids" Sparks Sequoia Motorsports

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>>WITHOUT having to press a button and use your joystick. 2 separate >>actions that would come very naturally. Oh yes. >>I can't see VR helmets being supported by the likes of Papyrus for >>some time to come though. >Looking Glass Technologies supports it in Flight Unlimited, and >they're just a little startup, FU is their first program. They're much >smaller than Papyrus.

You mean the first they've published themselves? They wrote Ultima Underworld 1 and 2, and System Shock previously, but these were all published by Origin/EA. All games I like too! How does the TM force-feedback wheel work? I mean, how does it know when to feed back to the user? I would have thought that that was going to require a redesigned joystick port, unless the standard port supports enough bi-directional signals to enable input to the PC AND output from the PC. Plus, doesn't the s/w have to talk to the device? That's something that I would have thought would hold things back: making an improved, standardised, 2-way joystick port IFF one is required - I really don't know for sure! Hmmmm, maybe we don't need one. Won't USB (Universal Serial Bus for devices such as mice, keyboards etc) happily handle such a joystick? The newest steppings of the Triton ][ mo'bo's now support USB I believe. Perhaps we'll see this being used more for 'our' devices in a year or so... Multiplayer is certainly almost there. Pity it's all so scattered at the moment: Hawaii and British Telecom's own Wireplay for instance. Perhaps I should start designing that***pit after all... Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Godalming, England, UK

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>How does the TM force-feedback wheel work? I mean, how does it know >when to feed back to the user? I would have thought that that was >going to require a redesigned joystick port, unless the standard port >supports enough bi-directional signals to enable input to the PC AND >output from the PC. Plus, doesn't the s/w have to talk to the device? >That's something that I would have thought would hold things back: >making an improved, standardised, 2-way joystick port IFF one is >required - I really don't know for sure!

I don't know, Thrustmaster has announced the product but not too many details yet. But they say it will be available by Fall and software that supports it will be available by Christmass. Among other cool features, the wheel has simulated skidding, different terrains, and accident-feedback. joe