Talladega Woes....

Please forgive me again for complaining but... I love Talladega, it's one of my favorite tracks (I guess that's what keeps me coming back for more). I absolutely hate not being able to race there. The last 4 races there I have been taken out by another car. Oh well, that racing I guess. But after tonight's race, I have officially become fed up with it. We were under yellow and just as the green flag was about to drop, the leader downshifts and blows his engine. Mle insued as 2nd place and myself collided, followed soon by all 30 of the cars behind us. After we all unpiled, we continued with racing. I was still third and the last few laps continued under caution once again. At the finish I see that I had gotten black flagged, I guess for passing the leader (who was out of the race on the restart with his blown engine). I then notice that indeed everyone in the race was black flagged, and the entire field was disqualified. To make matters worse, the only way the lead car had gotten up to first in the first place was by getting an early jump on a previous yellow. It is extremely frustrating not being able to complete a race there without getting hit by someone. I've tried nominating races for skill level (1)-(15) to weed out the newer more inexperienced drivers, but no one joins them. I regrettably have go back to the (0)-(15) races and get caught in the carnage if I want to race at Dega. "Can't we all just get along..." -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick (4)

Adding to what I wrote earlier: Hell, for that matter no one joins these races at any tracks. I have yet to nominate a race that did not include (0) drivers and be able to field drivers. Perhaps once more people have experiences like mine they will avoid the (0) drivers like I would like to do. I don't mean to sound bitter, but am I the only one consistently getting wrecked while on-line, or am I in the minority? It's like I have a 'Kick Me' sign taped to my rear bumper. BTW, I've only caused two wrecks so far. One of those was solo, as I damaged a wheel hitting the wall exiting the tri-oval. The other I have publicly acknowledged in an earlier post. In all the others (they are now countless), I have been just another innocent victim. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick (4)

One of the probs getting drivers above (0) is that there was some kind of a reset of skills or something. I've been testing since last September, granted was only a 2, but was steadily improving. I was forced to change Id's so then I got kicked down to a 1, then reset to 0 when the open beta started. I haven't had enough time this last month to get enough races in to build up my rating. (If I don't stop getting taken out by newbies my rating will never come up tho) Brad

Seems like I always get hit while on the line at `Dega too.Only if I qaulify in the middle somewhere. If I'm up front or in the back, most of the time all is well. Just weave your way around the "wrecks". I'm currently at skill level 3 now, before a 2nd last night at `Dega. ( I only race Talledega for now, until I get more experience with the shorter tracks.) If you're out there nominating a (1)-(15) race, I'll join! --Don Turcotte Username: DonT

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> Seems like I always get hit while on the line at > `Dega too.Only if I qaulify in the middle somewhere. > If I'm up front or in the back, most of the time all > is well. Just weave your way around the "wrecks". I'm > currently at skill level 3 now, before a 2nd last night > at `Dega. ( I only race Talledega for now, until I get > more experience with the shorter tracks.) If you're out > there nominating a (1)-(15) race, I'll join!

I finally got a few good races in. Had one that started with me and one other guy swapping positions for 3 laps in a fight for 5th. The leaders started pulling away so I decided to drop back and work with him to catch up. I bump drafted him and we made up 3 seconds in 4 laps. We were doing 203+ at the end of the back stretch. I even gave him a push past one car we caught up to. Very good driving in that one! It's amazing how good the races can be if drivers just settle down early and cooperate. One BIG gripe I have is how many drivers want the slower cars to run high at Talladega. This makes no sense at all. Cars entering or leaving the pits should stay low. A car that is going slow may be preparing to pit or could be working up to speed. If you damage a wheel in 1 or 2 and need to pit, you HAVE to run the apron through 3 and 4. I had run a damaged car that was topping out at 170 and I stayed low. It was alot easier to pass me on the outside in the tri-oval because a faster car would start at the wall, apex at the edge of the apron (I was well below the line) and drift out to the wall. (Very little change to the faster car's line through the turn.) If I had stayed high, I would have taken an entire lane away from the leaders for a longer period of time. If I was only a couple of mph off the leaders' speed then I would go high to let them through. On other tracks it is easier for slower cars to stay high but not Talladega. What do you upper echelon drivers think? Dan

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> One BIG gripe I have is how many drivers want the slower cars > to run high at Talladega. This makes no sense at all. Cars > entering or leaving the pits should stay low. A car that is > going slow may be preparing to pit or could be working up to > speed. If you damage a wheel in 1 or 2 and need to pit, you > HAVE to run the apron through 3 and 4. > On other tracks it is easier for slower cars to stay high but > not Talladega. What do you upper echelon drivers think?

Well, I'm at skill level (5) so I don't know if I qualify as an upper echelon driver or not, but I'm going to answer anyway since I started this thread initially. The slower cars need to run high in the turns (tri-oval excluded) because the fastest racing line involves drifting below the white line before exiting the turns. I wish it was not this way, but that's how the track is and if you want to be fast (I've run a 197.7 lap) you just have to live with it. You end up loosing speed passing on the outside of slower cars. If they would stay high, you could pass under them without leaving the groove. What you did in the tri-oval is exactly how it should be done. At slower speeds (170 or lower) you can easily enter and stay inside the white line (almost in the grass) of the tri-oval. If however you had stayed on the outside, you force faster cars to try and drop below you to pass before the tri-oval, something that rarely works out well for that car. It is much easier to pass on the outside in the tri-oval than to try to stay on the inside because the entry is so narrow and critical. M***of the story: When damaged stay out of the racing groove no matter where it is. At Talladega this means staying low on the straights, high in the turns, and VERY low in the tri-oval. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick (5)

Eric, I've used your setups and like your advice on racing Tally, but I have to disagree with slower cars running high in turns then moving across traffic to run low in the tri-oval. That is a wreck-causing move for anyone slow to move across traffic just to get out of the faster cars way. I have had a few drivers do exactly that and they usually end up causing a wreck to me or the one behind me. I would much prefer any slower or damaged driver to take the apron instead. I can change my line to drive high around them and I doubt you will loose a position to the driver behind you, because he will have to run the same line you did to get around the slower driver. Anyway,,, IMHO. ;) Later, TIngram

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> I've used your setups and like your advice on racing Tally, but > I have to disagree with slower cars running high in turns then moving > across traffic to run low in the tri-oval. That is a wreck-causing > move for anyone slow to move across traffic just to get out of the > faster cars way. > I have had a few drivers do exactly that and they usually end > up causing a wreck to me or the one behind me. I would much prefer > any slower or damaged driver to take the apron instead. I can change > my line to drive high around them and I doubt you will loose a > position to the driver behind you, because he will have to run the > same line you did to get around the slower driver.

The main problem is that the best place to pass at Talladega is low entering turn 1 or 3. You use the draft to gain momentum and then try to beat the other driver to the bottom of the turn. Usually just your nose under his RR fender is enough to secure the position. Once in the turn, you easily blow past him. The person on the high side just gets left behind. Trying to approach turns and staying high is asking to get burned. I stay low to try and guard myself from being passed on the inside. I don't think I have ever successfully been passed on my outside at Talladega during a race. What really needs to be done is a redesigning of Talladega to make the apron much slower than it now is. Once this is done, the racing groove will migrate up the track. This will leave the apron free to slower drivers. I don't like the I line that I take at Talladega. It's not realistic, and doesn't leave a lot of room below me. Only problem is that its the fastest way around the track and the only way to pass, thus most people follow similar lines. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick (5)

I also disagree with this. Slower drivers should stay below the white when being lapped. This is supposed to be a SIM. I never raced below the white until Hawaii. But now I have to, to keep up. I agree it is the faster line. But slower traffic is less likely to cause a wreck down on the apron. Well, that's my 2 cents worth. Maybe Papyrus will make this correction as well, if they redo Talledega! Are there any other tracks where racing below the white is the faster groove? Don Turcotte DonT

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> I also disagree with this. Slower drivers should stay below the > white when being lapped. This is supposed to be a SIM. I never > raced below the white until Hawaii. But now I have to, to keep > up. I agree it is the faster line. But slower traffic is less likely > to cause a wreck down on the apron. Well, that's my 2 cents worth. > Maybe Papyrus will make this correction as well, if they redo > Talladega! Are there any other tracks where racing below the > white is the faster groove?

I don't agree with it either, but that's how the track is and we have to learn to live with it. It is nearly impossible to pass someone on the outside on the straights, and it is impossible to do so in the turns. The only guaranteed way to pass a car is to get your front-end below their RR fender. Once in the turn, you are lower then they are and will accelerate right by them. I have yet to see two cars consistently run side by side in a turn at Talladega. The only way to keep an opponent from passing you is to beat them to the bottom of the track. If you stay high, you will consistently get passed low often by slower cars. Again I don't like this, it's not realistic, but that's just the way it is. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick (5)

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> The main problem is that the best place to pass at Talladega is low entering > turn 1 or 3. You use the draft to gain momentum and then try to beat the > other driver to the bottom of the turn. Usually just your nose under his RR > fender is enough to secure the position. Once in the turn, you easily blow > past him. The person on the high side just gets left behind. Trying to > approach turns and staying high is asking to get burned. I stay low to try > and guard myself from being passed on the inside. I don't think I have ever > successfully been passed on my outside at Talladega during a race. > What really needs to be done is a redesigning of Talladega to make the apron > much slower than it now is. Once this is done, the racing groove will migrate > up the track. This will leave the apron free to slower drivers. > I don't like the I line that I take at Talladega. It's not realistic, and > doesn't leave a lot of room below me. Only problem is that its the fastest > way around the track and the only way to pass, thus most people follow similar > lines.

This wouldn't be such a bad problem if the track were designed correctly. I hope that Papyrus makes these changes soon. Talladega is a fun track where you can let it all hang out and drive fast. There are 2 places on the Talladega track that should be considered noman's land. The apron below turns 1,2 and below 3,4 and the middle of a three wide pack in the turns. If you drop down to the apron you should lose you're downforce and have to back off to avoid a spin. Passing on the outside of turn 4 should be possible. You should have more momentum coming off the turn. If you could go 3 wide through the trioval, this would make passing on the outside more attractive. Slow cars are supposed to drive down on the apron. In the turns they are supposed to have the right to a portion of the banked raceway. With spotters, this is not a big problem. "Got a slow car ahead in turn 3", should be all it takes to make the faster car take a high line through the turn, thus avoiding the collision. If 2 cars are nose to tail going into the turn and the lead car stays high to avoid the slower car, then the trailing car most respect the line and not drop below the lead car. They should have both gotten the warning from the spotters. Papyrus could probably do more with the spotter messages in hawaii. Private messages that pertain to only 1 car could be sent to a specific client connection. Right now, all messages are sent to all cars. Also, talk between cars should not wrap around to the entire track. "Exiting Pits" should only be broadcast to the cars coming through turn 4 and the trioval. I know these are involved changes and I'm not holding my breath, but I am hoping that Papyrus will continue to implement improvements to the service. They have done a wonderful job thus far. David Martin IVL Series Director dgm26sam

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>>Well, I'm at skill level (5) so I don't know if I qualify as an upper echelon >>driver >>or not, but I'm going to answer anyway since I started this thread initially. >> The >>slower cars need to run high in the turns (tri-oval excluded) because the >>fastest >>racing line involves drifting below the white line before exiting the turns. >> I wish >Eric, > I've used your setups and like your advice on racing Tally, but >I have to disagree with slower cars running high in turns then moving >across traffic to run low in the tri-oval. That is a wreck-causing >move for anyone slow to move across traffic just to get out of the >faster cars way. > I have had a few drivers do exactly that and they usually end >up causing a wreck to me or the one behind me. I would much prefer >any slower or damaged driver to take the apron instead. I can change >my line to drive high around them and I doubt you will loose a >position to the driver behind you, because he will have to run the >same line you did to get around the slower driver.

Finally a voice of reason! Many thanks.. ========================================================= ==Jim McGuigan Power Switching & Conversion Systems== ==Hanover, PA Baltimore / Washington Field Service== == == ** Hawaii Driver: Knuckle Duster (2) ** *********************************************************

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>> I've used your setups and like your advice on racing Tally, but >> I have to disagree with slower cars running high in turns then moving >> across traffic to run low in the tri-oval. That is a wreck-causing >> move for anyone slow to move across traffic just to get out of the >> faster cars way. >> I have had a few drivers do exactly that and they usually end >> up causing a wreck to me or the one behind me. I would much prefer >> any slower or damaged driver to take the apron instead. I can change >> my line to drive high around them and I doubt you will loose a >> position to the driver behind you, because he will have to run the >> same line you did to get around the slower driver. >The main problem is that the best place to pass at Talladega is low entering >turn 1 or 3. You use the draft to gain momentum and then try to beat the >other driver to the bottom of the turn. Usually just your nose under his RR >fender is enough to secure the position. Once in the turn, you easily blow >past him. The person on the high side just gets left behind.

A couple nights ago, a guy was on my bumper at Talladega. Didn't quite have enough to get by me (we were on the same lap fighting for position). I guess I blocked pretty decent too. We come around to the tri-oval and this dude decides he's going for the inside pass. As we enter the turn, his front wheel is aside my rear wheel. I'm already almost at the wall so he's dead in the middle of the track.... Eric, you're a bright guy who's rank is going up, what do you think is gonna happen? No way we're both coming out of this one. So I get off the gas and let this *** go first. Naturally he's in the turn way late and climbs the turn. Didn't hit the wall, but came real close. The pisser of the story is that another guy behind me doesn't recognize that I've backed off and rams me in the rear. We both end up in the infield, and I get the "thanks" message from my new infield enemy. Like it was my fault. I did what was required to make it through the turn without causing a pileup and what do I get for it? Wrecked in the infiled and the reward of hobbling around the track for the remaining laps. Now, odds are that if I hold my line without letting off, we would have bumped and I would have hit the wall almost parallel and could have continued with Mr. *** sitting on the grass. But no, I play it smart and end up getting screwed. And the bonus if having the "incident" count against me. Probably the only thing that will change the way the tri-oval is run right now. ========================================================= ==Jim McGuigan Power Switching & Conversion Systems== ==Hanover, PA Baltimore / Washington Field Service== == == ** Hawaii Driver: Knuckle Duster (2) ** *********************************************************

> A couple nights ago, a guy was on my bumper at Talladega. Didn't quite > have enough to get by me (we were on the same lap fighting for > position). I guess I blocked pretty decent too. We come around to the > tri-oval and this dude decides he's going for the inside pass. As we > enter the turn, his front wheel is aside my rear wheel. I'm already > almost at the wall so he's dead in the middle of the track.... Trying to pass in the tri-oval is an absolutely moronic thing to do in the middle of a race especially for a rookie driver. Unless you are on the last lap, I don't recommend trying it. It's not that it can't be done (I've done it), it's just that it's very risky. You had the right of way (at least in my opinion) because you were ahead at the turn's entry. He should have backed off and fallen in behind you. He easily could have passed you later by using the draft and beating you to the bottom of turn 1. I thought that everyone had learned this by now, but unfortunately for you there are still some idiots out there. I would have kept my line and not backed off. You were entering the tri-oval first and he should have respected that. If he wants to try passing you that's his fault. You would have almost certainly been wrecked this way, but at least he would have been taken out with you. It's too bad these things continue to happen, but someday maybe people will learn. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick (5)

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> > A couple nights ago, a guy was on my bumper at Talladega. Didn't quite > > (snip) > Trying to pass in the tri-oval is an absolutely moronic thing to do in the middle of a > race especially for a rookie driver. Unless you are on the last lap, I don't > recommend trying it. It's not that it can't be done (I've done it), it's just that > it's very risky.

Moronic. Yes. Possible. No. If it's possible for 2 cars to successfully navigate the tri-oval at full speed, side-by-side, I'll eat my shorts. :-) The only reason why you were able to pass was because the car you passed probably came off the gas. Noone should attempt a pass through the tri-oval. This is racing, not CHICKEN. It only results in an accident or hard feelings, depending on whether the driver you're passing wants to resist or not. I've found that the only way to keep from having incidents through the tri-oval is to block any move to the inside. If you do it early enough the other driver should be able to check up and follow you through. If you're car really is slower than the other one (by slower, I mean not competitive at all), then you should be able to take a real low line across the apron and he will pass to the outside. If you're car is only a little slower, then he should be able to pass you by the time you get to the backstretch. If you're car is just as fast as his, then you have the right to a fast line through the tri-oval and you shouldn't have to come off the gas to let someone who doesn't know how to be patient go by. David Martin dgm26sam (2)

> Moronic. Yes. Possible. No. If it's possible for 2 cars to successfully navigate the tri-oval at > full speed, side-by-side, I'll eat my shorts. :-) The only reason why you were able to pass was > because the car you passed probably came off the gas. No one should attempt a pass through the > tri-oval. This is racing, not CHICKEN. It only results in an accident or hard feelings, depending > on whether the driver you're passing wants to resist or not. Uh, you want fries with those shorts? It is possible to pass low in the tri-oval. What you need to do is cut the corner so that you are nearly in the grass. You should be able to hold your line and exit the tri-oval at about the middle of the track. The normal line takes you further out towards the wall, so you both will come out ok. The only problem is that by cutting the turn that sharp, you loose some speed. That's why I only recommend trying it on the last lap if then. you can usually beat the other car back to the line. During the middle of a race however, they will have more momentum and beat you back to turn one. It is better for you to just fall in line and pass low entering turn 1 or 3. Yes, but I've seen some cars move up on the outside of drivers trying to protect their insides. Exactly, but that's not how people do it. I've even seen cars stopped dead in the middle of the tri-oval (people don't realize that your car stays on the track while you check out replays). -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick (5)

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> >>>Well, I'm at skill level (5) so I don't know if I qualify as an upper echelon >>>driver or not, but I'm going to answer anyway since I started this thread >>>initially. > >>> The slower cars need to run high in the turns (tri-oval excluded) because the >>>fastest racing line involves drifting below the white line before exiting the turns. > > ... lots clipped for brevity > >>I can change my line to drive high around them and I doubt you will loose a >>position to the driver behind you, because he will have to run the same line >>you did to get around the slower driver. > >Finally a voice of reason! Many thanks.. >

Actually, it depends on where he overtakes the slower driver. At 'dega (everybody's favorite track - grin) You loose more time passing someone (or slowing down to avoid passing someone) in the tri-oval than you would in turns 1/2. The "fastest" passing is done on the backstretch in this case because you don't have to alter your line significantly to require a change in velocity. You could theoretically loose a position if the car behind you is close enough AND far enough back when you pass someone in the tri-oval or slow down to avoid passing in the tri-oval. If the following driver timed it right, he'd begin his pass at the beginning of the backstretch and eventually be dood to door with you because it takes forever (one lap is forever at 'dega) to get back up to top speed. /===================================================\

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>car's line through the turn.) If I had stayed high, I would >have taken an entire lane away from the leaders for a longer >period of time. If I was only a couple of mph off the >leaders' speed then I would go high to let them through. >On other tracks it is easier for slower cars to stay high but >not Talladega. What do you upper echelon drivers think?

For me? If I am not pitting, then I stay high and send a message to pass LOW when I see cars coming up behind me. I'm a old tester, so I have taken a few laps around the tracks..(got the bills to prove it<G>) A good way to do it if you are damaged car trying to make laps..I hit F2 to pull up the list, then hit ENTER to toggle the screen to show who's ahead and who's directly behind. If you are creepin' and 170..cars coming up at 200 are easy to spot so you can set your self up where the best place to be is. KenH

> >On other tracks it is easier for slower cars to stay high but > >not Talladega. What do you upper echelon drivers think? > For me? If I am not pitting, then I stay high and send a > message to pass LOW when I see cars coming up behind me. That will work for me. Some drivers do need to signal their intentions more. I have come up on a couple of guys in the middle lane just before 1 or 3 and had to guess. They did hold their line so it wasn't a problem but a "wave by" would have been nice. I think you qualify. :) I do this. That info is essential and emulates a spotter as well as anything. I like knowing when it is safe to back off to let the leaders pass. I actually slowed just enough on the apron of the back stretch at the end of one race to keep the leaders from having to deal with me in turn 3. They didn't know it but I gave them a clear track to the finish. I still prefer the slower cars to stay low but if someone gets caught high in the turn and waves to pass low, the problem is minor. Dan