Multi Idiot

Last night I had one of the most exciting and competitive races I've had on Multi. Rhawn Black,Tim Villon and myself started Rockingham, 1,2,3. We had a clean start and ran for a number of laps in that order, pulling away from the rest of the pack by some 7 seconds before we encountered lap traffic. Rhawn and Tim V. had begun to race each other and I sat patiently in 3rd when a lap car was all over the track coming out of turn 4. He went down on the apron and then back up on the track right in the middle of us. Rhawn went high, I went low and Tim V. was the unfortunate victim. It was a great experience running with those guys. I finished 2nd to Rhawn by .5 of a second. It's just a pity it could'nt have been settled by us 3 without the presence of a careless lapper. After the congrads in the post race chat, Rhawn and I decided to go to Bristol. I had set on the pole and dominated a 10% race at Bristol just 2 nights before, it was a fairly safe race with little stupidity going on, so I felt we might could have a good race this time. WRONG!!! I messed the qualifying run and started 7th, On the pace lap I was holding my line with a steady speed when suddenly I get nailed from the rear hard. It put me head on into the wall and almost completely destroyed the car before the green even dropped. I don't know how many other cars were damaged, but at least a half dozen I'm sure. By the time I left the pits I was 4 laps down, somewhere around 20th position. Cars were still wrecking everywhere. I was just trying to dodge cars and finish. It was'nt long before I was in 8th position 1 lap behind Allen B. (our NASSCAR WC point leader). He and another car were doing the demolition derby thing right in front of me and wound up spinning. I eventually came upon him again and passed him cleanly. I had worked my way up to 6th when the system crashed. When I got logged back on. Most of the guys that were in the race were in the main chat room. I stated that I had been nailed on the pace lap and Allen B. replied "That was me". I said "Not intentionally I hope". He then stated "Yes it was". I do not like him and he does not like me BUT, why did he not race me and try to beat me legit. Instead, he proved that he is a childish punk by not only ruining my race but the race of many others. We don't need to spend our money to be taken out on the pace lap by an IDIOT!!! Like I said before Allen B. You are a disgrace and I think you should be suspended from Multiplayer. I will resign from NASSCAR because of this letter and your presence Allen B. but as far as multi, I am going to contact anyone I can at Papyrus to try and get some action taken against you. This is a letter I sent. Is there something that can be done about this kind of BS? Rick? Ed? -- -----------. __ .----------- ----- \( )/ ----- Cie (The Axeman) Phillips --- ' \/ ` --- #13 Envelop chevy --- : : --- Eagle 1 MotorSports //..\\ http://www.teleplex.net/cie/ UU /\ UU '//||\\` ''``

<Lots of Complaints snipped> My advice, just suck it up and keep racing. Don't let him get the best of you. If you really want to avoid him, just try the F4 key (i think that's right) to see who is in a particular race. If he's there, jut don't join that race. You do realize that his bumping is counting against him? Each accident he causes that is severe enough to bring out a yellow will slow down his skill level increase. You sound like a fairly good racer, so hopefully you can advance faster than he can. Then you will be able to nominate races with a minimum skill level that he will be unable to join. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick (4)

I too think this is excellent advice, suck it up and drive on. You will progress in the skill level ratings and he will not, then you can just get in races of a higher skill level and avoid most of the chicanery. Just a thought however, when you get screwed like that, save the replay, as well as whoever was in the race (standings), go back and analyse the thing from his point of view. Maybe it will prove fodder to use against him with some future race director for a series he's trying to enter. Hang inthere... Los

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>>My advice, just suck it up and keep racing. Don't let him get the best of >>you. If you really want to avoid him, just try the F4 key (i think that's >>right) to see who is in a particular race. If he's there, jut don't join that >>race. You do realize that his bumping is counting against him? Each accident >>he causes that is severe enough to bring out a yellow will slow down his skill >>level increase. You sound like a fairly good racer, so hopefully you can >>advance faster than he can. Then you will be able to nominate races with a >>minimum skill level that he will be unable to join. >I too think this is excellent advice, suck it up and drive on. You will >progress in the skill level ratings and he will not, then you can just get in >races of a higher skill level and avoid most of the chicanery. >Just a thought however, when you get screwed like that, save the replay, as >well as whoever was in the race (standings), go back and analyse the thing from >his point of view. Maybe it will prove fodder to use against him with some >future race director for a series he's trying to enter. >Hang inthere... >Los

Exactly...It does no good to scream and yell at someone who's just wrecking people... Chances are, that's what he wants in the first place. Take notes, see who the guys are who are causing problems, and don't race against them. Not everyone is an expert, I know I'm not, I've mad my mistakes, and will make many more. The idea is to find people you enjoy racing against, and race. This thing wil eventually form into a kind of community. I know the time I have spent on the network I have met MANY fine people, who I consider great friends. If I can race once a week in a league against those guys then hey, I'm happy. Let the guys who want to wreck everyone play by themselves. This will all clear out in a way eventually. -- http://www.cris.com/~bms/index.htm Closed Beta Tester Hawaii Network - bsimpson online "It's Always Darkest before it goes totally Black"

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>-- >-----------. __ .----------- > ----- \( )/ ----- Cie (The Axeman) Phillips > --- ' \/ ` --- #13 Envelop chevy > --- : : --- Eagle 1 MotorSports > //..\\ http://www.teleplex.net/cie/ > UU /\ UU > '//||\\` > ''``

If you can race wirh Rhawn Black you're fast. Ask him about getting in a league where the idiots r locked out.

> Last night I had one of the most exciting and competitive races I've had > on Multi. Rhawn Black,Tim Villon and myself started Rockingham, 1,2,3. We That was some great racing Cie! Many of you "great" drivers out there will learn over time (took some of us 1 year + beta testing to learn this) that most of the folks out there don't really know how to "race". I hate to offend anyone, but this goes double for folks from the NASSCAR or whatever series there are out there, it is VASTLY DIFFERENT from the AI, or a modem race. If any of you have raced for real (I have road raced for years), you will understand... if you have not, assume that you have something to learn. All I ask from you series racer guys/gals is to recognize that it is different, and don't expect to win, and be competitive right off the bat just because you can run fast against the AI. One HUGE difference is you can usually always out-brake the AI, and you can "slip" a little out of the groove and they will yield you room. THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN MP. If you try and take the low line on me at the ROCK (Cie saw Rhawn do this to me), you better be HUGGIN that white line, cuz there won't be much more room for you above that. Until you can accuratly and safely put your car where you want it in traffic, and successfully vary your line and your groove predictably, you will potentially be a hazard. This is unfortunate, but all to common. I have been lambasted by MikeA80 (whoever that was) when he went full speed into the pack under a yellow flag because he was angry that some "jackass" hit him. Get a clue! So he ruins the race for several of us. This is the kind of attitude that sends crazies into office buildings with guns! WATCH OUT! THE SOLUTION - racing leagues, cliques of drivers that trust each other. Cie.. I'll go door to door with you anytime! Tim V

>people you enjoy racing against, and race. This thing wil eventually >form into a kind of community. This is one of the great things about online racing. I've only been there since Tuesday, but I already feel like I've made some friends. We race hard, sometimes we wreck, and we have a blast doing it. My driving skills have improved at least 50% since I started on Hawaii. I can't imagine going back to racing AI now. Dave

I the race for several of us. Tim I saw that type of behavior more times than I thought I would. Sometimes they pass the entire yellow pace group to nail someone they felt had done them wrong. I try like hell to get their ID. Mlang

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> >This is unfortunate, but all to common. I have been lambasted by > MikeA80 (whoever > >that was) when he went full speed into the pack under a yellow flag > because > >he was angry that some "jackass" hit him. Get a clue! So he ruins > the race for several of us. > I saw that type of behavior more times than I thought I would. > Sometimes they pass the entire yellow pace group to nail someone they > felt had done them wrong. > I try like hell to get their ID.

The good thing is that the rating system will get them in the end. -- --- Terje Wold Johansen --- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ --- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

Perhaps there should a "Complaint" option in Multiplayer NASCAR like there is in the Imagination Network? Anyone can register a complaint against another driver (maybe include replays of the accidents). If a driver receives too many *valid* complaints then maybe the HAWAII administrators can take corrective action (whatever that may be, banishment?). There should be an understanding of mutual respect on any online service. If a person can't accept the rules and abide by good sportsmanship, then he/she shouldn't be allowed to play. Just some thoughts... -- -Jim

I agree with this option, we should be able to submit clear cut abuses of the system, which affect all of our ratings. It will be up to Papyrus personnel though to decide if they want to play Winston Cup officials though. I also think there should be some requirements before submitting a complaint, I am sure they would easily get overwhelmed by complaints if everyone submitted one for every "racing" incident. The real drivers deal with it and so should we, we should have a means however to complain about "jerks" trying to ruin other people's skill level ratings, ie. running into someone on purpose because you were racing tight or something...just my 2cents. l8r Zoner

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>I agree with this option, we should be able to submit clear cut abuses of >the system, which affect all of our ratings. It will be up to Papyrus >personnel though to decide if they want to play Winston Cup officials > though. I also think there should be some requirements before > submitting a complaint, I am sure they would easily get overwhelmed > by complaints if everyone submitted one for every "racing" incident. > The real drivers deal with it and so should we, we should have a means

however > to complain about "jerks" trying to ruin other people's skill level ratings, ie. > running into someone on purpose because you were racing tight or > something...just my 2cents. Todd - the main reason we've included the "incidents" count in ratings is to encourage people to take courteous and safe driving seriously. If it turns out that the ratings system itself is infuriating people as much as getting cut off in the trioval, we'll have to adjust the ratings system accordingly. So far I think the balance is in favor of scoring incidents; you'll particularly find this to be the case among more experienced drivers, I believe; the awareness that completing a race without incident is more likely to improve your rating (as well as your finishing position!) than trying to rush to get past a couple of other drivers is important both for your own enjoyment and everyone elses. Better drivers are able to drive door to door for many laps to complete a pass. It's just amazing to see a pack of four drivers looping around one of the short ovals lap after lap, separated by a few tenths of a second. Your suggestion to have a review board, I think you've answered on your own - there are hundreds of races daily, and keeping our cost down so we can keep your cost down is our top priority. If you're in a series race, the series administrator can implement any rules they would like, including a review of any incidents in the race. Once you're involved in a series, your dial-up costs are likely to be lower, as well, because you'll want to spend hours working offline to get the nuances of the track you'll be racing next down pat. Your phone bill will be lower, and you'll probably enjoy the race even more than if you'd spent more time online. Anyhow, our goal is to come up with an automated ratings system which is simple and doesn't have a lot of ambiguity, so you know what's being scored and we don't have to spend lots of $$$ having people review and arbitrate race results. We think we're pretty close to that goal, and that once the open beta has been in operation for a few weeks we'll get the statistical validity we need to get users ratings sorted out. If we've missed the target, we're listening to you guys, and we'll adjust the ratings system accordingly. Charlie Heath Papyrus Design Group

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>>I agree with this option, we should be able to submit clear cut abuses of >>the system, which affect all of our ratings. It will be up to Papyrus >>personnel though to decide if they want to play Winston Cup officials >> though. I also think there should be some requirements before >> submitting a complaint, I am sure they would easily get overwhelmed >> by complaints if everyone submitted one for every "racing" incident. >> The real drivers deal with it and so should we, we should have a means >however >> to complain about "jerks" trying to ruin other people's skill level >ratings, ie. >> running into someone on purpose because you were racing tight or >> something...just my 2cents.

It seems that there are ways around submitting a replay to some review board, there are any number of ways anyone with rudimentary computer experience could alter pieces of the file to lay blame on any person they don't like. While this sounds like an extreme situation it could certainly be used by someone in their defense. (Can you tell I live with a lawyer<g>?) Los

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>Anyhow, our goal is to come up with an automated ratings system which is >simple and doesn't have a lot of ambiguity, so you know what's being scored >and we don't have to spend lots of $$$ having people review and arbitrate >race results. We think we're pretty close to that goal, and that once the >open beta has been in operation for a few weeks we'll get the statistical >validity we need to get users ratings sorted out. If we've missed the >target, we're listening to you guys, and we'll adjust the ratings system >accordingly.

I think you guys have done an excellent job of balancing the ratings system out. Please don't take out the incident penalty. It may be a real pain in the early going, but when you start racing against drivers with decent skill levels, that penalty definitely encourages clean racing. I almost think that one point isn't a severe enough penalty. For example, if you're racing against someone the same skill level, comes down to the last lap, and you tap him to spin him, you end up +2 (3 points for the position less 1 for the incident). And yes, it's possible to have clean, exciting races. The other night, there were 5 of us with skill levels 4 and up racing at Dover. It was the closest thing to real racing I've been involved in. Lap after lap, we kept trying different things to get around each other, but no one could seem to get an advantage. There was one incident towards the end that was just a racing deal. Two cars going for position just got a little too close. I expect that this kind of race will become the norm as skill levels get sorted out. And I look forward to many more races just like it. Dave

Charlie, Ed, and r.a.s, I wonder what affect providing an immediate, post-race "rating" would have on the users. What I thinking of is something like: After the race, the system would report "Based on this race, your skill level would be __." or "Your skill score for this race was -/+__". Add to that "This would rank you as one of our worst/best (pick the right one) drivers" and you have what would hopefully be "positive (or negative) feedback". It would not surprise me to discover that many of the "problem" users just jumped into races and never bothered to read Nim's Tips or the User's Guide. Most of them probably don't have Internet or other online access and therefore don't see any of the comments made about their behavior. Without some kind of "unavoidable" criticism (positive or negative), these users may never "improve". On the other hand, I expect that some of the "problem" users are being that way on purpose and there may be nothing that can be done to modify their behavior. By the way, is it possible to stay a "0" forever or is a 10 race "problem" user automatically a "1"? Another positive feedback approach (for the future) would be to tier the price of online time by skill level(s). I'm thinking here of only 2 or 3 tiers, split at the points where courteous, clean driving have a higher weight than speed. The answer to the above question could help settle the debate that will surely develop around "What about a brand new user?". I don't know how long the "open beta" and/or "pay your own LD charges" is going to last, and it would be interesting to know how many of the "problem" users are "617 locals". If it would help eliminate a significant percentage of the "problem" users, then I would prefer to call a "900" number that might not lower my LD bill, but might make it easier to make sure that the "problem" users were being charged just as much as I am. I realise this would be a burden on the "good 617 racers", but I'd like to see this project succeed for all of us. Regards, Brad

and talk about the adrenaline flow when you're in that pack ... it is truely a rush !!! Huh??? ohhh ... that's how that's supposed to work :) I really like that concept but ... :) seriously enjoy the league races much more than the opens primarily because I know the people I'm running with, their abilities, and for the most part we respect one anothers racing-line. thanks a ton Charlie ....

: Charlie, Ed, and r.a.s, : I wonder what affect providing an immediate, post-race "rating" would have : on the users. What I thinking of is something like: After the race, the : system would report "Based on this race, your skill level would be __." or : "Your skill score for this race was -/+__". Add to that "This would rank : you as one of our worst/best (pick the right one) drivers" and you have : what would hopefully be "positive (or negative) feedback". Good idea, but currently, Skill Level are updated once a day, in the early afternoons. : It would not surprise me to discover that many of the "problem" users just : jumped into races and never bothered to read Nim's Tips or the User's : Guide. Most of them probably don't have Internet or other online access : and therefore don't see any of the comments made about their behavior. : Without some kind of "unavoidable" criticism (positive or negative), these : users may never "improve". On the other hand, I expect that some of the : "problem" users are being that way on purpose and there may be nothing : that can be done to modify their behavior. : By the way, is it possible to stay a "0" forever or is a 10 race "problem" : user automatically a "1"? No one ever moves up automatically. Someone can stay a "0" for ever. : Another positive feedback approach (for the future) would be to tier the : price of online time by skill level(s). I'm thinking here of only 2 or : 3 tiers, split at the points where courteous, clean driving have a higher : weight than speed. The answer to the above question could help settle : the debate that will surely develop around "What about a brand new user?". Currently, there is no fee for using the system, other than LD charges. : I don't know how long the "open beta" and/or "pay your own LD charges" is : going to last, and it would be interesting to know how many of the : "problem" users are "617 locals". If it would help eliminate a significant : percentage of the "problem" users, then I would prefer to call a "900" number : that might not lower my LD bill, but might make it easier to make sure : that the "problem" users were being charged just as much as I am. I : realise this would be a burden on the "good 617 racers", but I'd like : to see this project succeed for all of us. There are very few users in the 617 area code. I doubt any of them are intentionally causing problems. : Regards, : Brad ML