Ed Martin: Skill Level ?

I have run a few races on the Multi-player network (5 or 6). So far I have come in first in 3 or 4, second in one, and third in another (some idiot took me out in turn 4 of the last lap when I was leading). As far as I have seen, all the drivers are at Skill level (0). I assume beating higher rated drivers helps you to increase level as well, but so far I haven't seen any. When do the levels update anyway, daily, after each race? It is getting very frustrating running some races with such low unskilled competition. For example, I ran a race yesterday at Talladega against 6 other drivers. I qualified on the pole, and never once had a driver try to pass me (at some points I was 4 sec ahead of the 2nd place driver in a 9 lap race!). I'm not saying I'm the best: I'm far from it. I just would like to find my niche and race against similarly skilled opponents without worrying about slow unskilled drivers cutting me and others off. -- Eric T. Busch Emory University

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> I have run a few races on the Multi-player network (5 or 6). So far I have come > in first in 3 or 4, second in one, and third in another (some idiot took me out in > turn 4 of the last lap when I was leading). As far as I have seen, all the > drivers are at Skill level (0). I assume beating higher rated drivers helps you > to increase level as well, but so far I haven't seen any. When do the levels > update anyway, daily, after each race? It is getting very frustrating running > some races with such low unskilled competition. > For example, I ran a race yesterday at Talladega against 6 other drivers. I > qualified on the pole, and never once had a driver try to pass me (at some points > I was 4 sec ahead of the 2nd place driver in a 9 lap race!). I'm not saying I'm > the best: I'm far from it. I just would like to find my niche and race against > similarly skilled opponents without worrying about slow unskilled drivers cutting > me and others off. > -- > Eric T. Busch > Emory University

Skill levels are currently calculated once/day (in the early AM). Eventually, they will be calculated real-time after each event. Skill levels are based on the most recent 10 events. If you haven't raced in 10 events, the x number differnece is calculated as 0. In other words, you really need to race 10 times before we have a fair sample for the alogorythm to move you up/down. The skill level system is in place to help everyone. The goal is to set it up so peers race peers. 15's & 1's don't belong on the same track at the same time, but we need a fair sample of data in order to make that calculation. The only fair way we can come up with is to start everyone at the bottom & allow them to move their way up. The better you are, the faster you move up. The skill level system has been developed over may months, and the data from HUNDREDS of races has been run through the model. If you want the detail on how it works, it available online. -- Ed Martin Papyrus Design Group

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> I have run a few races on the Multi-player network (5 or 6). So far I have come > in first in 3 or 4, second in one, and third in another (some idiot took me out in > turn 4 of the last lap when I was leading). As far as I have seen, all the > drivers are at Skill level (0). I assume beating higher rated drivers helps you > to increase level as well, but so far I haven't seen any. When do the levels > update anyway, daily, after each race? It is getting very frustrating running > some races with such low unskilled competition. > For example, I ran a race yesterday at Talladega against 6 other drivers. I > qualified on the pole, and never once had a driver try to pass me (at some points > I was 4 sec ahead of the 2nd place driver in a 9 lap race!). I'm not saying I'm > the best: I'm far from it. I just would like to find my niche and race against > similarly skilled opponents without worrying about slow unskilled drivers cutting > me and others off. > -- > Eric T. Busch > Emory University

Skill levels are currently calculated once/day (in the early AM). Eventually, they will be calculated real-time after each event. Skill levels are based on the most recent 10 events. If you haven't raced in 10 events, the x number differnece is calculated as 0. In other words, you really need to race 10 times before we have a fair sample for the alogorythm to move you up/down. The skill level system is in place to help everyone. The goal is to set it up so peers race peers. 15's & 1's don't belong on the same track at the same time, but we need a fair sample of data in order to make that calculation. The only fair way we can come up with is to start everyone at the bottom & allow them to move their way up. The better you are, the faster you move up. The skill level system has been developed over may months, and the data from HUNDREDS of races has been run through the model. If you want the detail on how it works, it's available online. -- Ed Martin Papyrus Design Group

> Skill levels are based on the most recent 10 events. If you haven't > raced in 10 events, the x number difference is calculated as 0. In > other words, you really need to race 10 times before we have a fair > sample for the algorithm to move you up/down. Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. Now if I want until the service becomes cheaper (i.e. local calls or whatever) will I be short changing my self? I mean, will everyone else already be ahead of me in terms of skill level, or will it not make a difference? I guess what I am asking is will there always be some races available for new users to start of in? -- Eric T. Busch Emory University

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>I have run a few races on the Multi-player network (5 or 6). So far I have come >in first in 3 or 4, second in one, and third in another (some idiot took me out in >turn 4 of the last lap when I was leading). As far as I have seen, all the >drivers are at Skill level (0). I assume beating higher rated drivers helps you >to increase level as well, but so far I haven't seen any. When do the levels >update anyway, daily, after each race? It is getting very frustrating running >some races with such low unskilled competition. >For example, I ran a race yesterday at Talladega against 6 other drivers. I >qualified on the pole, and never once had a driver try to pass me (at some points >I was 4 sec ahead of the 2nd place driver in a 9 lap race!). I'm not saying I'm >the best: I'm far from it. I just would like to find my niche and race against >similarly skilled opponents without worrying about slow unskilled drivers cutting >me and others off. >-- >Eric T. Busch >Emory University

Eric, It will go up. I'm currently a skill level 10, and even though I've tried to calculate it, I'm still confused at times on how this works exactly. There is a file on the BBS called skill.txt...I think that's what it's called. Read it and see if that helps. There is also a file that shows the progression of skill levels of some of us closed testers, it might help you see how they progressed, at least if it's still there. Also, grab a file called Mulltip***(something along those lines...sorry Larry :) It's a driver analyzer that scans the race96 files that Papyrus puts out on the BBS. It'll show all races run, by whom and where, it's a great program, and the guy who wrote it, Larry Holbert, is a great guy also, so take it easy on him at the track :) -- [link lost in import: /~bms/index.htm] Beta Tester Hawaii Network - bsimpson online "It's Always Darkest before it goes totally Black"

>> Emory University Ed does it count against you if you get railed by Non Thinking "drivers" or crashes during practice?

>The skill level system has been developed over may months, and the data >from HUNDREDS of races has been run through the model. If you want the >detail on how it works, it's available online. Where? Is it a download from your web page? I looked but did not find it. Is it a download from your ftp site? What is the file name? -- Best Wishes!!! Robert Huggins

> >> Emory University > Ed does it count against you if you get railed by Non Thinking "drivers" > or crashes during practice? Practice has no influence on skill rankings. Only the race. -- Ed Martin Papyrus Design Group

Why don't you nominate a race with a higher minimum skill level or join a series?

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> >The skill level system has been developed over may months, and the data > >from HUNDREDS of races has been run through the model. If you want the > >detail on how it works, it's available online. > Where? > Is it a download from your web page? I looked but did not find it. > Is it a download from your ftp site? What is the file name? > -- > Best Wishes!!! > Robert Huggins

-- Ed Martin Papyrus Design Group

> > ..... without worrying about slow unskilled drivers cutting > > me and others off. > Why don't you nominate a race with a higher minimum skill level or join a series? I would have loved to when I started, but the way the syatem is set up, everyone starts out at level Zero. You only are able to advance after ten races. Currently I am up to level (3) after my first ten races, and added two victories last night. When you first start out, you have to just tough it out and hope you can survive your first ten races without too much trouble. After that, I recommend not racing with level (0) newbies for your own safety and sanity =) -- Eric T. Busch Emory University

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> > Skill levels are based on the most recent 10 events. If you haven't > > raced in 10 events, the x number difference is calculated as 0. In > > other words, you really need to race 10 times before we have a fair > > sample for the algorithm to move you up/down. > Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know. Now if I want until the > service becomes cheaper (i.e. local calls or whatever) will I be short > changing my self? I mean, will everyone else already be ahead of me in > terms of skill level, or will it not make a difference? I guess what I > am asking is will there always be some races available for new users to > start of in? > -- > Eric T. Busch > Emory University

This is my concern as well, I don't want to continue paying LD to get wiped by extremely less qualified drivers, but if and when it becomes cheaper, will I be behind the curve and stuck with the "zeros?"

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>I would have loved to when I started, but the way the syatem is set up, >everyone starts out at level Zero. You only are able to advance after >ten races. Currently I am up to level (3) after my first ten races, and >added two victories last night. When you first start out, you have to >just tough it out and hope you can survive your first ten races without >too much trouble. After that, I recommend not racing with level (0) >newbies for your own safety and sanity =) >-- >Eric T. Busch >Emory University

I forget...does your finishing position count against you? I'm just a backmarker at Tally :( Eldred Pickett I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!?

>This is my concern as well, I don't want to continue paying LD to get >wiped by extremely less qualified drivers, but if and when it becomes >cheaper, will I be behind the curve and stuck with the "zeros?" I tried my first race Friday night. It was a demo derby... 2 or 3 yellow flags for 5 laps, 3 accidents UNDER CAUTION. I watched one guy plow into the driver ahead of me...for no reason. I got nailed during the second caution. All this in a 9 lap race. I was NOT impressed with Hawaii, and decided I wasn't going to waste my LD money on this. Saturday morning, I decided to give it one last try. I guess all the 'inexperienced drivers' were still watching cartoons. Two races, 27 laps, ONE incident. The people on Saturday were much more restrained, and I found a couple that I trusted racing side by side. TEK and I had a heck of a duel...that he won :( Now all I have to do is find some SPEED...and money<g>. Eldred Pickett I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!?

> I forget...does your finishing position count against you? I'm just a > backmarker at Tally :( Yes it does matter. Your skill level is determined by what drivers you finish ahead of as well as you beats you. I would assume (please correct me if I'm wrong), that as long as you at least finish higher that your qualifying spot and avoid wrecks you should be ok and will advance, albeit more slowly than you would with victories. -- Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/ Hawaii Network UserName: Buschwick (4)

> Yes it does matter. Your skill level is determined by what drivers you > finish ahead of as well as you beats you. I would assume (please correct > me if I'm wrong), that as long as you at least finish higher that your > qualifying spot and avoid wrecks you should be ok and will advance, albeit > more slowly than you would with victories. Qual position is not an issue regarding skill levels. Here is another example: Consider you are a lvl 1, racing against a field of 19 other lvl 1's. If you finish 11th or worse, you will receive negative points. If you finish 10th or better, you will receive positive points. Keep in mind, you lose 1 point for each incident you are involved in. You gain/lose 3 points for each driver of your lvl (lvl 1 in this case) that you finish ahead/behind. (the system is weighted to account for drivers of varying skill levels, but this is a simple example) So, if you finished 7th, you would lose 18 points (6*3) for the drivers that finished ahead of you, and you would gain 39 points (13*3) for the drivers that finished behind you. This amounts to a net gain of 21 (39-18) points, minus a point for each incident you are involved in. Mike

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>Subject: Re: Ed Martin: Skill Level ? >Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:32:56 -0400 >> Yes it does matter. Your skill level is determined by what drivers you >> finish ahead of as well as you beats you. I would assume (please correct >> me if I'm wrong), that as long as you at least finish higher that your >> qualifying spot and avoid wrecks you should be ok and will advance, albeit >> more slowly than you would with victories. >Qual position is not an issue regarding skill levels. >Here is another example: Consider you are a lvl 1, racing against a >field of 19 other lvl 1's. If you finish 11th or worse, you will >receive negative points. If you finish 10th or better, you will receive >positive points. >Keep in mind, you lose 1 point for each incident you are involved in. >You gain/lose 3 points for each driver of your lvl (lvl 1 in this case) >that you finish ahead/behind. (the system is weighted to account for >drivers of varying skill levels, but this is a simple example) >So, if you finished 7th, you would lose 18 points (6*3) for the drivers >that finished ahead of you, and you would gain 39 points (13*3) for the >drivers that finished behind you. This amounts to a net gain of 21 >(39-18) points, minus a point for each incident you are involved in. >Mike

Oh HELL. I'm REALLY in trouble. I can race CLEAN, but I ain't that fast.... I can't keep up with 195mph at Tally, anyway... :( Eldred Pickett I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!?

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> >Subject: Re: Ed Martin: Skill Level ? > >Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:32:56 -0400 > >Qual position is not an issue regarding skill levels. > >Here is another example: Consider you are a lvl 1, racing against a > >field of 19 other lvl 1's. If you finish 11th or worse, you will > >receive negative points. If you finish 10th or better, you will receive > >positive points. > >Keep in mind, you lose 1 point for each incident you are involved in. > >You gain/lose 3 points for each driver of your lvl (lvl 1 in this case) > >that you finish ahead/behind. (the system is weighted to account for > >drivers of varying skill levels, but this is a simple example) > >So, if you finished 7th, you would lose 18 points (6*3) for the drivers > >that finished ahead of you, and you would gain 39 points (13*3) for the > >drivers that finished behind you. This amounts to a net gain of 21 > >(39-18) points, minus a point for each incident you are involved in. > >Mike > Oh HELL. I'm REALLY in trouble. I can race CLEAN, but I ain't that fast.... > I can't keep up with 195mph at Tally, anyway... :( > Eldred Pickett > I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!?

Okay, here is the secret. Looking at all the race statistics, it is clear that less than 50% of the drivers who start a race, finish the race. So... all you need to do to improve your level, is finish races. In fact, finishing races is so important, that you should stay in a race even if you are 10 laps down, if you are interested in upping your skill level. Try it. I think you'll be pleased with the results. Mike_L

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>> Oh HELL. I'm REALLY in trouble. I can race CLEAN, but I ain't that fast.... >> I can't keep up with 195mph at Tally, anyway... :( >> Eldred Pickett >Okay, here is the secret. Looking at all the race statistics, it is >clear that less than 50% of the drivers who start a race, finish the >race. So... all you need to do to improve your level, is finish races. >In fact, finishing races is so important, that you should stay in a race >even if you are 10 laps down, if you are interested in upping your skill >level. >Try it. I think you'll be pleased with the results.

I'll second this one. I started back in the pack at #22 (of 26 racers I think). Big crashes on the first lap or 2 naturally. Even managed to get in one myself. Damage was on and I could only turn laps in ths high 140's. Was I stoppin since there was no realistic chance of winning? No way! stayed out there and rode the apron to a #11 finish. ========================================================= ==Jim McGuigan Power Switching & Conversion Systems== ==Hanover, PA Baltimore / Washington Field Service== == == ** Hawaii Driver: Knuckle Duster ** *********************************************************

shhhh .. Mike giving away secrets :) honestly guys what Mike says is very true ... my current level is an 8 which was obtained buy racing clean and finishing as many races as possible. I think I've only got about 4 or 5 wins in April but ... my laps completed percentage is very high meaning that I may not finish 1st or even in the top 5 but .. I finish. A very important side note here is ... if you're damaged and running simply to finish, make sure you give the other racers the lines they need to get around you cleanly. see ya on the track Jim

What about the flip side Mikey? Say you go all the way through qualifying and then get hosed out of the server. How much damage does that do to a higher skill level? I ask this because I got hosed out of HCS last night and I'm still wipin' away the tears! BTW, there was some really clean running on the server tonight. I ran 2 0-15s and was very impressed with the driving. There ARE some real sharp new guys and gals running and I had a lot of fun running with them. Later MMc

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> >Looking at all the race statistics, it is > >clear that less than 50% of the drivers who start a race, finish the > >race. So... all you need to do to improve your level, is finish races. > >In fact, finishing races is so important, that you should stay in a race > >even if you are 10 laps down, if you are interested in upping your skill > >level. > What about the flip side Mikey? > Say you go all the way through qualifying and then get hosed out of the > server. How much damage does that do to a higher skill level? > I ask this because I got hosed out of HCS last night and I'm still wipin' > away the tears! > BTW, there was some really clean running on the server tonight. I ran 2 > 0-15s and was very impressed with the driving. There ARE some real sharp > new guys and gals running and I had a lot of fun running with them. > Later > MMc

We drop the 2 worst results before we calculate skill levels to accomodate technical difficulties like this, and even moreso, to give people a break when they just have a bad race. -- Ed Martin Papyrus Design Group

>BTW, there was some really clean running on the server tonight. I ran 2 >0-15s and was very impressed with the driving. There ARE some real sharp >new guys and gals running and I had a lot of fun running with them. Hey Mark, you must have been in all the races I wasn't in! Actually I guess it wasn't that bad, I had a couple Dega races that started out as wreckfests and then had a few dimwits that would either try to run all over a guy or stop in the middle groove and see what happened. Once I decided I was no longer going to run Dega, I had some good runs. Had a heckuva run at a slugfest at Bristol to finish 2nd by 0.1 seconds, even tried Dega again later and had a good run. By the time my night was over I racked up 4 2nds and a couple 3rds. Now all I gotta do is win one of these stinkin races! But I still think I'll avoid Dega unless there's no alternative. Real racers use their brakes! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Winston Cup 7 41 23 Busch South 9 34 47 NCTS 7 07 Busch North 47 44 34 Mod Tour 21 8 10A IRCA 93 39 96 Busch North & Modified Tour Home Pages at http://www.vgernet.net/aclaffie/ Your Attitude Will Be MODIFIED!

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>We drop the 2 worst results before we calculate skill levels to >accomodate technical difficulties like this, and even moreso, to give >people a break when they just have a bad race. >-- >Ed Martin >Papyrus Design Group

So Ed, you drop the 2 worst results *everyday* for us? That's great but what if we only have 2 races for that day? <g> I'm sure you only drop the worst 2 *if* we have 3 or more races for that day - right? ......Right? <g> BTW - I finally had a clean race at Talladega Friday night and had a BLAST! The fact that short tracks seem to run ALOT cleaner than Tally seems to be an ironic twist to Hawaii that I never expected... Phil <PJYoung>

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> >We drop the 2 worst results before we calculate skill levels to > >accomodate technical difficulties like this, and even moreso, to give > >people a break when they just have a bad race. > >-- > >Ed Martin > >Papyrus Design Group > So Ed, you drop the 2 worst results *everyday* for us? That's great but > what if we only have 2 races for that day? <g> I'm sure you only drop > the worst 2 *if* we have 3 or more races for that day - right? > ......Right? <g> > BTW - I finally had a clean race at Talladega Friday night and had a > BLAST! > The fact that short tracks seem to run ALOT cleaner than Tally seems to be > an ironic twist to Hawaii that I never expected... > Phil > <PJYoung>

Actually... Skill levels are calculated based on your 10 most recent races. We drop the 2 worst from that window of 10. The 10 races does not really have anything to do with the day. If you race exactly 10 races in 1 day, then there is a corelation, but otherwise... We re-calculate skill levels each week day morning. Again, that calculaton is based on your 10 most recent races, regardless of when they occurred. On Hawaii, you can find a document describing skill levels in detail. It's in the "file libraries" section off of the main menu. -- Ed Martin Papyrus Design Group

: >Looking at all the race statistics, it is : >clear that less than 50% of the drivers who start a race, finish the : >race. So... all you need to do to improve your level, is finish races. : >In fact, finishing races is so important, that you should stay in a race : >even if you are 10 laps down, if you are interested in upping your skill : >level. : What about the flip side Mikey? : Say you go all the way through qualifying and then get hosed out of the : server. How much damage does that do to a higher skill level? : I ask this because I got hosed out of HCS last night and I'm still wipin' : away the tears! The inverse works that way as well. However, out of your last ten race results the lowest TWO are dropped. So, unless you get hosed 3 or more times or more out of 10, your skill level won't be hurt. : BTW, there was some really clean running on the server tonight. I ran 2 : 0-15s and was very impressed with the driving. There ARE some real sharp : new guys and gals running and I had a lot of fun running with them. : Later : MMc ML