T2 and ICR2-Lets see some best times

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>Subject: T2 and ICR2- let's see some best times >Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 21:18:12 GMT >I'm getting paranoid- I bought a T2 a week ago, and love it, except >for one detail- my times are off by a full second, and I don't appear >to be in the running to getting them back soon. And I feel like I am >doing much cleaner laps than I did with my old Virtual Pilot Pro/CH >pedal combo! >Anyway, I am doubly paranoid to hear that most of the extremely fast >laps (below 52.000 at long beach, let's say) seem to be done by >people with joysticks, and more than one has mentioned that they have >T2s but gave them up for their old systems because their times >sucked... >So here's the question- is anyone out there geting sub 52 times for >Long Beach (or the equivelent anywhere else) using a T2? And are you >one-foot or two foot driving? Do I just need another week or two to >get the times back? If so, I'll just reset my best times and pretend >I'm just a slower guy.

I recently posted a similar concern about F1GP and got a response from one of the F1 fast guys, Ivanhoe Vasiljevich, that confirmed my fears, you will probably never go as fast with a wheel/pedal system as you will with a joystick! I have had the same experience with ICR2 as I had with F1GP, after working on Longbeach for days and getting consistent laps in the high 56's I switched to the steering wheel buttons for gas and brake instead of the pedals, within five laps I took a full second of my best time and I was all over the road with tons of room for improvment. It's unfortunate, but it seems that Indycar2 and Nascar both give a performance advantage in acceleration and traction to the joystick. Having said that I should also say that although I'm slower and it's frustrating, I would never go back to a joystick, my enjoyment of the games has increased enormously since getting a wheel/pedal system, you really feel like your having a driving experience that just doesn't happen with a joystick. I particulary like having gas and brake on seperate axes and using two feet. The only driving game that the wheel/pedal system doesn't do anything to improve is Need For Speed, which ironically is the game that motivated me to buy the wheel in the first place! It's steering program is so nonlinear and inacurate that it's better with a joystick. Any of you programming aces out there know how to make it linear ? Don Scurlock

> I recently posted a similar concern about F1GP and got a response >from one of the F1 fast guys, Ivanhoe Vasiljevich, that confirmed my >fears, you will probably never go as fast with a wheel/pedal system >as you will with a joystick! That is depressing. But from what you went on to say, it sounds like the steering wheel isn't the problem, it is the pedals that slow things down. Is that right? I agree, I love the wheel. A little alarming how it seems to disintigrate on to my keyboard tho! The two foot question has also been plaguing me- do Indy or F1 drivers us two feet for accell/decell, or just one? I don't even know if they use a pedal clutch- if so, I would assume they must use right foot only for accell/decell. If anyone can answer that for me, I'll be thankful. Slow or fast, I'd like to do it the way they do it. I originally drove 2 foot, now with my T2 I'm driving one foot. Fact is, I've finally gotten my times to where they were before I bought the T2- I did a 52.677 on long beach today, my all time best. The irony is that I know I am driving so much better now than I ever have (I worked very hard after seeing my times go back up with the T2)- one wonders what the new times would be on my old setup! Fact is, I can race at 100% and win now, so I am more than happy to lvie with the T2. Thanks for the response

Ah, well, this seems to be true for _most_ tracks, but there is at least one track where driving without steering help ( with a wheel ) is superior to driving with steering-assistance. Just a few days ago the HOF-pole in Mexico went to a driver who drives without any aids at all. It seems that driving without SA ( steering assistance ) is faster at tracks which feature lots of fast left-right sweeps ( Esses in Mexico ) because you can choose your driving line freely and don't have to stick to the line that steering-help "suggests" you to use... However, driving through chicanes without SA is much harder on the other hand.... Hmm, THAT is very weird indeed because AFAIK most of the records in ICR2 were driven with a wheel and with analogue throttle/brake control ( pedals ). Laguna Seca : 1:04.751 Long Beach : 0:50.xyz and so on.... Personally I find it to be exactly the other way round. :-) I've been driving with a joystick and acc/braked with the buttons and although it wasn't too bad, when I tried it with a wheel at a friends place, acceleration and especially braking seemed to have improved noticeably .. Besides, I found that you can be more creative when driving with pedals. Driving style affects the car behaviour much more than when driving "digitally". Whatever... when GP2 ships, I'll most certainly get myself a wheel/pedal combo anyway. :-) Regards. IV ___________________________________________________________________________ Ivanhoe 'Tacho' Vasiljevich Student of Technical Physics at the - http://stud1.tuwien.ac.at/~e8925403 ___________________________________________________________________________

The answer is that some F1 drivers use two feet and some don't. Mika Hakkinen definitely uses left foot braking, but Martin Brundle doesn't. As for the pedal clutch I am not sure, I believe the Maclaren has a hand operated clutch. Regards, Paul.

The game can't distinguish between a joystick on the X axis, and a steering wheel. It can however tell digital gas/brake from analog when you set your controls, and that is where it seems to make a change in the traction/acceleration settings. But since your doing 52's and I'm doing 56's, I'll have to conceed that what's really slowing ME down is my driving! I also don't enjoy chasing setups, so I just use the qualifing setup and add fuel for just about everything in ICR2 and Nascar. Many realworld drivers in F1, Indy, Nascar, World Rally, and any class you care to mention use the left foot braking technique. F1 and Indy drivers only need to use the clutch from a standing start, once moving all up/down shifting is done clutchless, so yes, it is the most realistic way to drive the sims. Be aware that gas and brake when applied at the same time will react differently depending on whether your pedals are linked(on the same axis) or on seperate axes. Seperate axes will react realistically and is the way to go if your pedals support it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's great to know and is certainly motivating, unfortunately it has yet to be my experience. But as I mentioned above, my driving has room to improve as do my setups. I do seem to remember Rick Genter acknowledging the digital traction/ acceleration advantage in a recent post, am I'm wrong ? I couldn't agree more, not to mention the increase in the fun factor. I highly recommend a system that supports seperate axes for gas/brake, it really adds to the realism. Don Scurlock

<snip> Please excuse the extreme snipping.... but here's an open question for Rick Genter or anyone else with an inside scoop at Papyrus. " I s t h i s t r u e ? " C'mon, don't leave us hangin' If so, then if I wish to compete with one of the virtual race scenarios, I should only race against others with a T2 or other wheel/pedal combo and not against a joystick player. The odds would be against me for having a better input system. [Possible scenario?] A joystick is a "single joystick" input device, and the T2 is setup as a "dual joystick" device. Could this make a difference? ...and if it did, could I use the adaptor to make the T2 act as a single joystick and gain back that lost "edge"? BTW, Rick, I've tried not to flood you with questions on the newsgroups, I think you're probably insane for getting your nose in here. Quite a few people seem to like to use you for a punching bag-or at least a focal point for frustration. I won't. But since you're here, I can't think of a better place to get the truth. ..if you dare to tell. :-) thanks Mike

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>> It's unfortunate, but it seems that Indycar2 and Nascar both >> give a performance advantage in acceleration and traction to the >> joystick.<snip) >> Don Scurlock >Please excuse the extreme snipping.... but here's an open question >for Rick Genter or anyone else with an inside scoop at Papyrus. >" I s t h i s t r u e ? " >C'mon, don't leave us hangin'

The difference between analog and digital traction will be removed in the DOS patch. As far as acceleration/braking goes, currently there is no difference in terms of maximum acceleration/braking. However, with analog control you will not achieve maximum acceleration/braking unless you are at the absolute end of your control's range. This means that calibration is extremely important, as well as the quality of your analog device. Being just one count off can give you as much as 1% less acceleration/braking force. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line, Inc.

<snip> ? Many realworld drivers in F1, Indy, Nascar, World Rally, and any class ?you care to mention use the left foot braking technique. F1 and Indy ?drivers only need to use the clutch from a standing start, once moving ?all up/down shifting is done clutchless, so yes, it is the most realistic ?way to drive the sims. <snip> I remember hearing somewhere that in some kind of car racing (completely forget which), they use double-clutching (?), meaning that the drivers engage the clutch to first shift into neutral where the RPMs are raised to a desired level, and then again to shift into their desired gear. That all sounds rather difficult. But I can't for the life of me remember which racing sport this technique was used in (or if it was false to being with). Any ideas? Thanks! --Evan

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> The difference between analog and digital traction will be removed in ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >the DOS patch. As far as acceleration/braking goes, currently there is >no difference in terms of maximum acceleration/braking. However, with > analog > control you will not achieve maximum acceleration/braking unless you are > at the absolute end of your control's range. This means that calibration > is extremely important, as well as the quality of your analog device. > Being just one count off can give you as much as 1% less > acceleration/braking force. > Rick Genter

Rick. Thanks for the reply. I'm dissapointed that there is a traction difference.... Someone has obviously underestimated those with digital input!! It is correct to assume that, in the case of analog throttle input, the total acceleration could be off a tick... and if you don't "stab" the throttle when you want full acceleration, the person who pushes a button will have an advantage. This is because the button is instant, but it takes "time" for your foot to travel from min to max on a pedal. However, the ability to use half throttle around a corner instead of cycling "on - off" with a button *should* more than make up for it. Maybe we just need to get out of "game mode" and into "sim mode" and learn to drive again??? :-) Mike

>This is because the button is instant, but it takes "time" for >your foot to travel from min to max on a pedal. The button does not work this way: when we detect the button on we ramp up the throttle (braking) to full, albeit over a short period of time. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line, Inc.

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> This means that calibration > is extremely important, as well as the quality of your analog device. > Being just one count off can give you as much as 1% less > acceleration/braking force. > Rick Genter > Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II > Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Rick, Would you then advise us to "short calibrate" our brake and throttle limits? This would guarantee reaching the limits but does the sim freak if the limits are exceeded? I know, I should/will test it myself :) This might be a good tip because I know that my values vary during the calibration step. Jeff Haas

the whole thing boils down to preferrence. some of the very fastest guys around are using wheels. some of them are using sticks. some folks go faster with sticks than wheels, but i can assure you that for MY preferrence, i'm almost 1 sec faster with a wheel than a stick, and i have mulitples of each.

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><snip> >> It's unfortunate, but it seems that Indycar2 and Nascar both >> give a performance advantage in acceleration and traction to the >> joystick.<snip) >> Don Scurlock >Please excuse the extreme snipping.... but here's an open question >for Rick Genter or anyone else with an inside scoop at Papyrus. >" I s t h i s t r u e ? " >C'mon, don't leave us hangin' >If so, then if I wish to compete with one of the virtual race scenarios, I should only >race against others with a T2 or other wheel/pedal combo and not against a joystick >player. The odds would be against me for having a better input system. >[Possible scenario?] A joystick is a "single joystick" input device, and the T2 is setup >as a "dual joystick" device. Could this make a difference? ...and if it did, could I >use the adaptor to make the T2 act as a single joystick and gain back that lost "edge"? >BTW, Rick, I've tried not to flood you with questions on the newsgroups, I think you're >probably insane for getting your nose in here. Quite a few people seem to like to use >you for a punching bag-or at least a focal point for frustration. I won't. But since >you're here, I can't think of a better place to get the truth. >..if you dare to tell. :-) >thanks >Mike

-- Brian Wong Systems Engineering Group (Servers)

... How's the T2 rate amongst your multiples, and do you prefer 2 foot or one foot "pedalling"?

> ... > >for MY preferrence, i'm almost 1 sec faster with a wheel than a stick, > >and i have mulitples of each. > How's the T2 rate amongst your multiples, and do you prefer 2 foot or > one foot "pedalling"? T2 is the best for realism. This is a simulation, right? I use 2 foot "pedalling" and my times are descent. I also like the t2 because it allows you to vary the throttle and brake input. This unlike a joy stick where Throttle/brake are just on or off. Later