Laguna Seca Problems

Hey everybody I was wondering if anyone has had any problems with their car dissapearing in turn 8A at Laguna Seca because everytime I go around that turn it seems to make car vanish. Well thank you for your time.

>Hey everybody I was wondering if anyone has had any problems with their >car dissapearing in turn 8A at Laguna Seca because everytime I go around >that turn it seems to make car vanish. Well thank you for your time. ya, that was one of the bugs that they told us about in the little installation booklet that came in the original box. Question: how did they miss the over-rev light bug? I noticed that within 5 minutes of playing ICR2.

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> >Hey everybody I was wondering if anyone has had any problems with their > >car dissapearing in turn 8A at Laguna Seca because everytime I go around > >that turn it seems to make car vanish. Well thank you for your time. > ya, that was one of the bugs that they told us about in the little > installation booklet that came in the original box. > Question: how did they miss the over-rev light bug? I noticed that > within 5 minutes of playing ICR2.

Simple answer: No time. ICR2 just had to be released before Xmas '95. I wonder how many copies of ICR2 has been sold. Less than 100,000 ? I'll bet the Win95 version of the game will sell very poorly indeed. Win95 really hasn't made an impact on the games market because it really isn't that popular with the game community because it is unstable and considered another annoying obstacle between gamers and their games. On another note the game supporting packages that was promised to make game development so much easier hasn't really arrived until some months ago, eg. Direct3D. Advice to Papy: Don't beat/make any deadlines - it yields bugs galore. It's better to be late than erroneous. I wonder how long they have been working on the patch... -- --- Terje Wold Johansen --- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ --- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

> Snip! > Question: how did they miss the over-rev light bug? I noticed that > within 5 minutes of playing ICR2. The dumb thing is that it works in the "Arcade" view (F10)..it shows your RPM's in text, and goes red when they're too high... -- Meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

then again, Terje, if Papyrus wanted bug free programming, they might end up delaying ICR2.x as long as Geoff Crammond has had to delay World Circuit II/F1GP2 --- right now, about 6 months! -r -- Robin Chung Aspiring F-1 Pilot Senior Performance Architect, MTI-IV Aspiring F-1 Vehicle Dynamicist AMA#699255 HRC#HM402849 FAX:(510) 642 4769 "Okay, what kind of *sick* doggie***film is this?!!" Phoebe on Old Yeller

> then again, Terje, if Papyrus wanted bug free programming, they might end > up delaying ICR2.x as long as Geoff Crammond has had to delay World > Circuit II/F1GP2 --- right now, about 6 months! Maybe. You see, the deadlines set for games are as restrictive as in the old days while the actual process of making a game/sim has increased in complexity no end. That's one of the reasons we are seeing more and more products with a lot of bugs in it. If this trend continues the costumers and ultimately the people and the companies behind the products will suffer greatly. That's why I am very disappointed in Papyrus. On another note ICR2 as it is now has provided me with many quality moments. But it is ultimately a let down because Papyrus hasn't released a patch. If they would like to keep me happy I would have liked to see a patch released every third month or so until the sim worked as promised. This has not happened. A lot of people are not happy because of this. One reason that the patch has been delayed is the forthcoming release of ICR2 for Win95. In my estimate they don't want people to have a working version for DOS before the Win95 version is released. Economics. Understandable but nevertheless regrettable. Btw I remember a post by someone that said that the patch was ready to ship but they did not know exactly how they were going to do it. I may be mistaken about the originator of the post, who I think was Rick Genter of Papyrus, but I am 100% sure I read it here in r.a.s. -- --- Terje Wold Johansen --- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ --- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

You are incorrect. The "patch" is not ready to ship and probably will not be until the Windows 95 version is ready to ship. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

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> Wold Johansen) writes: > >Btw I remember a post by someone that said that the patch > >was ready to ship but they did not know exactly how they were going > >to do it. I may be mistaken about the originator of the post, > >who I think was Rick Genter of Papyrus, but I am 100% sure I read it > >here in r.a.s. > You are incorrect. The "patch" is not ready to ship and probably will not > be until the Windows 95 version is ready to ship. > Rick Genter

But the Win95 version of ICR2 will not be out in June, right? I know that all the DirectXX packages from Microsoft is either at the beta stage or just made the final release stage(eg. DirectDraw). That must affect the schedule of ICR2. Btw do you fear that if you release the "patch" for DOS, which seems to me to be an extensive revision by the way, prior to the Win95 version the patch will affect its sales? -- --- Terje Wold Johansen --- http://www.ifi.uio.no/~terjjo/ --- "I am your inferior superior." O.W.

The Windows 95 version of IndyCar Racing II is shipping in June. It does not use Direct3D, but it does use DirectDraw, DirectSound and DirectInput. No, we do not "fear that if we release the 'patch' for DOS...the patch will affect its sales"? The Windows 95 version is being made available to DOS purchasers as a "patch" as well. There are people who will purchase the Windows 95 version who would not purchase the DOS version. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

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> Wold Johansen) writes: > >Btw I remember a post by someone that said that the patch > >was ready to ship but they did not know exactly how they were going > >to do it. I may be mistaken about the originator of the post, > >who I think was Rick Genter of Papyrus, but I am 100% sure I read it > >here in r.a.s. > You are incorrect. The "patch" is not ready to ship and probably will not > be until the Windows 95 version is ready to ship. > Rick Genter > Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II > Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Really Rick, I don't see why this is the case...ICR2 has been out for what, five months? I think you've slated ICR2 for Win95 for...June, was it? That then means that we will have waited 7 months (if you get the Win95 version out on time!) for a patch to fix something that will make ICR2 a complete package that we've alreay bought and paid for? That's ridiculous.... Within 5 months of the release of ICR, you had several patches out. The main patch requirements for ICR2 seem simple: 1) Fix the yellow flag bug (most important) 2) Fix the silly overrev light on the dash (the code is already there!) 3) Fix the paintkit..or actually, adjust the bitmapping on the pod sides; the right and left sides aren't even, and that's what causes the lines to show. And the "warping" problems that people have reported are secondary to the above, IMHO. These simple fixes *should* have been out by now, especially #1. Yellow flags are an essential part of CART racing. If you've fixed these problems in the Win95 version, great. However, based on what I've seen in other Win95 games, I'll stick with my DOS version, thanks. I expect ICR2 for Win95 to be a *really* slick GUI for car setup with a graphics engine that's slower than the DOS one...and I probably won't buy it. ....so fix the product I've bought! Please. Thanks for your attention. -- Meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

: The Windows 95 version of IndyCar Racing II is shipping in June. It does : not use Direct3D, but it does use DirectDraw, DirectSound and DirectInput. : No, we do not "fear that if we release the 'patch' for DOS...the patch : will affect its sales"? The Windows 95 version is being made available to : DOS purchasers as a "patch" as well. There are people who will purchase : the Windows 95 version who would not purchase the DOS version. Okay Rick, I know that you have to speak "carefully" if at all on "future" Papyrus products, but. . . Should we then expect some better graphics speed if our video card/drivers support DirectDraw? I'm still looking for a few more fps from my ATI Mach64. I was hoping that SciTechSoft would be fixing the problem with the Univbe & ICR2. But it looks like they are as behind on their upgrade as Microprose is with F1GP2, as well as Papyrus has been with a patch for ICR2. (Sorry about that, I know you have your reasons, I've just been patiently waiting since November. I hope you make your June date, it will make a great birthday present for me.) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I expect ICR2 for Win95 to be a *really* slick GUI for car setup with a graphics engine that's slower than the DOS one...and I probably won't buy it. ....so fix the product I've bought! Please. Thanks for your attention. <<< The speed of the graphics engine is virtually the same as the DOS version; it really depends on how well your video card is supported by UniVBE vs. how well it is supported by DirectX. Some systems see higher frame rates under Windows 95; some see higher under DOS. I'm not going to get into a debate about how we schedule work, but I will say that when IndyCar Racing (ICR 1) shipped, it was Papyrus' only project. The same went for NASCAR Racing. With IndyCar Racing II (ICR 2), Papyrus was/is working on six different projects at once. "Generating a patch" is not a trivial matter, certainly not as trivial as people seem to think. The only way we could produce a patch for the DOS version of IndyCar Racing II without further slipping the Windows 95 and Macintosh versions was to coordinate the fixes into the schedule, and that means not being able to release the patch until the Windows 95 and Macintosh versions are released. The good news is that, so far, the Windows 95 version has remained on schedule for a mid-June release (we haven't varied from the schedule by more than a few days in 5 months now). We have a longer beta period scheduled for the Windows 95 version than we did for the DOS version, and we're not under the kind of pressure we were under for the DOS version (though we are under pressure to release before the end of June). So far we've managed to fix the major problems that have been found including the traction bug and the digital/analog throttle disparity, but not the yellow flag problems (I'm working on that next week). And since you bought the DOS version, you don't have to buy the Windows 95 version. You'll be able to download a "patch" for that as well. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

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>I expect ICR2 for Win95 to be a *really* slick GUI for car setup with a >graphics engine that's slower than the DOS one...and I probably won't >buy it. >....so fix the product I've bought! Please. Thanks for your attention. ><<< >The speed of the graphics engine is virtually the same as the DOS version; >it really depends on how well your video card is supported by UniVBE vs. >how well it is supported by DirectX. Some systems see higher frame rates >under Windows 95; some see higher under DOS.

Hi Rick, I'm curious if you've yet done any testing of the Win95 version with any of the 3D graphics cards, and if so how does it perform? e.g., Is it faster than a fast Pentium without a 3D card? Joe

As a follow-up to that, a workaround for that was released by Gerhard Lingenberg to allow the guys doing carsets to release top quality cars. Took him a couple of days - mayge we should ask him about the yellow flag bug too...! Seems maybe quicker than waiting until June, July, whenever. Cheers! John _________________________________ __ _____| |_____ __ _________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________ \ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | / > :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | < / :|__|::|____:/ -=Ayrton Senna=- \.____|::|__| \ /_______:/ \::/ Racing is in my ***, it's part of me \::/ \._______\

: You are incorrect. The "patch" is not ready to ship and probably will not : be until the Windows 95 version is ready to ship. Rick, the story about the patch being ready is based on postings such as the following posting found on American On-Line: ---------------------------- Following from AOL ----------------------- Subj: Re:ICR2 bug fixes ??? Date: 96-02-16 16:31:47 EST From: Papyrus2 -- in a couple of weeks from now. Steve, Papyrus ---------------------------- End of AOL posting ----------------------- This posting came directly off of the Papyrus Technical Support Forum on AOL. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

[major snipping] : And since you bought the DOS version, you don't have to buy the Windows 95 : version. You'll be able to download a "patch" for that as well. : Rick Genter : Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II : Papyrus Design Group, Inc. Thanks Rick for posting the above reply (even the stuff I snipped). You (you being Papyrus) take quite a bit of flack from some of your more vocal users here on the net. (I have to include myself on a number of occassions.) Thanks for taking the time to explain what's going on. I feel better about having to wait. I just think that if we could get this type of response earlier on, we wouldn't be so agitated. I will patiently await the release (well as patiently as I can :-)). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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>: You are incorrect. The "patch" is not ready to ship and probably will not >: be until the Windows 95 version is ready to ship. >Rick, the story about the patch being ready is based on postings such as >the following posting found on American On-Line: >---------------------------- Following from AOL ----------------------- >Subj: Re:ICR2 bug fixes ??? >Date: 96-02-16 16:31:47 EST >From: Papyrus2 >> We spent the bucks for a broken program and just >> want to know when Papyrus/Sierra will make good the merchandise as >> promised... >-- >in a couple of weeks from now. >Steve, >Papyrus >---------------------------- End of AOL posting ----------------------- >This posting came directly off of the Papyrus Technical Support Forum on >AOL.

Michael Carter, Thanks for finding this message. I was the guy who started the thread "A patch anytime soon". Genter quickly slammed me for spelling his name wrong and misquoting him. Well to Mr. Genter, your right...you didn't say it. But Papyrus did, so BITE ME!!! With respect to your earlier post where you said, "Generating a patch" is not a trivial matter, certainly not as trivial as people seem to think. The only way we could produce a patch for the DOS version of IndyCar Racing II without further slipping the Windows 95 and Macintosh versions was to coordinate the fixes into the schedule, and that means not being able to release the patch until the Windows 95 and Macintosh versions are released.", I can't imagine how you can justify your actions with a statement like this. This is sheer irresponsibility. This reminds me of your first release of ICR. You knew that the modem play did not work, yet you released it anyway. Release and fix later(maybe)...Release and fix later...Release and fix later. Seems to be a pattern with your group. By now Genter is probably saying, "what an ***". But he needs to remember, we've already supported Papyrus by purchasing their products. It is now their responsibility to support us. Are we here because of Papyrus or is Papyrus here because of us? Mike Hatten

> The speed of the graphics engine is virtually the same as the DOS version; > it really depends on how well your video card is supported by UniVBE vs. > how well it is supported by DirectX. Some systems see higher frame rates > under Windows 95; some see higher under DOS. I've already got my DirectX drivers loading for my Matrox Millennium. In DOS I don't run UniVBE; my card is already VESA 2.0, so I don't need it (nor could I use it even if I wanted to). Rick, isn't it reasonable for me to assume that if you come up with a yellow flag bug fix for Win95, the code could be ported over to the DOS version? Yup...I bought a *nearly* complete ICR2 for DOS. Is the Win95 version going to be complete, or are we going to be having the same conversation in July? Don't get me wrong, Rick, I love the game...Papyrus has done some wonderful things for us racing geeks...It's just that these bugs are analogous to having buttons that don't work on the dashboard of my car, but "they'll work in the new model, so why don't you buy that one?". Maybe I'll like the new car, but I haven't seen it yet, and I already like the car I bought... And I'm not going to ask you to "BITE ME"... :) -- Meek and obedient you follow the leader down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel.. Neil Yeatman, Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

If you are not able to use UniVBE on DOS and your card is supported by DirectDraw, then yes, you should see a significant frame rate improvement. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

Yes, but since we are not using Direct3D, the fact that the card is a 3D card makes no difference to the game. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

E. Carver) writes: >: You are incorrect. The "patch" is not ready to ship and probably will not

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>: be until the Windows 95 version is ready to ship. >Rick, the story about the patch being ready is based on postings such as >the following posting found on American On-Line: >---------------------------- Following from AOL ----------------------- >Subj: Re:ICR2 bug fixes ??? >Date: 96-02-16 16:31:47 EST >From: Papyrus2 >> We spent the bucks for a broken program and just >> want to know when Papyrus/Sierra will make good the merchandise as >> promised... >-- >in a couple of weeks from now. >Steve, >Papyrus >---------------------------- End of AOL posting ----------------------- >This posting came directly off of the Papyrus Technical Support Forum on >AOL. >--

Yeah, I know about that posting :-(. Steve was (obviously) wrong. I had a talk with our tech support manager when that posting came out, but it all became moot when Sierra took over tech support on March 11. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

>Rick, isn't it reasonable for me to assume that if you come up with a yellow >flag bug fix for Win95, the code could be ported over to the DOS version? Yes, and it will be. A patch for DOS will be released at the same time as the Windows 95 version. (Can I make it any clearer than that?) Rick ("I've had my rabies shots, have you had yours :-)?") Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Papyrus Design Group, Inc.

SIX PROJECTS?!? Holy cow, xmas is coming!<g> I am NOT paranoid. And why are you always watching me?!? Eldred Pickett

>And since you bought the DOS version, you don't have to buy the Windows 95 >version. You'll be able to download a "patch" for that as well. Thanks! I definitely appreciate the fact that you guys are making good on your commitments to the people that bought your DOS products! Not all companies do that. Randy

>Yes, but since we are not using Direct3D, the fact that the card is a 3D >card makes no difference to the game. Why is this? Doesn't this defeat the main benefit of a Win95 game? Joe

Not at all. DirectDraw and DirectSound are pretty compelling as well. In fact, many of the first generation 3D cards are not as fast as their manufacturers would like; we've seen a couple that were 3D *decelerators* - our engine on a medium Pentium (P-90) would out perform the 3D card. Rick Genter Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II Sierra On-Line

<snip> I just *KNEW* he would have a strange sense of humor!

: >Yes, but since we are not using Direct3D, the fact that the card is a 3D : >card makes no difference to the game. : Why is this? Doesn't this defeat the main benefit of a Win95 game? Not totally, there is also the DirectDraw feature for *** development in Win95. Depending on the boards' ability and other accelerated features one should see improvement in Win95 with DirectDraw. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

rr >- our engine on a medium Pentium (P-90) would out perform rr >the 3D card. Showoff :-) +++++ + | +-+ +-+ |\ | -+ +-+ | | | \| BBS - +44 1494 758998 - The best F1 pics, movies and info, Psion stuff, Oasis stuff and more! Free Usenet and E-mail to all! -- || P S Y C H O T I C M O U S E B B S + 4 4 1 4 9 4 7 5 8 9 9 8 || || Free usenet and e-mail access to anyone in the world. Yes, ANYONE! || ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Fidonet address .. John Portwin 2:252/337