How long will iRacing survive as subscription service?

My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program. Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late this year or early next year before a trend is truly recognizable. For some older, long time racing players, iRacing may turn out to be the last "fling" with spending a lot of time online. If iRacing were to cease being a subscription service and converted into a purchaseable game, what would players be willing to pay for it? The only previous subscription racing game I can recall was EA's Motor City Online, which lasted almost 3 years (October 2001 to August 2004). It was never released as an offline game. Another failed subscription game was URU Live, part of the Myst series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the works was eventually released as two games.

[email hidden] (jeffareid) wrote: > My guess is about 3 years I think I agree with you on just about everything. I will be very surprised -- no doubt pleasantly -- if iRacing survives in its current form for more than a few years... perhaps less if funding is pulled after any early disappointments. When push comes to shove it is 'just another sim' no matter how high their hopes of drawing in a wider audience, and they don't exist in a sim vacuum. With 40 staff or so to support (judging by interviews given in the past) that's going to require very significant revenue streams, and I don't see it coming from the current financial model. I may be wrong, but once the public release happens they'll finally get an idea what kind of pent up demand there is for their product. I'm anticipating some disappointment, though they may have enough funding in the bank to allow for a very slow & steady (hopefully) build up in subscribers. We'll see. It's a brave attempt to break the simming mould, and I'm increasingly finding myself inclined to keep subscribing until after the public release (at least) just to keep in touch with how iRacing responds. > If iRacing were to cease being a subscription service > and converted into a purchaseable game, what would > players be willing to pay for it? I think there's no alternative to a basic subscription service (with a premium bolt-on for higher leagues available?), given their aims. However the subscription price needs to come down to the point where people don't have to think twice about continuing even if they don't race much. That would probably involve scaling down their operation and aims, but it might ensure the project's survival for more than a short time once Henry's investment money runs out. He can;t have a bottomless wallet. Andrew McP PS Currently I believe (from reading the forums) there are between 3 & 4k subscribers. That's not bad considering its a closed programme. However so far invites have only gone out to those most likely to subscribe. I'll be genuinely fascinated to see what happens after the public debut.

The recent demise of 10tacle and the resulting loss of all internet racing capability in GTR2 (unless you jump through burning hoops using OpenVPN to simulate a "LAN event" to the software) shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online eggs into one company's basket. No idea what would happen to the rF lobby should ISI close shop tomorrow, but I guess with all its moddability rF could be tweaked to use an alterate lobby system. All the best, Uwe --

"jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:m27ok.20247$[email hidden]...

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> My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the > money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program. > > Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just > as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late > this year or early next year before a trend is truly recognizable. > > For some older, long time racing players, iRacing may turn out > to be the last "fling" with spending a lot of time online. > > If iRacing were to cease being a subscription service and converted > into a purchaseable game, what would players be willing to pay for > it? > > The only previous subscription racing game I can recall was EA's > Motor City Online, which lasted almost 3 years (October 2001 to > August 2004). It was never released as an offline game. > > Another failed subscription game was URU Live, part of the Myst > series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the > works was eventually released as two games. > >

Subscription has nothing to do with it. There is a constamt influx of youth into the world and also older people who consider sim racing for the first time later in their life. When either group check out what's available, they will simply migrate to the best sim that offers what they're looking for. It's just that simple. What so many of you are failing to understand also, is that iRacing is not just a sim - it's a service that offers MUCH more than any sim in a box ever will. It has been my view for donkeys years that what iRacing is doing right now is what sim racing has always needed - organised and officially sactioned sim racing as a sport. They have taken it a step further by making it a proper training tool for real life racers.

[email hidden] (hoover) wrote: > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online > eggs into one company's basket. It would be nice to think that if iRacing folded, the enthusiasts on the team would ensure their work didn't die with them. But given the corporate nature of the company and backing, I suspect if they decided to shut the door they'd still want to sit very tight on the intellectual property rights. So everyone would have to wave goodbye to their investment in time and money. That's quite a risk really, and that in itself might make it more likely iRacing fails... a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. Andrew McP

[email hidden] (Byron Forbes) wrote: > It's just that simple. Hopefully you're right. Andrew McP

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>> Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just >> as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late >> this year or early next year before a trend is truly recognizable. > Subscription has nothing to do with it. There is a constamt influx of youth into the world and also older people who > consider sim racing for the first time later in their life. When either group check out what's available, they will > simply migrate to the best sim that offers what they're looking for.

In my area, (USA), most of the youth that are playing games of any type are either into console games, first person shooters, or role playing games. Simulation oriented racing games are a tiny market in the USA, so I don't know how it is outside the USA, but currently, it seems that iRacing servers will only be based in the USA, resulting in lag issues for players from other countries. I just don't see that many people migrating to any racing sim these days, as it's my opinion that the heydays of sim racing are gone. It was moderately popular from about 1999 to 2005 and since then interest has waned, for multple reasons; player burn out, a much larger variety of games available now, plus all the add-ons for these games splintering the player pool into small groups. What's left is a dedicated core of racing sim players, and I question if there are enough of them for iRacing's current business model to sustain it for more than about 3 years. > What so many of you are failing to understand also, is that iRacing is not just a sim - it's a service that offers > much more than any sim in a box ever will. What is the advantage of a service versus a boxed or downloadable and expandable game? The disadvantage is obvious, if the service goes away, so does your game. This is the question that potential subscribers will be asking.

I have one question. Are you, or have you, ever signed up for iRacing ? -Larry "jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:m27ok.20247$[email hidden]...

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> My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the > money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program. > > Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just > as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late > this year or early next year before a trend is truly recognizable. > > For some older, long time racing players, iRacing may turn out > to be the last "fling" with spending a lot of time online. > > If iRacing were to cease being a subscription service and converted > into a purchaseable game, what would players be willing to pay for > it? > > The only previous subscription racing game I can recall was EA's > Motor City Online, which lasted almost 3 years (October 2001 to > August 2004). It was never released as an offline game. > > Another failed subscription game was URU Live, part of the Myst > series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the > works was eventually released as two games. > >

"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] (hoover) wrote: > > > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online > > eggs into one company's basket. > > It would be nice to think that if iRacing folded, the enthusiasts on the > team would ensure their work didn't die with them. But given the > corporate nature of the company and backing, I suspect if they decided to > shut the door they'd still want to sit very tight on the intellectual > property rights. So everyone would have to wave goodbye to their > investment in time and money. > > That's quite a risk really, and that in itself might make it more likely > iRacing fails... a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. > > Andrew McP

Not only that, but if I'm not mistaken, iracing requires online activation, etc. If so, good luck running the program you *paid* for, if/once the activation servers go down for good. Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll release a patch so that activation, etc. isn't required anymore" line will come out. In reality, that has yet to happen from all parties that have said it in the past. Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items.

iRacing does not use activation. It does not need it. It is an ONLINE ONLY service. Everything is done via the web page. -Larry "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:emgok.729$[email hidden]...

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> > "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> [email hidden] (hoover) wrote: >> >> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online >> > eggs into one company's basket. >> >> It would be nice to think that if iRacing folded, the enthusiasts on the >> team would ensure their work didn't die with them. But given the >> corporate nature of the company and backing, I suspect if they decided to >> shut the door they'd still want to sit very tight on the intellectual >> property rights. So everyone would have to wave goodbye to their >> investment in time and money. >> >> That's quite a risk really, and that in itself might make it more likely >> iRacing fails... a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. >> >> Andrew McP > > > Not only that, but if I'm not mistaken, iracing requires online > activation, etc. If so, good luck running the program you *paid* for, > if/once the activation servers go down for good. > > Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll > release > a patch so that activation, etc. isn't required anymore" line will come > out. > In reality, that has yet to happen from all parties that have said it in > the > past. > > Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items. > >

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> "jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:m27ok.20247$[email hidden]... >> My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the >> money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program. >> >> Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just >> as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late >> this year or early next year before a trend is truly recognizable. >> >> For some older, long time racing players, iRacing may turn out >> to be the last "fling" with spending a lot of time online. >> >> If iRacing were to cease being a subscription service and converted >> into a purchaseable game, what would players be willing to pay for >> it? >> >> The only previous subscription racing game I can recall was EA's >> Motor City Online, which lasted almost 3 years (October 2001 to >> August 2004). It was never released as an offline game. >> >> Another failed subscription game was URU Live, part of the Myst >> series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the >> works was eventually released as two games. >> >> >

I think this sim will last for a very long time. As an aspiring, but crap sim racer, this is just the kind of thing I've been looking for. A proper persistent league. I have actually been in races now where I'm battling the last 3 or 4 places in the race - awesome fun. I remember on one occasion I spooked the guy in front so much that he spun on the barrel roll in Laguna - luckily I was slow enough at that point that I could avoid him. Playing against real people definetley makes a difference. Another advantage that iRacing seems to have is that it's sim seems to be separated from the league stuff. In theory if new sim technology gets developed or new graphics techniques come to the fore, iRacing can just release an updated sim. They would be in a much stronger position to do this, compared to other Software Houses as they will have a continuous revenue stream. My only concern is the price. Personally I think if it's going to be 20$ a month, the rest of the package, in terms of new tracks and cars should be free. This makes for a much more attractive package. RobP

You really do not want to pay per month. The first month to try it out? Sure. But after that if you decide you are going to do it, DO IT! Buy the full year. It drops the price down to $13 a month ($156 for the year) AND: 1. You get $60 iRacing credit to spend as you wish for future purchases (cars, tracks or if anything is left over, your next subscription year if you wish). 2. Don't forget, there are discounts for buying things in groups. I believe 6 items (cars or tracks) net a 20% discount. $13 a month is less than a single pizza, delivered. Think about it :) Considering the investment JH & Co have put into this, it is not really that expensive. Frankly, I was sure it was going to cost twice this much. -Larry "Rob P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Lejok.3982$[email hidden]... > My only concern is the price. Personally I think if it's going to be 20$ a > month, the rest of the package, in terms of new tracks and cars should be > free. This makes for a much more attractive package. > > RobP

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:emgok.729$[email hidden]...

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> > "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >> [email hidden] (hoover) wrote: >> >> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online >> > eggs into one company's basket. >> >> It would be nice to think that if iRacing folded, the enthusiasts on the >> team would ensure their work didn't die with them. But given the >> corporate nature of the company and backing, I suspect if they decided to >> shut the door they'd still want to sit very tight on the intellectual >> property rights. So everyone would have to wave goodbye to their >> investment in time and money. >> >> That's quite a risk really, and that in itself might make it more likely >> iRacing fails... a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. >> >> Andrew McP > > > Not only that, but if I'm not mistaken, iracing requires online > activation, etc. If so, good luck running the program you *paid* for, > if/once the activation servers go down for good.

It isn't 'paid' for! One pays to use (hire) it. It's a simple enough concept.

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> Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll > release > a patch so that activation, etc. isn't required anymore" line will come > out. > In reality, that has yet to happen from all parties that have said it in > the > past.

So now you can see into the future. > Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items. Hmmm.

Larry wrote: > iRacing does not use activation. It does not need it. It is an ONLINE > ONLY service. Everything is done via the web page. That IS the activation. No website, no racing.

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> > -Larry > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:emgok.729$[email hidden]... >> >> "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:[email hidden]... >>> [email hidden] (hoover) wrote: >>> >>> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online >>> > eggs into one company's basket. >>> >>> It would be nice to think that if iRacing folded, the enthusiasts on the >>> team would ensure their work didn't die with them. But given the >>> corporate nature of the company and backing, I suspect if they >>> decided to >>> shut the door they'd still want to sit very tight on the intellectual >>> property rights. So everyone would have to wave goodbye to their >>> investment in time and money. >>> >>> That's quite a risk really, and that in itself might make it more likely >>> iRacing fails... a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. >>> >>> Andrew McP >> >> >> Not only that, but if I'm not mistaken, iracing requires online >> activation, etc. If so, good luck running the program you *paid* for, >> if/once the activation servers go down for good. >> >> Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll >> release >> a patch so that activation, etc. isn't required anymore" line will >> come out. >> In reality, that has yet to happen from all parties that have said it >> in the >> past. >> >> Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items. >> >> >

"Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Vvjok.17798$[email hidden]...

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> You really do not want to pay per month. The first month to try it out? > Sure. But after that if you decide you are going to do it, DO IT! > > Buy the full year. It drops the price down to $13 a month ($156 for the > year) AND: > > 1. You get $60 iRacing credit to spend as you wish for future purchases > (cars, tracks or if anything is left over, your next subscription year if > you wish). > > 2. Don't forget, there are discounts for buying things in groups. I > believe 6 items (cars or tracks) net a 20% discount. > > $13 a month is less than a single pizza, delivered. Think about it :) > > Considering the investment JH & Co have put into this, it is not really > that expensive. Frankly, I was sure it was going to cost twice this much. > > -Larry > >

The year package is certainly a pretty good deal. The only problem is that my family and I suspect most others, operate on a monthly budget and $156 is quite a whack from one month. In addition, I wouldn't buy an annual package until the sim has been out a while. Didn't know about the discounts on buying the extras and that is certainly welcome news. I still think, despite the work that's gone in, that the subscription should cover the cost of the vehicles and tracks. Maybe I'm to used to MMO's where one buys the game, subscribes for 16 dollars or so and gets pretty much all the content, plus new regular content and the publisher keeps track of various leagues like PvP. Despite this, iRacing must have got their sums right, as it is very likely that I will be staying, even at the $20 a month model... RobP

Jeez, what a stretch, all in the name of using a word so hated in the end-user software community. Nice Job! -Larry "Ronald Stoehr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:g7sjj2$7bb$[email hidden]... > Larry wrote: >> iRacing does not use activation. It does not need it. It is an ONLINE >> ONLY service. Everything is done via the web page. > > That IS the activation. No website, no racing.

You're talking 6 figures plus to laser-scan a track. At least that's what I read. I can understand them asking a bit for it :) -Larry "Rob P" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:olkok.68835$[email hidden]...

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> "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:Vvjok.17798$[email hidden]... >> You really do not want to pay per month. The first month to try it out? >> Sure. But after that if you decide you are going to do it, DO IT! >> >> Buy the full year. It drops the price down to $13 a month ($156 for the >> year) AND: >> >> 1. You get $60 iRacing credit to spend as you wish for future purchases >> (cars, tracks or if anything is left over, your next subscription year if >> you wish). >> >> 2. Don't forget, there are discounts for buying things in groups. I >> believe 6 items (cars or tracks) net a 20% discount. >> >> $13 a month is less than a single pizza, delivered. Think about it :) >> >> Considering the investment JH & Co have put into this, it is not really >> that expensive. Frankly, I was sure it was going to cost twice this >> much. >> >> -Larry >> >> > > The year package is certainly a pretty good deal. The only problem is that > my family and I suspect most others, operate on a monthly budget and $156 > is quite a whack from one month. In addition, I wouldn't buy an annual > package until the sim has been out a while. > > Didn't know about the discounts on buying the extras and that is certainly > welcome news. > > I still think, despite the work that's gone in, that the subscription > should cover the cost of the vehicles and tracks. Maybe I'm to used to > MMO's where one buys the game, subscribes for 16 dollars or so and gets > pretty much all the content, plus new regular content and the publisher > keeps track of various leagues like PvP. > > Despite this, iRacing must have got their sums right, as it is very likely > that I will be staying, even at the $20 a month model... > > RobP > > >

> Are you, or have you, ever signed up for iRacing ? No, and no plans to do so in the near future. Currently I'm in casual gaming mode, but may join iRacing in the not so near future if it looks like it will survive.

> You're talking 6 figures plus to laser-scan a track. > At least that's what I read. I can understand them asking a bit for it. Probably off by a factor 10 or more. I can imaging the cost ranging from 10,000 to 100,000, depending on the track rental costs (if there's an off season, the lower end of this range). Some guy laser scanned Eastern Creek on a "budget" for about $3,000, but his track time was free (Eastern Creek considered it publicity for their track), and he rented a moderately priced laser scanner. The track is a free addon for rFactor. Videos of the track: http://jeffareid.net/rfr/rfrecpnz.wmv http://jeffareid.net/rfr/rfrec2005f1e.wmv

"jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gEeok.17770$[email hidden]...

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>>> Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just >>> as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late >>> this year or early next year before a trend is truly recognizable. > >> Subscription has nothing to do with it. There is a constamt influx of >> youth into the world and also older people who consider sim racing for >> the first time later in their life. When either group check out what's >> available, they will simply migrate to the best sim that offers what >> they're looking for. > > In my area, (USA), most of the youth that are playing games of any type > are either into console games, first person shooters, or role playing > games. > Simulation oriented racing games are a tiny market in the USA, so I don't > know how it is outside the USA, but currently, it seems that iRacing > servers will only be based in the USA, resulting in lag issues for players > from other countries. > > I just don't see that many people migrating to any racing sim these days, > as it's my opinion that the heydays of sim racing are gone. It was > moderately > popular from about 1999 to 2005 and since then interest has waned, for > multple reasons; player burn out, a much larger variety of games available > now, plus all the add-ons for these games splintering the player pool into > small groups. What's left is a dedicated core of racing sim players, and > I question if there are enough of them for iRacing's current business > model > to sustain it for more than about 3 years. >

So sim racing died shortly after Papyrus did - just a co-incidence? Just after the last sim (N2003) that made simming easy and simple?

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>> What so many of you are failing to understand also, is that iRacing is >> not just a sim - it's a service that offers much more than any sim in a >> box ever will. > > What is the advantage of a service versus a boxed or downloadable and > expandable game? The disadvantage is obvious, if the service goes away, so > does your game. This is the question that potential subscribers will be > asking. >

Well it seems that another thing you fail to understand is that iRacing is nothing without the surrounding service - and that's fine with me because without that I probably wouldn't give a stuff anyway. As far as I'm concerned, just making a sim without an accompanying service is no longer good enough. And i dont mean just a server either.

I think the pricing will drive some people away (no matter how many pizzas they do without :). The price can add up to way more than any racing sim cost previously and you have to keep paying to drive it. For fun, pick your favorite sim, and apply the iRacing cost structure (number of cars, tracks and how long you played it) and you'll be shocked at how much it would have cost. That's what your iRacing cost could turn out to be (give or take a pizza or so). Just a small example. After getting my D license I was enthused about buying the Skip Barber car and competing. Then I realized I had to buy not only the car, but 3 more tracks. Oh and about that time I had to send in another $20 for the next month (since I am still on monthly.) Don't get me wrong, I love what they are doing and I might really get sucked into it even with my price concerns, but the cost could really add up over time.

>> as it's my opinion that the heydays of sim racing are gone. It was moderately popular from about 1999 to 2005 and >> since then interest has waned > So sim racing died shortly after Papyrus did - just a co-incidence? Just after the last sim (N2003) that made simming > easy and simple? Not just sim racing, but also online racing in general. The first few nights (USA time) of the Need For Speed Underground 2 demo (October, 2004), there were 1000 players online. The actual game was released a month later. By the fall of 2005, there were less than 50 players online on the USA server, with around 100 on the European server. RD3 created an online spike in 2006, more so outside the USA, as internet and broadband where more abundant outside the USA by then, but it never came close to the number of online racing game players in early 2005. > Well it seems that another thing you fail to understand is that iRacing is nothing without the surrounding service - > and that's fine with me because without that I probably wouldn't give a stuff anyway. As far as I'm concerned, just > making a sim without an accompanying service is no longer good enough. And i dont mean just a server either. It wouldn't be nothing, it would be a great sim, and besides, the online play is independent of how it's paid for. There are many players that are happy to mostly play offline with an occasional venture online, but iRacing doesn't offer that option, yet. It's clear that iRacing's current format appeals to many racing sim players, but the issue here is if there will be enough of those players over a 3 year span do keep the current business model intact.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:16:19 -0400, Larry wrote: > Jeez, what a stretch, all in the name of using a word so hated in the > end-user software community. Nice Job! > He has a point, Larry. You cannot deny that while the GTR2 users (and possibly GTL as well, dunno) are fscked now regarding online racing. iRacing users / paying subscribers however will be truly fscked should JH ever decide to call it a day and spend his money on other projects. We will be left with nothing in this case, while GTR2 at least will provide offline enjoyment as long as the DVD lasts. All the best, Uwe --

> He has a point, Larry. You cannot deny that while the GTR2 users (and > possibly GTL as well, dunno) are fscked now regarding online > racing. iRacing users / paying subscribers however will be truly > fscked should JH ever decide to call it a day and spend his money on > other projects. We will be left with nothing in this case, while GTR2 > at least will provide offline enjoyment as long as the DVD lasts. This is a bit off topic, but why was there a trend to do away with the TCP-IP feature that the older racing games had? GPL and NR2003 had it, so did the older NFS games, High Stakes and Porsche Unleashed. Now if there's any alternative to online play, it's just LAN. Is it possible to come up with a "generic" LAN emulator that is really TCP-IP for these games?

Well now, ain't life one big risk... A sink hole could swallow up my house tomorrow and I'd be out a hell of a lot more than $13, plus a few paid-for cars and tracks. -Larry "hoover" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:48a2bc8b$0$11105$[email hidden]...

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> He has a point, Larry. You cannot deny that while the GTR2 users (and > possibly GTL as well, dunno) are fscked now regarding online > racing. iRacing users / paying subscribers however will be truly > fscked should JH ever decide to call it a day and spend his money on > other projects. We will be left with nothing in this case, while GTR2 > at least will provide offline enjoyment as long as the DVD lasts. > > All the best, Uwe > > > --

I call this the "EA Effect". Probablly the same reason EA doesn't use the XBOX Live servers for it's games (IMHO). If they let loose of control of the online servers, they would lose the ability to shut down a server thus forcing players to buy the next version. Or making the server so crappy, that people buy the next version out of sheer frustration. Anyone who has played Tiger Woods 2008 on the XBOX over the last year knows what this feels like. -Larry "jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:9kzok.11799$[email hidden]...

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> This is a bit off topic, but why was there a trend to do away with > the TCP-IP feature that the older racing games had? GPL and NR2003 > had it, so did the older NFS games, High Stakes and Porsche Unleashed. > Now if there's any alternative to online play, it's just LAN. Is it > possible to come up with a "generic" LAN emulator that is really > TCP-IP for these games? > >

[email hidden] (Andrew MacPherson) wrote in news:[email hidden]: > It's a brave attempt to break the simming mould, BS! It's a greedy attempt to cash in.

"jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:9kzok.11799$i15.1410 @newsfe01.iad:

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> > This is a bit off topic, but why was there a trend to do away with > the TCP-IP feature that the older racing games had? GPL and NR2003 > had it, so did the older NFS games, High Stakes and Porsche Unleashed. > Now if there's any alternative to online play, it's just LAN. Is it > possible to come up with a "generic" LAN emulator that is really > TCP-IP for these games? > >

Yea, download Hamachi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamachi

"rqk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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>I think the pricing will drive some people away (no matter how many pizzas >they do without :). > > The price can add up to way more than any racing sim cost previously and > you have to keep paying to drive it. For fun, pick your favorite sim, and > apply the iRacing cost structure (number of cars, tracks and how long you > played it) and you'll be shocked at how much it would have cost. That's > what your iRacing cost could turn out to be (give or take a pizza or so). > > Just a small example. After getting my D license I was enthused about > buying the Skip Barber car and competing. Then I realized I had to buy not > only the car, but 3 more tracks. Oh and about that time I had to send in > another $20 for the next month (since I am still on monthly.) > > Don't get me wrong, I love what they are doing and I might really get > sucked into it even with my price concerns, but the cost could really add > up over time.

When you say buying the Skip Barber car, you mean with real life currency?

Thre only included cars are the legend and solstice I believe as part of the monthly fee, the rest come at a one time additional cost, as will additional tracks. "Bob Loblaw" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:gHCok.5818$[email hidden]...

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> > "rqk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... >>I think the pricing will drive some people away (no matter how many pizzas >>they do without :). >> >> The price can add up to way more than any racing sim cost previously and >> you have to keep paying to drive it. For fun, pick your favorite sim, >> and apply the iRacing cost structure (number of cars, tracks and how long >> you played it) and you'll be shocked at how much it would have cost. >> That's what your iRacing cost could turn out to be (give or take a pizza >> or so). >> >> Just a small example. After getting my D license I was enthused about >> buying the Skip Barber car and competing. Then I realized I had to buy >> not only the car, but 3 more tracks. Oh and about that time I had to send >> in another $20 for the next month (since I am still on monthly.) >> >> Don't get me wrong, I love what they are doing and I might really get >> sucked into it even with my price concerns, but the cost could really add >> up over time. > > When you say buying the Skip Barber car, you mean with real life currency? >

On Aug 11, 11:01 pm, "jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the > money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program. > > Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just > as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late > this year or early next year before a trend is truly recognizable. > > For some older, long time racing players, iRacing may turn out > to be the last "fling" with spending a lot of time online. > > If iRacing were to cease being a subscription service and converted > into a purchaseable game, what would players be willing to pay for > it? > > The only previous subscription racing game I can recall was EA's > Motor City Online, which lasted almost 3 years (October 2001 to > August 2004). It was never released as an offline game. > > Another failed subscription game was URU Live, part of the Myst > series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the > works was eventually released as two games.

This is my theory on the whole Iracing plan. What is being offered now is just the basic, tip of the iceberg plan. Iracing is in with Rousch-Fenway racing. EA sports will lose the license for Nascar games. At that point Iracing (already with their foot in the door due to their currrent affiliations) will get control making it an online subscription service. Americans love their Na$car racing so what a perfect way to boost the number of subscribers and boost profits. There has not been a good Nascar game since N2K so why not return the license to the team who knows how to get it done. This time modern era online, pay as you go style. My two cents... DC

"mookytc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Aug 11, 11:01 pm, "jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote: > > This is my theory on the whole Iracing plan. > > What is being offered now is just the basic, tip of the iceberg plan. > Iracing is in with Rousch-Fenway racing. EA sports will lose the > license for Nascar games. At that point Iracing (already with their > foot in the door due to their currrent affiliations) will get control > making it an online subscription service. > > Americans love their Na$car racing so what a perfect way to boost the > number of subscribers and boost profits. There has not been a good > Nascar game since N2K so why not return the license to the team who > knows how to get it done. This time modern era online, pay as you go > style. > > My two cents... > > DC >

Sounds plausible. I think being the first and having their contacts and a continuous revenue stream will mean that they can keep producing content. I remember on my registration questionnaire they even asked if I liked motorcycle sims... As an aside, I have never fully understood Americans devotion to the oval circuit, maybe they don't understand why Europeans like going around windy circuits... I haven't done an oval yet in iRacing, but will try it at least once just to see what the fuss is about! RobP

On the Nascar thing? We can only hope :) -Larry "mookytc" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... On Aug 11, 11:01 pm, "jeffareid" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> My guess is about 3 years, although it could go longer if the > money guys are willing to keep plowing money into the program. > > Once the newness wears off, some players will lose interest, just > as with any game or activity. I think it will be sometime late > this year or early next year before a trend is truly recognizable. > > For some older, long time racing players, iRacing may turn out > to be the last "fling" with spending a lot of time online. > > If iRacing were to cease being a subscription service and converted > into a purchaseable game, what would players be willing to pay for > it? > > The only previous subscription racing game I can recall was EA's > Motor City Online, which lasted almost 3 years (October 2001 to > August 2004). It was never released as an offline game. > > Another failed subscription game was URU Live, part of the Myst > series. The online content of the time and some stuff in the > works was eventually released as two games.

This is my theory on the whole Iracing plan. What is being offered now is just the basic, tip of the iceberg plan. Iracing is in with Rousch-Fenway racing. EA sports will lose the license for Nascar games. At that point Iracing (already with their foot in the door due to their currrent affiliations) will get control making it an online subscription service. Americans love their Na$car racing so what a perfect way to boost the number of subscribers and boost profits. There has not been a good Nascar game since N2K so why not return the license to the team who knows how to get it done. This time modern era online, pay as you go style. My two cents... DC

City of Heroes has around 130K subscribers. Eve Online has around 70K subscribers. I have posted many times that for iRacing to be successful it is going to need numbers at least approaching Eve Online. After having played the game for almost a month, I don't see anything that has changed my mind. Also, while I really like the sim/game I have to admit I am most likely the development teams worst nightware. I love racing Legends cars on short oval tracks. Love it. It is like racing with a good bunch of NR2K3 players in a good fixed setup race. I will most likely not buy too many of the add-ons, or at least not until I am King of the Legends. Too many people like me and the numbers needed go up even more.

Bob Loblaw wrote: > When you say buying the Skip Barber car, you mean with real life currency? Well I wasn't figuring in the iRacing dollars, so yes I was thinking real money. You only get 2 cars and a few tracks, so everything else you want (or need for a series) has to be purchased extra as a one time charge.

"hoover" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:48a2bc8b$0$11105$[email hidden]...

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> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:16:19 -0400, Larry wrote: >> Jeez, what a stretch, all in the name of using a word so hated in the >> end-user software community. Nice Job! >> > > He has a point, Larry. You cannot deny that while the GTR2 users (and > possibly GTL as well, dunno) are fscked now regarding online > racing. iRacing users / paying subscribers however will be truly > fscked should JH ever decide to call it a day and spend his money on > other projects. We will be left with nothing in this case, while GTR2 > at least will provide offline enjoyment as long as the DVD lasts. > > All the best, Uwe > > > --

I would be pretty sure that if iRacing is successful that it will obviously become self sustaining and JH can take a hike for all anyone cares. And pardon the blasphemy but there may even come a time when DK himself can do likewise. Point being that anyone in the future will be able to take the reigns (ie buy) of this potentially immortal project and keep it going forever.

"rqk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> Bob Loblaw wrote: >> When you say buying the Skip Barber car, you mean with real life >> currency? > > Well I wasn't figuring in the iRacing dollars, so yes I was thinking real > money. You only get 2 cars and a few tracks, so everything else you want > (or need for a series) has to be purchased extra as a one time charge. >

How much are the Radical and the Skip Barber?

Ok, thanks. Having said that, what happens if (when) the web page vanishes ? "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:pPhok.12846$[email hidden]... > iRacing does not use activation. It does not need it. It is an ONLINEONLY

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> service. Everything is done via the web page. > > -Larry > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:emgok.729$[email hidden]... > > > > "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

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> > news:[email hidden]... > >> [email hidden] (hoover) wrote: > >> > >> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online > >> > eggs into one company's basket. > >> > >> It would be nice to think that if iRacing folded, the enthusiasts on

the > >> team would ensure their work didn't die with them. But given the > >> corporate nature of the company and backing, I suspect if they decidedto > >> shut the door they'd still want to sit very tight on the intellectual > >> property rights. So everyone would have to wave goodbye to their > >> investment in time and money. > >> > >> That's quite a risk really, and that in itself might make it morelikely

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> >> iRacing fails... a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. > >> > >> Andrew McP > > > > > > Not only that, but if I'm not mistaken, iracing requires online > > activation, etc. If so, good luck running the program you *paid* for, > > if/once the activation servers go down for good. > > > > Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll > > release > > a patch so that activation, etc. isn't required anymore" line will come > > out. > > In reality, that has yet to happen from all parties that have said it in > > the > > past. > > > > Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items. > > > > >

"David Fisher's Left Testicle" <dfg.myass@aol> wrote in message news:HMjok.68829$[email hidden]... > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:emgok.729$[email hidden]... > > > > "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote inmessage

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> > news:[email hidden]... > >> [email hidden] (hoover) wrote: > >> > >> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online > >> > eggs into one company's basket. > >> > >> It would be nice to think that if iRacing folded, the enthusiasts on

the > >> team would ensure their work didn't die with them. But given the > >> corporate nature of the company and backing, I suspect if they decidedto > >> shut the door they'd still want to sit very tight on the intellectual > >> property rights. So everyone would have to wave goodbye to their > >> investment in time and money. > >> > >> That's quite a risk really, and that in itself might make it morelikely

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> >> iRacing fails... a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. > >> > >> Andrew McP > > > > > > Not only that, but if I'm not mistaken, iracing requires online > > activation, etc. If so, good luck running the program you *paid* for, > > if/once the activation servers go down for good. > > It isn't 'paid' for! One pays to use (hire) it. It's a simple enough > concept.

You mean you didn't have to pay money to access the program ? <wink>

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> > > Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll > > release > > a patch so that activation, etc. isn't required anymore" line will come > > out. > > In reality, that has yet to happen from all parties that have said it in > > the > > past. > > So now you can see into the future.

Based on several examples from other companies in the past, yes. > > > Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items. > > Hmmm. >

But insurance would take care of your house <g> "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:wXAok.22130$[email hidden]... > Well now, ain't life one big risk... A sink hole could swallow up myhouse

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> tomorrow and I'd be out a hell of a lot more than $13, plus a few paid-for > cars and tracks. > > -Larry > > "hoover" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:48a2bc8b$0$11105$[email hidden]... > > > He has a point, Larry. You cannot deny that while the GTR2 users (and > > possibly GTL as well, dunno) are fscked now regarding online > > racing. iRacing users / paying subscribers however will be truly > > fscked should JH ever decide to call it a day and spend his money on > > other projects. We will be left with nothing in this case, while GTR2 > > at least will provide offline enjoyment as long as the DVD lasts. > > > > All the best, Uwe > > > > > > -- >

You fix your internet connection :) -Larry "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:7pPok.754$[email hidden]... > Ok, thanks. Having said that, what happens if (when) the web page > vanishes ?

hoover wrote: > He has a point, Larry. You cannot deny that while the GTR2 users (and > possibly GTL as well, dunno) are fscked now regarding online > racing. iRacing users / paying subscribers however will be truly > fscked should JH ever decide to call it a day and spend his money on > other projects. We will be left with nothing in this case, while GTR2 > at least will provide offline enjoyment as long as the DVD lasts. Though equally if my cable company pull the plug I won't be able to come on here and moan about how I can't play iRacing any more! I will have to go and source another internet service. If iRacing go awol I will have to find another internet racing service. Cheers Tony

Rob P wrote: > As an aside, I have never fully understood Americans devotion to the > oval circuit, maybe they don't understand why Europeans like going > around windy circuits... I haven't done an oval yet in iRacing, but will > try it at least once just to see what the fuss is about! I have complete two oval races in the Legends just to find out what they were like in iRacing. Somewhat remarkably with zero incidents and midfield finishes. They are incredibly intense at such a short track and continually amongst traffic. I can see why they become addictive. I had the ffb set a bit high in one race and I felt quite knackered come the end :) The tricky thing for a genuine rookie who really knows very little about short oval racing (I followed Mansell's progress in Indycars back in '93 and that is the extent of my oval track knowledge) is that it can feel a bit overwhelming as with the strong US contingent in iRacing everyone else seems to know what they are doing. I am less inclined to jump into races to see how I get on, so it would be good to coordinate joining practice sessions so that rookie europeans like me can jump in and get to grips with running in traffic and making moves without ruining other's races and SRs. Hopefully we can get that organised in the West Europe Club. Cheers Tony

Byron Forbes wrote: > And pardon the blasphemy but there may even come a time when DK > himself can do likewise. Please form an orderly queue for the stones, there are plenty to go around...

Andrew MacPherson wrote: > I think I agree with you on just about everything. I will be very > surprised -- no doubt pleasantly -- if iRacing survives in its current > form for more than a few years... It is quite intriquing I admit. The problem is it is hard to think outside of the traditional sim model. I really couldn't hazard a guess how iRacing will look in a few years. There has to be a very cunning plan. Too cunning even for the most cunning foxes of RAS... > When push comes to shove it is 'just another > sim' no matter how high their hopes of drawing in a wider audience, and > they don't exist in a sim vacuum. ah! You prove my point sir! I don't think it is modelled on hope but we shall see :) Cheers Tony

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:nsPok.756$[email hidden]: > But insurance would take care of your house <g> I don't think vicitms of hurricane Katrina would agree with you.

Bob Loblaw wrote: > How much are the Radical and the Skip Barber? They are both $15.00 each.

It would be working fine, but thanks :) "Larry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:JKVok.29184$[email hidden]...

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> You fix your internet connection :) > > -Larry > > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:7pPok.754$[email hidden]... > > Ok, thanks. Having said that, what happens if (when) the web page > > vanishes ? >

It would be working fine, but thanks :)

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> You fix your internet connection :) > -Larry > > Ok, thanks. Having said that, what happens if (when) the web page > > vanishes ?

[email hidden] (jeffareid) wrote: > My guess is about 3 years Yesterday, spurred on by learning about the Historix mod for rFactor, I took a fresh look at LFS and rFactor. And found both of them awful to drive. Disturbingly unsatisfying. Back to iRacing and my Skippy (still a slug off the line and in need of a new 1st gear to enable a little wheel spin) was a pleasure to drive. It's like GPL all over again, though that awful (ok, 'challenging') Solstice masks the fact that you're driving quite a revolutionary engine. Or am I just getting brainwashed? That'd be a shame, because the pound's sinking like a rock at the moment (probably due to excessive temporary enthusiasm for the dollar), which means iRacing is getting more expensive by the day. I could do with some level-headed rationality! Anyway, after my initial Skippy VIR races, where some truly awful driving by others marred my experience, I've had three races now in which close, careful racing at my end of the field has been present, and there have been fewer hot shots driving routinely beyond their limits. I suppose that's inevitable as the week wears on and more people find their feet on the track. Who knows what's going on in my head... brainwashing, assimilation, or just the slow, steady, reluctant realisation that this darned sim might be worth all the money and hassle after all? I've seen enough good racing now to imagine making it a routine part of my gaming life... which has been dwindling towards nothing over the last 12 months. It's nice to have something which is actually persuading me to turn on the games box down the desk which I built for Crysis (which I still haven't finished). I need to think about all this... or maybe just stop typing so I don't seem like such an idiot changing my mind every day? ;-) What I should probably do is give in to the dark side... buy a whole year's subscription (giving the maximum iRacing 'cashback' to spend on cars & tracks) and write it off as a hardware upgrade. After all, everything we buy for our PCs depreciates to just about nothing very quickly these days. If I just drive for a year, then give up, it'll be no worse than buying a decent graphics card and watching it fall in price. Mmm... except at the end of the year I still have a graphics card. :-) Andrew McP PS Of course none of this means iRacing, or my enjoyment, will last anything like 3 years. Perhaps it's simply a time to forget cynicism and do the carpe diem thing?

Andrew MacPherson wrote: > Anyway, after my initial Skippy VIR races, where some truly awful driving > by others marred my experience, I've had three races now in which close, > careful racing at my end of the field has been present, and there have > been fewer hot shots driving routinely beyond their limits. I suppose > that's inevitable as the week wears on and more people find their feet on > the track. It should be the ratings simply working for you. > Mmm... except at the end of the year I still have a graphics card. :-) That'll be worth loads... :) > PS Of course none of this means iRacing, or my enjoyment, will last > anything like 3 years. Perhaps it's simply a time to forget cynicism and > do the carpe diem thing? At this rate we will all chip in :) Cheers Tony

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:48:05 +0100, Tony R wrote: > Though equally if my cable company pull the plug I won't be able to come > on here and moan about how I can't play iRacing any more! I will have to > go and source another internet service. If iRacing go awol I will have > to find another internet racing service. True enough, still I was on about the *total* loss of accessibility in the case of iRacing, while GTR and "classic" simtitles would still at least provide some offline entertainment, not so with iRacing. I've heard the GTR2 lobby seems to be back up (run by simbin now), but I wouldn't hold my breath for a quick restoration of service when iRacing goes belly up ;-> (still I wish them all the best) Cheers, Uwe --

Andrew, If you are going to sign up for a year, make sure you do it before the 29th. 28th to be safe. There is a $15 bonus iRacing credit that's going to be applied to those accounts that have year-long subscriptions at that time :) Free car! -Larry "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] (jeffareid) wrote: > >> My guess is about 3 years > > Yesterday, spurred on by learning about the Historix mod for rFactor, I > took a fresh look at LFS and rFactor. And found both of them awful to > drive. Disturbingly unsatisfying. > > Back to iRacing and my Skippy (still a slug off the line and in need of a > new 1st gear to enable a little wheel spin) was a pleasure to drive. It's > like GPL all over again, though that awful (ok, 'challenging') Solstice > masks the fact that you're driving quite a revolutionary engine. > > Or am I just getting brainwashed? That'd be a shame, because the pound's > sinking like a rock at the moment (probably due to excessive temporary > enthusiasm for the dollar), which means iRacing is getting more expensive > by the day. I could do with some level-headed rationality! > > Anyway, after my initial Skippy VIR races, where some truly awful driving > by others marred my experience, I've had three races now in which close, > careful racing at my end of the field has been present, and there have > been fewer hot shots driving routinely beyond their limits. I suppose > that's inevitable as the week wears on and more people find their feet on > the track. > > Who knows what's going on in my head... brainwashing, assimilation, or > just the slow, steady, reluctant realisation that this darned sim might > be worth all the money and hassle after all? I've seen enough good racing > now to imagine making it a routine part of my gaming life... which has > been dwindling towards nothing over the last 12 months. It's nice to have > something which is actually persuading me to turn on the games box down > the desk which I built for Crysis (which I still haven't finished). > > I need to think about all this... or maybe just stop typing so I don't > seem like such an idiot changing my mind every day? ;-) > > What I should probably do is give in to the dark side... buy a whole > year's subscription (giving the maximum iRacing 'cashback' to spend on > cars & tracks) and write it off as a hardware upgrade. After all, > everything we buy for our PCs depreciates to just about nothing very > quickly these days. If I just drive for a year, then give up, it'll be no > worse than buying a decent graphics card and watching it fall in price. > > Mmm... except at the end of the year I still have a graphics card. :-) > > Andrew McP > > PS Of course none of this means iRacing, or my enjoyment, will last > anything like 3 years. Perhaps it's simply a time to forget cynicism and > do the carpe diem thing?

[email hidden] (Larry) wrote: > If you are going to sign up for a year, make sure you > do it before the 29th. My month runs out on the 31st anyway, so I have to decide before then. It'd be a good way of forcing me to drive, because I hate to waste money. :-) Before then though I have to work out whether it's two weeks of racing regularly (for the first time in years) which is causing renewed problems in my hands. I now remember it was a factor in why I stopped driving GPL regularly, and I think it's because I'm a pretty tense driver... I sometimes realise I'm hanging onto the wheel like it was stopping me drowning. So I need to work on relaxing my wheel technique as well as tightening my lap times. So I suspect this may nudge me into a buying a month at a time. Besides, the Skippy is the only car I intend to drive* (to stop me diluting my limited talent across too many tracks and cars), so a bulk discount for tracks & vehicles isn't top of my priority list. I also think there will need to be more aggressive discounts available later on. It's the yearly subs which should form the core of iRacing's business model (as it allows a degree of predictable income which the monthlies can't match in business terms), so they have every reason to actively promote it, especially if growth is as slow as we think it might be. Andrew McP *famous last words!

[email hidden] (Tony R) wrote: > That'll be worth loads... :) My 8800GTS is well over a year old and handles everything I throw at it (with a few compromises, obviously). It may not be worth much, but its value to me is still very high. All iRacing leaves you with is memories. :-) Andrew McP

"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] (Larry) wrote: > snip > Before then though I have to work out whether it's two weeks of racing > regularly (for the first time in years) which is causing renewed problems > in my hands. I now remember it was a factor in why I stopped driving GPL > regularly, and I think it's because I'm a pretty tense driver... I > sometimes realise I'm hanging onto the wheel like it was stopping me > drowning. So I need to work on relaxing my wheel technique as well as > tightening my lap times. So I suspect this may nudge me into a buying a > month at a time. > >snip > > Andrew McP > > *famous last words!

I used to have some numbness in my hands back when I used a Force feedback wheel. Had to turn the FF effects almost to nil. Changed to a non FF wheel over a year ago and I'm not getting the numbness anymore. I miss the information the FF gave me but retaining the feeling in my hands was a better deal :) Dave

[email hidden] (DavErb) wrote: > I used to have some numbness in my hands back when I > used a Force feedback wheel. My previous wheel had no FFB, and I have it dialled back in iRacing, so I'm pretty sure it's just the prolonged gripping, combined with twitching the paddle shift, which is the problem. I must experiment with my Momo's buttons instead of the paddles, but they're not ideally placed for routine use. At the moment th easiest two are mapped to view left & right, but a combination of the overhead mirror and wing mirrors on the Skippy make the view buttons fairly redundant. Andrew McP

"Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> [email hidden] (DavErb) wrote: > >> I used to have some numbness in my hands back when I >> used a Force feedback wheel. > > My previous wheel had no FFB, and I have it dialled back in iRacing, so > I'm pretty sure it's just the prolonged gripping, combined with twitching > the paddle shift, which is the problem. > > I must experiment with my Momo's buttons instead of the paddles, but > they're not ideally placed for routine use. At the moment th easiest two > are mapped to view left & right, but a combination of the overhead mirror > and wing mirrors on the Skippy make the view buttons fairly redundant. > > Andrew McP

I've been using a joystick for iRacing <hides>, though I do have a force feedback microsoft wheel and pedals. Is it worth going to a wheel? I know the last time I tried the wheel - a long time ago with GPL my lap times were considerably slower. I guess I should make this decision sooner rather than later, before I leave the ranks of the rookie. Btw How is the force feedback in iRacing? Worth making the switch for? RobP

[email hidden] (Rob P) wrote: > I've been using a joystick for iRacing <hides> I remember quite a few people staying with a stick for steering in GPL. Apparently it can give you an advantage because you can 'spin' through the full wheel range more quickly. I first raced GPL with a stick and it took quite a while to adapt to a wheel (especially as I've never driven in real life). Looking at my lap times, some would say I never have. :-) > Btw How is the force feedback in iRacing? I'm not a huge fan of it in any game to be honest... unless it's minimal I just find it distracting. But everyone seems to say iRacing's FFB is very good (once you've got it tweaked to your preferences). I also think FFB is a marketing device by manufacturers... what better for profits than building in a system of motors & gears which are bound to wear out long before the pots do? :-) Andrew McP

>> Btw How is the force feedback in iRacing? > > I'm not a huge fan of it in any game to be honest... unless it's minimal > I just find it distracting. Force feedback behaves as an assist in some games. In GTR and GTR2, the steering goes unrealistically light when the fronts are at the limit. In LFS, the force feedback tends to unrealistically point the tires in the direction of travel in the case of severe oversteer. The tendencies may be based on realisim, but are greatly exagerrated in these games.

Funny you should mention that. I've been racing a lot more recently, and I've noticed discomfort/weakness in my arms at the inner edges of the arms just in front of the elbow joint. It's actually getting pretty bad right now. I couldn't even lift a frying pan this morning. -Larry "DavErb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> I used to have some numbness in my hands back when I used a Force feedback > wheel. Had to turn the FF effects almost to nil. Changed to a non FF wheel > over a year ago and I'm not getting the numbness anymore. I miss the > information the FF gave me but retaining the feeling in my hands was a > better deal :) > > Dave >

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:MqPok.755$[email hidden]...

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> > "David Fisher's Left Testicle" <dfg.myass@aol> wrote in message > news:HMjok.68829$[email hidden]... >> >> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message >> news:emgok.729$[email hidden]... >> > >> > "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in > message >> > news:[email hidden]... >> >> [email hidden] (hoover) wrote: >> >> >> >> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online >> >> > eggs into one company's basket. >> >> >> >> It would be nice to think that if iRacing folded, the enthusiasts on > the >> >> team would ensure their work didn't die with them. But given the >> >> corporate nature of the company and backing, I suspect if they decided > to >> >> shut the door they'd still want to sit very tight on the intellectual >> >> property rights. So everyone would have to wave goodbye to their >> >> investment in time and money. >> >> >> >> That's quite a risk really, and that in itself might make it more > likely >> >> iRacing fails... a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. >> >> >> >> Andrew McP >> > >> > >> > Not only that, but if I'm not mistaken, iracing requires online >> > activation, etc. If so, good luck running the program you *paid* for, >> > if/once the activation servers go down for good. >> >> It isn't 'paid' for! One pays to use (hire) it. It's a simple enough >> concept. > > You mean you didn't have to pay money to access the program ? <wink>

You don't own it. It's hired. Simple concept.

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> > >> >> > Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll >> > release >> > a patch so that activation, etc. isn't required anymore" line will come >> > out. >> > In reality, that has yet to happen from all parties that have said it >> > in >> > the >> > past. >> >> So now you can see into the future. > > Based on several examples from other companies in the past, yes.

But iRacing is different. So you can't say 'when (not if)' in this context. All you are going is having a guess.

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> > >> >> > Hopefully I'm mistaken on whether iracing requires such items. >> >> Hmmm. >> > >

> >   You mean you didn't have to pay money to access the program ?  <wink> > > You don't own it. It's hired. Simple concept. Similar to most EULA's. :) They give you permission to use their software on your computer in the ways they specify.

> > You don't own it. It's hired. Simple concept. > Similar to most EULA's. They give you permission to use their > software on your computer in the ways they specify. A bit off topic, but ... In box EULAs are legally meaningless in some states of the USA, and in the few cases that come to court, they have a low rate of standing up in court. Merely opening a box, or clicking on some "accept" button during installation doesn't cut it in most courts. Real EULAs generally only exist with expensive corporate oriented software, viw written contracts which much be signed before software is delivered. In spite of what the EULA's state, software is purchased, not "rented", except in the case of online services like Motor City Online and now iRacing.

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>> I used to have some numbness in my hands back when I used a Force feedback wheel. Had to turn the FF effects almost >> to nil. Changed to a non FF wheel over a year ago and I'm not getting the numbness anymore. I miss the information >> the FF gave me but retaining the feeling in my hands was a better deal :) > I've been racing a lot more recently, and I've noticed discomfort/weakness in my arms at the inner edges of the arms > just in front of the elbow joint. It's actually getting pretty bad right now. I couldn't even lift a frying pan this > morning.

Which is part of the reason I use two light centering force joysticks for gaming, one for steering, the other for throttle / brake. Virtually no fatigue factor. I rest my elbow on the arms of the chair.

"David Fisher's Left Testicle" <dfg.myass@aol> wrote in message news:7eiqk.23296$[email hidden]...

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> > "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:MqPok.755$[email hidden]... > > > > "David Fisher's Left Testicle" <dfg.myass@aol> wrote in message > > news:HMjok.68829$[email hidden]... > >> > >> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > >> news:emgok.729$[email hidden]... > >> > > >> > "Andrew MacPherson" <[email hidden]> wrote in > > message > >> > news:[email hidden]... > >> >> [email hidden] (hoover) wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > shows again that it#s a bad idea to put all your online > >> >> > eggs into one company's basket. > >> >> > >> >> It would be nice to think that if iRacing folded, the enthusiasts on > > the > >> >> team would ensure their work didn't die with them. But given the > >> >> corporate nature of the company and backing, I suspect if they

decided > > to > >> >> shut the door they'd still want to sit very tight on theintellectual

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> >> >> property rights. So everyone would have to wave goodbye to their > >> >> investment in time and money. > >> >> > >> >> That's quite a risk really, and that in itself might make it more > > likely > >> >> iRacing fails... a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. > >> >> > >> >> Andrew McP > >> > > >> > > >> > Not only that, but if I'm not mistaken, iracing requires online > >> > activation, etc. If so, good luck running the program you *paid*

for,

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> >> > if/once the activation servers go down for good. > >> > >> It isn't 'paid' for! One pays to use (hire) it. It's a simple enough > >> concept. > > > > You mean you didn't have to pay money to access the program ? <wink> > > You don't own it. It's hired. Simple concept.

Whoosh............backspace, Richie Rich, or whatever other moniker you're using this month. > > > > > >> > >> > Of course, when (not if) this happens, the usual "we promise we'll > >> > release > >> > a patch so that activation, etc. isn't required anymore" line willcome

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> >> > out. > >> > In reality, that has yet to happen from all parties that have said it > >> > in > >> > the > >> > past. > >> > >> So now you can see into the future. > > > > Based on several examples from other companies in the past, yes. > > But iRacing is different. So you can't say 'when (not if)' in this

context. > All you are going is having a guess. Lol, thats what is said everytime this type of thing comes up.

"JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:dKGqk.893$[email hidden]: > Whoosh............backspace, Richie Rich, or whatever other moniker > you're using this month. Wow, you really need to learn how to snip the posts you are replying to. You had almost everyone in this thread quoted, except me, moron.

"Maat" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:ZSXsk.220259$gc5.36861@pd7urf2no...

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> "JP" <[email hidden]> wrote in > news:dKGqk.893$[email hidden]: > > > Whoosh............backspace, Richie Rich, or whatever other moniker > > you're using this month. > > Wow, you really need to learn how to snip the posts you are replying to. > You had almost everyone in this thread quoted, except me, moron.

Hiya Backspace ! Love the new nick.