GPL ... Why is it so popular?

The first time that I tried GPL, I, like a lot of others just about deleted it from the hard drive. I thought that it was the worst piece of Software ever written. After a few months I heard a lot of the hype about it, and decided to give it another try. The rest as they say is history. I used to think back then that the reason GPL was so good, was because the physics felt so realistic. I have just lately changed my mind. In fact, I now feel that if the real GP cars of 67 had the same handling as the GPL cars, then at least one driver would probably have died at every GP, instead of one driver every 6 or so GPs :-). I don't know how many times I died, impaled by a branch, 10 feet above the ground, in a Tree at France. I now think that the reason I found it so good was because it was very difficult to drive those cars, and therefore very satisfying, when I got it right. Mastering the GPL slide, keeping a good line but also maximising the grip using the throttle, was a real art form in itself. It reminded me of what Graham Hill I think once said, Something like "the track is my canvas and the car is my brush." I came to this conclusion after trying out Toca Race Driver 2, which is marketed as V8 Supercars 2 in Australia. IMHO The Graphics are very good, but the physics in Simulator mode are extremely unrealistic. Too much grip, brakes too good etc. The Pro Sim physics are just way over the top in the other direction. The car handles like a Hovercraft. and that is probably being kind to it. I found that the car is near impossible to drive in Pro Sim Mode. I asked myself why this wasn't appealing, as GPL too was very hard to drive, and yet people love it. I think that it must be because I just know that driving a real V8 Supercar could not possibly be like driving this Sim in Pro mode. Back when GPL was born, most people that I knew that tried GPL thought that a real 67 GP car would really handle like that. So everybody kept trying to master driving GPL. And Yes, it was very satisfying, when you got it right. Even Kaemmer himself, has said that he didn't get GPL right. Esp the grip..! But who cares? We still had heaps of Fun with it. It has become a Legend. I realise that most people hate it, but I have had a heap of fun with V8 Supercars 2 in Simulator mode. Even though the physics in Simulator mode are way out, and I know it, there are still a heap of things about it that they have got pretty right, eg the Online points, people get penalised for leaving a race early. I came second in a race at Bathurst, and got 14 points, against the driver that was first who got 5 points because he bounced off walls all the way around the track. Good drivers are rewarded. It's Online performance is pretty good as well. Just Try racing at Bathurst at around 1.46 It is real adrenaline pumping stuff. Mt Panorama at Bathurst is one of the most challenging tracks that I have ever raced on. Yes I too would love to have the Perfect Sim. But at the moment I don't think that it exists. Until then I will just have the most fun that I can with the imperfect ones :-) Darf

Snore. Alanb

Alan Bernardo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0PZ5d.269768$mD.269131@attbi_s02... > Snore. > > > Alanb lol > >

"Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<41585796$0$20126$[email hidden]>...

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> The first time that I tried GPL, I, like a lot of others just about deleted > it from the hard drive. I thought that it was the worst piece of Software > ever written. After a few months I heard a lot of the hype about it, and > decided to give it another try. The rest as they say is history. > I used to think back then that the reason GPL was so good, was because the > physics felt so realistic. I have just lately changed my mind. In fact, I > now feel that if the real GP cars of 67 had the same handling as the GPL > cars, then at least one driver would probably have died at every GP, instead > of one driver every 6 or so GPs :-). > I don't know how many times I died, impaled by a branch, 10 feet above the > ground, in a Tree at France. > I now think that the reason I found it so good was because it was very > difficult to drive those cars, and therefore very satisfying, when I got it > right. Mastering the GPL slide, keeping a good line but also maximising the > grip using the throttle, was a real art form in itself. It reminded me of > what Graham Hill I think once said, Something like "the track is my canvas > and the car is my brush." > > I came to this conclusion after trying out Toca Race Driver 2, which is > marketed as V8 Supercars 2 in Australia. > IMHO The Graphics are very good, but the physics in Simulator mode are > extremely unrealistic. Too much grip, brakes too good etc. > The Pro Sim physics are just way over the top in the other direction. The > car handles like a Hovercraft. and that is probably being kind to it. I > found that the car is near impossible to drive in Pro Sim Mode. > I asked myself why this wasn't appealing, as GPL too was very hard to drive, > and yet people love it. I think that it must be because I just know that > driving a real V8 Supercar could not possibly be like driving this Sim in > Pro mode. > Back when GPL was born, most people that I knew that tried GPL thought that > a real 67 GP car would really handle like that. So everybody kept trying to > master driving GPL. And Yes, it was very satisfying, when you got it right. > Even Kaemmer himself, has said that he didn't get GPL right. Esp the grip..! > But who cares? We still had heaps of Fun with it. It has become a Legend. > > I realise that most people hate it, but I have had a heap of fun with V8 > Supercars 2 in Simulator mode. Even though the physics in Simulator mode are > way out, and I know it, there are still a heap of things about it that they > have got pretty right, eg the Online points, people get penalised for > leaving a race early. I came second in a race at Bathurst, and got 14 > points, against the driver that was first who got 5 points because he > bounced off walls all the way around the track. Good drivers are rewarded. > It's Online performance is pretty good as well. > Just Try racing at Bathurst at around 1.46 It is real adrenaline pumping > stuff. Mt Panorama at Bathurst is one of the most challenging tracks that I > have ever raced on. > > Yes I too would love to have the Perfect Sim. But at the moment I don't > think that it exists. Until then I will just have the most fun that I can > with the imperfect ones :-) > > Darf

I'm in total agreement with you about V8 Supercars 2, Codemasters really got just about everything right. It's perhaps the greatest Racing sim ever made.

"JP" wrote... >> <snip> The usual comments from the "don't get it"-crowd. Jan. =---

"Darf" wrote... > <Snip> > Yes I too would love to have the Perfect Sim. But at the moment > I don't think that it exists. Until then I will just have the > most fun that I can with the imperfect ones :-) There never will be. Even full motion simulators have their limtations when it comes to simulating race conditions. I agree in as far as enjoying every title for what it is, however, I do have reservations about certain claims made by developers, especially Codemasters. I don't like the word "sim" associated with any of their racing games. Jan. =---

Jan Verschueren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Aj16d.259217$[email hidden]... > "JP" wrote... > >> <snip> > > The usual comments from the "don't get it"-crowd. > > Jan. Whoosh........right over your head......as usual.

"Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Aj16d.259217$[email hidden]...

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> "JP" wrote... >>> <snip> > > The usual comments from the "don't get it"-crowd. > > Jan. > =--- > >

Oh, I get it all right. The question has just been considered over and over, since man realized time governs life. That may be slight hyperbole, but you get the idea, hopefully. Alanb

I don't expect to have a sim which is 100% realistic. I'd like a sim which is around 95-98% realistic though. TRD2 even in pro-simulation mode sits at around 60% realism as a rough estimate. 1:46 at Bathurst? Cars getting airborne at totally inappropriate places? That pretty much says it all. Have you tried the GTR demo? It's streets ahead of TRD2 in the realism department. GPL's tire model might be a bit lacking by today's standards but it still has most of the fundamentals of driving a real 67 car pretty well simulated. I reckon playing GPL is very beneficial for someone wanting to step into a real racecar. I can't say the same for TRD2 which is more likely to teach you bad habits than most other respected sims.

"Alan Bernardo" wrote... >> <snip> > Oh, I get it all right. The question has just been <snip> Just taking a pot shot to show cronk how it's done, Alan... <g> Jan. =---

"Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>... > I don't expect to have a sim which is 100% realistic. I'd like a sim > which > is around 95-98% realistic though. TRD2 even in pro-simulation mode sitsat > around 60% realism as a rough estimate. My Estimate would be about 30% My Estimate for GPL would be about 80% IMHO >1:46 at Bathurst? Cars getting > airborne at totally inappropriate places? That pretty much says it all. As I said it is not what I would call a Sim but it IS fun :-)

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> > Have you tried the GTR demo? It's streets ahead of TRD2 in the > realism > department.

No I haven't but I will check it out > GPL's tire model might be a bit lacking by today's standards but it > still > has most of the fundamentals of driving a real 67 car pretty wellsimulated. > I reckon playing GPL is very beneficial for someone wanting to step into a > real racecar. I can't say the same for TRD2 which is more likely to teach > you bad habits than most other respected sims. You may have a point, my Business partner races Supercarts, And has said that any game/sim including GPL teaches him bad habits that he has to unlearn when he hops behind the wheel of a real race vehicle. My "perfect sim" with today's technology would probably have the Nascar type engine, including it's 30 car online abilities but with F1 or the old Indycar Tracks with Modern F1 and Champ cars available. It would also include most of the ideas used in the online concept of TRD2 / V8 Supercars 2. ie the rating systems, rewarding good driving etc. Darf

I probably used the word Sim too loosely in regards to TRD2. By perfect sim I meant MY perfect sim, not a sim that IS perfect. I agree with you that a perfect sim will probably never exist, with a possible exception to GPL 3002 on the Halodeck of the enterprise :-) Darf "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Qq16d.259219$[email hidden]...

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> "Darf" wrote... > > <Snip> > > Yes I too would love to have the Perfect Sim. But at the moment > > I don't think that it exists. Until then I will just have the > > most fun that I can with the imperfect ones :-) > > There never will be. Even full motion simulators have their limtations

when > it comes to simulating race conditions. > > I agree in as far as enjoying every title for what it is, however, I dohave > reservations about certain claims made by developers, especially > Codemasters. I don't like the word "sim" associated with any of theirracing > games. > > Jan. > =--- > >

Itd be interesting to hear what bad habits he's picking up. first time i hopped behind the wheel of a single seater i was amazed at how comfortable i felt following a few years of gpl. nice to have less power and more grip in real life though :) pez "Darf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:41596490$0$23893$[email hidden]...

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> "Steve Simpson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:<[email hidden]>... > > > I don't expect to have a sim which is 100% realistic. I'd like a sim > > > which > > > is around 95-98% realistic though. TRD2 even in pro-simulation mode sits > at > > > around 60% realism as a rough estimate. > > My Estimate would be about 30% > > My Estimate for GPL would be about 80% IMHO > > >1:46 at Bathurst? Cars getting > > > airborne at totally inappropriate places? That pretty much says it all. > > As I said it is not what I would call a Sim but it IS fun :-) > > > > > > Have you tried the GTR demo? It's streets ahead of TRD2 in the > > > realism > > > department. > > No I haven't but I will check it out > > > > GPL's tire model might be a bit lacking by today's standards but it > > > still > > > has most of the fundamentals of driving a real 67 car pretty well > simulated. > > > I reckon playing GPL is very beneficial for someone wanting to step into

a > > > real racecar. I can't say the same for TRD2 which is more likely toteach

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> > > you bad habits than most other respected sims. > > > You may have a point, my Business partner races Supercarts, > > And has said that any game/sim including GPL teaches him bad habits that

he > has to unlearn when he hops behind the wheel of a real race vehicle. > > My "perfect sim" with today's technology would probably have the Nascartype > engine, including it's 30 car online abilities but with F1 or the old > Indycar Tracks with Modern F1 and Champ cars available. It would also > include most of the ideas used in the online concept of TRD2 / V8Supercars

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> 2. ie the rating systems, rewarding good driving etc. > > > > Darf > >

Pez wrote:

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> Itd be interesting to hear what bad habits he's picking up. > > first time i hopped behind the wheel of a single seater i was amazed at how > comfortable i felt following a few years of gpl. > > nice to have less power and more grip in real life though :) > > pez

But did it drive EXACTLY like the game? Close, but not quite. Someone here once said it better than I ever could - you have to learn to drive each sim's physics model and adapt to the flaws. Unfortunately, that might teach you a couple of tricks that only work _in_that_game and no other sims and don't work in real life. (I use Need For Speed for example - not a lot of that game teaches you proper driving lines or anything other than speed=fun.) No sim is perfect, and most people (even racers) wouldn't want to have to go the last step for realism. Examples: Pause buttons. Real races don't have pauses. Save/load. "Restart" if you crash. Heat and confinement for the driver. I sweated off 7 pounds and got bruises on my shoulders this summer while racing. I'm not doing that playing a video game. When I'm strapped in my Camaro, I can't see my feet or barely turn my head. My buddy's Formula V - he's basically lying down on the floor when he's racing... Money & Fear of death - you can do a lot of stupid things in a video game that'll be "hero or zero" moves - but you shouldn't do in a real race (unless you're Robby Gordon, then you can do a lot of stupid things in a real race car.) I've found sim race cars are a LOT more durable than real race cars. In F1 racing, contact = broken. In dirt racing, contact=black flag. After all that whining, I'd say that playing driving games CAN help you in a real race car - If you play driving games that mimic real life (GPL vs Need for Speed) and use it to learn HOW to drive faster... (Drive to Win, Physics of Racing, and many other books and driving schools.) Ray

I agree totally. All Sims have flaws in the Model that can be exploited. That is why, once the flaws are found, they can usually be used to the players advantage to gain a better time than is possible on the real track. One thing that Sims can do is get the player roughly used to the track and its layout. We all know that a lot of Real race drivers use a Sim to prepare for a track that they have never raced on in real life. When they arrive at the real track, they are pretty much on the money. Adjustments still need to be made by the driver to allow for mistakes in the Sim. My Business partner over-ran a corner at Philip Island in real life because the Sim showed the straight as being longer than the real track. He also told me that the force of side winds at Philip Island can really throw the Cart around. Most Sims don't even model wind. I also agree that most real drivers would never risk trying a lot of the crazy things that we do when we are driving a virtual car, due to fear of death. Unfortunately Ctrl Alt Delete won't bring Senna back. Pity. Darf

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> But did it drive EXACTLY like the game? Close, but not quite. > > Someone here once said it better than I ever could - you have to learn > to drive each sim's physics model and adapt to the flaws. > Unfortunately, that might teach you a couple of tricks that only work > _in_that_game and no other sims and don't work in real life. (I use > Need For Speed for example - not a lot of that game teaches you proper > driving lines or anything other than speed=fun.) > > No sim is perfect, and most people (even racers) wouldn't want to have > to go the last step for realism. > > Examples: > Pause buttons. Real races don't have pauses. > Save/load. > "Restart" if you crash. > Heat and confinement for the driver. I sweated off 7 pounds and got > bruises on my shoulders this summer while racing. I'm not doing that > playing a video game. When I'm strapped in my Camaro, I can't see my > feet or barely turn my head. My buddy's Formula V - he's basically > lying down on the floor when he's racing... > Money & Fear of death - you can do a lot of stupid things in a video > game that'll be "hero or zero" moves - but you shouldn't do in a real > race (unless you're Robby Gordon, then you can do a lot of stupid things > in a real race car.) > > I've found sim race cars are a LOT more durable than real race cars. In > F1 racing, contact = broken. In dirt racing, contact=black flag. > > After all that whining, I'd say that playing driving games CAN help you > in a real race car - If you play driving games that mimic real life (GPL > vs Need for Speed) and use it to learn HOW to drive faster... (Drive to > Win, Physics of Racing, and many other books and driving schools.) > > Ray

"Pez" wrote: > first time i hopped behind the wheel of a single seater i was amazed athow > comfortable i felt following a few years of gpl. Having sat in a few sports saloons, hopping into a single seater presented me with a "GPL induced" problem - the clutch! I had no difficulty jumping from a standard car into an Imprezza, Accord Type-R, Westfield and Elise as these felt like cars. The single seater felt like GPL and my brain had to adjust to not using two pedals and left foot braking. I literally had to tell myself to use the clutch in a vehicle (for the first time since my first day in a car!). Even jumping from autos to manuals I have never experienced this. However, this had nothing to do with the physics but just the sensation of sitting in a single seater. Clearly the physics of the single seater were a bit off as I managed a top gear spin which I'm sure I would have caught in GPL :) Cheers Tony

"ray" wrote... >> <snip> > But did it drive EXACTLY like the game? Close, but not > quite. The physical experience is different, the concentration required is the same and techniques involved should be. > Someone here once said it better than I ever could - you > have to learn to drive each sim's physics model and adapt > to the flaws. Unfortunately, that might teach you a couple of tricks > that only work _in_that_game and no other sims and don't > work in real life. <snip> Eh no, you only need to learn to exploit the flaws if you want to have your name on top of the time sheets. I use what I think are pretty realistic (as realistic as possible/drivable in the sim) setup and driving techniques and I find I don't have to adjust those when moving from sim to sim (except for RBR, as rallying requires a different driving technique). Note I restrict the word sim to mean "racing games where such an approach is possible/competitive".

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> No sim is perfect, and most people (even racers) wouldn't > want to have to go the last step for realism. > > Examples: > <snip> > Money & Fear of death - you can do a lot of stupid > things in a video game that'll be "hero or zero" > moves - but you shouldn't do in a real race <snip>

I hate it when people get up to that kind of stuff in online races. Trying to make it "better" or "more heroic" than real life. I'll quote myself from 6 or so years back: "It's a SIM, it's not supposed to be fun!!" > I've found sim race cars are a LOT more durable than > real race cars. In F1 racing, contact = broken. In > dirt racing, contact=black flag. Correct, GPL's cars were seriously beefed up between the beta I managed to get my hands on and the release version. > After all that whining, I'd say that playing driving > games CAN help you in a real race car - If you play > driving games that mimic real life (GPL vs Need for > Speed) and use it to learn HOW to drive faster... (Drive to Win, Physics > of Racing, and many other > books and driving schools.) Yup, all recommended reading and, you're right, it should be viewed as a learning tool. You can rack up a lot of race mileage and experience without spending much at all. Jan. =---

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:00:50 GMT, "Jan Verschueren" <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>> I've found sim race cars are a LOT more durable than >> real race cars. In F1 racing, contact = broken. In >> dirt racing, contact=black flag. > >Correct, GPL's cars were seriously beefed up between the beta I managed to >get my hands on and the release version. >

I remember driving (in a moderate damage race) at Rouen, had a spin and hit a tree HARD on the side of the fuselage (didn't touch the tires tho). When I came to a stop, just got back on the track and won the race. It is my understanding that you can mess up the suspension something awful, but the fuselage is like the kind of armored bathtub you might find in an A-10 Warthog... John DiFool

> leaving a race early. I came second in a race at Bathurst, and got 14 > points, against the driver that was first who got 5 points because he > bounced off walls all the way around the track. Good drivers are rewarded. > It's Online performance is pretty good as well. Now youre misinforming. In TRD2 players do not get penalized for bouncing walls etc. The reason why the winner got only 5 points compared to your second place with 14 points is the relativity of skills. The winner had much higher online ranking than you and he does not get rewarded greatly when playing against lesser ranked players. In fact, he would have gone negative with the second place. If you have ever played the game of chess you will notice that the whole ranking system in TRD2 is copied from there without any changes. The online performance is really good, and so are some vehicle physics (ie. formula fords). Way better than any Codemasters product since the first CMR and TOCA2. Gpl is the daddy, LM

"John DiFool" wrote...

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>> <snip> > > I remember driving (in a moderate damage race) at > Rouen, had a spin and hit a tree HARD on the side > of the fuselage (didn't touch the tires tho). > When I came to a stop, just got back on the track > and won the race. It is my understanding that > you can mess up the suspension something awful, > but the fuselage is like the kind of armored > bathtub you might find in an A-10 Warthog...

The tub in GPL is indeed unbendable/breakable, but frontal hits will damage the cooling system and can thus lead to engine failure. I was indeed talking about suspension damage... in the beta, e.g., hitting the curbs and taking the chicane flat out at Monaco would eventually result in quite severe suspension damage on the Realistic setting. With the release version one can now do that for an entire GP and get away with it. Not that I mind, mind. It's hard enough as it is not to kiss a wall or a bit of armco in a 100 lap race. Jan. =---

Must have just been coincidence that most of the higher rated players that I have been up against tended to bounce off walls. I just assumed that this was the reason for the difference in points. In that case I still think it would be a good idea to incorporate car abuse into the rating system. > The online performance is really good, and so are some vehicle physics > (ie. formula fords). Way better than any Codemasters product since the > first CMR and TOCA2. Wouldn't it be great if we could take all of the best "Modules" of every good Sim and make one huge "Super Sim". GPLF1CICR2RBRLFSTRD2 Maybe? :-) Lets see who can work that one out. Darf "Leo Merikallio" wrote

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> Now youre misinforming. In TRD2 players do not get penalized for > bouncing walls etc. The reason why the winner got only 5 points > compared to your second place with 14 points is the relativity of > skills. The winner had much higher online ranking than you and he does > not get rewarded greatly when playing against lesser ranked players. > In fact, he would have gone negative with the second place. > > If you have ever played the game of chess you will notice that the > whole ranking system in TRD2 is copied from there without any changes. > > The online performance is really good, and so are some vehicle physics > (ie. formula fords). Way better than any Codemasters product since the > first CMR and TOCA2. > > Gpl is the daddy, > LM

> Must have just been coincidence that most of the higher rated players that I > have been up against tended to bounce off walls. I just assumed that this > was the reason for the difference in points. In that case I still think it > would be a good idea to incorporate car abuse into the rating system. Yes it would be nice if the car abuse factor would be in the ranking. The city tracks in TRD2 are too railrider friendly and thats the reason I dont play ranked races on those tracks. They just collect the arcade racers together. Sadly large majority of players online prefer the arcade mode over the pro-sim and Ill bet that the same group likes to bounce around with a car that is made out of kryptonite.

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> Wouldn't it be great if we could take all of the best "Modules" of every > good Sim and make one huge "Super Sim". > > GPLF1CICR2RBRLFSTRD2 Maybe? :-) > Lets see who can work that one out. > > Darf

I have heard that the new ISI's tire model module (6.99$) is out. Papys G-force pack is quite good but requires more cpu power than the Bugbears Forcepack. If youre using the Menumodule form LFS team I can vouch for the West Brothers awesome team transporter menu background render pack which is out by the christmas (comes in a leatherish case)! btw I cant believe most leagues still run with the old Ubisoft trackmodule system.

"Leo Merikallio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... > Sadly large majority of players online prefer the arcade mode over the > pro-sim and Ill bet that the same group likes to bounce around with a > car that is made out of kryptonite. Problem is the Sim mode is too arcadeish but the Pro Sim is too far over the top in the other direction, I have found it totally unrealistic, and near impossible to drive. Adjusting the Suspension seems to do little to fix the situation. It feels like driving a Hovercraft. It needs to be somewhere in the middle. Darf